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    Gooner for Life frezKo's Avatar
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    Post What do you think about my argument against abortion? (pro-life) (LONGGGG)

    I am here posting my thoughts on the topic and want opinions and criticism to how to strength or add logic to my thought process:


    The entire argument about abortion isn’t about limiting a women’s choice but a moral one. I support pro-life but have a solution that can meet a middle ground but the solution won’t satisfy all parties but is based on logic and reason:

    1.) The main issue I have with abortion is that it is immoral. An abortion is killing an unborn baby. When a women goes through an abortion, one of the papers she signs before going through with the procedure clearly states: “You are taking away a human life”. There have been lawsuits when abortion was first implemented because women didn’t know anything about abortions and were ignorant to the fact that it was actually a human live. Surgeons legit have to make women sign dozens of paper forms in order to perform the operation. This clearly signifies (and backed by science) that an abortion (regardless when it is terminated) is taking away and killing a human life.

    2.) I don’t think anyone will argue this point but human life starts at inception. By the time a baby is 8-10 weeks (which is when the majority of abortions are performed) the baby is a size of a fist and can feel pain. Kill or hurting this is IMMORAL.

    3.) Who has a right to argue this point: The argument that abortion should be decided by women because it’s their body is the most hypocritical argument I’ve ever heard in politics. If I see a cat being killed in a women’s back yard do I not have the right to stop her from killing her cat? Females in wars and in the army, navy, etc only account for 1.1-1.8% of all deaths in for the US. It is substantially less for other country’s armies where women are not allowed to join. Because War has had more men die and sacrifice their lives for our freedom should we discount the opinions of women about overseas issues? The point that I am trying to make is that regardless of who’s body the human life is in or what sex you are, you have the right to speak up to an immoral issue. This isn’t about women vs men but whats moral vs immoral. Bringing up sex is playing identity politics and trying to discounts someone’s logical points because they are male.

    Another fun fact, According to recent stats (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ice-by-gender/), in 2019, 961 males were shot and killed by cops, but yet only 43 women were shot and killed by cops. Women make up over 50% of the US population but yet, men make up 95.71% of those killed by police. Talk about being disproportionately targeted and killed. Should women’s opinions on police brutality and police reform be discounted because men are disproportionately effect by police? Of course not. They have a right to an opinion based on what is moral. The same can be said for prisoners. The majority of prisoners are men (90% of all prisoners are men) should women’s opinion on prison reform, arrests, crime, etc be discounted because men are more effect? No. Everyone has an opinion to what is right and wrong.


    4.) Hypocritical points from liberals: One of the most amusing topics of abortion is the hypocritical points that liberals tend to argue for abortion. One being is that they are for illegal immigrants to stay in the country because they are human and they voice should be heard in congress and the US and have the rights to healthcare, etc. Well if illegal immigrants have a right to this country should unborn babies have a right as well? Especially a right to live? One of the main arguments for implementing and giving same sex marriage a right is that they are human and should have the right to have happiness and marriage just like anyone else. Should unborn babies have the right to a life? Yes.

    5.) Fallacies of the arguments for abortions: One of the main arguments for abortions are babies from rapes. Although a women might not want to birth the baby of a rapist, the % of abortions from rapes are less than 0.5%. (https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/u...on_statistics/). The only logical argument for abortions are 3 points:

    a. Rape victims (0.5% of all abortions)
    b. Health/fetal problems (7.0% of all abortions)

    Why are these the two arguments that liberals bring up for abortion when they account for such a small minority of abortions? 92.5% of all other abortions are done because of excuses and irresponsibility of women. It’s absolutely hypocritical how the democrats ran an entire campaign for Hilary stating that we should elect her because she’s a women when in reality we are giving women a free get out of jail card. If I decide to drive a car and I accidently kill someone driving it I have to take responsibility and will most likely be charged with manslaughter. Every person has a responsibility to themselves and society to be moral and just. And if women need a free abortion card to kill an unborn baby to be ‘responsible’ then maybe women don’t deserve to hold positions of more responsibility.

