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  1. #31
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Lexus LFA is the ideal. v10 w/ 72deg angle. Meaning no counterbalancing needed. Fastest reving engine in the world, idle-9000 rpm in .6 sec. The firing order and the geometry is the reason it sounds so good.

    Carrera GT is similar but 68deg. Even firing order which is why they sound so similar.

    The Pre-LP Gallardo is a 90deg V10 but it is a split pin crank to give it an effective 72deg angle. It is why the Pre-LP engine sounds so much better than the LP V10's.


    If you like the high pitched formula one and fast-revving sound, nothing compares to those three engines.
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  2. #32
    Maximum Gainz 1slo5oh's Avatar
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    SRS Question...

    Has anybody here actually footed the bill of building a max effort N/A build?

    I have... a couple of times... and $hit gets real expensive REAL fast!

    I will always have a soft spot in my heart for a nasty N/A engine but forced induction is where its at for making big HP... I will use my current car for a prime example!!

    2013 Mustang GT..

    SBE (stock bottom end)
    Stock cam shafts
    Stock Gen 1 heads
    2.9L Whipple on E85

    975 rwhp on the party pulley
    850-870 on the street tune

    You want that kind of HP N/A you are going to be spending at a bare minimum Double the money of what a basic bitch whipple kit would cost you.. and you could make that HP even cheaper with a set of Wutang Whirley bois
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  3. #33
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    SRS Question...

    Has anybody here actually footed the bill of building a max effort N/A build?

    I have... a couple of times... and $hit gets real expensive REAL fast!

    I will always have a soft spot in my heart for a nasty N/A engine but forced induction is where its at for making big HP... I will use my current car for a prime example!!

    2013 Mustang GT..

    SBE (stock bottom end)
    Stock cam shafts
    Stock Gen 1 heads
    2.9L Whipple on E85

    975 rwhp on the party pulley
    850-870 on the street tune

    You want that kind of HP N/A you are going to be spending at a bare minimum Double the money of what a basic bitch whipple kit would cost you.. and you could make that HP even cheaper with a set of Wutang Whirley bois
    Your not going to build a N/A engine that puts out that much power as you get to the point where it is physically impossibe without ever-increasing the displacement.

    Eg, if you remember some of the first C8 dyno numbers that came out (that were wrong) were called into question since they were physically impossible with fluid dynamics.

    Forced induction works by artificially increasing displacement.

    It is really only manufactures that determine the path (which is now being dictated by governmental regulations)


    All being equal, I would rather drive enjoy a NA car for the all around experience. If total power is where it is at for you, or you are going to heavily modify the engine, forced induction is really the only way. The high performance n/a engines put out by porsche, lamborghini, ferrari benifit very little from 'tuning' since they are already so optimized. They are amazing in and of themselves and a true pleasure to experience.

    Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder for manuf to meet environmental regs (especially european regs) with n/a 10-12 cyl engines.

    A lot of debate on what lamborghini, and porsche are going to do. Since many of the regs are measured at partial load or idle, turbo and superchargers can much more easily meet regs.

    N/a engines cant meet efficiency. Eg, my car has a n/a 5.0 v10 putting out 520 hp. But I am LUCKY to get 10mpg. I had a tuned BMW 3l twin turbo @18psi boost putting out close to same power, and on the highway it was 27mpg all day long.

    I will give you one guess which one is more fun though! And which one sounds better!


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  4. #34
    Maximum Gainz 1slo5oh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Your not going to build a N/A engine that puts out that much power as you get to the point where it is physically impossibe without ever-increasing the displacement.

    Eg, if you remember some of the first C8 dyno numbers that came out (that were wrong) were called into question since they were physically impossible with fluid dynamics.

    Forced induction works by artificially increasing displacement.

    It is really only manufactures that determine the path (which is now being dictated by governmental regulations)


    All being equal, I would rather drive enjoy a NA car for the all around experience. If total power is where it is at for you, or you are going to heavily modify the engine, forced induction is really the only way. The high performance n/a engines put out by porsche, lamborghini, ferrari benifit very little from 'tuning' since they are already so optimized. They are amazing in and of themselves and a true pleasure to experience.

    Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder for manuf to meet environmental regs (especially european regs) with n/a 10-12 cyl engines.

    A lot of debate on what lamborghini, and porsche are going to do. Since many of the regs are measured at partial load or idle, turbo and superchargers can much more easily meet regs.

    N/a engines cant meet efficiency. Eg, my car has a n/a 5.0 v10 putting out 520 hp. But I am LUCKY to get 10mpg. I had a tuned BMW 3l twin turbo @18psi boost putting out close to same power, and on the highway it was 27mpg all day long.

    I will give you one guess which one is more fun though! And which one sounds better!


    I never said this was a stock N/A application... and you can most certainly make 1k+ HP N/A but as I stated... its going to get expensive.

    Also well aware of how forced induction works bruh... lol
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  5. #35
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    I never said this was a stock N/A application... and you can most certainly make 1k+ HP N/A but as I stated... its going to get expensive.

    Also well aware of how forced induction works bruh... lol

    I'd love to see some examples of a street engine making 1000hp naturally asprated. Of course nitrous does not count since that is not really 'naturally aspirated' since it creates a denser charge but in a different method. Also speaking normal fuel. Not 'race gas' or nitro...etc.

    Maybe you are talking rotary engines? Mazda was able to achieve 2.7hp/cu in out of a rotary. Which (if scaling were possible) would be a 370 cu in rotary. But we all know rotarys and 'displacement' is a totally different animial.

    Porsche has done some amazing work with GT3 cars at about 2.2hp/cu in.

    Maybe I am a moron, but aside from like totally one off hand built engines, or allison aircraft engine conversions, I dont know that I have ever seen a 1000hp naturally aspirated engine. Of course not discounting something like the Aston Martin Valkyrie w/ a 6.5 Cosworth N/A/ V12 which might represent the limit of what is possible pushing 1000hp


    What am I missing.....school me by all means.
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  6. #36
    Maximum Gainz 1slo5oh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I'd love to see some examples of a street engine making 1000hp naturally asprated. Of course nitrous does not count since that is not really 'naturally aspirated' since it creates a denser charge but in a different method. Also speaking normal fuel. Not 'race gas' or nitro...etc.

    Maybe you are talking rotary engines? Mazda was able to achieve 2.7hp/cu in out of a rotary. Which (if scaling were possible) would be a 370 cu in rotary. But we all know rotarys and 'displacement' is a totally different animial.

    Porsche has done some amazing work with GT3 cars at about 2.2hp/cu in.

    Maybe I am a moron, but aside from like totally one off hand built engines, or allison aircraft engine conversions, I dont know that I have ever seen a 1000hp naturally aspirated engine. Of course not discounting something like the Aston Martin Valkyrie w/ a 6.5 Cosworth N/A/ V12 which might represent the limit of what is possible pushing 1000hp


    What am I missing.....school me by all means.
    Still technically a small block LS based



    Big Block Chevy... And Finnegan does a great job usually breaking the details down



    I could keep posting videos but if you go to YouTube and simply type in 1000HP N/A you can literally watch videos for days. If you want build sheets you can start digging into the rabbit hole that is Proline engines
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  7. #37
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    I could keep posting videos but if you go to YouTube and simply type in 1000HP N/A you can literally watch videos for days. If you want build sheets you can start digging into the rabbit hole that is Proline engines
    Dude....that is running 110 octane race gas and not exactly something one could drive on the street.


    It we are just trying to be silly, heck you could throw a PT6b in and have 1900hp. (as long as you can find jet/a to fill up with at your local station). That is about as realistic as the example you posted.

    Again, I dont think I have ever seen a 'streat-able' 1000 hp naturally aspirated engine that I know of. But PLENTY of TT and SC engines make that all day long.
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  8. #38
    Maximum Gainz 1slo5oh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....that is running 110 octane race gas and not exactly something one could drive on the street.


