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  1. #31
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ramoneb87 View Post
    I feel/think that the people posted outside their business with guns are doing it wrong. I think they need to be posted inside the building with their firearms. For one they are in the open and in public space, a threat could easily close the distance and surround you before before acting in a threatening manner. What if they leave you alone but break in a window or kick down a door to enter your business, are you justified in shooting, and at what distance. Armed shop owners outside a building is a good deterence to looters and vandals but if a situation arises where the fire arms are actually needed they are putting themselves at a disadvantage tactitcally.

    If you are inside the building and someone commits forceful entry and trespassing it would be much easier to justify lethal force, especially if the tool they used to break down a door or window is easily construed as a weapon.
    Yep so much nuance. Outside is a better deterrent but worse tactically.

    Deterrence would likely be superior vs looters you would want a tactical position vs people you know are looking to kill you.
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  2. #32
    a true savage Procta's Avatar
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    its gonna vary but situation and state

    first off Id try to avoid any area that would put myself in a situation

    Here in FL we have a Castle law and a very favorable Stand Your Ground law

    Cant use lethal force protecting property other than forced entry into my home / occupied vehicle
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  3. #33
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    its gonna vary but situation and state

    first off Id try to avoid any area that would put myself in a situation

    Here in FL we have a Castle law and a very favorable Stand Your Ground law

    Cant use lethal force protecting property other than forced entry into my home / occupied vehicle
    If it hasn’t changed since Zimmerman what FL really has is a super low threshold to assert self-defense which the state having a oddly high burden of proof it didn’t happen the way the defendant would claim. Of course in the Zimmerman situation the only other witness was dead ....
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  4. #34
    a true savage Procta's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    If it hasn’t changed since Zimmerman what FL really has is a super low threshold to assert self-defense which the state having a oddly high burden of proof it didn’t happen the way the defendant would claim. Of course in the Zimmerman situation the only other witness was dead ....
    you blatantly lie in every thread? there were multiple witnesses who testified
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  5. #35
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    you blatantly lie in every thread? there were multiple witnesses who testified
    Wait what? There were people who witnessed Zimmerman pulling the trigger?

    Edit: all be damned, it appears there was at least one person who says they saw it.

    My bad. And since I’m very much not a liar I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    If it’s that important and you have the funds to hire guards etc., you should really consider paying a local crim lawyer a couple hundred bucks to get a short memo about what force can be used where under what circumstances. It would really suck to end up being the ones in trouble because the law wasn’t completely understood.
    Probably would be a good idea. Our community does have signs at the front gate that basically states that beyond the gate is private property and anyone without approval is trespassing. I'll snap a pic of it when I go out later today.

    Having said this, if **** were to actually hit the fan, I have 45 acres in hill country with prime hunting land that I will be bugging out to.
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  7. #37
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    If you are by your self (or with wife, kids).
    Stay inside with the doors closed and the lights on. If they force their way in shoot.
    If you are outside you can be mobbed, or seen as being the agressor.
    Also want to avoid the case where the home owner gets scared, overreacts and shoots people that are truly peaceful protestors.
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  8. #38
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jeffl1980 View Post
    Probably would be a good idea. Our community does have signs at the front gate that basically states that beyond the gate is private property and anyone without approval is trespassing. I'll snap a pic of it when I go out later today.

    Having said this, if **** were to actually hit the fan, I have 45 acres in hill country with prime hunting land that I will be bugging out to.
    Jelly. I live in the suburbs right next to a large US city. I’d also love to have my own hunting grounds.
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  9. #39
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    I wish I had gotten Elon Musk's flame thrower. Most people are dumb enough to challenge a bullet but no one will come close to someone wielding fire as a defensive weapon.
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  10. #40
    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Is it private property? If we're talking a gated neighborhood maybe, but I assumed we were talking about a normal area zoned for housing. There are public roads and sidewalks all over such an area. I don't see how you can restrict access to those.
    It's all about context.

    If you were to block off the ingress and egress of your neighborhood on some random Tuesday with plans to keep it like that forever, then no.. Absolutely not.

    However, if there's an active riot situation going on and you and everybody get together and decide to do it for the safety of the neighborhood - with full intention of opening it back up once it's over, then who TF is going to tell you not to?
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  11. #41
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    It's all about context.

    However, if there's an active riot situation going on and you and everybody get together and decide to do it for the safety of the neighborhood - with full intention of opening it back up once it's over, then who TF is going to tell you not to?
    Absolutely, context is super important. Again, not an expert here at all, but I just don't see this working out very well. If the barrier is challenged what are the people supposed to do? Shoot them? It would have to be a pretty special scenario for that to end up going well legally, let alone tactically.
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Absolutely, context is super important. Again, not an expert here at all, but I just don't see this working out very well. If the barrier is challenged what are the people supposed to do? Shoot them? It would have to be a pretty special scenario for that to end up going well legally, let alone tactically.
    Tactically there is no better position. That would make your neighborhood an extremely hard target, which is what you want. This is taught each and every single day in the military ffs..