    6.) The “We’ll if abortions are illegal than there will be more unwanted babies in adoption” counter argument. If there is a bridge that I take to work every single day and one day is collapses or is removed for construction, will I blindly drive off the bridge to my death? No. I will take an alternate route. Abortion in today’s society has been brainwashed and liberals have used rhetoric to argue that it is healthcare and just another tool in preventing babies such as condoms, plan b, and waiting till marriage. Abortion was never a tool for women to be used in the free market. It was initially supposed to only be a tool that was implemented for very rare cases like rape or when the women’s life was in danger due to health problems.

    Condons have a 99% success rate and waiting till marriage has a 100% success rate. If you choose to have sex that is a risk that you are undertaking just like when I am driving my car (not drunk). When Police officers slip up one time and shoot an unarmed black man accidentally they have to (theoretically) bare the price and risk their decision in the heat of the moment.


    Conclusion: When we talk about that is MORAL, pro-life is the only logical argument. But obviously there are instances where rape does occur and the life of the carrier could be in danger if she goes through with the abortion. (Note these are the only logical arguments for pro-choice) and I am willing to bend my beliefs and make it legal for abortions to occur under these RARE circumstances. But for the other 93%+ of abortions that occur are because of the rhetoric that has been used to brainwash people into thinking abortion is a logical tool. It is not right to kill an unborn baby which has a right to live and no doesn’t deserve death and the pain that is bears.









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    Only dreams now ZMAg's Avatar
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    Y tho
    "I'm not going to be jerked around by some chick who thinks her pussy is going to magically override my sense of self-respect. I'm not a phucking performing seal, I'm not going to do tricks to get a mouthful of fish."

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    Gooner for Life frezKo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZMAg View Post
    Y tho
    Buddies and I like to have political discussions on varies issues for fun to try and exchange ideas and find a common ground. We think it's absurd how society treats politics with emotions rather than reason, morals or logic.

    Once a couple months we go to a bar and for an hour or two we have discussions on topics such as socialism (lol, i actually was able to convince it's a bad idea), healthcare, articles, books, etc. This week's topic is abortion. So I thought I'd get some freed back from some fellow high IQ miuscer's.
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    Registered User Dirtybiscuit's Avatar
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    Abortions and Planned Parenthood were created because Black Lives Don't Matter.

    "She (Margaret Sanger) was supported by one of the most racist authors in America in the 1920s, the Klansman[124][125] Lothrop Stoddard, who was a founding member of the Board of Directors of Sanger's American Birth Control League" (now Planned Parenthood).

    Cancel PP and abortions now!
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    Made It Ausaric's Avatar
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    The abortion argument is ridiculous.

    “My body my choice”. The life you’re ending isn’t YOUR body at some point. When does that point occur?

    Conception? Upon development of the nervous system? Upon viability outside the womb? Upon birth? After birth?
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    Registered User Hella Toof's Avatar
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    I love they say abortion is a woman's "right". You have the "right" to kill your unborn child. Liberals sure are tricky and deliberate with their choice of language. Why would you need to use such manipulation techniques if what you were doing was right and just and could stand up to scrutiny. And if you are against abortion you are sexist. Sound familiar? I want to know how much money they make selling baby parts and to whom and for what reason. They are, after all, funded by the taxpayers.
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    ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Tamorlane's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post
    If I see a cat being killed in a women’s back yard do I not have the right to stop her from killing her cat?
    No you don't necessarily, especially if it's on her property. Animals are considered private property, there's usually requisites before making a citizen's arrest for animal abuse. You could do whatever you want, but it could lead to a lawsuit. Just thought it was ironic because of the woman's property thing.
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    Registered User Barteh's Avatar
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    I completely agree with your moral arguments and that the "my body my choice" thing is ridiculous. Kinda changed my stance on it as I grew older.