    It we are just trying to be silly, heck you could throw a PT6b in and have 1900hp. (as long as you can find jet/a to fill up with at your local station). That is about as realistic as the example you posted.

    Again, I dont think I have ever seen a 'streat-able' 1000 hp naturally aspirated engine that I know of. But PLENTY of TT and SC engines make that all day long.
    I dont think I ever mentioned anyting about being driven on the street but if you really want to argue E85 will support a lot of HP. Keep thinking whatever you want to think.. Facts are facts... plenty of examples of N/A engines making big HP just like you asked for.
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  9. #39
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    I dont think I ever mentioned anyting about being driven on the street but if you really want to argue E85 will support a lot of HP. Keep thinking whatever you want to think.. Facts are facts... plenty of examples of N/A engines making big HP just like you asked for.
    Ok...you win If you are happy now, well then I should have said, there is ever a BETTER naturally aspriated engine than ALL of them!

    Just strap a soild fuel rocket booster (single one being the equivalent of 22 million HP.).


    Hard to not feel like you are just trying to argue. I think it goes without saying that in this thread, we were discussing vehicles which go over the road legally and can driven (more than a 1/4 mile). Non-nuclear powered also


    But yes, for pure power, there is simply no replacing boost. But given the choice in what is fun to drive, a N/A car hands down is what drivers really appreciate. Hence the success and cult that is the GT3 or the reason that anytime a ferrari drives by people lower their windows to listen to it. People are not doing that for guys running straight piped charges and mustangs that sound like a bag of rocks being rolled down the road in a metal garbage can.

    There is just nothing like a n/a 10 or 12 cylinder. Now of course these cars come at a preimum. You can go buy a mustang slap a supercharger on it and get gobs of power. But despite the relative ease of doing this, somehow Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari are still selling cars.

    No doubt the value and performance that you can get with forced induction. The popularity of LS swaps take that to an entirely different level.
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  10. #40
    Maximum Gainz 1slo5oh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Ok...you win If you are happy now, well then I should have said, there is ever a BETTER naturally aspriated engine than ALL of them!




    But yes, for pure power, there is simply no replacing boost. But given the choice in what is fun to drive, a N/A car hands down is what drivers really appreciate. Hence the success and cult that is the GT3 or the reason that anytime a ferrari drives by people lower their windows to listen to it. People are not doing that for guys running straight piped charges and mustangs that sound like a bag of rocks being rolled down the road in a metal garbage can..

    Wasn't aware I was trying to "win" anything.... you asked for examples... I gave them to you... you then added more stipulations.. it is what it is.


    And Mustangs running straight piped charges? What the fk are you even talking about? Now I know you are narrow minded because the 15+ GT350 sounds fkn amazing from the factory and even better with a set of Longtubes. But ok... keep your Euro BS … Rotorys… 6545gTB xyz with a 19975TB thruster application
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  11. #41
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    Wasn't aware I was trying to "win" anything.... you asked for examples... I gave them to you... you then added more stipulations.. it is what it is.


    And Mustangs running straight piped charges? What the fk are you even talking about? Now I know you are narrow minded because the 15+ GT350 sounds fkn amazing from the factory and even better with a set of Longtubes. But ok... keep your Euro BS … Rotorys… 6545gTB xyz with a 19975TB thruster application
    Dude dont be so touchy. I was mocking all the stereotypical charger guys (which I typo'd) and mustang guys who have these obnoxiously loud exhausts on their cars. (which sound like sh!t in my opinion.

    Now the flat plane mustangs are another topic all together. Below are a few of my buddys cars. While I am not a big "ford" guy, I can appreciate them for sure. Not really 'my thing' but a nice car.


    While I also appreciate the loppy idle of cammed up big block that can barely idle, nothing 'narrow minded' about preferring a high-revving v10/v12 though. I would think most people would say they sound the best. You dont see people rolling down their windows to listen to a passing mustang No hate...just the truth. They are different and that is OK.




