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  1. #1
    No Agony, No Bragony JUSA's Avatar
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    Don't Be Fooled, Sweden's COVID-19 Response Was A Success

    Kim Iverson is a rational progressive type, if that matters to anyone.



    Is the media gaslighting us on Sweden?

    The only thing for sure I know about covid is this: The media has been absolutely trash from top to bottom throughout this.

    Edit: Video cliff notes:

    - Media and various Gov'ts are gaslighting Sweden and their no-lockdown approach as a failure
    - Kim considers it successful for the most part
    - The previous models were completely wrong with Sweden and we should consider this in the fall with Phase 2
    - She lists headlines that make Sweden out as a catastrophic failure
    - There will be future health ramifications of the lockdown, putting off screenings, routine issues, health checks on top of the economic issues
    - Sweden initially predicted about double the typical flu season death #s (which would be 4,000 -- they are currently at around 4.5K)
    - Swedes did encourage social distancing, did not close down schools and daycare, children over 16 could stay at home, closed down large events (50+) but no major lockdowns
    - Sweden's economy actually grew over the lockdown (Sillie disagrees here, I personally don't know)
    - The projected deaths in the US were 1.7 - 2.2 million from Imperial College of London report that freaked everyone out (5:40)
    - Sweden was projected to see 75,000 - 100,000 deaths unmitigated, if they did not lock down (which they did not)

    ... so, you have the Sweden epidemiologist who predicted 4,000 vs the 75-100K model, with most everyone else going with the model. With the actual result currently around 4,500 with a very relaxed attitude to this, it at least begs the question of if this hard locking down made any sense whatsoever.
    Last edited by JUSA; 06-02-2020 at 11:54 AM.
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    Platinum User chaunce54's Avatar
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    lol, nobody cares about COVID anymore.
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    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    OP don't you know riots and protesting cured COVID-19, fukkkin retard
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    Soros Disciple Tha big kahoona's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what the media has to do with any of this. If you remove countries that have less 100k population, Sweden has the 5th worst deaths per capita figure in the world. There's no universe in which that would be considered a success.
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    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tha big kahoona View Post
    I'm not sure what the media has to do with any of this. If you remove countries that have less 100k population, Sweden has the 5th worst deaths per capita figure in the world. There's no universe in which that would be considered a success.
    Uh Trump world considers that a bigly success.
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  6. #6
    No Agony, No Bragony JUSA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tha big kahoona View Post
    I'm not sure what the media has to do with any of this. If you remove countries that have less 100k population, Sweden has the 5th worst deaths per capita figure in the world. There's no universe in which that would be considered a success.
    In a universe where 'experts' and the media pushed a narrative that the death toll would absolutely be 75,000 to 100,000 in Sweden, then a 4,500# coupled with an economy that actually grew and the strong likelihood that a second wave is going to be far less punishing in Sweden than elsewhere -- that's about as close to a success as I can rate.

    Yeah, anyone dying is a bad thing and no cause to celebrate, but 4,500 vs. 10,000,000 population, no crushed economy, none of the disastrous mental health issues, some level of herd immunity, etc...

    ... what do you think would be a success? This isn't a zero sum game, whatever decision any country makes, there are going to be losses. Losses in human life, losses in the economy, losses in people's mental well-being and so on.

    I think it sounds like they made their Doom and Gloom 75,000-100,000 predictions, it didn't pan out and they're reacting negatively and gaslighting to cover their own ineptitude during the start of this and to punish Sweden for going against their obviously worthless opinion on this one. The experts and the media are nothing if not petty and they'll manipulate and massage any number they can to make them out as the wrong party here, not themselves.
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  7. #7
    Soros Disciple Tha big kahoona's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JUSA View Post
    In a universe where 'experts' and the media pushed a narrative that the death toll would absolutely be 75,000 to 100,000 in Sweden, then a 4,500# coupled with an economy that actually grew and the strong likelihood that a second wave is going to be far less punishing in Sweden than elsewhere -- that's about as close to a success as I can rate.

    Yeah, anyone dying is a bad thing and no cause to celebrate, but 4,500 vs. 10,000,000 population, no crushed economy, none of the disastrous mental health issues, some level of herd immunity, etc...