    And if they challenge the barrier? Depends... what do they do? If they say "Little pig little pig let me in!" Then no...

    On the other hand, if they try to ram your barricade with a car then you light their asses up and don't stop lighting them up until they stop.
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  13. #43
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    Tactically there is no better position. That would make your neighborhood an extremely hard target, which is what you want. This is taught each and every single day in the military ffs..
    I said shooting people, not creating a barrier. I was very clear about that.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    I said shooting people, not creating a barrier. I was very clear about that.
    The barrier to a neighborhood was the whole point. You said you didn't know how it would be legal and I explained this thing called "context" to you.

    Then you asked what to do if the barrier was challenged...

    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Absolutely, context is super important. Again, not an expert here at all, but I just don't see this working out very well. If the barrier is challenged what are the people supposed to do? Shoot them? It would have to be a pretty special scenario for that to end up going well legally, let alone tactically.
    And I explained that to you too.
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  15. #45
    Registered User miscinbro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    The barrier to a neighborhood was the whole point. You said you didn't know how it would be legal and I explained this thing called "context" to you.

    Then you asked what to do if the barrier was challenged...

    And I explained that to you too.
    I'm not getting into a he said/she said situation with you over this. I feel I was clearly talking about shooting people that approach the barrier, guns are what the thread is about, and it's what I was talking about. I also thought we were having a decent and productive conversation here - there isn't any reason to get all hostile and insult me either.
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    📶 🔌🔋 99% LukeLissen's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Procta View Post
    its gonna vary but situation and state

    first off Id try to avoid any area that would put myself in a situation

    Here in FL we have a Castle law and a very favorable Stand Your Ground law

    Cant use lethal force protecting property other than forced entry into my home / occupied vehicle
    Fl's castle doctrine extends also to your place of business

    https://www.husseinandwebber.com/cas...Fla.,State%20v.


    Florida appellate courts recognized one major exception to the ‘duty of retreat’ rule. Known as the “Castle Doctrine,” this exception provided that, where the user of force was not the aggressor and was assaulted in his or her home, the user had no obligation to retreat. Pell v. State, 97 Fla. 650, 665 (Fla. 1929).

    Courts later applied the Castle Doctrine to include places of business, but declined to do so in cases involving co-occupants of dwellings and co-workers at a place of business. State v. Smith, 376 So. 2d 261 (Fla. 3d DCA 1979) (applying the Castle Doctrine to places of business); State v. Bobbitt, 415 So. 2d 724 (Fla. 1982) (declining to extend to co-occupants of a residence); Frazier v. Smith, 681 So. 2d 824, 825 (Fla. 2d DCA 1996) (holding that the doctrine was inapplicable to co-workers).

    While eliminating the obligation of retreat in a person’s home or place of business, the ‘Castle Doctrine’ nonetheless required the lawful owner or occupant to reasonably believe that force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily harm. Danford v. State, 53 Fla. 4, 13 (Fla. 1907).
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    Having a firearm is great for certain situations, but in events such as this, having less lethal and non-lethal self defense tools can be a huge bonus.


    I recommend the largest cans of Sabre Red that you can legally carry in your jurisdiction. Defense Technology 1.3% is also excellent top-notch spray if you come across that.

    Spefically I recommend Sabre Red Crossfire in stream delivery and in MK-3.5 and MK-4 size cans. Get both sizes and multiple ones of each if you can.

    MK-4 - https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spra...re-stream-mk-4

    and google search for it - https://www.google.com/search?q=52CFT30



    MK-3.5 - https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spra...e-stream-mk-35

    and google search for it - https://www.google.com/search?q=52CFT20 however a bunch of results for gel also come up. get the stream 52CFT20 instead of the gel




    can sizes pic showing them side by side:



    The MK-3 and MK-4 are the two most popular for law enforcement, but IMO the MK-3.5 size is superior to the MK-3 - the MK-3.5 grips better and carries in a pocket better. I tape a metal pocket clip to mine, lined up with the nozzle. Tandy Leather Co. clip # 1238


    Make sure you look up the laws for your state on pepper spray. I can help if anyone needs it.
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    I'm not getting into a he said/she said situation with you over this. I feel I was clearly talking about shooting people that approach the barrier, guns are what the thread is about, and it's what I was talking about. I also thought we were having a decent and productive conversation here - there isn't any reason to get all hostile and insult me either.
    Insult??? Wtf?

    Thin skinned phaggot, I didn't insult you. JFC..

    And I explained to you about shooting people who approach the barrier. Depends on what they're doing... if they're asking for directions, then no. If they approach with guns drawn then they're hostile.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    Insult??? Wtf?

    Thin skinned phaggot, I didn't insult you. JFC..

    And I explained to you about shooting people who approach the barrier. Depends on what they're doing... if they're asking for directions, then no. If they approach with guns drawn then they're hostile.
    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    You said you didn't know how it would be legal and I explained this thing called "context" to you.
    Now you're being dishonest. No idea why though.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Now you're being dishonest. No idea why though.
    Because you're fuking stupid, that's why. That what you wanted to hear?

