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  1. #31
    Nihilist Karl_Hungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Very fair comment and the reason i don't throw around the "R" word casually on this website. It just seems that some of the worst things that we see on video, just so happen to be happening to ....you know.... people that don't look like the officer engaging in the activity. It is so bad now, that when i hear circumstances or details of a story, i try and guess who the victim is before a "tell" is given. The victim is never a blonde woman or a man of Jewish origin.

    Go figure.
    Yeah, but the reason is that the media select which cases to publicize. We know from the data that there are plenty of people from other races that get shot by the police, but they rarely make national headlines because we don't have the same level of interest in such stories. Lower interest = lower ratings. If however, a black person gets shot, we already know it will be attributed to racism -- the media can fan the flames and have weeks of high ratings as they cover the ensuing carnage. It is pretty disgusting really....
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  2. #32
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by blue9steel View Post
    While I'm generally in favor of a race neutral, everyone equal before the law approach I don't think that works here. As best I can tell with the information presented, George Floyd was murdered on purpose because he was black. This wasn't because he was poor, or the cop was dirty, or he threatened the officers in some way, was armed or particularly dangerous, etc. I haven't heard anything to suggest that the cops involved were corrupt. Plenty of excessive use of force complaints, but that's a different kind of problem. Frankly I don't think this is an issue of just one, or a small number of bad cops among an overall good force either. I'd say there are deep systemic problems both with that local department and U.S. policing in general.
    From what I've read, in this case there seems to be indications that the hostility was personal, not racial. The two had been apparently been acquainted previously through their work. That's not to say that racism isn't often the problem, but in this particular case, it's not so clear.
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  3. #33
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Yeah, but the reason is that the media select which cases to publicize. We know from the data that there are plenty of people from other races that get shot by the police, but they rarely make national headlines because we don't have the same level of interest in such stories. Lower interest = lower ratings. If however, a black person gets shot, we already know it will be attributed to racism -- the media can fan the flames and have weeks of high ratings as they cover the ensuing carnage. It is pretty disgusting really....
    The media selects based on what their audience wants to buy. Ultimately, it always comes down to us. There's no one else we can blame.
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  4. #34
    Nihilist Karl_Hungus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    The media selects based on what their audience wants to buy. Ultimately, it always comes down to us. There's no one else we can blame.
    I agree completely.
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  5. #35
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bando View Post
    I'll tell you what, post a video of a cop kneeling on a white Guy's neck for 2 minutes after he's dead.

    I'll wait.
    Bando......you really kidding. How about this then?

    White guy, unarmed, with his hands up, crying and trying to follow officers orders, shot at point blank range. Hard to watch this regardless of color. IF...this were a black guy, it would be all about race. Since he was not black....what do you blame it on?





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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    Very fair comment and the reason i don't throw around the "R" word casually on this website. It just seems that some of the worst things that we see on video, just so happen to be happening to ....you know.... people that don't look like the officer engaging in the activity. It is so bad now, that when i hear circumstances or details of a story, i try and guess who the victim is before a "tell" is given. The victim is never a blonde woman or a man of Jewish origin.

    Go figure.
    No, that’s what makes the news.

    The stats do not support your claim.


    The stats are not subject to who writes the narrative. The stats are what they are. The stats do not support the claims that are being run out there by those with an agenda to gain control.

    These idiot legislators, in some cases, have had upwards of 45 years to address this issue. These tools are acting like this issue just became an issue in the last three years. Ffs, vote these idiots out. They had their chance.
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  7. #37
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Cop choking a white kid for skateboarding. Is this racist?

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  8. #38
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    How about this? Racist? 15 yo kid flung on ground by cops.

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  9. #39
    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    The media selects based on what their audience wants to buy. Ultimately, it always comes down to us. There's no one else we can blame.
    Not really, if that were the case we would all have enough of what everyone likes at thier fingertips, instead the media is used to create the most popular view.

    And how dare you use the word “us”, bigoted word!
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  10. #40
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Cop picking on little teenagers. Is this racist?