    ... what do you think would be a success? This isn't a zero sum game, whatever decision any country makes, there are going to be losses. Losses in human life, losses in the economy, losses in people's mental well-being and so on.

    I think it sounds like they made their Doom and Gloom 75,000-100,000 predictions, it didn't pan out and they're reacting negatively and gaslighting to cover their own ineptitude during the start of this and to punish Sweden for going against their obviously worthless opinion on this one. The experts and the media are nothing if not petty and they'll manipulate and massage any number they can to make them out as the wrong party here, not themselves.

    Sweden has recorded more Covid-19 infections and fatalities than all its Nordic neighbors combined — Finland, Denmark, Norway and Iceland.

    The Nordic countries minus Sweden are well over the hump and well on their way to normalcy. This isn't even over yet, and especially not for Sweden.

    4,500 deaths in a country that only has a population of 10MM is already too much. I live in a country with an almost identical population and we have 269 deaths to date. I don't think we're over it yet in the UAE, but i don't think we'll get close Sweden's figures either. You can't really compare the 2 countries, but you can compare Sweden to its Nordic nieghbors
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  8. #8
    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JUSA View Post
    In a universe where 'experts' and the media pushed a narrative that the death toll would absolutely be 75,000 to 100,000 in Sweden, then a 4,500# coupled with an economy that actually grew and the strong likelihood that a second wave is going to be far less punishing in Sweden than elsewhere -- that's about as close to a success as I can rate.

    Yeah, anyone dying is a bad thing and no cause to celebrate, but 4,500 vs. 10,000,000 population, no crushed economy, none of the disastrous mental health issues, some level of herd immunity, etc...

    ... what do you think would be a success? This isn't a zero sum game, whatever decision any country makes, there are going to be losses. Losses in human life, losses in the economy, losses in people's mental well-being and so on.

    I think it sounds like they made their Doom and Gloom 75,000-100,000 predictions, it didn't pan out and they're reacting negatively and gaslighting to cover their own ineptitude during the start of this and to punish Sweden for going against their obviously worthless opinion on this one. The experts and the media are nothing if not petty and they'll manipulate and massage any number they can to make them out as the wrong party here, not themselves.
    Uh Sweden's economy is as crushed as the rest of Europe boyo.
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  9. #9
    SillieBazzillie Alt #z4 z4v4's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Uh Trump world considers that a bigly success.
    Yeah, they need to build a Trump wall around the outer perimeter of Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Arkansas and move all the MAGAs in and have their own country where they can do anything they want and Trump rules their country for the rest of time.
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  10. #10
    Registered User AriGhold's Avatar
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    Cliffs on the video? From my understanding they may be further ahead of other countries in developing herd immunity but not nearly as far along as they may have expected given how much of the nation practiced some level of social distancing anyway. I think using Sweden’s model as support for either way america did or should have handled the pandemic response isn’t fair given how different the countries are from a demographic standpoint and cultural norms.

    Originally Posted by SillieBazillie View Post
    Uh Sweden's economy is as crushed as the rest of Europe boyo.
    Yeah, maybe they were able to reduce their unemployment levels but the global nature of all economies, especially in the EU, along with unavoidable fears/slowdowns domestically made Sweden’s chances of maintaining economic stability nearly impossible.
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  11. #11
    No Agony, No Bragony JUSA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Uh Sweden's economy is as crushed as the rest of Europe boyo.
    I based that off of Kim Iverson, who said otherwise in the video posted in the OP. If you know something, yeah let's see it. Not trying to chit on you but if it comes down to me taking you or her as being factually correct and honest, while I'm sure both of you are very honest, I'm still going to side with her.

    Ari, I'll edit the OP with cliffs here in a minute, need to rewatch it and detail from there (although it's a good video and I find Kim generally a very informed and rational political commentator).
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    Sweden is a less populated county with a strong healthcare system and more workers rights. In general people are also more willing to follow voluntary guidelines.

    I work with a number of people from Sweden and they are working from home and practicing social distancing.

