My cut failure.

[jaybeeee]

I was 85kg, dropped down to 67kg at my lowest, I was still 20 percent body fat at my lowest. I felt really good at 20 but 12-15% would have been perfect, and then i was going to try and maintain while I lean bulked until about 70 to 80 kg or as big as I can natty for the rest of my life.

I counted macros and calories every day was super strict, really clean food and a wide variety. Was eating about 100 grams a day of protein and 30g of fats rest was carbs. Was cutting on 1300 to 1500 calories a day. Running more training as per usual at weights as my bulk lifts were. Didn't change anything.

The weight dropped off really quickly when I was consistent, my strength only suffered a little, i lost bench press strength the most.

Did the same amount of chin ups 15kg lighter which probably is not ideal. Ideally I should have got more reps. I might have increased 3 reps on my pull ups and chin ups maybe 5 peak.

Should of got easy 5 more of max reps or pull ups and chin ups.

Thing is. Every 7 to 20 days depending how strong I was.

Alot of the time 7 to 10 days I would binge drink on a Saturday night and eat **** food as well.

I feel like I lost too much muscle.

Anyways I stopped training, again, for like 6 months too 12 months, cannot believe it.

Went from 20 percent bf% at 70kg, to 26%bf at 84kg.

My scan said I had put like 8kg of fat on but also 6kg of lean mass.

I feel like been on such low calories sucked and I lost to much muscle. Along with binge eating and binge drinking.

But my main question and point is, how possible and easy is it to keep the extra muscle that comes with being a higher bf%

I increase my bf % and don't even lift and gained nearly 7kg of lean body mass.

I wonder if I got too 12% how hard would it be for my body to keep th3 extra muscle on.

I feel like dieting for me and training just has to be super consistent. Otherwise it will never work. Cheers any input would be appreciated.

[SuffolkPunch]

Don't believe the results of BIA scans, they are notriously unreliable and a constant source of issues just like yours on this forum. If you are stronger than you were lb for lb then you gained muscle and lost fat.

Don't try to cut too fast. Don't try to gain weight too fast. Results take time and rushing is like trying to win a marathon by sprinting off the line.

[Luclin999]

If you weren't serious about lifting then you didn't put on "nearly 7kg of lean mass". No one (that is natural) puts on 15 pounds of muscle without putting in a lot of hard work for it.

It also sounds like you can't decide if you want to really dedicate yourself to being focused on a goal of having a lean, muscular body or on partying and just eating #@%$.

You have to decide what you want more, an athletic body or drinking and partying because those two things are pretty incompatible to each other for most people.

[kenneyj889]

i once made a similar mistake when i first started and lost up toward 67% muscle on a cut. the way to avoid muscle loss on a cut is to go slower and have a 250-500 calorie deficit. i also found doing intermittant bulking in a cut like cut for 14 days then rebulk for 4-5 days, repeat, is the way to lose absolute 0 muscle and possible gain a bit while on a cut. this is very slow route to shredding though, but it guarantees you wont go in circles or digress. also note, those machine are increadbly inaccurate, so dont rely on that. in terms of determining with strength whether you are losing muscle on a cut. if your strength is declining, you are losing considerable muscle. if your straingth is the same, you are losing a tidbit of muscle because strength is improves due to both mass and neural drive, so if your neural drive is improving(which you can assume it is) and your strength is constant, thats mild muscle loss(and most of what youre losing is fat). if your strength is inching upward, you are fully maintaining muscle on your cut and if you strength is improving rapidly, you are building additional muscle. in terms of binge eating, avoid it if possible, but if you do it, just make sure to restrict calories a lot the next day, like if you eat 1000 excess calories on party night, eat 700-800 calories under maintaince the next day to mitigate the fat gain. in terms of how easy is it to maintain the extra muscle? i find it very difficult, but as i explained with the slow cut plus periodic re-bulk it is indeed possible to 100% retain muscle. there is also a genetic factor to this called P-ratio. different people have different baseline P-ratios cutting which effects how big a calorie deficit you can go into without losing muscle. some people(like me) can only go into a 300-400 calorie deficit with little/no muscle loss, while others can go into as high as 700 calorie deficits and not lose muscle. its sort of like how some people pack on muscle more easily than others. and often people with good Bulking P-ratios(like me) who build muscle easily, have bad cutting p-ratios, and vice versa.

[alec935]

You have to decide what you want more, an athletic body or drinking and partying because those two things are pretty incompatible to each other for most people.

I don't think this is true. I've been lean my whole life, whether college was in or out

Regarding muscle, the latest study shows that binge drinking reduces MPS by 24% if you hit your macros. Definitely not ideal, but also not a deal-breaker, especially if you design your routine so around it.

[Luclin999]

I don't think this is true. I've been lean my whole life, whether college was in or out

Regarding muscle, the latest study shows that binge drinking reduces MPS by 24% if you hit your macros. Definitely not ideal, but also not a deal-breaker, especially if you design your routine so around it.

It's not just the calories from drinking that mess you up as much as the impaired judgement that goes along with it that lends itself to people eating and drinking a lot more than what they had planned to and then either under recording their total calories for the day or worse, forgetting entirely how much they actually consumed.

