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    Thumbs up I just spun my wheels FML and what do I do now?

    Hello Everyone,

    Hope all is well. Straight to the point in April 2019 I weighed 78kg/171.6lbs all fat no muscle at all. At the end of 2019 I managed to get my weight down to 65kgs/143lbs but actually got it down in 7 months but just cruised for the rest of 2019 as to say. I was then considered skinny fat based on the images I provided etc and was suggested to lean bulk. So I started lean bulking at the beginning of the year and got roughly 2.5-3 months in at the gym then this whole epidemic of corona virus went banana's and I was no longer able to go to the gym. I continued to track my macros at maintenance however steadily day by day not sure what, maybe the stress or I just fked up (likely) I now weigh 75kg/165lbs all fat and back to square one. I should of listened to the people that suggested to lean bulk or just slightly surplus for a while like 6-12 months then cut latter as I would be cutting to nothing and BINGO they were correct.however I had always been fat and just wanted the fat gone. So now I am where I am now, don't know when the gyms are opening up again in my country. So just want to ask what do I do now? Shall i cut back to skinny fat to 65kg/143lbs or lean bulk to 90kgs/198lbs? My heaviest ever weight I have been is 110kgs/242lbs and ALL FAT. Got at least 6 months of the year remaining so what do I do? I am fat currently but wouldnt midn going bear mode so that my arms shrug my shirts lol.

    Stats:
    5'8" /173cm Height
    75kgs/165lbs
    Thanks to everyone who has previously answered my questions and given sound advice and to the people that will or may comment again, thanks.
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    How does your strength compare between now and last year?

    You can answer this using 10 rep maximums (say) or something similar - for each of the main lifts - lets say, squat, deadlift, bench press, pullup, overhead press
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    Good to hear from you again, but sad to hear you haven't been getting the results you're after.

    Firstly, if you were eating at maintenance, you would have gained no weight, so you must have been in a caloric surplus. Ideally, you would have gained about 10-12lb since the start of the year while consistently resistance training to keep your gains lean - a 250 calorie surplus would be about right for that.

    Simply by looking at your numbers, I expect many here will automatically recommend a lean bulk, but having seen your pics and knowing you haven't been lifting, I expect you are back above 20% body fat. My default recommendation would be a slow cut (deficit of 500 calories or less) while weight training and eating adequate protein. Otherwise you could focus on getting stronger while eating at maintenance and cut later.
    Age: 36
    Height: 185cm (6'1")
    Weight: 77.7kg (171lb)

    Personal best lifts
    Bench - 9 x 57.5kg (127lb), 16 x 50kg (110lb)
    Bent-over row - 8 x 62.5kg (138lb)
    Front squat - 5 x 60kg (132lb), 8 x 57.5kg (127lb)
    Back squat - 5 x 67.5kg (149lb)
    RDL - 9 x 85kg (187lb), 11 x 82.5kg (182lb)
    Deadlift - 6 x 92.5kg (204lb), 8 x 90kg (198lb)
    Overhead Press - 6 x 40kg (88lb)
    Chin Ups - 7 x bodyweight + 7.5kg (16.5lb), 12 x bodyweight
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    How does your strength compare between now and last year?

    You can answer this using 10 rep maximums (say) or something similar - for each of the main lifts - lets say, squat, deadlift, bench press, pullup, overhead press
    Hey, nice to see you still on fourms thanks for always replying mate. Ehh my strength has been subpar to be honest it has not improved since I was cutting all of last year and would say my max strength is still the same on Fierce 5. This was and probably is my strongest lifts: https://imgur.com/a/HSKgWvy. For all lifts I can max the rep ranges on fierce 5.
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    Good to hear from you again, but sad to hear you haven't been getting the results you're after.

    Firstly, if you were eating at maintenance, you would have gained no weight, so you must have been in a caloric surplus. Ideally, you would have gained about 10-12lb since the start of the year while consistently resistance training to keep your gains lean - a 250 calorie surplus would be about right for that.

    Simply by looking at your numbers, I expect many here will automatically recommend a lean bulk, but having seen your pics and knowing you haven't been lifting, I expect you are back above 20% body fat. My default recommendation would be a slow cut (deficit of 500 calories or less) while weight training and eating adequate protein. Otherwise you could focus on getting stronger while eating at maintenance and cut later.
    Hey likewise, nice to see you guys are still active , it's no biggie but I should of listened to what what all you guys were stating but happy with I have accomplished nevertheless, but speak about timing with everything going and fitness, its not really working in our favor.