    Due demographic and cultural differences I'm not sure their strategy would translate well to the united states.
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    Originally Posted by Ten_Hearts View Post
    Sweden is a less populated county with a strong healthcare system and more workers rights. In general people are also more willing to follow voluntary guidelines.

    I work with a number of people from Sweden and they are working from home and practicing social distancing.

    Due demographic and cultural differences I'm not sure their strategy would translate well to the united states.
    Yeah I agree completely. I watched the first minute or two of the vid but don’t have time for the whole thing. I know she was arguing for the us to consider a similar approach if/when a second wave hit but want to know if she provided some support as to why the plan would translate. I feel the initial approach made us so polarized that it would be next to impossible for a certain sect of our population to follow along just to stick it to the libs.
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    No Agony, No Bragony JUSA's Avatar
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    Sillie,

    Here is a recent article, maybe one she was talking about:

    Sweden’s Economy Grew Last Quarter, Adding to Covid-19 Debate
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-covid-19-plan

    ... while looking, I did see articles (behind a paywall so I didn't read) that were saying Sweden's economy was utterly and completely ruined in the headline, from a couple weeks back. Here's one I was able to read from mid-May

    Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch
    https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/

    ... so who knows what is right, the more recent article or the others ones. They seem to be reporting in two different directions.

    edit: actually read the second one, it was more of a prediction than actual numbers. Hmm

    Here are the recent articles he's writing (Charlie Duxbury):

    - Nordic neighbors say no thanks to Swedish tourists 5/30
    - Nordics want to open borders but Sweden may be frozen out 5/29
    - Sweden looks to break out of its northern isolation 5/19
    - Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch 5/18

    .... dude seems to write a lot about this. Wonder what he'll say about their economy, apparently, growing despite his prediction otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by JUSA View Post
    Sillie,

    Here is a recent article, maybe one she was talking about:

    Sweden’s Economy Grew Last Quarter, Adding to Covid-19 Debate
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-covid-19-plan

    ... while looking, I did see articles (behind a paywall so I didn't read) that were saying Sweden's economy was utterly and completely ruined in the headline, from a couple weeks back. Here's one I was able to read from mid-May

    Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch
    https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/

    ... so who knows what is right, the more recent article or the others ones. They seem to be reporting in two different directions.

    edit: actually read the second one, it was more of a prediction than actual numbers. Hmm

    Here are the recent articles he's writing (Charlie Duxbury):

    - Nordic neighbors say no thanks to Swedish tourists 5/30
    - Nordics want to open borders but Sweden may be frozen out 5/29
    - Sweden looks to break out of its northern isolation 5/19
    - Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch 5/18

    .... dude seems to write a lot about this. Wonder what he'll say about their economy, apparently, growing despite his prediction otherwise.
    I'm sure he won't bother to mention it...
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    Registered User Johnez's Avatar
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    We just gonna ignore how they did with regards to deaths compared to the rest of the Nordic region?
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    No Agony, No Bragony JUSA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chaunce54 View Post
    I'm sure he won't bother to mention it...
    I wasn't trying to fact shame him, I am certain he probably did read some Doom & Gloom article about Sweden being in the chitcan a couple weeks back, like the one I linked (where it's just the journalist 'expert' hypothesizing it was over for Sweden) and was basing his opinion on that.

    The more recent article about them actually growing their economy is only from a day or two ago and as it doesn't fit the MSM's narrative, I doubt it was widely circulated.

    Originally Posted by Johnez View Post
    We just gonna ignore how they did with regards to deaths compared to the rest of the Nordic region?
    The video directly speaks to this.

    Skip to 7:17

    Cliffs, since I guess most people like to enter thread about videos/articles and ignore them, they predicted x2 the flu, it's been on point, the other nations might only be better in that they locked down so, of course, nobody died much there (although the virus does tend to spread more indoors), but sheltering in place will decline the spread. Norway, Denmark, Finland had better numbers but at what cost, again? Do we lock down again in the Fall? Do we lock down for the next flu season too? Will Norway, Denmark and Finland be more susceptible to the virus in the fall with the second wave?

