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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post

    Edit: Madcow / Starr's Power Program is a strength program more than a specific powerlifting program. You can get a lot stronger on Madcow, but you can't peak for a powerlifting meet using it. It doesn't train technique enough to execute perfectly on the platform, but it does build muscle and strength. If a powerlifter grows out of Madcow then he/she's going to train more specifically for their meet.
    What Madcow posted was the intermediate version of the program. There is a peaking version.You'll find some of those programs in Starr's book Defying Gravity. But my point was that back when Madcow posted the program if anyone had known what it was they wouldn't have even tried it. For those that did and there were a lot of them, it worked very well. For an advanced power lifter you're going to need an advanced program.
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  2. #32
    Time is Muscle ECGordyn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    What Madcow posted was the intermediate version of the program. There is a peaking version.You'll find some of those programs in Starr's book Defying Gravity. But my point was that back when Madcow posted the program if anyone had known what it was they wouldn't have even tried it. For those that did and there were a lot of them, it worked very well. For an advanced power lifter you're going to need an advanced program.
    Ok, but I'd guess that most users start(ed) with the basic Madcow. I've got a copy of the advanced version, where weeks 5-9 are 3x3, and yes that one is more like a peaking program. I say "more like" because (1) it doesn't train singles, (2) it's not exactly specific to the 3 powerlifts (the program also peaks your row and incline press, which aren't in competition), and (3) it doesn't have a taper.

    But yes I see your point about beginners not being interested in it.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Ok, but I'd guess that most users start(ed) with the basic Madcow. I've got a copy of the advanced version, where weeks 5-9 are 3x3, and yes that one is more like a peaking program. I say "more like" because (1) it doesn't train singles, (2) it's not exactly specific to the 3 powerlifts (the program also peaks your row and incline press, which aren't in competition), and (3) it doesn't have a taper.

    But yes I see your point about beginners not being interested in it.
    Madcow heavily edited the program and he didn't post the final phase. He swapped power cleans for row and Starr didn't use percentages to set the program up. Madcow or possibly Glenn Pendelay set the program up for average weight trainer. If it had been posted as written nobody here would have tried it.
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  4. #34
    Time is Muscle ECGordyn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    My points regarding the differences I notices on these two approches were:

    a) 1-5 reps vs 8-15 reps = and I've came to a point that it's better to do them all. 5 reps, 10 reps, 15 reps.

    Yes it's best to do all rep ranges. Even powerlifters train all rep ranges.

    b) compounds vs isolation - the second approach considers some compounds either not optimal, either as good as the isolation. Their arguments are:
    - "compounds make you recover harder, CNS fatigue"
    - "you have to stimulate the muscle, not to anihilate it and an exercise like a deadlift can make you very sore"
    - "compound means you are only dividing the stimulus on several muscles and it is not better than a single joint exercise. Can you gain muscles only with compounds? Yes, but it's not optimal!"
    - "deadlifts, for example, what do they work? hams, glutes, traps, but it's not a complete movement of the muscle. it's an isometric movement for traps, it's not a complete movement"
    - "squats vs press - you can feel you quads much better an the press, you have a better connection with the muscle"

    Again, that depends on your goals. Bodybuilders would choose isolations to sculpt the muscles, whereas powerlifters would choose the big 3 compounds to train specifically for their sport. The general strength trainer should emphasize compounds over isolations.

    I added the quotes because I quotes them, not necesarly my opinions
    My reply in bold just to clarify who said what.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by ECGordyn View Post
    Depends which gym you go to. 9 out of 10 is a very high generalization. Commercial gyms might have a percentage that high, but powerlifitng gyms or a gym like Untamed Strength (Alan Thrall's gym), Empire Barbell, The Strength Edge (Calgary Barbell's gym), Iron Den Gym (Candito's gym in Houston), have clients who are much more geared towards other goals.



    More volume bruh...and more juices. GVT 20x20



    That's a good example of strength training that many people confuse with powerlifting. People start with strength training because they want to get stronger and/or look better, and then later they get into powerlifting. The difference between the two goals isn't so clear to many beginners.