    I guess I'm still pro-choice though but that's more from a practical standpoint. You don't want millions of new foster kids who will be abandoned by their parents or grow up in a single household from the getgo. Another practical argument is that, much like with anything else you make illegal, people will still continue to do it. Just in a more dangerous and non-supervised manner.

    So my stance right now is anti-abortion is a personal sense (I wouldn't get my baby aborted unless there were serious health complications etc.) but pro-choice in a practical manner. People will still finds ways to do it and overall it's probably better for society as a whole to have it legal.

    Another big point for me is late term abortions. Make the legal limit like 4 months or something. Aborting an 8 months old baby is pure insanity.
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    Real talk, peace. BobLoblawBrah's Avatar
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    I'll bring a few counters for you. Note: I am neither here or there on this age old debate.


    There is always some subjectivity to moral arguments. You simply can't claim your argument is more logical - you can only give reasons for your conclusion.

    1 - is loaded in politics. A paper form is not a natural requirement of an abortion. They are legal or political instruments. They are not offsets of natural laws. Paperwork does not materialize upon abortions in the wild.

    2 - If God is the only thing that gives and takes life with impunity then why do other homicides not matter? Pro-lifers are commonly pro-capital punishment, in spite of the outrage of 'taking a life'. It's an issue not raised here, but how would you reconcile this?

    3 - If you have no special interest above the person next to you, then you can expect to have no impression on an individual case. If someone demonstrates a greater link to a matter, then what they want to do is clearly more important than what you want them to do. Do you support conscription?

    the rest - People are inherently irresponsible, especially when it comes to sex. You want to be idealistic about people as a collective taking responsibility, rather than take a utilitarian approach.
    The biggest issue with your argument is you shift between collective and individual responsibility to suit whatever sub-point you're trying to make. You put responsibility on training wheels and expect an ideal outcome when the wheels come off. You want to remove the agency of a person closer to the crisis than you are, and import your own views into her life, yet you also urge individual responsibility.
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    Gooner for Life frezKo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BobLoblawBrah View Post
    I'll bring a few counters for you. Note: I am neither here or there on this age old debate.


    There is always some subjectivity to moral arguments. You simply can't claim your argument is more logical - you can only give reasons for your conclusion.

    1 - is loaded in politics. A paper form is not a natural requirement of an abortion. They are legal or political instruments. They are not offsets of natural laws. Paperwork does not materialize upon abortions in the wild.

    2 - If God is the only thing that gives and takes life with impunity then why do other homicides not matter? Pro-lifers are commonly pro-capital punishment, in spite of the outrage of 'taking a life'. It's an issue not raised here, but how would you reconcile this?

    3 - If you have no special interest above the person next to you, then you can expect to have no impression on an individual case. If someone demonstrates a greater link to a matter, then what they want to do is clearly more important than what you want them to do. Do you support conscription?

    the rest - People are inherently irresponsible, especially when it comes to sex. You want to be idealistic about people as a collective taking responsibility, rather than take a utilitarian approach.
    The biggest issue with your argument is you shift between collective and individual responsibility to suit whatever sub-point you're trying to make. You put responsibility on training wheels and expect an ideal outcome when the wheels come off. You want to remove the agency of a person closer to the crisis than you are, and import your own views into her life, yet you also urge individual responsibility.
    1.) True.

    2.) I don't believe i referenced god in any of my posts.

    Opposition to the unjustified termination of another individual's life, whether after birth or before birth, would seem to me to have little relevance to the death penalty. There is very little equivalence between an innocent child’s life being taken in the womb or an adult being murdered and a convicted murderer being executed.

    I certainly do not see any inconsistency in one supporting capital punishment while condemning the actions of people like Ted Bundy or Dylann Roof. To argue that unless you oppose the execution of a convicted murderer you can’t oppose the murder of innocent people is rather silly really, and indeed, I can really understand why if one places a lot of value on life they might reasonably want to impose even more severe punishments upon those who unjustifiably take the lives of others.

