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  1. #1
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    ITT we talk about firearm defense scenarios in the age of mass riots

    Seeing some people standing guard over their bushiness or neighborhoods with firearms got me thinking about justified shooting scenarios that may play out in the future.

    What are the rules of engagement regarding defending a storefront when can you legally shoot?

    What happens if you and others are guarding entrance to a neighborhood and a crowd pressures you and tries to come through your barricade?

    What legal grounds are there to form civilian defense forces for residential property and the rules they have to follow to operate legally?

    It seems much more concrete regarding defending yourself with lethal force if someone enters your business or enters your home but what about street or neighborhood scenarios?

    It seems a lot will revolve around legitimate fear for life arguments vs duty to retreat. Does an angry mob marching on your position qualify as a fear for your life situation?
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    Jacques Rhott Bushmaster's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Seeing some people standing guard over their bushiness or neighborhoods with firearms got me thinking about justified shooting scenarios that may play out in the future.

    What are the rules of engagement regarding defending a storefront when can you legally shoot?

    What happens if you and others are guarding entrance to a neighborhood and a crowd pressures you and tries to come through your barricade?

    What legal grounds are there to form civilian defense forces for residential property and the rules they have to follow to operate legally?

    It seems much more concrete regarding defending yourself with lethal force if someone enters your business or enters your home but what about street or neighborhood scenarios?
    You still have the right to defend yourself outside.

    And in your crowd scenario, a "crowd" of people coming at you would in fact constitute a threat IMO. Especially given the circumstances of a riot... But you can't let a hostile crowd swarm you. No way would that ever end well.
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  3. #3
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    You still have the right to defend yourself outside.

    And in your crowd scenario, a "crowd" of people coming at you would in fact constitute a threat IMO. Especially given the circumstances of a riot... But you can't let a hostile crowd swarm you. No way would that ever end well.
    Absolutely but there is a ton of grey area here.

    What duty do you have to retreat?
    What warning if any do you have to give the advancing mob?
    Can you legally barricade a neighborhood entrance during a city riot?
    Can you defend that position lethally just because of an advancing group of people or do they have to physically engage you first?

    A lot of nuances. This is even more important in Dem controlled areas because the DAs will have raging hard-ons looking to lock up anyone they can paint as a radical on the opposite side of their cause.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Seeing some people standing guard over their bushiness or neighborhoods with firearms got me thinking about justified shooting scenarios that may play out in the future.

    What are the rules of engagement regarding defending a storefront when can you legally shoot?

    What happens if you and others are guarding entrance to a neighborhood and a crowd pressures you and tries to come through your barricade?

    What legal grounds are there to form civilian defense forces for residential property and the rules they have to follow to operate legally?

    It seems much more concrete regarding defending yourself with lethal force if someone enters your business or enters your home but what about street or neighborhood scenarios?

    It seems a lot will revolve around legitimate fear for life arguments vs duty to retreat. Does an angry mob marching on your position qualify as a fear for your life situation?
    Really need a criminal attorney to better outline what you should or should not do in accordance with the law. I don't know the law well enough (in this area) to give any commentary outside of saying you better be able to articulate why you felt your life was in danger to then fire your weapon. A good attorney would probably ask you why you were in your store to begin with, and if you hadn't been there with a gun no one would have been shot. And probably something along the lines of "your insured goods aren't worth more than someone's life, even a criminal."
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    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Her group — Security Latinos De La Lake — is one of many neighborhood watch groups sprouting up across the Twin Cities and in other parts of the country as dozens of mostly peaceful protests continue every day
    https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/86846...ice-protection
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    It all depends on the laws where you live. Consult an attorney. The misc is not a source of decent information on this subject. In general though you can't use deadly force to stop looting of your business. Ignorance of the law is not a defense.
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    Training with your firearm, including with live ammo at a range, with a good instructor if you are a noob, and checking details with a lawyer as to when you can shoot and when you should not. Every state has different laws.

    You should practice at your home or business quickly getting to your gun, getting it ready to fire, preferably all this happens in a several seconds, use dummy rounds to shoot and maneuver around the house or business, so you can practice reloading, your position etc.