    Edit: Madcow / Starr's Power Program is a strength program more than a specific powerlifting program. You can get a lot stronger on Madcow, but you can't peak for a powerlifting meet using it. It doesn't train technique enough to execute perfectly on the platform, but it does build muscle and strength. If a powerlifter grows out of Madcow then he/she's going to train more specifically for their meet.
    From the pen of Bill Starr, "Once trainees move to the intermediate or advanced levels they need to vary their set and rep sequence. For example, they should do some lower reps so they can overload their attachments. If you only do five reps in the bench press and decide to test yourself with a max single, you’re going to be disappointed simply because your attachments aren’t adequately prepared. The lower the reps, the more the tendons and ligaments are involved. Consequently, any successful strength routine will change constantly so that at various times you do fives, threes, twos and singles." https://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2018/0...ill-starr.html
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Magomed1 View Post
    Of course they can experiment...they have help with their supplements. Thus allowing them to grow with doing anything that stimulates the muscles. You're comparing two different sports and ways to train for each sport. Its like saying which grappler is better a wrestler or a BJJ player. Lots of overlap with moves, but two different rule sets.





    Except thats not how volume is determined. It's your weekly reps completed per exercise.

    So if you're doing 3x12 bench 2x a week you're doing 72 weekly reps on bench. Now if you're doing a chest DAY and you're doing 4 chest specific lifts for 3x12 2x a week then you're doing 288 weekly reps...big difference.

    And generally the folks that are doing sets of 12 are doing more than one lift per muscle group.

    Yes you up the weight when it becomes easy, thats called progressive overload. However its a lot easier to make progress on 5x5 than 5x10 or 4x15.

    In order to do 5x10, you're looking at a minimum of 50-65% of your 1RM. For 5x5 you're using around 80% 1RM. So for lets say a 200lb max on bench.

    5x10 would be roughly between 100-135lbs.
    5x5 would be 160lbs.

    In order for your 5x10 weight to match your 5x5 weight you have to increase your 1RM to 245-250lbs. And you're not gonna put 50 lbs on your bench by doing 5x10 or 4x15. And thats using the high end of 65%.

    I don't know what to say. There are many people on the juice who are not big or shredded. Even with the special suppplements, you need a good workout and a good selection of exercises.
    I am comparing two principles from 2 different sports as to see which one is the optimal one for someone who wants mainly hipertrophy.


    I agree with what you said. Easier to make progress on 5x5. But isn't it easier to get injured? Especially as a beginner? I've read that most of the injuries happen on a 5 rep set max and rarely on a 10-12 set.
    Also, harder to recover from the 5x5.
    Harder for the joints, from my experience.
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  7. #37
    1stUncle fought Sugar Ray etet1919's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    I don't know what to say. There are many people on the juice who are not big or shredded. Even with the special suppplements, you need a good workout and a good selection of exercises.
    I am comparing two principles from 2 different sports as to see which one is the optimal one for someone who wants mainly hipertrophy.


    I agree with what you said. Easier to make progress on 5x5. But isn't it easier to get injured? Especially as a beginner? I've read that most of the injuries happen on a 5 rep set max and rarely on a 10-12 set.
    Also, harder to recover from the 5x5.
    Harder for the joints, from my experience.
    It will always be easier on the joints when you're new to weight lifting, no matter the type of training or program! You've only been training for a year? This IS the best time to lift heavy, IMHO. Just learn correct form.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    I don't know what to say. There are many people on the juice who are not big or shredded. Even with the special suppplements, you need a good workout and a good selection of exercises.
    I am comparing two principles from 2 different sports as to see which one is the optimal one for someone who wants mainly hipertrophy.