    3.) Why can't i make it society's as well as individual's responsibilities to be responsible and say that killing an unborn baby is wrong? If anything both should should have responsibilities against abortion.
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    Gooner for Life frezKo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Barteh View Post
    I completely agree with your moral arguments and that the "my body my choice" thing is ridiculous. Kinda changed my stance on it as I grew older.

    I guess I'm still pro-choice though but that's more from a practical standpoint. You don't want millions of new foster kids who will be abandoned by their parents or grow up in a single household from the getgo. Another practical argument is that, much like with anything else you make illegal, people will still continue to do it. Just in a more dangerous and non-supervised manner.

    So my stance right now is anti-abortion is a personal sense (I wouldn't get my baby aborted unless there were serious health complications etc.) but pro-choice in a practical manner. People will still finds ways to do it and overall it's probably better for society as a whole to have it legal.

    Another big point for me is late term abortions. Make the legal limit like 4 months or something. Aborting an 8 months old baby is pure insanity.








    WHats the difference between 4 and 8 month mark?

    It looks like a baby from the start. There's little difference between the 4 month mark and 8 month mark.

    What makes it moral at 4 months rather than 8 months?
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    Registered User AriGhold's Avatar
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    Stopped reading at “human life starts at inception”

    Lol.
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    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post




    WHats the difference between 4 and 8 month mark?

    It looks like a baby from the start. There's little difference between the 4 month mark and 8 month mark.

    What makes it moral at 4 months rather than 8 months?
    When I learned that my girlfriend was pregnant she was already 8-9 weeks in. Some people find out a few weeks after that mark. Making the limit 2 months is practically the same as banning abortion all out. The baby already has a heartbeat after like 3-4 weeks anyway and people don't out about being pregnant that quickly.

    That brings it back to the practical/pragmatic reasons why I still think pro-choice is the way to go. A month's time after finding out you're pregnant should be enough to make the decision. Again, morally oppose it and I would never abort my own baby. But practically there's other strong arguments to make.

    Also, I saw the ultrasound at 10 weeks and I definitely can't say I recognize a human being or anything that resembles a head and body in those pictures.
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    Originally Posted by AriGhold View Post
    Stopped reading at “human life starts at inception”

    Lol.
    typical liberal response who have no coherent facts or logic behind their position on a controversial topic.

    Would of loved to have heard from a liberal.

    Originally Posted by Barteh View Post
    When I learned that my girlfriend was pregnant she was already 8-9 weeks in. Some people find out a few weeks after that mark. Making the limit 2 months is practically the same as banning abortion all out. The baby already has a heartbeat after like 3-4 weeks anyway and people don't out about being pregnant that quickly.

    That brings it back to the practical/pragmatic reasons why I still think pro-choice is the way to go. A month's time after finding out you're pregnant should be enough to make the decision. Again, morally oppose it and I would never abort my own baby. But practically there's other strong arguments to make.

    Also, I saw the ultrasound at 10 weeks and I definitely can't say I recognize a human being or anything that resembles a head and body in those pictures.
    So you're pro choice because it's an convenient and at 10 weeks it doesn't look like a person to you? Even though it can feel pain at that stage? Dilation and Extraction Abortions literally have to sometimes break the limbs of the baby and head in order to get it out of the vagina.
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    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post
    typical liberal response who have no coherent facts or logic behind their position on a controversial topic.

    Would of loved to have heard from a liberal.



    So you're pro choice because it's an convenient and at 10 weeks it doesn't look like a person to you? Even though it can feel pain at that stage? Dilation and Extraction Abortions literally have to sometimes break the limbs of the baby and head in order to get it out of the vagina.
    I'm pro-choice because of pragmatic and practical reasons. Not because I morally agree with abortion. I just pointed out the picture you quoted seems dishonest because at that stage it doesn't look like that to me. And I've seen actual ultrasound pictures and not just drawn pictures online to appeal to the anti-abortion crowd.

