Kabuki Strength Transformer Bar Review...not a Coop Review

[Mitcho7]

Anyone else think that bar looks kind of odd and why with the long handles?
Realistically who is going to need to change settings that much? I get what they are trying to show but not sure it's that valid. Most people are going to set the bar as they need it at the start of the session and that will be it.
Then rinse and repeat next session etc.
I cant see the uptake being that high at the price point they will be after. I've never even heard of the company prior to them being mentioned in this thread.

[GamecockLifter]

Possibly, hopefully it's not much more than the transformer bar. If it can replace the traditional SSB and add the low bar option, that makes it worthwhile IMO. They didn't say anything about a front-squat setting but if there's one, that would make it very tempting.

According to Kaz, there is a front squat setting.

[Stinkape]

According to Kaz, there is a front squat setting.

From what I understand its a simulated Front squat (with the Front squat setting) the bar stays on your back and forces you forward, I don't think you can have the bar in the front.

[MGM711]

Possibly, hopefully it's not much more than the transformer bar. If it can replace the traditional SSB and add the low bar option, that makes it worthwhile IMO. They didn't say anything about a front-squat setting but if there's one, that would make it very tempting.

I was hoping for a general idea of price, but when they said they still had to tweak a few things, I knew we weren't going to get an idea of price yet. My guess it will be in the $900 range, hopefully they have a preorder sale that may bring the price down a bit.

[MGM711]

From what I understand its a simulated Front squat (with the Front squat setting) the bar stays on your back and forces you forward, I don't think you can have the bar in the front.

I would assume the setting would be similar to how the Transformer Bar replicates a Front Squat which would be sweeping the sleeves pretty much all the way forward even though the bar still sits on the back. I really like this setting and the KB settings on TB a lot.

[MGM711]

Anyone else think that bar looks kind of odd and why with the long handles?
Realistically who is going to need to change settings that much? I get what they are trying to show but not sure it's that valid. Most people are going to set the bar as they need it at the start of the session and that will be it.
Then rinse and repeat next session etc.
I cant see the uptake being that high at the price point they will be after. I've never even heard of the company prior to them being mentioned in this thread.

Prime is a pretty big company, surprised you never heard of them. They bought the rights to the old Strive line and have integrated that design into their machines. They are a very forward thinking company with their product design.

As far as the ability to easily change positions like they were doing, I agree with you, most people will never do that, I think they were just trying to prove a point that it was very easy to adjust, and notice, they compared it to the TB V3, not V4, to prove how much easier their design was to adjust. I've said this before, I'm pretty sure that KS decided to redesign the TB V4 because of this Prime SSB and how it was going to adjust. I would say KS dodged a bullet by releasing their redesign before this was released, they will certainly sell a few more TB as a result.

All that said about ease of adjustment, it's great to make the process easier to adjust if you can, but nobody needs to pay up to have easier adjustments so that you can switch bar position settings set to set, that's seems ridiculous. I can see setting it up to whatever position and just leaving it, not saying there isn't a value in making that process easier, but you certainly don't need to pay up for that. All these complaints about TB V3 being so difficult to adjust are totally overblown, V3 isn't tough to adjust, takes a couple minutes, prior to training, nobody needs to adjust from one position to the next within the same workout, that's stupid, but at least KS made the update and brought prices down not up, which was very smart with this Prime SSB lurking in the background.

[MGM711]

I absolutely can't wait for Coop's review of this new Prime SSB. He was pretty glowing for the Prime HLP Rack, rightfully so, that is a really badass piece, and I'm sure he will be on his knees about this new one as well. Let me guess, the review will go something like this, Prime SSB, greatest specialty bar ever created, as long as you can afford it...

[ncsuLuke]

lol at Duffin getting all pissy about Prime needing to talk to a patent attorney. I think the Prime bar looks pretty interesting, if they have some sort of pre-order sale I might jump on it because I hate money now and one of these bars could be nice to have. I think the KS bar is probably pretty decent now with the changes but something about that company rubs me the wrong way so I am always going to be skeptical before dropping a bunch of money on their stuff.