    They're making the numbers seem bad, because they're comparing them to the guys who ruined their economies to get it down, but at the end of the day they predicted double the flu and it's been about that. Now they have a stronger economy and some level of herd immunity for the second wave in the fall.

    That's worse?
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    Deaths per 1 million population

    Sweden: 443

    Neighboring countries will similar population densities and demographics as Sweden

    Norway: 44
    Finland:58

    Denmark with a significantly higher population density is only at 100.
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    Originally Posted by Reliance012 View Post
    Deaths per 1 million population

    Sweden: 443

    Neighboring countries will similar population densities and demographics as Sweden

    Norway: 44
    Finland:58

    Denmark with a significantly higher population density is only at 100.
    What's the infection rate of all of those?

    Sounds like they've managed to hunker down and avoid this double-flu season, only at the small cost of wrecking their economies, ruining people's mental health, hurting many people's physical health by putting off checkups, procedures and doctor's visits and whatever else by locking tight indoors. Now, all they have to do is have everyone all stay indoors indefinitely for the next 12-36 months, because if the infection rate is almost nothing and nobody has any immunity, they're all still mostly susceptible to getting this virus either now or when it comes back around in the Fall.

    Meanwhile, while any death to any disease is lamentable like those additional 400 per million people dying in Sweden, there is a huge cost Findland, Norway and Denmark paid in (many which will linger for years, if not decades). And, not to be cold about it, the people suffering in Norway, Finland and Denmark is spread evenly down the board. Everyone suffers from being inside, a crashed economy hurts young and old alike, it's many young and in their prime people losing their businesses and livelihoods, not almost exclusively elderly people who are extremely ill who are dying from CV-19.
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    Originally Posted by JUSA View Post
    Sillie,

    Here is a recent article, maybe one she was talking about:

    Sweden’s Economy Grew Last Quarter, Adding to Covid-19 Debate
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-covid-19-plan

    ... while looking, I did see articles (behind a paywall so I didn't read) that were saying Sweden's economy was utterly and completely ruined in the headline, from a couple weeks back. Here's one I was able to read from mid-May

    Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch
    https://www.politico.eu/article/swed...9-light-touch/

    ... so who knows what is right, the more recent article or the others ones. They seem to be reporting in two different directions.

    edit: actually read the second one, it was more of a prediction than actual numbers. Hmm

    Here are the recent articles he's writing (Charlie Duxbury):

    - Nordic neighbors say no thanks to Swedish tourists 5/30
    - Nordics want to open borders but Sweden may be frozen out 5/29
    - Sweden looks to break out of its northern isolation 5/19
    - Sweden won’t dodge economic hit despite COVID-19 light touch 5/18

    .... dude seems to write a lot about this. Wonder what he'll say about their economy, apparently, growing despite his prediction otherwise.
    From May 20th, "Sweden has kept most schools, restaurants and businesses open during the pandemic and some theorized it might at least suffer less economic pain. But the latest data challenge that idea.

    Scandinavia’s biggest economy will shrink 7 per cent this year, Finance Minister Magdalena Andersson said on Tuesday. And while overall deaths are on the decline, Sweden’s had 6.25 deaths per million inhabitants per day in a rolling average between May 12 and May 19, according to Ourworldinsata.org. That was the highest in Europe on a per capita basis and just above the United Kingdom, which had 5.75 deaths per million."

    https://nationalpost.com/news/world/...-soft-lockdown
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    From May 20th, "Sweden has kept most schools, restaurants and businesses open during the pandemic and some theorized it might at least suffer less economic pain.
    Thanks, and honest-to-God, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I did a quick check and I saw a ton of older May articles all Doom&Glooming Sweden's economy, the one I looked at was also just speculating, but I have no doubt in my mind you were being on the level. You had probably seen one of those and just stuck it in the back of your mind that Sweden got fuked.