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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....that is running 110 octane race gas and not exactly something one could drive on the street.


    It we are just trying to be silly, heck you could throw a PT6b in and have 1900hp. (as long as you can find jet/a to fill up with at your local station). That is about as realistic as the example you posted.

    Again, I dont think I have ever seen a 'streat-able' 1000 hp naturally aspirated engine that I know of. But PLENTY of TT and SC engines make that all day long.
    Not to mention that car he used for an example is of course, increased for displacement lol.

    So you were right. It's basically a 7.4 liter now.

    But honestly it's dumb to try to aim for a high hp all motor. I guess the only reason to do it, is to say you have xxx amount of HP in an NA engine.

    Otherwise FI is the way to go.
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    Originally Posted by 1slo5oh View Post
    I dont think I ever mentioned anyting about being driven on the street but if you really want to argue E85 will support a lot of HP. Keep thinking whatever you want to think.. Facts are facts... plenty of examples of N/A engines making big HP just like you asked for.
    chit all you really need is a little bit of water injection to turn 93 octane to 113, nothing fancy needed
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    Originally Posted by 1QWIK7 View Post
    Not to mention that car he used for an example is of course, increased for displacement lol.

    So you were right. It's basically a 7.4 liter now.

    But honestly it's dumb to try to aim for a high hp all motor. I guess the only reason to do it, is to say you have xxx amount of HP in an NA engine.

    Otherwise FI is the way to go.


    Yep, which makes what Porsche has done with the GT3 pretty impressive by comparison as well as Ferrari 812. Huracan EVO is right in there at 630hp from a 5.2l.

    All incredible achievements designed from the ground up. Of course you can make the same 630hp out of a ls1 with small amounts of boost for significantly less entrance fee

    That is not the point of this thread though. I am in my late 40's but the sound of a Lamborghini or Ferrari has always held a special place for me. It is iconic in many ways. They are also different cars to drive. The torque curves are so much flatter on turbo and s/c cars, whereas, a NA the power curve really builds. The feeling is very different.


    Originally Posted by gluon View Post
    chit all you really need is a little bit of water injection to turn 93 octane to 113, nothing fancy needed

    Water injections wont quite do that much . But I did have a tuned n54 motor (3L BMW motor) with FBO (full bolt on, meaning just about any mod you could do on it without cracking open the motor). The N54 is an AWESOME tuning motor and only second to the Toyota JZ.

    Anyway, I could monitor a bunch of paramaters in real time and tune the car on the go. Running a water/meth (50/50) mix I was able to run a tune that was for 103 race gas and not have any timing pulls. You can also run various blends of Ethanol in the cars. Most cars need upgraded fueling since there is so much less overall energy in methanol that the fueling requirements go up significantly in volume as HP levels go up. The stock fueling systems usually cant handle running full E85 tunes without upgrades...etc.


    All in all, lots of cool things. The title of this thread, the dying breed of the n/a engine is a very real one though. If you have never had a chance to drive one, take the opportunity if it comes your way. They are a lot of fun. Much in the same way that a gated manual is not as fast as a modern dual clutch, but which is more engaging and more fun to drive. Given the choice, most driving enthusists would choose a n/a manual car. While it wont be the fastest, it will be the most fun for many.
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    Porsche's 4.0l Flat 6 are pretty awesome in their GT cars.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....that is running 110 octane race gas and not exactly something one could drive on the street.
    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Maybe I am a moron, but aside from like totally one off hand built engines, or allison aircraft engine conversions, I dont know that I have ever seen a 1000hp naturally aspirated engine. Of course not discounting something like the Aston Martin Valkyrie w/ a 6.5 Cosworth N/A/ V12 which might represent the limit of what is possible pushing 1000hp
    Originally Posted by 1QWIK7 View Post
    Not to mention that car he used for an example is of course, increased for displacement lol.