[GamecockLifter]

lol at Duffin getting all pissy about Prime needing to talk to a patent attorney. I think the Prime bar looks pretty interesting, if they have some sort of pre-order sale I might jump on it because I hate money now and one of these bars could be nice to have. I think the KS bar is probably pretty decent now with the changes but something about that company rubs me the wrong way so I am always going to be skeptical before dropping a bunch of money on their stuff.

It’s not like KS came out with v4 and then prime rushed to the drawing board and came out with a very refined bar in 2 weeks. They’ve had the prototype since February. I doubt prime has much of an issue bringing this to market.

[Mech6]

lol at Duffin getting all pissy about Prime needing to talk to a patent attorney

Where did you see that?

[ncsuLuke]

Where did you see that?

Adam's post on Instagram, Duffin commented on it, "I would suggest someone might check with their patent attorney before taking this to market...."

https://www.instagram.com/p/CDEPoMQAzNw/

[MGM711]

It’s not like KS came out with v4 and then prime rushed to the drawing board and came out with a very refined bar in 2 weeks. They’ve had the prototype since February. I doubt prime has much of an issue bringing this to market.

Duffin is going to look like a real idiot here. His patent doesn't protect concepts or ideas, it protects designs. KS adjusts at the sleeve, Prime adjusts at the yolk/shoulders, it's two completely different adjustment mechanisms. Not too mention, the camber angles of the bar are different and I'd make a bet that each setting is going to be slightly different as well. Plus, Prime isn't stupid, they're a much larger company than KS, they know what they're getting into and exactly how they needed to work around whatever patent applied to the TB.

[murphyreedus]

Duffin is going to look like a real idiot here. His patent doesn't protect concepts or ideas, it protects designs. KS adjusts at the sleeve, Prime adjusts at the yolk/shoulders, it's two completely different adjustment mechanisms. Not too mention, the camber angles of the bar are different and I'd make a bet that each setting is going to be slightly different as well. Plus, Prime isn't stupid, they're a much larger company than KS, they know what they're getting into and exactly how they needed to work around whatever patent applied to the TB.

Seems like if he actually felt he had a case he'd be posting something more like "My attorney is mailing you a notice of our pending patent application." Even if Duffin could make a case, if he is granted a patent is he really going to get into a years long expensive legal battle where he'd at best recoup on the small number of these that Prime sells (since we know they aren't going to be cheap)?

It would be hilarious if Prime applied for a patent on their design before he did on his.

[MGM711]

Seems like if he actually felt he had a case he'd be posting something more like "My attorney is mailing you a notice of our pending patent application." Even if Duffin could make a case, if he is granted a patent is he really going to get into a years long expensive legal battle where he'd at best recoup on the small number of these that Prime sells (since we know they aren't going to be cheap)?

It would be hilarious if Prime applied for a patent on their design before he did on his.

At best case Duffin can delay the release and sell a few more TB before the Prime SSB is released, but if Prime really wanted to play games, they would drop the price on theirs and take all the sales away from KS. It's not the game Duffin should be engaging in, Prime can go to court and totally bleed out KS as a company if they wanted. Plus, Prime claims they have had this design since 2019, so not sure how Duffin is going to say they copied his design when his pull-pin, adjustable sleeve design just came out less than a month ago. This should be entertaining, but if I were Prime, I wouldn't even blink an eye over this.

[Stinkape]

At best case Duffin can delay the release and sell a few more TB before the Prime SSB is released, but if Prime really wanted to play games, they would drop the price on theirs and take all the sales away from KS. It's not the game Duffin should be engaging in, Prime can go to court and totally bleed out KS as a company if they wanted. Plus, Prime claims they have had this design since 2019, so not sure how Duffin is going to say they copied his design when his pull-pin, adjustable sleeve design just came out less than a month ago. This should be entertaining, but if I were Prime, I wouldn't even blink an eye over this.

Marrs Bar also commented that they borrowed from there original design and glad to help. Not sure if that was a dig or sarcasm or actually glad to have helped. Lol!

[MGM711]

Marrs Bar also commented that they borrowed from there original design and glad to help. Not sure if that was a dig or sarcasm or actually glad to have helped. Lol!