    This new analysis that their economy is actually new stuff that hit very recently, so I can't fault you for being unaware. Although, you probably should have watched the damn video before posting but looking around I don't think people actually do that. Not entirely on you, but wtf? We're all interested in this topic, we all seem to like political debate, the girl in the video is intelligent and pleasant to look at... What's up with the avoidance there?
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    Originally Posted by JUSA View Post
    Thanks, and honest-to-God, I wasn't trying to jump on you. I did a quick check and I saw a ton of older May articles all Doom&Glooming Sweden's economy, the one I looked at was just speculating, but I have no doubt in my mind you were being on the level. You had probably seen one of those and just stuck it in the back of your mind that Sweden got fuked.

    This new analysis that their economy is actually new stuff that hit very recently, so I can't fault you for being unaware. Although, you probably should have watched the damn video before posting but looking around I don't think people actually do that. Not entirely on you, but wtf? We're all interested in this topic, we all seem to like political debate, the girl in the video is intelligent and pleasant to look at... What's up with the avoidance there?
    No worries bro. And the gals info is more recent than May 20th by the Finance minister? And you are correct that I did not watch the vid but for you I will.
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    No worries bro. And the gals info is more recent than May 20th by the Finance minister? And you are correct that I did not watch the vid but for you I will.
    I don't know where she got her info, I did a quick search (where I did see a lot of previous D&G news articles) but this one is from May 29th

    Sweden’s Economy Grew Last Quarter, Adding to Covid-19 Debate
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-covid-19-plan

    Note, it grew last quarter but they do predict it will drop at some point

    But, there’s little chance that “Sweden will escape a recession in 2020,” even though “it is set to be smaller than elsewhere.”
    Also, someone was off on their numbers earlier, at least according to the same article:

    According to Johns Hopkins University data, Sweden has had 41 deaths per 100,000. That compares with 31 in the U.S. and 10 in neighboring Denmark.
    Someone was suggesting Sweden was x10 more, but it's more like x4ish and only a little higher than the USA, deaths at least.
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    Ok, I watched half the vid. Sweden did grow slightly in the 1st quarter but the 2nd quarter will really show how successful they've been.

    But I grant you that their even minor growth is certainly far superior to that of most of Europe.

    And that chick was hawt.
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    Also keep in mind southern hemisphere winter is coming, so as cases rise during their winter season it's not due to lack of lockdown measures and has more to do with the conditions that let Covid and the Flue thrive.
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    Originally Posted by DarthCholo View Post
    Also keep in mind southern hemisphere winter is coming, so as cases rise during their winter season it's not due to lack of lockdown measures and has more to do with the conditions that let Covid and the Flue thrive.
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    Originally Posted by Tha big kahoona View Post
    Never knew it was possible to misspell a 3 letter word
    not even gonna fix it. i think you got the point.
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    This is the statements of Sweden's own government and the man who conceived the strategy:

    https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb...e-things-wrong

    Sweden’s top epidemiologist has admitted his strategy to fight Covid-19 resulted in too many deaths, after persuading his country to avoid a strict lockdown. “If we were to encounter the same illness with the same knowledge that we have today, I think our response would land somewhere in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Anders Tegnell said in an interview with Swedish Radio
    On the economy:

    What’s more, there’s so far limited evidence that Sweden’s decision to leave much of its society open will support the economy. Finance Minister Magdalena Andersson recently warned that Sweden is facing its worst economic crisis since World War II, with GDP set to slump 7% in 2020, roughly as much as the rest of the EU.
    These are now quotes from the top epidemiologist and the top economist in the country, so I think they carry more credibility than anything else that's been said so far.

    I've said this before. First, the Swedish "non-lockdown" is/was not the libertarian free-for-all panacea that it was sometimes made out to be on the right here in the US (I know you understand that), but was rather a set of government restrictions that people followed voluntarily so that they didn't have to become mandatory, which never would have worked here. Here, the restrictions are mandatory and lots of people still don't follow them or even believe in the truth about the virus in the first place.

    Second, it's still way too early for the recriminations stage of the pandemic. Sweden's fatality rate is far ahead of their neighbors (and most other countries) because of the lighter restrictions, but we still have to see what the effect is on the second wave that is for sure coming in the fall/winter. If flattening the curve in Denmark in April spikes it in November, then the final numbers may very well tell a different story than they do now. For anyone to call anything the correct or incorrect strategy at this point is foolish. My hope is that we learn from what various countries did or did not do and better prepare for the next one. Sweden's approach will certainly get a ton of scrutiny once we get to that point of the process.

