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  1. #1
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Overtraining way too easily

    Im stuck in really low numbers and I cant go more than 4 weeks without "over training syndrome" even when Ive reduced my weekly volume to something that is completely minimal. Piss away 1-2 weeks to recover, then youre right back to where you started. Make progress back up and stall again at the same spot. Not because you cant build strength or muscle—but because of goddamn inability to handle cumulative fatigue beyond 4 weeks like clockwork.

    Seeing a doctor in 2 weeks. This bull**** is so frustrating. I know a lot of people think youre just being a pussy or youre lazy or not eating or sleeping right. No. Not always. Sometimes you just got dealt a **** hand.

    Has anyone else dealt with this kind of thing? Are there any known medical conditions that create this kind of issue?

    Had bloodwork. Testosterone came back in the upper range of normal. TSH is fine too...

    Just to demonstrate how conservative my routine is:

    day 1

    squat 3x8
    bench press 3x8
    chins 3x8

    day 2

    squat 3x8
    press 4x8
    chins 3x8

    day 3

    bench 3x8
    deadlift 1x5
    barbell rows 4x8
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  2. #2
    Registered User CommitmentRulz's Avatar
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    What are your symptoms for "over training syndrome". 3 workouts a a week?

    And you're 35? Height, weight? What are your lifting numbers for each of the lifts?

    Is your weight steady? How many calories a day do you eat?
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  3. #3
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    What are your symptoms for "over training syndrome". 3 workouts a a week?

    And you're 35? Height, weight? What are your lifting numbers for each of the lifts?

    Is your weight steady? How many calories a day do you eat?
    6'0", 165lbs, skinny fat.

    my numbers right now are trash. 190X8 on the squat, 145X8 on the bench. Ive plateaued at 165lbs weight loss, yes I am dieting, this problem pre-dates my cut. I was aiming for 1700 calories a day day but am more like 1900 right now.

    The best I ever did was 275X5 squat on a 4 day texas method with the dirtiest of bulks. I was probably 235lbs when I hit that "PR." There was zero fatigue generated during that period from bench press volume due to inability to bench as I had a torn subscapularis during that time. I got standing press up to 145X5 pr. Progress was weekly or biweekly during this time.

    Aside from that 6 month training period my squats have always stalled around 185 and Ive never benched more than 170X5.

    Also I prefer 4 work outs a week but switched back to 3 day full body on May 12th to see if that would fix things with an additional rest day. Not really.
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  4. #4
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Symptoms:

    Lack of motivation (today is my day off work and I dont even feel like turning on a video game)

    drastic loss of strength. (I had a good work out at 185X8 squats) The next session felt like **** so I did 190 2X5 at a grind.) The next work out I did 190 2X8, 1X5)

    Then I got severe doms that lasted several days and I normally dont get doms anymore.

    Then the next session on bench press I got like 4 reps at a weight I was supposed to hit 8 reps on, a weight I hadnt even increased for 3 sessions.


    My biomechanics feel off. Like the squat movement pattern even without weight feels wrong. I cant get tight in the bench with shoulder retraction. My hands feel heavy and grip feels off.

    Sometimes I feel like the beginnings of a sore throat when this begins to happen.

    My joints may be sensitive.

    Unracking the bar on bench becomes harder. Unracking on squat, my thoracic spine wants to buckle a little. It feels much heavier than it should.

    hands, forearms, calves, feet feel off. like a subtle weakness in them. Not lifting I mean just sitting here right now.

    Ill start yawning a lot. Severe lethargy and sluggishness throughout the day.

    this week particularly Ive come home from work and just crash. Cant get out of the chair for hours.

    Ill sleep for 8, 9, 10 hours and still feel tired when I get up. I feel stiff as hell in the shoulders for at least 1-2 hours after I wake up.

    Sometimes I have memory lapses. Like Ill open google to search something and forget what I was going to search for...

    Im probably forgetting some of the things but this is the worst of it.


    In a word, it's like lifting weights when you're sick with the flu, except there is no fever, no actual sore throat usually, no nausea, headache, etc. Just a flu-like weakness state.
    Last edited by StillbornSoul; 06-20-2020 at 05:01 PM.
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  5. #5
    Time is Muscle ECGordyn's Avatar
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    Boost your calories. I quickly checked a tdee calculator, and you need around 2600-2700 instead of 1900. That puts you at a 30% deficit!
    Currently running Calgary Barbell 8 Week again: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=175647011&p=1611786081&viewfull=1#post1611786081
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    Registered User radrd's Avatar
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    >6' 165 lbs
    >Lifting

    Pick one.