    I agree with what you said. Easier to make progress on 5x5. But isn't it easier to get injured? Especially as a beginner? I've read that most of the injuries happen on a 5 rep set max and rarely on a 10-12 set.
    Also, harder to recover from the 5x5.
    Harder for the joints, from my experience.
    I dont like straight set 5x5 as a protocol much at all, but I've seen no evidence to say it leads to more injury or is harder on joints than higher reps schemes, if anything form always deteriorates more with higher reps as they become less technical and more cardio heavy
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by etet1919 View Post
    It will always be easier on the joints when you're new to weight lifting, no matter the type of training or program! You've only been training for a year? This IS the best time to lift heavy, IMHO. Just learn correct form.
    ^This. Years lifting and age in general, along with wear-and-tear from other sports, tend to be the thing that wears down joints - rather than a specific rep range, as long as you're using a weight where you can keep proper form regardless of rep range.
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    I dont like straight set 5x5 as a protocol much at all, but I've seen no evidence to say it leads to more injury or is harder on joints than higher reps schemes, if anything form always deteriorates more with higher reps as they become less technical and more cardio heavy
    A properly designed program based on the 5x5 protocol will really be ideal for the development of strength and myofibrillar hypertrophy. Why? I will illustrate with a specific example:
    Suppose in a “hard training session” you do 5x5 with 75-85% of 1RM. From the point of view of the Prilepin table, this will be a difficult developmental training. Verkhoshansky also mentions in his book such training as developing strength and hypertrophy.
    The second training session in the same weekly microcycle
    can pass with weights 60-65% of 1RM. This is already a training of the form of strength exercise, dynamic lifting and strength endurance (provided that pauses of rest between sets are short).
    In the third training session, you can use a different load protocol as a recovery training. For example 3x8 with a weight of 55-60% of 1RM in a slightly different exercise in biomechanics. Those. if in the first two training sessions we trained a bench press, now it can be an inclined press.
    Thus, if we calculate the relative intensity in the main exercise (a parameter from weightlifting and powerlifting), then we get about 70% of 1RM.
    Ideal for developing strength.
    For powerlifters, of course, just 5x5 training is not enough. For the development of neurological skill, it is necessary to lift weights 85-90% of RM and heavier. But this can already be realized in the next, directly pre-competitive load block.
    -
    If we talk about bodybuilders, amateurs, then programs based on 5x5 are great for developing strength. In the periodization of the bodybuilder, this will be a block of strength development.
    n this video, I press standing at 87.5 kg (193 lbs) for 5 repetitions in the 5th set.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNKlEW6xnKY
    The method works! )))
    bench press 167.5 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    standing press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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  11. #41
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    Of course it works , but i wouldnt call it ideal for any goal.

    Powerlifters need singles, preferably 1@8 since that's the best blend of high intensity work without too much fatigue, and just doing this in certain blocks ala old school "periodisation" makes no sense.

    for hypertrophy goals it's too much fatigue for the work

    for general strength I would still prefer a work up to a hard set of 5 whether that's @8 or @9 and then back offs, It's more efficient and regulates how much work you need that day better than an arbitrary 5x5 ?%
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by etet1919 View Post
    It will always be easier on the joints when you're new to weight lifting, no matter the type of training or program! You've only been training for a year? This IS the best time to lift heavy, IMHO. Just learn correct form.
    Yes, the epidemy ended my year.
    When mentioning 'heavy', do you mean 5 rep max?
    8 reps are considered heavy?


    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    I dont like straight set 5x5 as a protocol much at all, but I've seen no evidence to say it leads to more injury or is harder on joints than higher reps schemes, if anything form always deteriorates more with higher reps as they become less technical and more cardio heavy
    I've read this
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hardgainer6.htm
    "How many repetitions should you perform? I have experimented with the number of repetitions from singles all the way to 20-rep sets. With a rep count of 8 or above I have never been injured. I have been injured several times using reps of 5 or less. For a long period of time I used exclusively fives or less. This was the period of time in my training when I thought anything above 5 reps was aerobic."


    Also, from the videos I've seen on youtube, it gave me this impression
    I've seen a week ago a compilation of teared biceps
    Most of them were on deadlifts, 1 RM - advanced lifters during contests, not beginners with poor form
    Preacher curl with heavy weight
    Even during a bodybuilding contest, on stage

    Yes, I am aware of the fact that 1 RM is different than 5 RM so I assume you have valid point.
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    There's a giant misconception out there that one training for strength or for a better physique are mutually exclusive goals which is where the common "powerlifting versus bodybuilding" argument ends up being played out.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with hitting the weight room with a Flex magazine workout in hand and little to no programming at all. If that's someone's cup of tea, then so be it; at least they're active. With that being said, I don't think it's the most efficient or effective use of one's time in the gym.