    Another detail I noticed is that live ammo is different form dummy rounds and your practice cheaper ammo, live ammo is often tighter, so you may need to use a bit more strength to load your firearm, so practice with your real ammo as well. Costs more, but it’s a great idea.
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    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    I'm more interested in your guys thoughts on civilian defense forces operating in a neighborhood watch/defense capacity or attempting to restrict access to an area against mobs.

    Another example is the saks 5th ave private security force. They're armed and have dogs when can they engage with their firearms?
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Seeing some people standing guard over their bushiness or neighborhoods with firearms got me thinking about justified shooting scenarios that may play out in the future.

    What are the rules of engagement regarding defending a storefront when can you legally shoot?

    What happens if you and others are guarding entrance to a neighborhood and a crowd pressures you and tries to come through your barricade?

    What legal grounds are there to form civilian defense forces for residential property and the rules they have to follow to operate legally?

    It seems much more concrete regarding defending yourself with lethal force if someone enters your business or enters your home but what about street or neighborhood scenarios?

    It seems a lot will revolve around legitimate fear for life arguments vs duty to retreat. Does an angry mob marching on your position qualify as a fear for your life situation?
    It depends on the state, but basically you have to reasonably fear for your life and lethal force has to be the only way to stop it. The duty to retreat doesn't change that, it's just in some states you're supposed to try to escape rather than respond with lethal force - but the threat still has to exist and lethal force still has to be a kind of last resort.

    I'm not aware of any law that would allow civilians to just open fire to block off a street or something.

    Also, it's not the military, there isn't a "rule of engagement" here - simply an affirmative defense that makes it not murder in this limited scenario.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    I'm more interested in your guys thoughts on civilian defense forces operating in a neighborhood watch/defense capacity or attempting to restrict access to an area against mobs.
    If everybody in the neighborhood is on board with it, and if the agreement is made to keep people who don't belong there out, then I don't see why not..
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  12. #12
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    If everybody in the neighborhood is on board with it, and if the agreement is made to keep people who don't belong there out, then I don't see why not..
    I wouldn't think either but the law tends to disagree with what most would consider logical in many instances.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    I wouldn't think either but the law tends to disagree with what most would consider logical in many instances.
    How would that be enforced though? Its private property, with the owners of said property all in agreement.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    If everybody in the neighborhood is on board with it, and if the agreement is made to keep people who don't belong there out, then I don't see why not..
    I'm not aware of laws that allow private individuals to determine what public neighborhoods others can enter. But the real question here is what happens if a mob does want to go past. You can't just start shooting people because they don't obey your barrier across a public street.
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    Originally Posted by Bushmaster View Post
    How would that be enforced though? Its private property, with the owners of said property all in agreement.
    Is it private property? If we're talking a gated neighborhood maybe, but I assumed we were talking about a normal area zoned for housing. There are public roads and sidewalks all over such an area. I don't see how you can restrict access to those.
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    This is why I live in a gated community with only two entrances. You have to have a code or key fob to get in. Anyone entering without approval is trespassing.
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    looters are carrying guns as well so I would not advise brandishing a firearm unless you are 100% prepared to shoot.
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    Originally Posted by jeffl1980 View Post
    This is why I live in a gated community with only two entrances. You have to have a code or key fob to get in. Anyone entering without approval is trespassing.
    And when the gate is torn down and a mob is walking up the drive?
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    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Is it private property? If we're talking a gated neighborhood maybe, but I assumed we were talking about a normal area zoned for housing. There are public roads and sidewalks all over such an area. I don't see how you can restrict access to those.
    Even if gated what could you do if a mob breaches the gate and trespasses? No one can resist a mob solo but a neighborhood can if they're confronted at the entrance.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    And when the gate is torn down and a mob is walking up the drive?
    Again it depends on the state, but I’m unaware of any that would allow you to open fire on a crowd in such a situation.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    Again it depends on the state, but I’m unaware of any that would allow you to open fire on a crowd in such a situation.
    Sounds fun guess you have to wait until they start killing people or burning houses down before you can open fire. Hell you would probably still get reamed by the law if you fired into a crowd that was torching a house if they could argue you were being indiscriminate.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Sounds fun guess you have to wait until they start killing people or burning houses down before you can open fire.
    Depends on the state, but yea, killing people is seen as a bad thing. Normally it has to be a very serious and very immediate threat that can only be properly addressed with lethal force to justify killing someone.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    And when the gate is torn down and a mob is walking up the drive?
    Probably not the best decision. Id say at least 90% of my private community are conservatives with a gun safe full of guns/ammo. It's a pretty private place and the people take pride in our community. Hell we have families riding on golf carts on the weekends that watch for none residents trying to sneak in for lake access (town is a lake community).