    Yeah totally guilty of screwing that up must be the condiments hhaha like sauces and etc cause I know before I made a thread about how I was cutting and still gaining weight nd it was 100% not tracking the sauces by weighing them and just going willy nilly. Yeah I would of gained some good weight if I had consistently trained, not sure if I would of kept any gains as none were made during the cut LOL was cutting at 1500 calories which I think was to sever for me or to drastic while also doing cardio 3x a week burning 300 calories. Most of the 10kgs/20lbs I have gained shows in my mid section so that is sort of a plus because my pant size has not gone up by that much only 4 inchs maybe that is to much idk.

    Yeah I would take on that advice but it just seems like I would be repeating what I did last year lol seems like a de ja vu and not the great kind. Thoughts on me lean bulking ? If so up to which point should I leant bulk if I am currently at the weight I have suggested?
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    OK so clearly you improved your lifts on F5 - but you still have a long way to go and need to keep going. The thing to do after finishing a routine like Fierce 5 is to keep doing something similar - but perhaps with a little more total volume (not a lot more - just a step up). Perhaps look at another novice routine in the sticky threads and try that.

    The key is to continue to make progressive overload in a handful of lifts. Pushing yourself beyond previous limits regularly is important. This can be by doing more reps with the same weight or increasing weight - or doing more sets with the same number of reps (to name a few).

    As for calorie intake, cutting is always going to hamper or completely stop muscle gain - it seems like you've spent a lot time cutting. When you do mass gain, keep weight gain down to under 2lbs a month otherwise you run out of room.
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    Originally Posted by fattofame3 View Post
    Hey likewise, nice to see you guys are still active , it's no biggie but I should of listened to what what all you guys were stating but happy with I have accomplished nevertheless, but speak about timing with everything going and fitness, its not really working in our favor.

    Yeah totally guilty of screwing that up must be the condiments hhaha like sauces and etc cause I know before I made a thread about how I was cutting and still gaining weight nd it was 100% not tracking the sauces by weighing them and just going willy nilly. Yeah I would of gained some good weight if I had consistently trained, not sure if I would of kept any gains as none were made during the cut LOL was cutting at 1500 calories which I think was to sever for me or to drastic while also doing cardio 3x a week burning 300 calories. Most of the 10kgs/20lbs I have gained shows in my mid section so that is sort of a plus because my pant size has not gone up by that much only 4 inchs maybe that is to much idk.

    Yeah I would take on that advice but it just seems like I would be repeating what I did last year lol seems like a de ja vu and not the great kind. Thoughts on me lean bulking ? If so up to which point should I leant bulk if I am currently at the weight I have suggested?
    A new pic would help, but I don't feel comfortable suggesting you bulk if you are already over 20% body fat. The thing is, you really should have been able to gain some strength and build a little muscle while cutting last time, so I'm not sure what went wrong.

    That said, I can totally understand you not wanting to go down the same road as last time, which is why I suggested trying for a recomp - eat at maintenance or thereabouts while focusing on getting stronger. If you do decide to lean bulk, do it for at least 4 months, gaining no more than 2-3lb per month.
    Age: 36
    Height: 185cm (6'1")
    Weight: 77.7kg (171lb)

    Personal best lifts
    Bench - 9 x 57.5kg (127lb), 16 x 50kg (110lb)
    Bent-over row - 8 x 62.5kg (138lb)
    Front squat - 5 x 60kg (132lb), 8 x 57.5kg (127lb)
    Back squat - 5 x 67.5kg (149lb)
    RDL - 9 x 85kg (187lb), 11 x 82.5kg (182lb)
    Deadlift - 6 x 92.5kg (204lb), 8 x 90kg (198lb)
    Overhead Press - 6 x 40kg (88lb)
    Chin Ups - 7 x bodyweight + 7.5kg (16.5lb), 12 x bodyweight
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    OK so clearly you improved your lifts on F5 - but you still have a long way to go and need to keep going. The thing to do after finishing a routine like Fierce 5 is to keep doing something similar - but perhaps with a little more total volume (not a lot more - just a step up). Perhaps look at another novice routine in the sticky threads and try that.

    The key is to continue to make progressive overload in a handful of lifts. Pushing yourself beyond previous limits regularly is important. This can be by doing more reps with the same weight or increasing weight - or doing more sets with the same number of reps (to name a few).

    As for calorie intake, cutting is always going to hamper or completely stop muscle gain - it seems like you've spent a lot time cutting. When you do mass gain, keep weight gain down to under 2lbs a month otherwise you run out of room.
    Noted, however the progress I mentioned was during cutting and in the span of 6 months. My question is you mentioned to start to look at another novice program however, everyone stats to stick to one routine like F5 until you hit certain numbers like 220lbs bench 300 squat and 360lbs dead lift etc and until you hit those numbers not to move to a different program. I did do VBB Novice but found it was too much volume during cutting and took to long where F5 was manageable but I sometimes found F5 didn't have a enough volume but that is just my stupidity in thinking doing lot of work = more mass when in fact its calories in vs calories out.