    So you were right. It's basically a 7.4 liter now.

    But honestly it's dumb to try to aim for a high hp all motor. I guess the only reason to do it, is to say you have xxx amount of HP in an NA engine.

    Otherwise FI is the way to go.
    It doesn't matter if the engine has been stroked out for more displacement.

    The goal post were moved when it went from never seeing a 1000HP N/A engine, to now also having to be driven on the street and run off low octane fuel.

    Ford, Chevy, and Dodge have N/A engines that make close to 500HP stock. I would consider anything over 500hp as high horsepower.

    500+ HP in a steel body street car can go 10 seconds, maybe crack into the high 9 second 1/4 mile. It's more than enough horsepower to go fast.

    And there's nothing dumb about high horsepower all motor engines.

    Superchargers don't always clear factory hoods and custom turbo manifolds and big turbos don't always fit inside the engine bay.

    Sometimes if you want high horsepower and a stock factory appearance you have no choice but to go N/A.

    Almost 900HP N/A on pump gas driving on the street, looks stock.



    And it's not always about horsepower. The weight of the chassis is more important.

    500+ HP built N/A engine in a SLC Superlite Coupe that weighs around 2,300 lbs is the equivalent of 1000+ HP regardless if its forced induction or N/A in a ~3800lb car.

    The lighter chassis will also handle better and will be faster in turns and can slow down in shorter distances.

    Last edited by 10w30; 07-02-2020 at 12:01 PM.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post

    All in all, lots of cool things. The title of this thread, the dying breed of the n/a engine is a very real one though. If you have never had a chance to drive one, take the opportunity if it comes your way. They are a lot of fun. Much in the same way that a gated manual is not as fast as a modern dual clutch, but which is more engaging and more fun to drive. Given the choice, most driving enthusists would choose a n/a manual car. While it wont be the fastest, it will be the most fun for many.
    I'm building up my 2002 Trans Am right now. Doing a N/A build on the sbe 346 11.5:1 scr and going with Advanced Induction 226cc heads and a 23x/23x cam, FAST intake, 1 7/8 long tubes, and some other mods that should put me at 470+/420+torque with a t56 on the stock 10-bolt. It should be fun to drive for a while considering I've never driven anything faster than a stalled Charger RT which was a low 13 second car. I know the want for more power will come eventually and I will go FI, but it should be fun to put around in for the time being.
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    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 10w30 View Post
    It doesn't matter if the engine has been stroked out for more displacement.
    Correct, never said it did. Was just saying I have never seen a 1000hp street car NA.


    The goal post were moved when it went from never seeing a 1000HP N/A engine, to now also having to be driven on the street and run off low octane fuel.
    I was thinking the general spirit of 'car' theads is something you can actually drive. If that is off the table....well that is another beast all together.


    Ford, Chevy, and Dodge have N/A engines that make close to 500HP stock. I would consider anything over 500hp as high horsepower.

    500+ HP in a steel body street car can go 10 seconds, maybe crack into the high 9 second 1/4 mile. It's more than enough horsepower to go fast.

    And there's nothing dumb about high horsepower all motor engines.
    Agree on all points. Not just limited to exotics.



    And it's not always about horsepower. The weight of the chassis is more important.

    500+ HP built N/A engine in a SLC Superlite Coupe that weighs around 2,300 lbs is the equivalent of 1000+ HP regardless if its forced induction or N/A in a ~3800lb car.
    Correct. Think lotus. I almost built a SLC. I met with Fran in detroit in 2010. Flew up there to check out his operation. In the past I have had all kinds of projects and about 7 years prior to that, I actually built my own turbine helicopter and then 2 years prior to that totally refubished a Hughes 500 helo I bought in Miami. I decided I was done with big projects for a while and never pulled the trigger on the SLC.