    Last Saturday I was having a cookout with my neighbor and we were discussing this, being that there were riots in Dallas (about an hour away).

    He told me that this topic was brought up at a community/HOA meeting in 2017 after Trump took office and the left felt the need to riot. Basically there is a "plan" in place to have armed guards in place if a "SHTF" scenario were to get close to our area.

    Having said this, only one entrance to our community is actually easily accessible. The 2nd entrance is part of an expansion in our neighborhood that is a back road that goes around the lake that's not fully developed yet.
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    Originally Posted by jeffl1980 View Post
    Probably not the best decision. Id say at least 90% of my private community are conservatives with a gun safe full of guns/ammo. It's a pretty private place and the people take pride in our community. Hell we have families riding on golf carts on the weekends that watch for none residents trying to sneak in for lake access (town is a lake community).

    Last Saturday I was having a cookout with my neighbor and we were discussing this, being that there were riots in Dallas (about an hour away).

    He told me that this topic was brought up at a community/HOA meeting in 2017 after Trump took office and the left felt the need to riot. Basically there is a "plan" in place to have armed guards in place if a "SHTF" scenario were to get close to our area.

    Having said this, only one entrance to our community is actually easily accessible. The 2nd entrance is part of an expansion in our neighborhood that is a back road that goes around the lake that's not fully developed yet.
    If it’s that important and you have the funds to hire guards etc., you should really consider paying a local crim lawyer a couple hundred bucks to get a short memo about what force can be used where under what circumstances. It would really suck to end up being the ones in trouble because the law wasn’t completely understood.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    If it’s that important and you have the funds to hire guards etc., you should really consider paying a local crim lawyer a couple hundred bucks to get a short memo about what force can be used where under what circumstances. It would really suck to end up being the ones in trouble because the law wasn’t completely understood.
    Thanks for your contribution this is the type of thing that's important to talk about and is the purpose of this thread. In the same light of armed citizens restricting access with lethal force I assume armed hired security has the same legal restrictions.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Thanks for your contribution this is the type of thing that's important to talk about and is the purpose of this thread. In the same light of armed citizens restricting access with lethal force I assume armed hired security has the same legal restrictions.
    I should be clear, this is not an area I’m an expert in at all. All I know is what I learned in school and what it took to pass the bar. But, I’d assume private security has to play by the same rules as any other private individual.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    I should be clear, this is not an area I’m an expert in at all. All I know is what I learned in school and what it took to pass the bar. But, I’d assume private security has to play by the same rules as any other private individual.
    It's honestly kind of annoying how nuanced it is. For example these riot police getting jumped and beat on. In any other environment they would pull their firearm and legally defend themselves with lethal force but since they're in the middle of a riot they seemingly can't now. It's more of a power struggle than law enforcement. They're both trying to stop the riots while also now flaming them. They shoot someone even in self defense and you end up in a scenario we were in not to long ago where cops were being ambushed sitting in their patrol cars.
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    Originally Posted by Suit View Post
    Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
    Absolutely especially if you're not a **** hole with a Democrat DA.
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    I feel/think that the people posted outside their business with guns are doing it wrong. I think they need to be posted inside the building with their firearms. For one they are in the open and in public space, a threat could easily close the distance and surround you before before acting in a threatening manner. What if they leave you alone but break in a window or kick down a door to enter your business, are you justified in shooting, and at what distance. Armed shop owners outside a building is a good deterence to looters and vandals but if a situation arises where the fire arms are actually needed they are putting themselves at a disadvantage tactitcally.

    If you are inside the building and someone commits forceful entry and trespassing it would be much easier to justify lethal force, especially if the tool they used to break down a door or window is easily construed as a weapon.
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