    Should I just continue with F5 and keep doing progressive overload until I hit roughly the numbers mentioned in the above paragraph of just move to a different program like a Upper Lower?
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    A new pic would help, but I don't feel comfortable suggesting you bulk if you are already over 20% body fat. The thing is, you really should have been able to gain some strength and build a little muscle while cutting last time, so I'm not sure what went wrong.

    That said, I can totally understand you not wanting to go down the same road as last time, which is why I suggested trying for a re comp - eat at maintenance or thereabouts while focusing on getting stronger. If you do decide to lean bulk, do it for at least 4 months, gaining no more than 2-3lb per month.
    Yeah I get your point. Yeah I don't know what went wrong lol.

    Yeah re comp seems to be feasible but based on my research and what I read here and there on this forum it seem like re-comp does not work unless you are complete noob or just came back from a lay off in which your body adapts and regains what you once had. I am not in either position from what I can tell. But If I were to go through I guess I would just try to eat at maintenance and theoretically eat at surplus as you can't 100% track calories to the T if you get what I mean. I am now wondering do I stick with the same routine or change things up? Upper Lower or just choose anything I fancy ?
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    We don't want people to keep program hopping - but OTOH if something isn't working having given it a good try, move on. You need BOTH enough volume and enough calories/protein. So why not do the VBB on a calorie surplus?
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    I think Fierce 5 Novice would probably serve you well, although I wouldn't worry about hitting any arbitrary strength standards before moving onto an intermediate program. I think you're probably like me, in that you will need intermediate progression long before you get close to 'intermediate strength'.

    If you're coming back from a layoff where you gained weight, odds are you haven't lost any muscle but you will have lost some of the neurological gains which means your strength probably will have taken a hit. This should allow you to stick to novice progression (increasing weight every week) for a while.

    If you track calories as accurately as possible, you should be able to maintain your bodyweight. Some weeks your weight will go up, others down, but it should average out over time. Could be a good idea to start out this way them look at lean bulking when you've got a good idea of your TDEE. Just remember that the more fat you gain, the longer you will need to spend cutting (and not building muscle) in the future.
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    We don't want people to keep program hopping - but OTOH if something isn't working having given it a good try, move on. You need BOTH enough volume and enough calories/protein. So why not do the VBB on a calorie surplus?
    What is OTOH ? Yeah I guess, I will think about it.
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    On The Other Hand.
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    I think Fierce 5 Novice would probably serve you well, although I wouldn't worry about hitting any arbitrary strength standards before moving onto an intermediate program. I think you're probably like me, in that you will need intermediate progression long before you get close to 'intermediate strength'.

    If you're coming back from a layoff where you gained weight, odds are you haven't lost any muscle but you will have lost some of the neurological gains which means your strength probably will have taken a hit. This should allow you to stick to novice progression (increasing weight every week) for a while.

    If you track calories as accurately as possible, you should be able to maintain your bodyweight. Some weeks your weight will go up, others down, but it should average out over time. Could be a good idea to start out this way them look at lean bulking when you've got a good idea of your TDEE. Just remember that the more fat you gain, the longer you will need to spend cutting (and not building muscle) in the future.
    So you think I should try an U/L?

    Yeah that's true but that will come back , Yeah your idea seems right.

    Yeah will have to track calories to make progress. Yeah that's how it's going to have to go. I think I have a great grasp of TDEE and the lot etc. Yeah the more fat I gain the harder it would be so will have to progress steadily. It's amazing how some of these natural progresses you see on you tube in a year change so much.
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    Originally Posted by fattofame3 View Post
    So you think I should try an U/L?

    Yeah that's true but that will come back , Yeah your idea seems right.

    Yeah will have to track calories to make progress. Yeah that's how it's going to have to go. I think I have a great grasp of TDEE and the lot etc. Yeah the more fat I gain the harder it would be so will have to progress steadily. It's amazing how some of these natural progresses you see on you tube in a year change so much.
    It's really up to you - if you want to try a U/L program, then I strongly recommend this one:

    https://rippedbody.com/novice-bodybuilding-program/

    It has a bit less volume than F5 Intermediate which is probably more suitable for you. When you stall on a lift or switch to cutting, you can switch to intermediate progression, which is outlined in this article:

    https://rippedbody.com/progression/

    I did it for almost 6 months and really enjoyed it - I probably could have stuck with it for years.
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    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    It's really up to you - if you want to try a U/L program, then I strongly recommend this one:

    https://rippedbody.com/novice-bodybuilding-program/

    It has a bit less volume than F5 Intermediate which is probably more suitable for you. When you stall on a lift or switch to cutting, you can switch to intermediate progression, which is outlined in this article:

    https://rippedbody.com/progression/

    I did it for almost 6 months and really enjoyed it - I probably could have stuck with it for years.
    Just read rippedbody and it seem interesting enough to give it a go. My question to you is did you add abs/traps? I read the reason why they did not add abs and traps but just curious if you did. Did you do cutting with this program? Why did you only do this for 6 months and not more? What program did you shift to after doing this for 6 months ? Cheers
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    Originally Posted by fattofame3 View Post
    Just read rippedbody and it seem interesting enough to give it a go. My question to you is did you add abs/traps? I read the reason why they did not add abs and traps but just curious if you did. Did you do cutting with this program? Why did you only do this for 6 months and not more? What program did you shift to after doing this for 6 months ? Cheers
    1. No, I did not add abs or trap work. My profile pic was taken after I'd been doing the routine for about 5 months. Not quite lean enough for defined abs, but my traps were definitely getting enough volume without direct training.

    2. Yep, I switched to the intermediate progression for all lifts while cutting, which allowed me to progress and continue getting stronger.

    3. I could have happily done the Ripped Body program for years I reckon. The only reason I changed is because I wanted to treat myself to a new program for the New Year. I've been doing Outlift which is by the guys from Bony to Beastly. Big fan of their articles, so I splashed out $50 and bought the program when it launched (price has since gone up to $70). I honestly can't say it's any better than the Ripped Body program, but I'm enjoying it a little more and the spreadsheet and autoregulation make it simple and fun to follow..
    Age: 36
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    Personal best lifts
    Bench - 9 x 57.5kg (127lb), 16 x 50kg (110lb)
    Bent-over row - 8 x 62.5kg (138lb)
    Front squat - 5 x 60kg (132lb), 8 x 57.5kg (127lb)
    Back squat - 5 x 67.5kg (149lb)
    RDL - 9 x 85kg (187lb), 11 x 82.5kg (182lb)
    Deadlift - 6 x 92.5kg (204lb), 8 x 90kg (198lb)
    Overhead Press - 6 x 40kg (88lb)
    Chin Ups - 7 x bodyweight + 7.5kg (16.5lb), 12 x bodyweight
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  18. #18
    Registered User fattofame3's Avatar
    Join Date: Apr 2019
    Age: 50
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    fattofame3 is offline
    Originally Posted by RapidFail View Post
    1. No, I did not add abs or trap work. My profile pic was taken after I'd been doing the routine for about 5 months. Not quite lean enough for defined abs, but my traps were definitely getting enough volume without direct training.

    2. Yep, I switched to the intermediate progression for all lifts while cutting, which allowed me to progress and continue getting stronger.

    3. I could have happily done the Ripped Body program for years I reckon. The only reason I changed is because I wanted to treat myself to a new program for the New Year. I've been doing Outlift which is by the guys from Bony to Beastly. Big fan of their articles, so I splashed out $50 and bought the program when it launched (price has since gone up to $70). I honestly can't say it's any better than the Ripped Body program, but I'm enjoying it a little more and the spreadsheet and autoregulation make it simple and fun to follow..
    I see, all valid points. May I suggest you look at the app called Strong to track your workouts ive been using it and its really good and Happy Scale to track your weight. You may or may not have heard of these but I thought I would just put it out there. Not affiliated with any of these apps. Just trying to pay it forward
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  19. #19
    Registered User RapidFail's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2018
    Age: 50
    Posts: 662
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    RapidFail is offline
    Originally Posted by fattofame3 View Post
    I see, all valid points. May I suggest you look at the app called Strong to track your workouts ive been using it and its really good and Happy Scale to track your weight. You may or may not have heard of these but I thought I would just put it out there. Not affiliated with any of these apps. Just trying to pay it forward
    Cheers, will have s look.
    Age: 36
    Height: 185cm (6'1")
    Weight: 77.7kg (171lb)

    Personal best lifts
    Bench - 9 x 57.5kg (127lb), 16 x 50kg (110lb)
    Bent-over row - 8 x 62.5kg (138lb)
    Front squat - 5 x 60kg (132lb), 8 x 57.5kg (127lb)
    Back squat - 5 x 67.5kg (149lb)
    RDL - 9 x 85kg (187lb), 11 x 82.5kg (182lb)
    Deadlift - 6 x 92.5kg (204lb), 8 x 90kg (198lb)
    Overhead Press - 6 x 40kg (88lb)
    Chin Ups - 7 x bodyweight + 7.5kg (16.5lb), 12 x bodyweight
    Reply With Quote

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