    People who train with -some- quantitative strength goals in mind have a metric to work with. And, that metric will help them develop other goals and track other metrics that will help them reach their overall goal; a better physique.

    Someone's goal for the workout was to get a total volume of 30 reps worth of incline dumbbell presses at a particular weight. They've haven't met that goal in two weeks. If they've been trying to get the most out of their training, they'll have been tracking the rest of their workouts, sleep, nutrition, recovery protocols (etc). They can go back, look at what they've been doing and make adjustments to what they're doing.

    Those adjustments will not only help them reach their strength goal, but they'll help them develop their physique. Ooops, they may see haven't been getting enough sleep. Oops... They may see that their diet has been off.. Ooops, they may see that they're going apechit on their tricep work...

    IME, people that don't have a metric to work with don't track much of anything. And, they end up beating their heads against a wall or getting subpar results.
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    Of course it works , but i wouldnt call it ideal for any goal.

    Powerlifters need singles, preferably 1@8 since that's the best blend of high intensity work without too much fatigue, and just doing this in certain blocks ala old school "periodisation" makes no sense.

    for hypertrophy goals it's too much fatigue for the work

    for general strength I would still prefer a work up to a hard set of 5 whether that's @8 or @9 and then back offs, It's more efficient and regulates how much work you need that day better than an arbitrary 5x5 ?%
    There are a considerable number of objective reasons why strength training should not be built on singles. Singles are just a small part of the training of an experienced power athlete. Yes, I know that Doug Hepburn and successful Bulgarian weightlifters existed in this world. So what? For a more "average" person, continuous training based on singles with submaximal loads will not give anything but overwork of the nervous system and an excessive number of microtraumas in the muscles and connective tissues.
    ---
    For those who studied the "classical" textbooks on strength training, it has long been known that approximately 70% of all barbell lifts should fall in intensity zones between 70% and 90% of 1RM. That is why training in the 5x5 protocol (or 4-6x4-6, it does not matter) can occupy a significant place in the training of power athletes.
    bench press 167.5 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    standing press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    There are a considerable number of objective reasons why strength training should not be built on singles. Singles are just a small part of the training of an experienced power athlete. Yes, I know that Doug Hepburn and successful Bulgarian weightlifters existed in this world. So what? For a more "average" person, continuous training based on singles with submaximal loads will not give anything but overwork of the nervous system and an excessive number of microtraumas in the muscles and connective tissues.
    ---
    For those who studied the "classical" textbooks on strength training, it has long been known that approximately 70% of all barbell lifts should fall in intensity zones between 70% and 90% of 1RM. That is why training in the 5x5 protocol (or 4-6x4-6, it does not matter) can occupy a significant place in the training of power athletes.
    I didn't say it should all be built around singles, far from it. I was also not talking anything close to Bulgarian.

    There is zero evidence that doing singles at 8 will "overwork the nervous system".

    Classical textbooks are not a great basis for modern discussion.
    See John Kiely discussions for more on why outdated models are an issue
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    I don't know what to say. There are many people on the juice who are not big or shredded. Even with the special suppplements, you need a good workout and a good selection of exercises.
    I am comparing two principles from 2 different sports as to see which one is the optimal one for someone who wants mainly hipertrophy.


    I agree with what you said. Easier to make progress on 5x5. But isn't it easier to get injured? Especially as a beginner? I've read that most of the injuries happen on a 5 rep set max and rarely on a 10-12 set.
    Also, harder to recover from the 5x5.
    Harder for the joints, from my experience.
    Woth taking other illegal supplements you do not need a good program or exercises to make gains. Hence why you see IFBB pros doing kickbacks.

    No, not easier to get injuried...thats complete broscience. If your form is good then injuries do not happen. When your form breaksdown and you press on THAT is when injuries happen. That can happen during 20 rep squats or during sets of 3.