I noticed that Marrs mentioned that as well and I didn't think it came across as sarcasm, I think they were genuinely ok with whatever aspect Prime decided to use. I've also seen the Marrs patent and much of it is about the wrap around yolk design and bar placement where it attaches to the yolk. I was curious to see the patent because I was shocked that another company like Titan hadn't already cloned the design, but after seeing the patent, it makes it nearly impossible to clone the Marrs Bar, and I think they must feel ok with whatever Prime is doing with this bar. Personally, I feel like the Marrs Bar can and will stand on it's own and I don't see this Prime bar really eating much into their sales.

[GamecockLifter]

I noticed that Marrs mentioned that as well and I didn't think it came across as sarcasm, I think they were genuinely ok with whatever aspect Prime decided to use. I've also seen the Marrs patent and much of it is about the wrap around yolk design and bar placement where it attaches to the yolk. I was curious to see the patent because I was shocked that another company like Titan hadn't already cloned the design, but after seeing the patent, it makes it nearly impossible to clone the Marrs Bar, and I think they must feel ok with whatever Prime is doing with this bar. Personally, I feel like the Marrs Bar can and will stand on it's own and I don't see this Prime bar really eating much into their sales.

From what I gather, Marrs is looking at patent infringement also, on the basis that prime put the camber of their bar inside the rack.

[radrd]

From what I gather, Marrs is looking at patent infringement also, on the basis that prime put the camber of their bar inside the rack.

I wonder if Eleiko is going to sue everyone who made an open trap bar, assuming they even came up with the idea. As long as products aren't an exact clone, I don't agree with legal action like this.

[ShockDaMuscles]

I noticed that Marrs mentioned that as well and I didn't think it came across as sarcasm, I think they were genuinely ok with whatever aspect Prime decided to use. I've also seen the Marrs patent and much of it is about the wrap around yolk design and bar placement where it attaches to the yolk. I was curious to see the patent because I was shocked that another company like Titan hadn't already cloned the design, but after seeing the patent, it makes it nearly impossible to clone the Marrs Bar, and I think they must feel ok with whatever Prime is doing with this bar. Personally, I feel like the Marrs Bar can and will stand on it's own and I don't see this Prime bar really eating much into their sales.

Power-Lift has a bar that looks a lot like the Marrs Bar. When I first saw the Marrs Bar, I immediately thought of the Power-Lift bar. I haven't seen the Marrs Bar patent or what design aspect it protects, but they look very similar in terms of how they rest on the shoulder and the weight distribution.

Not sure how long the Power-Lift bar has been around, the video below is from Jan 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K07axgQwbA

[MGM711]

Power-Lift has a bar that looks a lot like the Marrs Bar. When I first saw the Marrs Bar, I immediately thought of the Power-Lift bar. I haven't seen the Marrs Bar patent or what design aspect it protects, but they look very similar in terms of how they rest on the shoulder and the weight distribution.

Not sure how long the Power-Lift bar has been around, the video below is from Jan 2016.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K07axgQwbA

No, the PowerLift/Mastiff SSB is nothing like the Marrs Bar. I owned one years back before they had the rack mounted version. I would say the PL SSB is more like a Spider Bar than anything else.

[MGM711]

From what I gather, Marrs is looking at patent infringement also, on the basis that prime put the camber of their bar inside the rack.

The only way Marrs would have a claim is if the camber angle is exactly the same, and the bar doesn't connect into the wrap around yolk in the same way which was a big part of Marrs patent, so I'm not sure how Prime would have infringed on the design. Only thing I could come up with would be they're going to simply try and delay Prime's release so they can squeeze out a few more sales of Marrs Bars. But like I said, I don't see many people who've decided to go with Marrs Bar bailing out all of a sudden for this Prime bar, maybe a few, but I think Marrs is more unique and it can stand on its own.