IE. Having "Just one more chicken wing" .... for the 10th or 11th time that night. or forgetting that mixers tend to have quite a few calories as well. Hell, a 16oz frozen margarita has about 300 calories. That is nearly twice the calories per ounce as Coca Cola.

So... two hours of drinks with friends ends up - 10-20 wings = 600-1200 extra calories. 2-3 frozen margaritas = 600-900 or basically an extra 1200-2100 calories on top of whatever else the person consumed that day that tends to get blown off as "I guess I had maybe 400 - 500 extra calories... tops!"

If a person does that two or three times per week is it any wonder at all why they end up spinning their wheels trying to lose weight?

[alec935]

It's not just the calories from drinking that mess you up as much as the impaired judgement that goes along with it that lends itself to people eating and drinking a lot more than what they had planned to and then either under recording their total calories for the day or worse, forgetting entirely how much they actually consumed.

IE. Having "Just one more chicken wing" .... for the 10th or 11th time that night. or forgetting that mixers tend to have quite a few calories as well. Hell, a 16oz frozen margarita has about 300 calories. That is nearly twice the calories per ounce as Coca Cola.

So... two hours of drinks with friends ends up - 10-20 wings = 600-1200 extra calories. 2-3 frozen margaritas = 600-900 or basically an extra 1200-2100 calories on top of whatever else the person consumed that day that tends to get blown off as "I guess I had maybe 400 - 500 extra calories... tops!"

If a person does that two or three times per week is it any wonder at all why they end up spinning their wheels trying to lose weight?

Obviously drinking can throw you off, but if someone wants to drink and party as long as he has self control he can still diet, is all I'm saying

[kenneyj889]

i agree, espcially since an athletic body doesnt imply reaching your genetic bbuilding potential. while you cant get to some 24-25 FFMI this way or some year round 7% BF, you can get a 22-23 FFMI and 12% BF which would indeed be an athletic body. the drinking only truly derails you if sever binge eating comes with it like 1000-2000 calorie surpluses 2+ days a week.

[Luclin999]

Obviously drinking can throw you off, but if someone wants to drink and party as long as he has self control he can still diet, is all I'm saying

Which is why I said in my original statement...

"You have to decide what you want more, an athletic body or drinking and partying because those two things are pretty incompatible to each other for most people.

Most people (evidentially including the OP) do not have the discipline required to "party" and still lose weight.

Just because you personally may currently have an active enough lifestyle through the week in general to be able to burn off the additional calories that you managed to pick up from drinking and "partying" doesn't mean that everyone else (especially people like the OP that are already fat) will do so as well, and to offer encouragement for them to do so when they have already stated that their "partying" is one of the things that they acknowledge is messing up their fat loss, is frankly pretty irresponsible.

[Tommy W.]

As far as the drinking thing goes it's difficult to fit the calories into a low cal cutting diet when all the cals are needed for a proper macro split. A couple drinks a week are harmless however its the several drinks per night on a regular basis that is the problem. As mentioned it's just not the alcohol cals but also the poor judgement cals.

One of the biggies is compromised training the following day after a night out. Bottom line is the more serious you are about your diet and training the less you'll drink. No reason to be a tea totaler, just use good judgement.

Personally, I like a glass of wine every night until I'm in fatloss mode and my cals get into the 1700 range then there's no room.

[kenneyj889]

Which is why I said in my original statement...

"You have to decide what you want more, an athletic body or drinking and partying because those two things are pretty incompatible to each other for most people.

Most people (evidentially including the OP) do not have the discipline required to "party" and still lose weight.

Just because you personally may currently have an active enough lifestyle through the week in general to be able to burn off the additional calories that you managed to pick up from drinking and "partying" doesn't mean that everyone else (especially people like the OP that are already fat) will do so as well, and to offer encouragement for them to do so when they have already stated that their "partying" is one of the things that they acknowledge is messing up their fat loss, is frankly pretty irresponsible.

it depends on what you mean by athletic body, if you mean a 24FFMI and 8% BF, then yeah of course drinking will make that not possible, but if you mean a 13% BF and 22FFMI which is still considered athletic, you can as long as you dont eat 2000 extra calories with the drink.

[Luclin999]

it depends on what you mean by athletic body, if you mean a 24FFMI and 8% BF, then yeah of course drinking will make that not possible, but if you mean a 13% BF and 22FFMI which is still considered athletic, you can as long as you dont eat 2000 extra calories with the drink.

You really don't read what other people say do you? I didn't say that it was utterly impossible, just not realistic for most people.

And as for your example... Probably less than one person in a thousand has that degree of a lean mass to fat ratio with 13% BF and a 22 FFMI. Anyone who managed to put on that much muscle and maintain that relatively low degree of fat is either disciplined to start with or a really active college student (who if he keeps up that lifestyle will probably be putting on a ton of weight as he gets older).

The OP sure as Hell doesn't have a body like that nor do the vast majority of people that post here asking for help to lose fat, and telling overweight/obese people like that that it is alright to go out drinking and partying while they are attempting to lose weight is completely irresponsible.