    Stop worrying about staying thin. Eat and lift. You'll still be thin at 175 lbs and even 185 and 195 if you train hard.
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  7. #7
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by radrd View Post
    >6' 165 lbs
    >Lifting

    Pick one.

    Stop worrying about staying thin. Eat and lift. You'll still be thin at 175 lbs and even 185 and 195 if you train hard.
    Okay, but like I said this is still a problem when I dirty bulk.
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    Registered User radrd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StillbornSoul View Post
    Okay, but like I said this is still a problem when I dirty bulk.
    Well have you tried clean bulking? Also, train 5-6x week and include some cardio.
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  9. #9
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by radrd View Post
    Well have you tried clean bulking? Also, train 5-6x week and include some cardio.
    Ive tried those things too.
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  10. #10
    In it for the gainz RestoringTally's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by radrd View Post
    >6' 165 lbs
    >Lifting

    Pick one.

    Stop worrying about staying thin. Eat and lift. You'll still be thin at 175 lbs and even 185 and 195 if you train hard.
    ^^^^ This.

    You are underweight and trying to loose weight? And you are lifting.

    What are your goals? What is it that you are trying to accomplish other than lose a lot of weight while lifting?
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  11. #11
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RestoringTally View Post
    ^^^^ This.

    You are underweight and trying to loose weight? And you are lifting.

    What are your goals? What is it that you are trying to accomplish other than lose a lot of weight while lifting?
    Its the skinny-fat trap. But as Ive said already a couple times even when I get up to 190, 210.. it still is a problem..

    I was trying to drop to 155 and then do a nice clean bulk. I have more abdominal fat and love handle fat than I should. Its not like Im trying to get a six pack.
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    Your Cals are way low, and if they are that low, it is likely your micro nutrients ie, vits, mins, and electrolytes are also low.
    (but I can say for sure without a food diary).

    Without training you should be taking in 2000 cals, if you add in lifting the you are going to feel bone.

    Others have said, you need to increase your cal consumption, and eat good quality real food. Add in some carido work, like bike, rucking or running, and I would not want to be hitting 155lb you will hardly be carrying any muscle at 6ft tall.
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    You are confusing over training syndrome with boring ineffective programming.
    True over training syndrome is not something that happens every 4 weeks.
    I would want to shoot myself after a month of that program.

    Try hitting everything twice a week.

    Use Prilepin's chart for reps/sets/volume
    https://www.elitefts.com/education/t...ilepins-chart/

    If you do 3 sets of 8 , 3 times a week for squats there is an intensity that would cause you to not make progress. Newbs most the time view this in the opposite that there is a lack of intensity that would cause them to not make progress. This is true too but our mindset tries to turn everything into a competition lift so it is more likely you overshoot on too much intensity.

    Don't neglect cardio/conditioning. There is a good chance your general physical preparedness sucks.
    Last edited by MaxMaximorum; 06-21-2020 at 05:48 AM.
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    Originally Posted by StillbornSoul View Post
    Symptoms:

    Lack of motivation (today is my day off work and I dont even feel like turning on a video game)

    drastic loss of strength. (I had a good work out at 185X8 squats) The next session felt like **** so I did 190 2X5 at a grind.) The next work out I did 190 2X8, 1X5)

    Then I got severe doms that lasted several days and I normally dont get doms anymore.

    Then the next session on bench press I got like 4 reps at a weight I was supposed to hit 8 reps on, a weight I hadnt even increased for 3 sessions.


    My biomechanics feel off. Like the squat movement pattern even without weight feels wrong. I cant get tight in the bench with shoulder retraction. My hands feel heavy and grip feels off.

    Sometimes I feel like the beginnings of a sore throat when this begins to happen.

    My joints may be sensitive.

    Unracking the bar on bench becomes harder. Unracking on squat, my thoracic spine wants to buckle a little. It feels much heavier than it should.

    hands, forearms, calves, feet feel off. like a subtle weakness in them. Not lifting I mean just sitting here right now.

    Ill start yawning a lot. Severe lethargy and sluggishness throughout the day.

    this week particularly Ive come home from work and just crash. Cant get out of the chair for hours.

    Ill sleep for 8, 9, 10 hours and still feel tired when I get up. I feel stiff as hell in the shoulders for at least 1-2 hours after I wake up.

    Sometimes I have memory lapses. Like Ill open google to search something and forget what I was going to search for...

    Im probably forgetting some of the things but this is the worst of it.


    In a word, it's like lifting weights when you're sick with the flu, except there is no fever, no actual sore throat usually, no nausea, headache, etc. Just a flu-like weakness state.
    These are not symptoms of overtraining. Like others have said, these are symptoms of lack of energy -- underfeeding.