[GamecockLifter]

The only way Marrs would have a claim is if the camber angle is exactly the same, and the bar doesn't connect into the wrap around yolk in the same way which was a big part of Marrs patent, so I'm not sure how Prime would have infringed on the design. Only thing I could come up with would be they're going to simply try and delay Prime's release so they can squeeze out a few more sales of Marrs Bars. But like I said, I don't see many people who've decided to go with Marrs Bar bailing out all of a sudden for this Prime bar, maybe a few, but I think Marrs is more unique and it can stand on its own.

I agree.

[ncsuLuke]

The only way Marrs would have a claim is if the camber angle is exactly the same, and the bar doesn't connect into the wrap around yolk in the same way which was a big part of Marrs patent, so I'm not sure how Prime would have infringed on the design. Only thing I could come up with would be they're going to simply try and delay Prime's release so they can squeeze out a few more sales of Marrs Bars. But like I said, I don't see many people who've decided to go with Marrs Bar bailing out all of a sudden for this Prime bar, maybe a few, but I think Marrs is more unique and it can stand on its own.

I certainly wouldn't think Marrs would have the deep pockets to make it much of a legal fight unless they have an airtight case. Seems like both Marrs and KS might just be posturing but I'm sure a company like Prime would have at least taken into consideration any patents. It's not like this is the first piece of equipment they've designed.

[MGM711]

I certainly wouldn't think Marrs would have the deep pockets to make it much of a legal fight unless they have an airtight case. Seems like both Marrs and KS might just be posturing but I'm sure a company like Prime would have at least taken into consideration any patents. It's not like this is the first piece of equipment they've designed.

Here's the deal, Marrs actually has a patent, a pretty detailed patent actually, Kabuki does not, not from what I can see. I've seen "patent pending" attached to the Transformer Bar for a years now, so not sure why it hasn't produced an official patent yet? And, KS advertised the TB as "patent pending" for both V3 and now V4, are they trying to patent two different versions, or are they trying to update a version that hasn't even received patent approval yet? Without seeing the Marrs Bar directly next to the new Prime SSB, it's possible that Prime has maybe infringed on the camber angle and distance away from shoulder on one of the settings, both are very spelled out in Marrs patent. That could be all I can come up with as far as Marrs having a beef, the rest of the Marrs patent would not apply to what Prime has done. The only thing I can see KS trying to patent right now would be the adjustable sleeve mechanism, Prime has an adjustable yolk, so there couldn't possibly be any infringement in design, and like I said before, patents are very specific, they don't protect concepts or ideas, they protect designs. At best case, Marrs and KS are possibly trying to delay a release to sell more units, and personally, I think both Marrs and even TB to an extent are different enough that they target different markets. I think all 3 can and will have a place in the SSB market potentially, we will just have to wait and see what Prime's price point will be.

[ncsuLuke]

Here's the deal, Marrs actually has a patent, a pretty detailed patent actually, Kabuki does not, not from what I can see. I've seen "patent pending" attached to the Transformer Bar for a years now, so not sure why it hasn't produced an official patent yet? And, KS advertised the TB as "patent pending" for both V3 and now V4, are they trying to patent two different versions, or are they trying to update a version that hasn't even received patent approval yet? Without seeing the Marrs Bar directly next to the new Prime SSB, it's possible that Prime has maybe infringed on the camber angle and distance away from shoulder on one of the settings, both are very spelled out in Marrs patent. That could be all I can come up with as far as Marrs having a beef, the rest of the Marrs patent would not apply to what Prime has done. The only thing I can see KS trying to patent right now would be the adjustable sleeve mechanism, Prime has an adjustable yolk, so there couldn't possibly be any infringement in design, and like I said before, patents are very specific, they don't protect concepts or ideas, they protect designs. At best case, Marrs and KS are possibly trying to delay a release to sell more units, and personally, I think both Marrs and even TB to an extent are different enough that they target different markets. I think all 3 can and will have a place in the SSB market potentially, we will just have to wait and see what Prime's price point will be.

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info. I tried to look for a KS patent but couldn't find one but I am certainly no expert in that regard so I figured I probably didn't know what I was doing. I can say that personally I have no interest in a Marrs bar but the new KS bar had some appeal to me but I would probably buy the Prime one instead as long as the price difference isn't insane but that's just personal feelings on Prime vs KS in general (I also don't really care for how the sleeves are adjustable on the KS bar).