    Might find as many vids on youtube of skateboarders being harassed by police as blacks (srs). Since most of these kids are white....what is the issue? Is this racism.

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  11. #41
    Clearly Irrational blue9steel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    Please state your source for this? Best I can tell he was killed because the cop is a straight up @sshole. There has been zero proof anywhere that it was strictly a racial issue.
    I'm basing my opinion on the video, the officers prior record, the department's record, and my personal experiences with East Coast racism when I visited those areas.

    Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    You have no idea whatsoever if George Floyd was killed because he was black. You are talking out your ass. It may end up being true, but right now...you and I have no clue so please stop the bs.
    Lacking psychic powers or a double blind randomized study then ascribing motives to this incident will of course be both driven by individual judgement and be somewhat anecdotal. However, given the evidence and numbers I've seen over the years I'm think I'm on fairly solid footing.

    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    More whites get shot than blacks by cops - https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
    Great, I like data let's use that. Evidence and data are usually a good way to frame a conversation.

    2019 Deaths from Statista.com
    370 White
    235 Black
    1004 Total (all races)

    2019 U.S. Census Bureau Estimates of Demographics
    60.4% White
    13.4% Black

    Given the demographic data and a racially neutral policing policy we should expect roughly:
    606 White
    134 Black

    So according to that whites are only killed at 61% of the rate we would expect while blacks were killed at 175% of the expected rate. That means there is a racial disparity in police killings of roughly 286% between blacks and whites. That effect size seems large enough to suggest there is a real problem here and it's not just a statistical artifact.

    Now, with any analysis of this nature you would need to adjust for confounding factors to be sure we're teasing out the right conclusions and not just spurious correlations. A more thorough analysis is likely warranted and is outside the scope of a random forum post.
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  12. #42
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by blue9steel View Post


    So according to that whites are only killed at 61% of the rate we would expect while blacks were killed at 175% of the expected rate. That means there is a racial disparity in police killings of roughly 286% between blacks and whites. That effect size seems large enough to suggest there is a real problem here and it's not just a statistical artifact.

    Now, with any analysis of this nature you would need to adjust for confounding factors to be sure we're teasing out the right conclusions and not just spurious correlations. A more thorough analysis is likely warranted and is outside the scope of a random forum post.
    Dude....nice analysis. But you can not analyze just based on population. You have to base the amount of each race involved in crimes which lead to police intervention.

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  13. #43
    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by blue9steel View Post
    I'm basing my opinion on the video, the officers prior record, the department's record, and my personal experiences with East Coast racism when I visited those areas.



    Lacking psychic powers or a double blind randomized study then ascribing motives to this incident will of course be both driven by individual judgement and be somewhat anecdotal. However, given the evidence and numbers I've seen over the years I'm think I'm on fairly solid footing.



    Great, I like data let's use that. Evidence and data are usually a good way to frame a conversation.

    2019 Deaths from Statista.com
    370 White
    235 Black
    1004 Total (all races)

    2019 U.S. Census Bureau Estimates of Demographics
    60.4% White
    13.4% Black

    Given the demographic data and a racially neutral policing policy we should expect roughly:
    606 White
    134 Black

    So according to that whites are only killed at 61% of the rate we would expect while blacks were killed at 175% of the expected rate. That means there is a racial disparity in police killings of roughly 286% between blacks and whites. That effect size seems large enough to suggest there is a real problem here and it's not just a statistical artifact.

    Now, with any analysis of this nature you would need to adjust for confounding factors to be sure we're teasing out the right conclusions and not just spurious correlations. A more thorough analysis is likely warranted and is outside the scope of a random forum post.


    Whites are the minarities, at least in my metro politian area, all the leaders are black, yet they still call the black radio station blaming whitey????
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  14. #44
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Bando......you really kidding. How about this then?

    White guy, unarmed, with his hands up, crying and trying to follow officers orders, shot at point blank range. Hard to watch this regardless of color. IF...this were a black guy, it would be all about race. Since he was not black....what do you blame it on?