    Increase your high-quality calories, make sure you get plenty of protein.

    Give creatine a try.

    You mention sleeping a lot of hours. Is that every night or intermittent? You do need good rest when you're lifting.

    And ignore advice about working out 5 days a week. Three good workouts a week is fine.

    There might be something else going on. If after several weeks of increased calories you still feel that way, see a doctor.
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  15. #15
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    These are not symptoms of overtraining. Like others have said, these are symptoms of lack of energy -- underfeeding.

    Increase your high-quality calories, make sure you get plenty of protein.

    Give creatine a try.

    You mention sleeping a lot of hours. Is that every night or intermittent? You do need good rest when you're lifting.

    And ignore advice about working out 5 days a week. Three good workouts a week is fine.

    There might be something else going on. If after several weeks of increased calories you still feel that way, see a doctor.
    I am seeing a sports med doc on the 1st.

    This has been an issue even on bulks so its not caloric I dont believe.


    A question for everyone is if its a massive nutritional, caloric cause, then why do I feel fine for 4 weeks and even get stronger and then after week 4 like clockwork, there I go crashing hard and seemingly over night again.

    I think its a cortisol mitigation issue.

    I guess what I wanted to find out more than anything is if anyones familiar with any kind of weird endocrine or neurological conditions that gives someone a ****ty threshold for CNS work capacity. "Adrenal fatigue" isnt recognized as a formal diagnosis but it seems like this would describe how everything goes for me.

    If I had a hard leg day and my bench and grip strength is trash relative to where it should be, then its not because my leg muscles are under-recovered. Looking into buying a grip strength tester now just to help me gauge when to dial back before a true crash happens.

    My diet largely consists of steak, tilapia, black beans, brown rice, spinach, and hardboiled eggs. I drink whey and will drop in 1.5 tbsp of coconut oil into it. I have been taking various vitamins too to cover any micronutrient issues.


    I based my caloric allowance off of Lyle Mcdonald's formula recommendations 10 cal per lb of body weight to cut. 15 as a starting place for maintenance and 16-18 for bulk.

    Again. Ive been eating extra lately and am stuck at 165lbs. So I am not empirically eating 1600 calories. This is why Im stuck at 165lbs.
    Last edited by StillbornSoul; 06-21-2020 at 05:00 PM.
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  16. #16
    In it for the gainz RestoringTally's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RestoringTally View Post
    ^^^^ This.

    You are underweight and trying to loose weight? And you are lifting.

    What are your goals? What is it that you are trying to accomplish other than lose a lot of weight while lifting?
    Originally Posted by StillbornSoul View Post
    Its the skinny-fat trap. But as Ive said already a couple times even when I get up to 190, 210.. it still is a problem..

    I was trying to drop to 155 and then do a nice clean bulk. I have more abdominal fat and love handle fat than I should. Its not like Im trying to get a six pack.
    Those aren't goals. Dieting and then bulking is a plan for getting somewhere. But where do you want to be? That is your goal. Do you want to be fit? Does that mean you have the ability to accomplish certain acts? Do you want to have a particular bodyweight and/or body shape? Do you want to be stronger like a powerlifter or look like a bodybuilder or a fitness model?

    Knowing where you want to end up allows others to better advise you how to get there since, obviously, your plan is not working.

    The more you write, the more it sounds like you have body dysmorphia. If you have too much body fat and almost no muscle, the easiest way to get rid of the fat is to add muscle and then diet down to the bodyfat level you want.
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  17. #17
    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RestoringTally View Post
    Those aren't goals. Dieting and then bulking is a plan for getting somewhere. But where do you want to be? That is your goal. Do you want to be fit? Does that mean you have the ability to accomplish certain acts? Do you want to have a particular bodyweight and/or body shape? Do you want to be stronger like a powerlifter or look like a bodybuilder or a fitness model?

    Knowing where you want to end up allows others to better advise you how to get there since, obviously, your plan is not working.

    The more you write, the more it sounds like you have body dysmorphia. If you have too much body fat and almost no muscle, the easiest way to get rid of the fat is to add muscle and then diet down to the bodyfat level you want.
    I want to have an aesthetic physique. I value hypertrophy above strength, but also enjoy seeing my numbers go up. Its the surest measure of progress.

    I wont say bodybuilder because Im not trying to become massive. Id be content with something like a Christian Bale Physique. Even a peak Indiana Jones physique. If I could get to that, which I thought was entirely reasonable, then Id up my goals to more of a Van-damme target or something.
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  18. #18
    In it for the gainz RestoringTally's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StillbornSoul View Post
    I want to have an aesthetic physique. I value hypertrophy above strength, but also enjoy seeing my numbers go up. Its the surest measure of progress.