    Still have thought about it, but been there, done that. I recently got back into cars and decided to just buy a nice one and enjoy it. Not the fastest car by any stretch, but I went from my R8 to a gallardo spyder. recently. Just a stupid car, but stupid fun in many ways and enjoying it very much.
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    Registered User 10w30's Avatar
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    I agree. European and foreign exotic naturally aspirated v10 and v12 engines howl.

    When they race or show at Goodwood you can really hear how nice they sound since they run solo on the track.



    A little bit of everything mixed in at Goodwood.

    Last edited by 10w30; 07-02-2020 at 01:03 PM.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Yep, which makes what Porsche has done with the GT3 pretty impressive by comparison as well as Ferrari 812. Huracan EVO is right in there at 630hp from a 5.2l.

    All incredible achievements designed from the ground up. Of course you can make the same 630hp out of a ls1 with small amounts of boost for significantly less entrance fee

    That is not the point of this thread though. I am in my late 40's but the sound of a Lamborghini or Ferrari has always held a special place for me. It is iconic in many ways. They are also different cars to drive. The torque curves are so much flatter on turbo and s/c cars, whereas, a NA the power curve really builds. The feeling is very different.
    Yeah i hear you man. That's why i'm so excited on what the new z06 will bring. According to the leaked engine sheet it says the z06 will get an NA 5.5L flat plane. And if the spy video is of the new z06, it sounds just like a ferrari lol. So i can't wait for that.

    I got spoiled when i got into V8's. Torque everywhere. Then i got super spoiled when i experienced boosted V8's. It's the best of all worlds. Power/torque when you want it, docile when you need it to be.

    I will always choose boost over NA but if there's an exception, like the new z06 sounding like a ferrari, then i guess i can get over not having that traditional pushrod GM small block sound.

    I'm sure it'll take me about an hour or maybe 10 minutes getting used to that ferrari z06 sound haha.
    Schooling everyone that has to do with automotive one brah at a time. It's tiring but someone gotta do it lol


    I have a manual car but auto IS WAY BETTER THESE DAYS. ACCEPT THE FACTS BRAHS! LOL
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    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 10w30 View Post
    I agree. European and foreign exotic naturally aspirated v10 and v12 engines howl.

    When they race or show at Goodwood you can really hear how nice they sound since they run solo on the track.
    Some cool stuff there. What is impressive to me about many of the exotics is just how much they get out of the engines. So much so, the 'tunes' generally do very little, even when tuners start fudging some of the things the manufs had to deal with in approval process. You are lucky to get 20 hp out of a N/A tune and that is with after market air intakes, tune and exhaust. All told 4000$ or more trying to get the last 20 hp out of a car.


    Porsche and their GT cars are amazing as well. But I have never been a Porsche guy enough to truly understand all the variants. I do however fully understand the allure of the GT3. It is one of my sons favorite cars. (Beside a 720s)

    I am more an Advantador SVJ guy. While true not really any faster than a Huracan EVO since it is bigger and heavier car coupled with the V12....there is just something about the lines of the car.

    Here is a svj w/ a huracan in back of it from a get together I went to a couple of weeks ago. If you look way in the back behind the silver NSX, that is my car parked The tiny yellow blob

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    Registered User 10w30's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Some cool stuff there. What is impressive to me about many of the exotics is just how much they get out of the engines. So much so, the 'tunes' generally do very little, even when tuners start fudging some of the things the manufs had to deal with in approval process. You are lucky to get 20 hp out of a N/A tune and that is with after market air intakes, tune and exhaust. All told 4000$ or more trying to get the last 20 hp out of a car.


    Porsche and their GT cars are amazing as well. But I have never been a Porsche guy enough to truly understand all the variants. I do however fully understand the allure of the GT3. It is one of my sons favorite cars. (Beside a 720s)

    I am more an Advantador SVJ guy. While true not really any faster than a Huracan EVO since it is bigger and heavier car coupled with the V12....there is just something about the lines of the car.

    Here is a svj w/ a huracan in back of it from a get together I went to a couple of weeks ago. If you look way in the back behind the silver NSX, that is my car parked The tiny yellow blob


    I think it's reached the point in the last 10 years all auto manufactures have been pushed by the EPA fuel regulations and emission standards to make engines as efficient as possible.