TBH I don't need either, I get plenty of good work in with my belt squat and regular barbell squats but when has need been a factor around here?

[MGM711]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info. I tried to look for a KS patent but couldn't find one but I am certainly no expert in that regard so I figured I probably didn't know what I was doing. I can say that personally I have no interest in a Marrs bar but the new KS bar had some appeal to me but I would probably buy the Prime one instead as long as the price difference isn't insane but that's just personal feelings on Prime vs KS in general (I also don't really care for how the sleeves are adjustable on the KS bar).

TBH I don't need either, I get plenty of good work in with my belt squat and regular barbell squats but when has need been a factor around here?

I think what's it's going to come down to between KS TB and Prime SSB is whether or not you want or need potentially 24 different squat variation positions or if 8 is good enough? I would say that I have tried just about 20 positions with the TB V3 and some of the differences are slight from one sleeve position to the other, so not sure if 24 is an accurate working number, but the point is, there's plenty of variation with the TB and that may very well be what some people are looking for. Bottom line, it's going to be really hard trying to compare these right now without knowing the price Prime will be launching at, but in general, their prices are high and they don't seem to care how many units they sell based on their price from my dealings with them. If they price it where I think they plan on coming to market at, I don't think it will be a great seller, but they can sure make it interesting if they want to take on KS in this market and price under the TB.

[MGM711]

So, I really wanted to give this new padding some time and went back and tried all the different setting to see how it performed before posting my overall thoughts on the bar. The padding certainly made a difference, but I believe that I still arrived at virtually the same feeling as I did pre padding swap.

First, let's discuss the positives about this bar. To me, the number one thing about this bar is huge amount of variation you get with it. Essentially there's 5 adjustment angles with 4 sleeves positions for each angle giving you 20 usable positions on this bar. For some this will be a huge positive and to others, this could actually be a negative. Are all 20 positions truly usable, I will say yes, however some of the variation in sleeve position don't really feel all that different, but I can safely say at least 10 of these positions will work for most people. I would say that the Front Squat and Kettlebell positions were the most unique to me, and most usable were the Back Squat, Camber Squat, and what I'd call a hybrid of those two positions. Someone asked if I tried any of the settings that were not recommended and I did, but they aren't all that useful IMO, but they're there if someone wanted to use them even though looking at the new design, they did away with them which I found interesting.

The next thing I really liked about this bar is the portability and how easy it is to move in and out of the rack. It's 45lbs, breaks down easy and can be stored a number of different ways. For the most part, I was never a fan of moving other SSBs in and out of the rack, but I have no issues with this one at all and not having that extra 20lbs is a big deal.

I also really like the look of the bar with the black oxide, the tiger striping, at least on mine looks really sharp, and I haven't had any issues with rusting like some have complained about. The new padding KS sent me with the logo on the padding dresses up the bar big time.

I personally don't have one issue with the adjustability of V3. While I wouldn't say it's perfect or easy, it isn't nearly as difficult as Coop makes it out, in fact it's very easy to adjust if you lay it flat on a bench. I put mine on my Reverse Hyper and adjust each side, it's really not difficult, could certainly be easier, but not tough, don't believe the fake Coop news.

Now for the cons...as stated right from the beginning when I got this bar, I'm just not a fan of the yolk design and feel. Yes, the new padding was a massive upgrade, but just comparing this bar with other similar SSBs, the yolk IMO is just not right. I personally think having thicker padding could help a lot of what I don't like about it, but ultimately, it just doesn't have that feeling of security like say it Crep would feel on your back. I would never worry about a Crep coming off my back whether it was unloaded, or loaded with my max, even with no hands on the bar. I never really have that feeling with this Transformer Bar even though the new padding does make it sit way better in most of the settings now.

The next thing that really bothers me are the handles, specifically, the handle length. I get why they have them because they are necessary with some of the settings, but they absolutely should have made a screw in attachment if you wanted or needed them longer. Ironically, if you put this bar in the SSB position, the handle length will cut your ROM, at least if you're a larger person, you either cut your range or you need to adjust your stance width and squat style to get rock bottom.