    The reason you do not see a lot of injuries from 8-12 reps is because the load, percentages, is light enough that it will allow for slight breakdowns. However using 80-95% and even a slight breakdown can cause a big issue. Such as torn pecs and biceps.
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    Originally Posted by WolfRose7 View Post
    I didn't say it should all be built around singles, far from it. I was also not talking anything close to Bulgarian.

    There is zero evidence that doing singles at 8 will "overwork the nervous system".

    Classical textbooks are not a great basis for modern discussion.
    See John Kiely discussions for more on why outdated models are an issue
    I don’t know who John Kieli is, but in general it’s not important. If he says something radically opposite than what Medvedev, Verkhoshansky and Chernyak once wrote, then he is wrong.
    You can not consider force only as a one-shot lifting skill. Strength training is primarily the training of the creatine phosphate energy production system. And these are large volumes of load at an average level of intensity from 1 RM.
    bench press 167.5 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    standing press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    I don’t know who John Kieli is, but in general it’s not important. If he says something radically opposite than what Medvedev, Verkhoshansky and Chernyak once wrote, then he is wrong.
    You can not consider force only as a one-shot lifting skill. Strength training is primarily the training of the creatine phosphate energy production system. And these are large volumes of load at an average level of intensity from 1 RM.
    http://fpio.org.ru/data/50-powerlib/...d_Practice.pdf
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    I don’t know who John Kieli is, but in general it’s not important. If he says something radically opposite than what Medvedev, Verkhoshansky and Chernyak once wrote, then he is wrong.
    You can not consider force only as a one-shot lifting skill. Strength training is primarily the training of the creatine phosphate energy production system. And these are large volumes of load at an average level of intensity from 1 RM.
    You left out strengthening of the joints, tendons and ligaments and MOST importantly optimizing the CNS. That means that training in the 80 - 95% range is REQUIRED! As is maximum speed work. I was a member of Dr. Verkhoshansky web site for a very long time! Maximum effort + Repetition effort + Speed effort = MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE!
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    You left out strengthening of the joints, tendons and ligaments and MOST importantly optimizing the CNS. That means that training in the 80 - 95% range is REQUIRED! As is maximum speed work. I was a member of Dr. Verkhoshansky web site for a very long time! Maximum effort + Repetition effort + Speed effort = MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE!
    I did not leave this question unattended and wrote earlier that for these qualities you can directly devote a "pre-competitive" block, if this is about training a powerlifter or weightlifter. According to the “classical” Soviet school, no more than 5% of all lifts should be assigned to barbell lifts with an intensity of over 90% of 1RНагрузка в зонах интенсивности.jpgM. This is an excerpt from Chernyak’s textbook, one can say the “Weightlifters Bible”.
    bench press 167.5 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    standing press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Originally Posted by Magomed1 View Post
    Woth taking other illegal supplements you do not need a good program or exercises to make gains. Hence why you see IFBB pros doing kickbacks.

    No, not easier to get injuried...thats complete broscience. If your form is good then injuries do not happen. When your form breaksdown and you press on THAT is when injuries happen. That can happen during 20 rep squats or during sets of 3.

    The reason you do not see a lot of injuries from 8-12 reps is because the load, percentages, is light enough that it will allow for slight breakdowns. However using 80-95% and even a slight breakdown can cause a big issue. Such as torn pecs and biceps.
    If you are talking about tricep kickbacks, because it is an tricep isolation exercise that puts a good stretch on the muscle and some tension? It's not a mass builder, sure.


    So you believe that any guy who takes illegal stuff and goes to the gym and lifts whatever he wants will get big?
    Also, not only the IFBB guys are on illegal stuff. Powerlifters, weightlifters, cyclists, bjj guys and so on..
    The tests can be passed or faked.
    Sure, many IFBB guys abuse them, no arguing here.