    Compare it to a person who is against drugs but still believes they should be legal because it's 1) safer to use when it's legal and 2) it doesn't get consumed more when it's legal. Do you disagree with abortion? Sure, that's one thing and I'm against it as well. Do you believe outright banning abortions will lead to good results and less abortions? That's a whole different question. Try to look at it from that point of view.

    Are murder rates lower in countries where murder is illegal (all countries so we can see the legal aspect of it doesn't make a difference) or countries where guns are illegal (debatable but doesn't seem like it). Do more people get addicted to drugs or consume drugs in countries where it's legal? No. Will banning abortions lead to a good end result? No, because of the same reasons as the above. Try to educate people on a moral level and try to make them responsable and act the correct way. But don't outlaw it because you disagree with it on a moral level. It simply will not lead to the result you desire.
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    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post
    1.) True.

    2.) I don't believe i referenced god in any of my posts.

    Opposition to the unjustified termination of another individual's life, whether after birth or before birth, would seem to me to have little relevance to the death penalty. There is very little equivalence between an innocent child’s life being taken in the womb or an adult being murdered and a convicted murderer being executed.

    I certainly do not see any inconsistency in one supporting capital punishment while condemning the actions of people like Ted Bundy or Dylann Roof. To argue that unless you oppose the execution of a convicted murderer you can’t oppose the murder of innocent people is rather silly really, and indeed, I can really understand why if one places a lot of value on life they might reasonably want to impose even more severe punishments upon those who unjustifiably take the lives of others.

    3.) Why can't i make it society's as well as individual's responsibilities to be responsible and say that killing an unborn baby is wrong? If anything both should should have responsibilities against abortion.

    2 - You may not reference God, but generally the moral argument aligns with classic natural law arguments or notions of a 'god given right' to live.

    If 'unborn people' have a prerogative to live, then so surely do born people, no matter what actions they take. The point is either life and death is always the realm of God/nature, or conditions of life and death are always within the power of man.

    Ultimately, a rule for one and a different rule for another is no good law.

    3 - there is no individual if they are forced to follow the collective will.




    What would you say about a baby saved from abortion that eventually grew up and ended up on death row?
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    Originally Posted by BobLoblawBrah View Post
    2 - You may not reference God, but generally the moral argument aligns with classic natural law arguments or notions of a 'god given right' to live.

    If 'unborn people' have a prerogative to live, then so surely do born people, no matter what actions they take. The point is either life and death is always the realm of God/nature, or conditions of life and death are always within the power of man.

    Ultimately, a rule for one and a different rule for another is no good law.

    3 - there is no individual if they are forced to follow the collective will.




    What would you say about a baby saved from abortion that eventually grew up and ended up on death row?
    I think that's a pretty bad comparison man. The argument against abortion is that it's a an innocent life being taken. They never even got the chance to live their life. The capital punishment is for bad people, guilty people, only then do you take their life away. I don't think god comes into the equation here as much as you make it out to be.
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    Originally Posted by BobLoblawBrah View Post
    2 - You may not reference God, but generally the moral argument aligns with classic natural law arguments or notions of a 'god given right' to live.

    If 'unborn people' have a prerogative to live, then so surely do born people, no matter what actions they take. The point is either life and death is always the realm of God/nature, or conditions of life and death are always within the power of man.

    Ultimately, a rule for one and a different rule for another is no good law.

    3 - there is no individual if they are forced to follow the collective will.




    What would you say about a baby saved from abortion that eventually grew up and ended up on death row?
    I think the majority of law has been a projection of religion and god. Laws have been derived from the ten commandments. So even if the main argument of what is moral/immoral of a certain topic, the argument shouldn't lose any substance or value.


    Well at that point we're playing what if's and god right? Can't the same be said about a baby that was aborted. What if Stacey's aborted baby would have solved cancer, found a cure for HIV & AIDS, or became a doctor and operated and saved people's lives.
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    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post
    I think the majority of law has been a projection of religion and god. Laws have been derived from the ten commandments. So even if the main argument of what is moral/immoral of a certain topic, the argument shouldn't lose any substance or value.