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  15. #45
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....nice analysis. But you can not analyze just based on population. You have to base the amount of each race involved in crimes which lead to police intervention.

    In case you missed it....

    As has been mentioned before, even statistics like that can be skewed. I've had cars stolen three times -- the same car was stolen twice by two different people (It was a Saturn, apparently pretty easy to hotwire). The one case where they caught the perpetrators, en route to Mexico, they were Hispanic. In another case, no one was caught, but judging by the neighborhood the car was found in, and certain items left in the car, the thieves were almost certainly white. In the last case, a Taurus stolen out of the parking lot of the apartments we lived in, we knew who the perpetrator was, he was white, and known to us. We identified him to the police. They couldn't be bothered to arrest him. Once the car was recovered, it was case closed as far as they were concerned.

    Had the thief been black, is it possible they would have pursued it with more interest? From what I've seen, I think it's very possible.
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  16. #46
    Clearly Irrational blue9steel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....nice analysis. But you can not analyze just based on population. You have to base the amount of each race involved in crimes which lead to police intervention.

    In case you missed it....
    Oh I agree, but that leads you to all other sorts of questions which makes things more complex

    1) Is this an issue more about race or economics?
    2) Why is the total number of deaths so high compared to other countries?
    3) Why do interventions appear racially disproportionate?
    4) Is this a regional issue, for example worse in the Southeast than the Northwest?
    5) Does this vary by urban vs. rural populations?
    6) How has this issue changed over time, was it always this way?

    Looking just at the intervention data you posted we see that black crime interventions vs white was 557.41 vs. 103.32 per 100,000 for 2016. There are a whole host of different possible explanations for that, enough that you could likely use that data to support just about any narrative you want if you don't do any further analysis. In order to understand that number you'd likely have to build a model that describes what variables lead to a police intervention and then gather data for each of those factors. To rule out or confirm various arguments you could do comparisons with various other country's results.

    As in many things this likely a multi-factor problem rather than a single cause. Just some obvious ones that spring to mind are effects of historical racism, implications of class and how the poor tend to experience more negative interactions with the police, militarization of the U.S. police force after the crime waves of the 80s-90s and anti-terrorism efforts post 9-11, impacts of the Nixon / Reagan war on drugs and how not all drugs are treated equally, ever increasing scope of policing as society asks them to fill too many roles after winding down state mental institutions & increased homelessness, etc. etc.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    As has been mentioned before, even statistics like that can be skewed. I've had cars stolen three times -- the same car was stolen twice by two different people (It was a Saturn, apparently pretty easy to hotwire). The one case where they caught the perpetrators, en route to Mexico, they were Hispanic. In another case, no one was caught, but judging by the neighborhood the car was found in, and certain items left in the car, the thieves were almost certainly white. In the last case, a Taurus stolen out of the parking lot of the apartments we lived in, we knew who the perpetrator was, he was white, and known to us. We identified him to the police. They couldn't be bothered to arrest him. Once the car was recovered, it was case closed as far as they were concerned.

    Had the thief been black, is it possible they would have pursued it with more interest? From what I've seen, I think it's very possible.
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    It is nice to see people hear presenting SOLID information contra to the media and leftist political narrative and not being called racist for it. It is solid information that, if it breaks through the emotional attachment to these issues, should give one pause. It did for me.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I remember seeing that when it came out. It made me sick to my stomach.
    Yes....I felt the same way when I saw the George Floyd footage. I did not see black and white, I saw clear abuse of power.


    In this thread I started to post vid of cops assaulting whites. I ended up down this internet rabbit hole of cops assaulting young kids associated with skateboarding. It is INSANE the amount of videos there are of things like this. I had to stop looking. Sure, a lot of them are wise-a$$es, but not very hard to choke out 13 yo kids. Really disgusting I guess it is not new-worthy though since it does not fit the narrative.