    Deadlift Hamstring Tears || Compilation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o34wz95wJSA

    DEADLIFT BICEP TEARS || COMPILATION
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5en4IMcZos


    I know it is a 1 RM in this videos and you will have a forme breakdown no matter what, but some of them have proper form and in some of them they didn't even complete half of the movement.
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    There are definitely people who feel that you can't build strength with high rep ranges, and that 20 rep sets will do nothing for strength. This conjures up thoughts of what the Russians were finding from their research in the 80's. They were mainly dealing with Olympic Weightlifting though and not power-lifting. Olympic weightlifting is more dependent on technique than maybe any other form of weight-training.

    There are absolutely plenty of Power-lifters and strength athletes who do lots of exercises in higher rep ranges. There are the programs where you start with 10's and work your way down to progressively lower rep ranges over time, and there's undulated periodization. Then there's assistance exercises that are done with higher reps even when the main lifts are low rep. Look up Ed Coan programs, and you'll find higher rep ranges. He didn't do all of his training in sets of 5 or less.

    If sets of five are hurting your joints then you're probably going too heavy too often. Power-lifters may use low rep ranges to keep the intensity high, but they also do a lot of sub-maximal sets where they avoid even coming close to failure. Failure is more important for creating the type of metabolic stress that creates hypertrophy than it is for training your CNS to handle heavier weights.

    Also, who said that training your biceps directly is a sin in power-lifting? Hammer curls especially are common among power-lifters, and are great for preventing the elbow pain that a lot of people get from benching. Plus, they're good for adding size to your arms, and mass gives you better leverage. 30 rep hammer-curls are great for power-lifters.
    Last edited by 360365LAWS; 05-26-2020 at 08:00 PM.
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    You can build muscle from 1-50 reps. Seems the best approach for natural lifters who just simply want to look the best they can is a compound excersise per muscle group I.e. squat, bench, deadlift in the low rep range 3-5 reps and some isolations per muscle group in the upper range 8+ reps. Follow a programme that incorporates these principles and that's it, people over complicate everything. I don't personally know anyone who has a decent physique who has built their bodies on only high reps naturally or only low reps, low reps you will gain mass for sure but you won't look as good as you could.

    Arms day is necessary if your goal is to build big arms especially if it's a bad body part, it's my weakest body part so I have one. It all depends on your goals at the end of the day.
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    I usually find threads like this a bit depressing because we get a lot of posts from the strength/powerlifting side of the fence and a bunch of posts from the BB side of the fence and rarely do opinions change. So often it's just 2 immovable sides trying to show why each is right and little else but static arguing.

    However I've been greatly enjoying this one, mostly due to All Pro's very informative posts. Thanks All Pro! (and also thanks to content from mdonnelley, magomed and Oleg)
    Faith in Jesus first and faith in squats second.
    Then other details will start to slot themselves into place.

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    Originally Posted by 360365LAWS View Post
    There are definitely people who feel that you can't build strength with high rep ranges, and that 20 rep sets will do nothing for strength. This reminds me of what the Russians were finding from their research in the 80's. They were mainly dealing with Olympic Weightlifting though and not power-lifting. Olympic weightlifting is more dependent on technique than maybe any other form of weight-training.

    There are absolutely plenty of Power-lifters and strength athletes who do lots of exercises in higher rep ranges. There are the programs where you start with 10's and work your way down to progressively lower rep ranges over time, and there's undulated peridoaztion. Then there's assistance exercises that are done with higher reps even when the main lifts are low rep. Look up Ed Coan programs, and you'll find higher rep ranges. He didn't do all of his training in sets of 5 or less.

    If sets of five are hurting your joints then you're probably going too heavy too often. Power-lifters may use low rep ranges to keep the intensity high, but they also do a lot of sub-maximal sets where they avoid even coming close to failure. Failure is more important for creating the type of metabolic stress that creates hypertrophy than it is for training your CNS to handle heavier weights.

    Also, who said that training your biceps directly is a sin in power-lifting? Hammer curls especially are common among power-lifters, and are great for preventing the elbow pain that a lot of people get from benching. Plus, they're good for adding size to your arms, and mass gives you better leverage. 30 rep hammer-curls are great for power-lifters.
    If you re-read what I wrote, I'm agreeing with you and so were the Soviet coaches, Lou Simmons, Fred Hatfield, Bill Starr and pretty much anyone else that has a clue.
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    Originally Posted by jaxqen View Post
    If you are talking about tricep kickbacks, because it is an tricep isolation exercise that puts a good stretch on the muscle and some tension? It's not a mass builder, sure.