[alec935]

As far as the drinking thing goes it's difficult to fit the calories into a low cal cutting diet when all the cals are needed for a proper macro split. A couple drinks a week are harmless however its the several drinks per night on a regular basis that is the problem. As mentioned it's just not the alcohol cals but also the poor judgement cals.

One of the biggies is compromised training the following day after a night out. Bottom line is the more serious you are about your diet and training the less you'll drink. No reason to be a tea totaler, just use good judgement.

Personally, I like a glass of wine every night until I'm in fatloss mode and my cals get into the 1700 range then there's no room.

Well alcohol calories don't really count as much because of TEF... they've done studies where they replaced carbs with alcohol of equal caloric value and the people lost weight. You can get probably get away with drinking ~20% more than the calories suggest

[Tommy W.]

Well alcohol calories don't really count as much because of TEF... they've done studies where they replaced carbs with alcohol of equal caloric value and the people lost weight. You can get probably get away with drinking ~20% more than the calories suggest

bulls*it on losing because of drinking.

While TEF is a real thing it’s not a license to disregard overall calorie intake. Alcohol has slightly less TEF than protein and in the overall calorie picture it doesn’t make a lot of difference especially for alcohol. If you drank enough for TEF to matter you’d have bigger problems than worrying about calories.

2 beers would be a savings of about 40 calories if you figured the TEF compared to carbs or fats. Hardly earth shaking.

[Luclin999]

The problem is that the kind of self-disciplined people that go out "partying" and just drink two beers are not the kind of people that generally post here for help.

The people that come here with posts like "I'm 50-150 pounds overweight and I'm sure that I've only been eating 1700 calories/day and yet somehow I haven't lost any weight over the past month!" are in general not disciplined or physically active enough to handle "partying" while attempting to wrap their heads around the realities of what it will take to actually lose the fat.

When they "Party" they go out with their friends to some restaurant/bar combo place and order the crazy high calorie, sugar loaded mixed drinks (which utterly negates any TEF "Advantage" from the alcohol content) along with party platters of wings, potato skins, sliders, nachos, cheese fries, Etc. drink and eat a lot more than they "estimate" (or remember) and then end up wiping out any progress that they may have made over the past several days of trying to create a calorie deficit.

For an analogy... There may be some guy out there that is active enough and disciplined enough that he can go out every Sunday and eat a dozen jelly filled donuts and still be in enough of an overall deficit each week that he can manage to lose weight doing that while on a "cut" but that doesn't mean that the people coming here looking for help could manage it and I doubt that anyone would think that telling them that a "weekly donut binge" while trying to lose weight would be an "okay" thing to do either.

[alec935]

bulls*it on losing because of drinking.

While TEF is a real thing it’s not a license to disregard overall calorie intake. Alcohol has slightly less TEF than protein and in the overall calorie picture it doesn’t make a lot of difference especially for alcohol. If you drank enough for TEF to matter you’d have bigger problems than worrying about calories.

2 beers would be a savings of about 40 calories if you figured the TEF compared to carbs or fats. Hardly earth shaking.

40cals/day is the equivalent of the effect of ~7lbs of muscle on metabolism

and you can save a little more going for vodka or zero-cal mixers

not saying it's earth-shattering, but it's not *nothing*. if you drink 10 shots, you probably even get less than the 8 shots worth of calories too, because when you binge drink you body starts to use less effective pathways to metabolize alcohol. we're talking a few hundred calories saved (vs if every calorie counted)!

[Tommy W.]

40cals/day is the equivalent of the effect of ~7lbs of muscle on metabolism

and you can save a little more going for vodka or zero-cal mixers

not saying it's earth-shattering, but it's not *nothing*. If you drink 10 shots, you probably even get less than the 8 shots worth of calories too, because when you binge drink you body starts to use less effective pathways to metabolize alcohol. We're talking a few hundred calories saved (vs if every calorie counted)!

lol

[Ghawk21]

Lets say he did save a few 100 calories from the 10 shots....that's still an additional ~7-800 calories(not including whatever the mix or chase). On top of OP not consuming enough protein, not training for 6-12 months and binge eating to go along with the boozing. WTF is the point of arguing about TEF when theres several far more important and glaring issues. Not to mention hes using some useless machine to judge fat and muscle gained and lost.( you do not gain 7lbs of lean mass while not going to the gym)

OP, start training again, consume at least 0.7g/lb of bodyweight in protein, 0.4g/lb in fat and then figure out your TDEE to fill the rest of the calories however you wish. If you can still drink and fit it into your calorie allowance and get adequate protein, fats and vitamins then have a few drinks. If you can't then its you own fault you got fat and maybe you should cut back. You already acknowledged your problem, consistency.

[Luclin999]

not saying it's earth-shattering, but it's not *nothing*. if you drink 10 shots, you probably even get less than the 8 shots worth of calories too,

Sure.

However, after 10 shots most people that had been in a sustained calorie deficit would be hammered enough to say "What the Hell? Why not?" and slam back a platter of ribs along with half a pizza and not remember most of it the next day.

So... 10 shots of vodka = about 8 shots of vodka worth of calories ...plus about 1500-3000 calories of drunken binge eating.