    A side effect from it is close to the maximum horsepower possible from the factory without having to upgrade heads, cams, intake, or more forced induction.
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    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 10w30 View Post
    A side effect from it is close to the maximum horsepower possible from the factory without having to upgrade heads, cams, intake, or more forced induction.
    Efficiency and maximum power are two different ends of the spectrum. Most NA performance engines are TERRIBLY inefficient. They also consume oil as part of thier design. Eg, 10mpg is pretty typical out of a 5.0L 520hp engine.

    Most performance manuf dont care if they meet mileage and efficiency requirements. They know their customers dont really care if they have to pay a $3000 gas guzzler tax on a 250k+ car.

    The problem becomes in how the tests are constructed. I read an article about porsche and what they were having to do to try to meet emission regs.

    So I dont think it is emissions has led to more performance by any stretch.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Efficiency and maximum power are two different ends of the spectrum. Most NA performance engines are TERRIBLY inefficient. They also consume oil as part of thier design. Eg, 10mpg is pretty typical out of a 5.0L 520hp engine.

    Most performance manuf dont care if they meet mileage and efficiency requirements. They know their customers dont really care if they have to pay a $3000 gas guzzler tax on a 250k+ car.

    The problem becomes in how the tests are constructed. I read an article about porsche and what they were having to do to try to meet emission regs.

    So I dont think it is emissions has led to more performance by any stretch.

    About 25 years ago a Ford 5.0 OHV engine was rated at 225HP. Even going back to the 1960's similar size engines made the same or less amount of HP.

    In 2013 a Ford 5.0 DOHC engine is rated at 420HP using the same amount of 5 liters of displacement and fuel economy. The new modern efficient engines make almost 200 more horsepower.

    Today 2018+ with new emission standards Ford bumped up the compression on the 5.0 and added a combination of direct and port fuel injection with a new intake manifold making 460Hp.

    The higher compression will give you a cleaner and complete burn of fuel and the port/direct injection helps at low/high rpm power while using the least amount of fuel and lowest emissions output.

    Ford Coyote 5.0's are radical from the factory. Once you flash tune and have full control of the cam/ignition/fuel timing from idle to red line stock + bolt on N/A engines make ~500 wheel HP.


    Last edited by 10w30; 07-03-2020 at 01:49 PM.
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    Originally Posted by 10w30 View Post

    The higher compression will give you a cleaner and complete burn of fuel and the port/direct injection helps at low/high rpm power while using the least amount of fuel and lowest emissions output.
    Not trying to argue, but I think your thinking is off. The reasons for the great increase in power are several.

    -fluid dynamic modeling
    -Greater computer control ignition and fuel
    -composite technology (intakes that dont heat soak...etc)


    A great example shooting down your efficiency argument is a 1992 5.0 Mustange gt got 22 city/30 highway. A 2020 GT350 gets 14 city/21 highway


    But technology in general has pushed the envelope in both directions. Unfortunately, efficiency and absolute power are generally in opposition to one another.


    That is unless you consider turbo and s/c cars. You CAN get efficiency and lower emissions and also get power.....hence the death of the N/A engine.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    A great example shooting down your efficiency argument is a 1992 5.0 Mustange gt got 22 city/30 highway. A 2020 GT350 gets 14 city/21 highway
    lol nice try. GT350.

    Tell me what the fuel economy is on a 1992 5.0 Mustang GT and what the fuel economy is on a 2020 mustang GT.

    Not a GT350
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    The truth and reality is most N/A cars suck ass compared to the turbo beasts of today.
    I knew this the moment I drove my first Gtr in 2012 or 13. It was still the 485hp version but felt better than a 530hp 430 Scuderia at the time, which is like 500kg lighter. No comparison.