    Very similar to teachers' unions, the cops protect their own. Until it becomes unacceptable to behave like this REGARDLESS of the color of the perp, it will never end. I fear the 'race card' is distracting from the real issue. Blaming Floyd murder on race, I dont feel is addressing the REAL problem. It may make people 'feel' better. But lets actually try to identify and solve the root cause. When an incident happens to a black person, somhow it is ALWAYS labeled as race-related. Even when the cops are black, the mayors, the city councils, and chiefs of police. How is this helping?
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    Originally Posted by blue9steel View Post
    Looking just at the intervention data you posted we see that black crime interventions vs white was 557.41 vs. 103.32 per 100,000 for 2016. There are a whole host of different possible explanations for that, enough that you could likely use that data to support just about any narrative you want if you don't do any further analysis. In order to understand that number you'd likely have to build a model that describes what variables lead to a police intervention and then gather data for each of those factors. To rule out or confirm various arguments you could do comparisons with various other country's results.
    I am guessing that you are referring to the social and economic factors that may contribute to criminality. It is a valid discussion, but not really relevant to policing and has no bearing whether police are exercising racism when carrying out their duties. The cops have to deal with the populace as it is, regardless of the factors that created it.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Yes....I felt the same way when I saw the George Floyd footage. I did not see black and white, I saw clear abuse of power.


    In this thread I started to post vid of cops assaulting whites. I ended up down this internet rabbit hole of cops assaulting young kids associated with skateboarding. It is INSANE the amount of videos there are of things like this. I had to stop looking. Sure, a lot of them are wise-a$$es, but not very hard to choke out 13 yo kids. Really disgusting I guess it is not new-worthy though since it does not fit the narrative.

    Very similar to teachers' unions, the cops protect their own. Until it becomes unacceptable to behave like this REGARDLESS of the color of the perp, it will never end. I fear the 'race card' is distracting from the real issue. Blaming Floyd murder on race, I dont feel is addressing the REAL problem. It may make people 'feel' better. But lets actually try to identify and solve the root cause. When an incident happens to a black person, somhow it is ALWAYS labeled as race-related. Even when the cops are black, the mayors, the city councils, and chiefs of police. How is this helping?

    The race card won’t make anyone feel better, it’s a cheap shot of blame and only causes more anger. There are a handleful or more who are profitting off it though.
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    The race card won’t make anyone feel better, it’s a cheap shot of blame and only causes more anger. There are a handleful or more who are profitting off it though.

    "There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs"


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    Originally Posted by djdizzydave View Post
    Agreed.


    If we would stop bringing race into every little thing that happens, it would help in getting rid of it. But when rap and hip hop, and movies keeping talking racist ways, using language that they want "US" to stop using, then it won't die.

    If you substitute "US" with "others" there is a strong point to be made here.
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    If you substitute "US" with "others" there is a strong point to be made here.
    And here is the real key. I do think race is too often used as a proxy for just about everything wrong with society, which causes other issues to be largely ignored. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a real problem with racism in this society, and I believe that there's an underlying issue that can connect the simple bogeyman of racism with the other more nuanced and complex societal problems we're facing. We have identified all these groups of "other" in our society, and as long as one group has power and feels that power being threatened, they're going to be quick to either blame or block whoever the convenient "other" happens to be. If one "other" identification is taken away from them, they can always substitute another.

    Traditionally, the "other" was those of different race or nationality, especially blacks but often imposed on Asians, Irish, Italians, and Jews. More recently it's been people of Arab or Iranian descent. Other "others" are available too, though: gays, transgenders, liberals, conservatives, Republicans, Democrats, religious groups, environmentalists, industrialists, government workers, the unemployed, men, women, short people, tall people, rich people, poor people, muscular people, fat people, blonde people... the list can go on and on. It can expand infinitely.

    People are tribal by nature, they strongly tend to self-identify with certain groups, and ascribe virtue to those groups they adopt, or are adopted by. They then ascribe evil to those groups they feel oppose their own, or threaten their social position.