The last con worth mentioning is the adjustment screw does not allow plates to sit flush all the way to the end of the sleeve. This caused quite a bit of plate slop which just felt weird, it especially felt worse when adding chains during speed squats. That said, it's not that big of a deal and there's a bit of a hack if you don't mind placing a set of small collars all the way in to the end of the sleeve, then put your plates on. This allows a flush connection to the collar and eliminates most of the plates slop. I just leave a set of collars on there now and don't really think about it anymore.

For me, the cons are real and they bother me, but having the flexibility to adjust this bar 20 different ways is a big win for me.

[MGM711]

So, the big question...would I recommend this bar? My answer is it depends.

First off, even though this bar fits my description of a SSB, I really don't think of it as a SSB, in fact, I'd say the SSB setting is probably the worst of the settings and hardest to use at least for me. I would say that the Crep, SS Yolk, and Titan SSB V2 are better at the SSB position than this bar, I may even throw in the Marrs Bar here as well. That said, the TB gives you a SSB like feel but just doesn't have the no-hands security that nearly every other SSB I've ever used has. So I'd say if you're primarily looking for a SSB to do mainly Hatfield work, this one likely isn't for you even though it can do Hatfield style in some of the other positions.

I basically would classify this bar as the ultimate squat variation bar. This could be great for some and absolutely terrible for others. This bar is great for those who have a lot of years of training under their belt who need variation in their training or anyone who trains conjugate on a regular basis. It's also great for those who have tight shoulders and bad elbows who want to get the training effect of different barbell positions without making their shoulder and elbow issues worse. This bar isn't worth getting for guys who haven't trained much and can't feel or benefit by these adjustment differences. I've had my son use it a few times, and he is stronger by classification than most, but he'd didn't do well with this bar and he'd probably be better off using my SS Yolk later when the time is right since it has one fixed position to learn.

Now, even if you feel this bar could be for you, the price can very much make this a moot point. This bar was once priced at $650 plus tax and shipping which put it over $800-$850 for most people. It's really hard to recommend at that level of commitment as a must have item. I would just say that if you have the means financially and you fit the description, by all means, I'd recommend this bar.

The next question would be is upgrading to the new bar the right thing to do? I will say that the new adjuster is certainly a design improvement, and just by judging the reaction of the new release, seems like more people are now interested in getting this bar with the new adjuster. I also think dropping the price $50 was a good move, but that really only covered the new increase in shipping prices, so just know that you aren't really saving anything if you decide to buy. Me personally, I'm not sure I can justify recommending $750-$800 on this bar even though I really like it. I would say if you can source a V3 for cheaper in the $550-$600 range, that's likely a smarter buy as you can everything this V4 can do and have a little extra cash in your pocket to get something else. I also think the V3 looks better. KS bright zinc is not all that great. I owned a zinc Duffalo bar and the zinc was really bad quality and did not like the yellowing and marking that it showed as it aged. I would assume the new TB V4 would do the exact same over time, and that is enough for me to pass on.

So there it is, it's a great bar for some, but certainly not something I'd recommend for everyone, especially at the price.

[glossyMac17]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts MGM711.

As someone who squats solely with a SSB, the Transformer Bar has always been on my wish/maybe list. The new design is enticing but with the new Prime SSB around the corner as well the Marrs Bar (both bars interestingly distribute the load further down the back compared with other SSB designs) I'm still on the fence.

[MGM711]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts MGM711.

As someone who squats solely with a SSB, the Transformer Bar has always been on my wish/maybe list. The new design is enticing but with the new Prime SSB around the corner as well the Marrs Bar (both bars interestingly distribute the load further down the back compared with other SSB designs) I'm still on the fence.

I'm really curious to see where the price point on this new Prime SSB will be. You would think that Prime would price it somewhat close to their trap bar which would be around $900 or so. While I'm sure their design will be great, I just can't see there being a large demand for this bar at that price. I personally would prefer the TB V4 with the lighter weight and more adjustments, but really tough to say without the Prime being released yet.