    Finally, the point of "flattening the curve" was to prevent overwhelming healthcare resources. I think they did accomplish that in Sweden. I don't recall seeing or hearing anything about people laying in the hallways in hospitals in Sweden or getting refused scarce ventilators based on quality of life formulas. Those are the things that cause the IFR to spike from 0.5% to 3% and avoiding that is what the all of the mitigation measures were about. It's impossible to stop a virus like this completely in its tracks.
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    Originally Posted by Jayarbie View Post
    This is the statements of Sweden's own government and the man who conceived the strategy:

    https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb...e-things-wrong



    On the economy:

    These are now quotes from the top epidemiologist and the top economist in the country, so I think they carry more credibility than anything else that's been said so far.

    I've said this before. First, the Swedish "non-lockdown" is/was not the libertarian free-for-all panacea that it was sometimes made out to be on the right here in the US (I know you understand that), but was rather a set of government restrictions that people followed voluntarily so that they didn't have to become mandatory, which never would have worked here. Here, the restrictions are mandatory and lots of people still don't follow them or even believe in the truth about the virus in the first place.

    Second, it's still way too early for the recriminations stage of the pandemic. Sweden's fatality rate is far ahead of their neighbors (and most other countries) because of the lighter restrictions, but we still have to see what the effect is on the second wave that is for sure coming in the fall/winter. If flattening the curve in Denmark in April spikes it in November, then the final numbers may very well tell a different story than they do now. For anyone to call anything the correct or incorrect strategy at this point is foolish. My hope is that we learn from what various countries did or did not do and better prepare for the next one. Sweden's approach will certainly get a ton of scrutiny once we get to that point of the process.

    Finally, the point of "flattening the curve" was to prevent overwhelming healthcare resources. I think they did accomplish that in Sweden. I don't recall seeing or hearing anything about people laying in the hallways in hospitals in Sweden or getting refused scarce ventilators based on quality of life formulas. Those are the things that cause the IFR to spike from 0.5% to 3% and avoiding that is what the all of the mitigation measures were about. It's impossible to stop a virus like this completely in its tracks.
    The evidence I've seen so far suggests a quite clear linear correlation between how early countries locked down (measured by estimated # of total infections on day of lockdown, per capita) and total number of coronavirus deaths so far.

    In other words, countries that very swiftly locked down in the earliest feasible stages of the outbreak, as well as quickly incorporated high levels of testing and contact tracing measures, tended to end up with very negligible overall deaths. This includes after they reopened and in the time since. Some of the countries with really high death rates - including France, UK, Italy Spain etc. all locked down officially when the number of infections were already quite high, and fumbled around with other mitigation measures, leaving them with lots of deaths despite eventual strict lockdowns.

    It seems like it's not only possible, but quite likely, that if you lock down too late, you forgo most of the benefits while imposing significant costs (on the economy etc). Swiftly acting to blunt the initial peak and getting R as far below 1 as possible, then opening up intelligently and keeping enough mitigation measures in place to keep R under 1, seems to be the key strategy from what we know.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    The evidence I've seen so far suggests a quite clear linear correlation between how early countries locked down (measured by estimated # of total infections on day of lockdown, per capita) and total number of coronavirus deaths so far.

    In other words, countries that very swiftly locked down in the earliest feasible stages of the outbreak, as well as quickly incorporated high levels of testing and contact tracing measures, tended to end up with very negligible overall deaths. This includes after they reopened and in the time since. Some of the countries with really high death rates - including France, UK, Italy Spain etc. all locked down officially when the number of infections were already quite high, and fumbled around with other mitigation measures, leaving them with lots of deaths despite eventual strict lockdowns.

    It seems like it's not only possible, but quite likely, that if you lock down too late, you forgo most of the benefits while imposing significant costs (on the economy etc). Swiftly acting to blunt the initial peak and getting R as far below 1 as possible, then opening up intelligently and keeping enough mitigation measures in place to keep R under 1, seems to be the key strategy from what we know.
    Thanks, trump
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