    It's all tribal -- political rivalries, religious rivalries, sports rivalries, philosophical rivalries, Mac vs Windows rivalries, gang rivalries -- they all come from essentially the same source. It can devolve into racism, nationalism, sexism, regionalism, or any number of other isms. But it's all ultimately tribalism. I've felt for a long time now that tribalism is the root of all social evil. It's also deeply embedded in our nature. We need to do what we can to surgically remove it.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    And here is the real key. I do think race is too often used as a proxy for just about everything wrong with society, which causes other issues to be largely ignored. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a real problem with racism in this society, and I believe that there's an underlying issue that can connect the simple bogeyman of racism with the other more nuanced and complex societal problems we're facing. We have identified all these groups of "other" in our society, and as long as one group has power and feels that power being threatened, they're going to be quick to either blame or block whoever the convenient "other" happens to be. If one "other" identification is taken away from them, they can always substitute another.

    Traditionally, the "other" was those of different race or nationality, especially blacks but often imposed on Asians, Irish, Italians, and Jews. More recently it's been people of Arab or Iranian descent. Other "others" are available too, though: gays, transgenders, liberals, conservatives, Republicans, Democrats, religious groups, environmentalists, industrialists, government workers, the unemployed, men, women, short people, tall people, rich people, poor people, muscular people, fat people, blonde people... the list can go on and on. It can expand infinitely.

    People are tribal by nature, they strongly tend to self-identify with certain groups, and ascribe virtue to those groups they adopt, or are adopted by. They then ascribe evil to those groups they feel oppose their own, or threaten their social position.

    It's all tribal -- political rivalries, religious rivalries, sports rivalries, philosophical rivalries, Mac vs Windows rivalries, gang rivalries -- they all come from essentially the same source. It can devolve into racism, nationalism, sexism, regionalism, or any number of other isms. But it's all ultimately tribalism. I've felt for a long time now that tribalism is the root of all social evil. It's also deeply embedded in our nature. We need to do what we can to surgically remove it.
    Holy Jesus Elrond, I am not getting into it that deep. Substitute it with whatever word that suits your fancy or fits.

    I believe djdizzydave is referring to the use of the "N" word. If i am wrong correct me dave. Not all but some blacks and some hispanics throw the word around like it's confetti. It is in songs and movies like he mentioned. I think that was the point he was making.
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    Bluesteel and El, you guys forget about the police pushing the 75 year old WHITE guy?

    And did you see the vid of the Black guy in NY who decided just out of the blue knock over a 92 year old white lady on Walker and just kept walking? He slapped her head, and fell into a hyraint, guess what that scumbag had been arrested over 100 times and he was released by the “hero” big bird during the pandemic, he wasn’t supposed to be released cause of his crimes.

    If the system is so racist how this guy get out of jail 100 times, you guys are ridiculous.

    There may be individual racists, there will always be, and they are not all white eithier.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    So over the past few weeks on this website every guy who doesnt "appear"to want change or evolution in policing brings up data; which I am normally in agreement with for most things but this is a perception issue as well.
    Maybe choking is the norm, maybe shooting in the back is common and maybe having the DA cover for you and your son for 2 months is common in 2020,but their is a perception of fairness issue.
    So when you talk to anyone who is AFAM in their 70s and 80s they inevitably have a story about police terrorizing them during their lifetime in various ways and methods. Now you may not agree with their analysis but they are free to see things through their own lifetime lenses. Again a perception issue.

    Just dont be surprised if your glorious happy time with Andy Griffith, Barney Fife,and Matlock differ from other citizens in the country. And recall people in their 70s and 80s were not rap fans, thugs, or any other stereotypical lazy names thrown at anyone who complains about overly harsh treatment by law enforcement. Can you imagine if we had bodycam since the 50'S, what that might reveal?
    Sounds like you are up for reparations regardless if you had anything to do with anyone being treated wrongly. Muh white privilege and all ya know...
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    Originally Posted by mtpockets View Post
    Holy Jesus Elrond, I am not getting into it that deep.
    I know you're not, but it triggered me!
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    I know you're not, but it triggered me!
    Ha ha, ok that is fair and for the record, I agree with your triggered response.
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