    Well at that point we're playing what if's and god right? Can't the same be said about a baby that was aborted. What if Stacey's aborted baby would have solved cancer, found a cure for HIV & AIDS, or became a doctor and operated and saved people's lives.
    I noticed you ignored my post and didn't respond to it at all. So I'm just going to make my point one more time before fukkin off.

    I'm not making a moral appeal to you, we are on the same page regarding that. I'm making a pragmatic appeal to you. What do you think about the pragmatic reasons to keep abortion legal? Do you think outlawing abortion will have a positive effect on society and do you think it will lead to less abortions? That's the point I'm trying to make you see. If you can look beyond "it's bad/immoral so it should be illegal" I think that would go a long way.

    What's the ideal outcome? Less abortions, and as some would say "less babies murdered", right? So what's the solution? I don't think outlawing abortion is the solution for that. You need to convince pro-abortion people on moral grounds to make them agree with you that abortion is in fact an immoral thing to do. Then, in the end, less people will choose to abort their babies.
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    Abortion should be the most black and white issue in politics, yet its not

    Close to 100% of Biologists know life begin at birth, hell even 92% democrat voting biologists agree
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    You guys are using too many words to say that killing kids is bad.
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    Abortions will be obsolete in less than 30 years. There are already artificial wombs in development. When we get enough advancement there, women who do not wish to continue their pregnancies can have the fetus removed and implanted in an artificial womb where it develops into a baby and is put up for adoption.
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    Originally Posted by Captain0bvious View Post
    100% Pro Life. Life ultimately begins at conception. Its not the woman's body its another body living inside of their body. I feel that society would be much healthier if abortion was made illegal and if we didnt incentivize having more children by paying out welfare.
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    This is my favorite and it's short and sweet

    If I punch a pregnant woman in the stomach and she loses the clump of cells, it's only assault at best then right?

    Kill a pregnant woman is only homicide, not double homicide.

    Stab woman, she lives, clump of cells doesn't. Assault with deadly weapon, maybe attempted murder.

    K den.
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    i didnt read, but the debate is lost. just dont fall into the predicament yourself.
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    Lmao this why this forum is a joke and slowly dying

    Originally Posted by Barteh View Post
    I guess I'm still pro-choice though but that's more from a practical standpoint. You don't want millions of new foster kids who will be abandoned by their parents or grow up in a single household from the getgo. Another practical argument is that, much like with anything else you make illegal, people will still continue to do it. Just in a more dangerous and non-supervised manner.

    So my stance right now is anti-abortion is a personal sense (I wouldn't get my baby aborted unless there were serious health complications etc.) but pro-choice in a practical manner. People will still finds ways to do it and overall it's probably better for society as a whole to have it legal.

    Another big point for me is late term abortions. Make the legal limit like 4 months or something. Aborting an 8 months old baby is pure insanity.
    At least one person here has some sense. You don't have to be pro-abortion to realize this is a public health issue and not a debate on morality.
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    Originally Posted by Captain0bvious View Post
    100% Pro Life. Life ultimately begins at conception. Its not the woman's body its another body living inside of their body. I feel that society would be much healthier if abortion was made illegal and if we didnt incentivize having more children by paying out welfare.
    A fetus is not a child and abortion should be legal until 9 months and anti abortion protesters should be punched in the face.
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    Originally Posted by Barteh View Post
    I completely agree with your moral arguments and that the "my body my choice" thing is ridiculous. Kinda changed my stance on it as I grew older.

    I guess I'm still pro-choice though but that's more from a practical standpoint. You don't want millions of new foster kids who will be abandoned by their parents or grow up in a single household from the getgo. Another practical argument is that, much like with anything else you make illegal, people will still continue to do it. Just in a more dangerous and non-supervised manner.

    So my stance right now is anti-abortion is a personal sense (I wouldn't get my baby aborted unless there were serious health complications etc.) but pro-choice in a practical manner. People will still finds ways to do it and overall it's probably better for society as a whole to have it legal.