    So you believe that any guy who takes illegal stuff and goes to the gym and lifts whatever he wants will get big?
    Also, not only the IFBB guys are on illegal stuff. Powerlifters, weightlifters, cyclists, bjj guys and so on..
    The tests can be passed or faked.
    Sure, many IFBB guys abuse them, no arguing here.



    Deadlift Hamstring Tears || Compilation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o34wz95wJSA

    DEADLIFT BICEP TEARS || COMPILATION
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5en4IMcZos


    I know it is a 1 RM in this videos and you will have a forme breakdown no matter what, but some of them have proper form and in some of them they didn't even complete half of the movement.
    You'll notice in the biceps tear video, ever single one was from the mixed grip hand, meaning they're curling the weight with that arm..hence then tear...and that isn't proper form, hence the injury. Like I said before.

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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    I usually find threads like this a bit depressing because we get a lot of posts from the strength/powerlifting side of the fence and a bunch of posts from the BB side of the fence and rarely do opinions change. So often it's just 2 immovable sides trying to show why each is right and little else but static arguing.

    However I've been greatly enjoying this one, mostly due to All Pro's very informative posts. Thanks All Pro! (and also thanks to content from mdonnelley, magomed and Oleg)
    Thank you sir. I always do my best to cloud the issue with facts.
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    Thank you sir. I always do my best to cloud the issue with facts.
    I've been trying to find a routine to get back in with once quarantine is over and you've convinced me on madcow 5x5. If I'm in the gym as a natty, I want to be able to optimize every second i'm in there for maximum gains in strength and hypertrophy. For some reason what you said about people having great results on such a program as 5x5 but likely being against it if they knew who was behind it reinforced the idea that there's a lot of mumbojumo out there.

    Thanks for your input man, it helps a lot of us out who don't know a ton but are looking to fill up on knowledge that's credible and usable.
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    People need to realise that the classical textbooks are neither complete nor infallible...
    And that many things stated as fact are provabley false or misrepresented or the original intents where lost in translation.. And dont v even start on the cluster f of supertraining...

    The x1@8 example (around 90% 1rm and very much in line with the much loved prilipins chart) An outstanding submax protocol to keep the skill of high intensity/low rep training without too much stress. Which can be potentially run year round with no issues.

    As for john Keily, he studied under Anatoli Bonderchuck, possibly the greatest sport coach in the world.

    .....

    More importantly, powerlifting and bodybuilding training honestly has a lot more overlap than people thing. Most see the extreme ends, such as Bulgarian vs 30rep pump sets. The truth is much more in between, in the grey not black and white.

    In general Powerlifters will use sets in the double digits, and low reps will do slow tempo work, Bench With Feet up, will curl and shrug and train their delts all for mass much how bodybuilders do... Everyone needs more muscle..

    The difference comes more in the minutiae of sport specificity.. Powerlifters need more practice at the sport and bodybuilders need to add muscle to specific areas for their 'sport'

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/4aY...S8C7gfuf7jlSCA

    Great listen for cardio time. Bodybuilders and top tier coaches taking about maxing.

    ... Everyone arguing about crap that really doesn't matter especially given that everything works until it doesn't.

    And when people state that only one way is right and the rest is wrong, i stop listening and let them enjoy their little closed minded box of arrogance where they can spend their time never advancing, never learning and never improving. Dinosaurs are obsolete for a reason.
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    Originally Posted by imirish34 View Post
    I've been trying to find a routine to get back in with once quarantine is over and you've convinced me on madcow 5x5. If I'm in the gym as a natty, I want to be able to optimize every second i'm in there for maximum gains in strength and hypertrophy. For some reason what you said about people having great results on such a program as 5x5 but likely being against it if they knew who was behind it reinforced the idea that there's a lot of mumbojumo out there.

    Thanks for your input man, it helps a lot of us out who don't know a ton but are looking to fill up on knowledge that's credible and usable.
    You're very welcome.
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