    I wont say bodybuilder because Im not trying to become massive. Id be content with something like a Christian Bale Physique. Even a peak Indiana Jones physique. If I could get to that, which I thought was entirely reasonable, then Id up my goals to more of a Van-damme target or something.
    Then I suggest a slow bulk. Make sure you are eating enough protein and shoot for a slow growth rate. You need to build a base of muscle, which at 6' and 165 lbs is too low. The idea is to add more muscle than fat. If you gain weight too fast, a lot of it will be fat. But a slow, steady weight gain with a good workout program will ensure most of the gains are muscle. And a side benefit of eating more is that you will have more energy and not feel as worn out.
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    Registered User StillbornSoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RestoringTally View Post
    Then I suggest a slow bulk. Make sure you are eating enough protein and shoot for a slow growth rate. You need to build a base of muscle, which at 6' and 165 lbs is too low. The idea is to add more muscle than fat. If you gain weight too fast, a lot of it will be fat. But a slow, steady weight gain with a good workout program will ensure most of the gains are muscle. And a side benefit of eating more is that you will have more energy and not feel as worn out.
    I aim for 1-1.25g protein /lb and 0.4g fat per lb.

    I had hoped to just carve off a lot of this gut and facial fat and then bulk up, but what you suggest is probably what Ill end up doing. I just got genetically screwed with how my body dispositions fat. My face gets a lot of it too.
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    Honestly it sounds like a combination of factors.

    ~ Too few calories. At your size, 1700-1900 cal/day while trying to build muscle isn't going to happen. Believe me, I know what it is like to be at 6' tall and 165 pounds and still have unwanted fat to deal with. I am in that exact situation right now. Six feet tall, 165 pounds and still looking to lose the last few pounds of obvious fat. However I am also not trying to build muscle at the moment as much as simply working to preserve what muscle I have. You really need to decide if you want fat loss or muscle growth because you aren't going to succeed at either if you keep trying to do them both at once.

    ~Possibly not sleeping ~deeply~ enough. I used to sleep for 8+ hours night and still felt terible the next day. Turns out that I wasn't getting enough deep sleep to allow my body to repair itself.

    You might want to look into a sleep study to see if that is part of your problem.
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    I would seek medical advise for your issue.
    If all is ok then maybe hire a qualified coach or trainer to get you going towards a goal.
    Being accountable to someone especially if your paying them can be motivating.
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    Is 0.4g of fat per lb enough for you? I know from experience that I do better on higher fat for hormone production. And the extra calories from it wouldn't hurt. Maybe just bump it up a bit, tin of mackerel per day for a snack or something or a fatty cut of beef.
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    Originally Posted by StillbornSoul View Post
    I aim for 1-1.25g protein /lb and 0.4g fat per lb.
    I missed that before.

    Your fats are too low to be sustainable for the amount of effort that you are putting out over time. Fat that low can cause a drop in hormone production which could easily account for the lost energy/motivation.

    Go to closer to 80g+ of (good) fats per day for a couple of weeks and see if that helps to correct your issues.
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    I’ve read the first few posts and dude I am skinnyfat and was stuck in the same rut as you.

    What helped me is a refeed day at 300 to 500 above cutting calories. I wanted to not loose cut progress so i reduced my cutting calories another 50 calories a day to make up for the refeed. Working great for me for several weeks.

    You are under recovering and not over training. That’s what I was doing. Infelt exactly the same way as you. I think I don’t recover well. We’re just dealt that’s hand I suppose.

    I will read more of your thread hopefully you have figured this already.

    Choose one. Bulk or cut. If cutting don’t try to progress weight. You will kill that recovery.

    That one refeed a week balances out hormones, specially Leptin for me. My Overall weekly calories are 700 below what I was eating when I was having this issue. Let me ask you one thing and you’ll know I’m talking from experience.

    When you start feeling laghargic and bar is feeling heaving etc that day even moving a 45lb plate on and off the bar feels heavy. Doesn’t it?? Yea that’s how bad it was for me. You’ll be fine. Do a weekly refeed. Took me almost a year to figure this out about my body. Every body is different and we gotta figure out what works for ours.

    I was thinking it’s macros and fats and carbs etc. I tried several things and nothing worked. I’m currently eating about 1850 average calories a day @ 165lbs, 35% protien and fats and 30% carbs.

    Edit: corrected 1850 a week to 1850 a day. I eat 1850 a day currently with one refeed day a week and loosing a pound a week.
    Last edited by TryingBB; 07-07-2020 at 05:05 PM.
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