    Another big point for me is late term abortions. Make the legal limit like 4 months or something. Aborting an 8 months old baby is pure insanity.
    This is mostly where I am on the topic.

    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post
    3.) Why can't i make it society's as well as individual's responsibilities to be responsible and say that killing an unborn baby is wrong? If anything both should should have responsibilities against abortion.
    So should society be on the hook to support and raise actual millions of unwanted children?

    Originally Posted by frezKo View Post

    WHats the difference between 4 and 8 month mark?

    It looks like a baby from the start. There's little difference between the 4 month mark and 8 month mark.

    What makes it moral at 4 months rather than 8 months?
    Viability outside of the womb.

    Originally Posted by Barteh View Post

    Compare it to a person who is against drugs but still believes they should be legal because it's 1) safer to use when it's legal and 2) it doesn't get consumed more when it's legal. Do you disagree with abortion? Sure, that's one thing and I'm against it as well. Do you believe outright banning abortions will lead to good results and less abortions? That's a whole different question. Try to look at it from that point of view.

    Are murder rates lower in countries where murder is illegal (all countries so we can see the legal aspect of it doesn't make a difference) or countries where guns are illegal (debatable but doesn't seem like it). Do more people get addicted to drugs or consume drugs in countries where it's legal? No. Will banning abortions lead to a good end result? No, because of the same reasons as the above. Try to educate people on a moral level and try to make them responsable and act the correct way. But don't outlaw it because you disagree with it on a moral level. It simply will not lead to the result you desire.
    This too.

    OP what are your thoughts on organ donation?

    Right now the deceased (via DL selection in many states) or family of the deceased must give written consent for organs to be harvested to benefit other people and in many cases save their lives.

    If a woman doesn't have the right to have an unwanted fetus removed from her body because the life of the fetus (potential baby) takes precedence then wouldn't it follow that all bodies should be harvested of needed materials upon death since those organs will save lives?

    Those lives that could be lost without needed organs are as important as the life of a fetus, right?

    Do we have the right to say what happens to our own flesh, or no?

    What if I have a rare blood type that is in high demand? Can the state take my blood by force? If my blood isn't taken then it could lead to needless deaths.
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    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    I don't believe an embryo/fetus prior to the point of viability (22+ weeks depending on the definition you use) is alive, which is always going to be a point of contention with this discussion. Just medically speaking (I'm a pediatrician) there is nothing bout a fetus in the first trimester that makes me think it is alive at all. To be clear regarding your 1st point though, science does not back an abortion as killing a human life (assuming it is done early in pregnancy).

    Regarding your 2nd point, pain is not thought to be felt until 20+ weeks, not 10 weeks. To my knowledge there is no definitive evidence showing when pain is first felt but I have never seen anything to indicate it is as early as 8-10 weeks.

    Condoms are effective at preventing pregnancy at a 98% rate per year with perfect use but with practical use it is considerably lower.

    Practically though I want to chime in more; I have a lot patients who are in foster care. I have seen a lot of people's lives destroyed in early childhood from trauma and other things where their family clear had no desire to take care of them. I have patients now with their biological families where families clearly have no desire to get them the support they need to do well and thrive. A lot of these patients will likely grow up to be burdens on society or criminals in large part due to the completely unsupported childhood they are having. There is nothing I can do about this. Not saying all of these families would have gotten abortions if they were more widely available, and I'm not saying that there are no kids in this situation who thrive, but I cannot help but think there would be so many more of these sad stories if abortions were truly banned. Our foster care system is not large enough to account for all of this and they pose a large strain on mental health/behavioral intervention resources.

    So, morally I have no issue with abortion, and practically I think our society would be much worse off if it were banned.

    All that said, I do totally understand and respect the viewpoint of those who feel abortion is murder and everyone deserves a chance at life. For this reason I think this is one issue where it can be almost impossible to find common ground.
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