    You're such a liberal that you aren't even capable of having a rational discussion with your "enemy" are you.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    You're such a liberal that you aren't even capable of having a rational discussion with your "enemy" are you.
    Funny, I typed exactly the same thing about you but decided to delete it because I felt it was unnecessarily inflammatory and unhelpful. You got all weird on me first, and I'm yet to insult you, I even called out your lie in the most civil way I could. You've called me stupid and a phaggot now and are acting like you know everything about this, and I assure you that you do not. Meanwhile I've clearly tried to have a real discussion and freely admit I'm not an expert on this.

    Yet you think I'm the one incapable of having a conversation with someone who I disagree with on a number of other issues? Seems very odd to me.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Funny, I typed exactly the same thing about you but decided to delete it because I felt it was unnecessarily inflammatory and unhelpful. You got all weird on me first, and I'm yet to insult you, I even called out your lie in the most civil way I could. You've called me stupid and a phaggot now and are acting like you know everything about this, and I assure you that you do not. Meanwhile I've clearly tried to have a real discussion and freely admit I'm not an expert on this.

    Yet you think I'm the one incapable of having a conversation with someone who I disagree with on a number of other issues? Seems very odd to me.
    Correct. I absolutely called you a stupid phaggot after you accused me of insulting you when I clearly did not. Grow a thicker skin princess... How are you going to keep your family safe from rioters when you get pissy over perceived insults on the fuking internet?

    and are acting like you know everything about this, and I assure you that you do not.
    As far as the tactical side of it, I might not know "everything" but I promise you I know more than you. I wore a US Army uniform for over ten years, have served in both Military Police and Infantry units, and am a Desert Storm vet. Want to keep the neighborhood safe from rioters? Then yep... gotcha covered bro. This shiit is taught to 18 year old kids in basic training ffs.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    As far as the tactical side of it, I might not know "everything" but I promise you I know more than you. I wore a US Army uniform for over ten years, have served in both Military Police and Infantry units, and am a Desert Storm vet. Want to keep the neighborhood safe from rioters? Then yep... gotcha covered bro. This shiit is taught to 18 year old kids in basic training ffs.
    And I appreciate that, I have some training, but very basic stuff. It's too bad we couldn't talk rationally I would have liked your input.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    And I appreciate that, I have some training, but very basic stuff. It's too bad we couldn't talk rationally I would have liked your input.
    I was giving you my input.

    No idea why you got pissy and accused me of insulting you though.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    You still have the right to defend yourself outside.

    And in your crowd scenario, a "crowd" of people coming at you would in fact constitute a threat IMO. Especially given the circumstances of a riot... But you can't let a hostile crowd swarm you. No way would that ever end well.
    This is accurate. But it depends on where you live. If you live in San Francisco, just move. No self respecting man should live in a Leftist hellhole city. If you live in a Conservative state then by all means, defend yourself when you feel in danger for your life. Place yourself in between the degenerate communist animals and your property, so that your life must be threatened to get to your property, and you're golden. Shoot to kill
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    Originally Posted by RagnarChadbrok View Post
    This is accurate. But it depends on where you live. If you live in San Francisco, just move. No self respecting man should live in a Leftist hellhole city. If you live in a Conservative state then by all means, defend yourself when you feel in danger for your life. Place yourself in between the degenerate communist animals and your property, so that your life must be threatened to get to your property, and you're golden. Shoot to kill
    Speaking in general terms self-defense claims are going to be hugely complicated (potentially totally off the table) if you're going out of your way to be threatened.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Speaking in general terms self-defense claims are going to be hugely complicated (potentially totally off the table) if you're going out of your way to be threatened.
    Defending your property is valid. If someone attempts to steal your property, it is not your responsibility to run and let them take it. Granted if you sniped someone from across the street as they tried to enter your store, you would probably go to prison. That is why you should be in front of your store.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Speaking in general terms self-defense claims are going to be hugely complicated (potentially totally off the table) if you're going out of your way to be threatened.
    Ok... before we get into it again, and just for clarification, I am NOT insulting you.

    Now.. Doing what you have to do to keep your neighborhood safe during a riot is never "going out of your way to be threatened." The riot is already happening and the threat is already there, right? All you're doing is keeping the wolf at bay..
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    I would recommend every gun owner have some kind of legal advocate on retainer, for example I use Texas LawShield. That way if anything happens, you call them and then shut the **** up and have a network of attorneys that provide defense in court, bail & bond, etc.
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    Originally Posted by jeffl1980 View Post
    Probably would be a good idea. Our community does have signs at the front gate that basically states that beyond the gate is private property and anyone without approval is trespassing. I'll snap a pic of it when I go out later today.

    Having said this, if **** were to actually hit the fan, I have 45 acres in hill country with prime hunting land that I will be bugging out to.
    Brooo... 45 acres of prime hunting land in the hill country?!

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