    Over the years the turbo tech has come so far that if you put a regular person in a 720s, that person is gonna be in tears or dead within 30 minutes of driving it. The car is that crazy for being 100% stock.

    I'd say the best overall car so far is the 720s and the best N/A car is the current front engine big V12 Ferrari.
    In that case the 812 or the upcoming race version of it.

    Going back in time it's really hard to find cars that excite you when you've been in fast tuned turbo cars.

    Lfa ? Horrible transmission. CGT ? Damn that's a legendary vehicle for sure but never been in one.
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  28. #58
    RN and vette crew 1QWIK7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ladiessman217 View Post
    The truth and reality is most N/A cars suck ass compared to the turbo beasts of today.
    I knew this the moment I drove my first Gtr in 2012 or 13. It was still the 485hp version but felt better than a 530hp 430 Scuderia at the time, which is like 500kg lighter. No comparison.

    Over the years the turbo tech has come so far that if you put a regular person in a 720s, that person is gonna be in tears or dead within 30 minutes of driving it. The car is that crazy for being 100% stock.

    I'd say the best overall car so far is the 720s and the best N/A car is the current front engine big V12 Ferrari.
    In that case the 812 or the upcoming race version of it.

    Going back in time it's really hard to find cars that excite you when you've been in fast tuned turbo cars.

    Lfa ? Horrible transmission. CGT ? Damn that's a legendary vehicle for sure but never been in one.
    Fax.

    With new turbo technology, most cars that once had an NA V8 downsized to turbo/twin turbo 6. It's more efficient now.

    I do commend some manufacturers that are keeping the V8 alive but there is no doubt in the future smaller engines with turbos are going take over, before EV actually takes over.

    I always thought GTR's were underrated from factory. It's a beast.

    It's actually the only japanese car i like and would like to own one day. Only thing that's stopping me right now is the 6cyl. Which is an amazing engine, i just don't like the way they sound much. V8's sound so much better.

    The appeal to NA engines, whether it's a race engine or a street engine, is understandable. However if one is trying to make power, at least easily, affordably and more efficiently, you need to add boost.
    Schooling everyone that has to do with automotive one brah at a time. It's tiring but someone gotta do it lol


    I have a manual car but auto IS WAY BETTER THESE DAYS. ACCEPT THE FACTS BRAHS! LOL
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    Registered User HotCheetos's Avatar
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    I enjoy the fuel economy, reliability (PD supercharger) and power of a FI V8 too much to want to care about staying NA. I appreciate the hell out of NA builds. Props to anyone that builds a strong NA engine
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    ⊗♠⊗♠⊗♠⊗♠ ♠⊗♠ rectifryer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude dont be so touchy. I was mocking all the stereotypical charger guys (which I typo'd) and mustang guys who have these obnoxiously loud exhausts on their cars. (which sound like sh!t in my opinion.

    Now the flat plane mustangs are another topic all together. Below are a few of my buddys cars. While I am not a big "ford" guy, I can appreciate them for sure. Not really 'my thing' but a nice car.


    While I also appreciate the loppy idle of cammed up big block that can barely idle, nothing 'narrow minded' about preferring a high-revving v10/v12 though. I would think most people would say they sound the best. You dont see people rolling down their windows to listen to a passing mustang No hate...just the truth. They are different and that is OK.




    If you can appreciate them then just know ford racing puts the crossplane cranks BACK in for the actual gt3 mustangs hue hue hue.

    I love mustangs, but the flatplane cranks have too many issues.

    And there are plenty of 700hp big block crate motors out there that will do 1kwhp na. Probably not gonna take any fast turns with those cars but it's easily done, just somewhat expensive.

    In your point of the mustang idle, the cams are more aggressive than race cams from the factory now, it's just that everything has a variable profile in the coyote. You can engage the most aggressive cam profile from a tuner and the car will barely idle. I'd assume all pony cars have similar features.
    Last edited by rectifryer; 07-04-2020 at 04:59 AM.
    Have a great Friday you motherfukkeeeeeer!
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