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  1. #1
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    muscle-building: what's worse ALCOHOL or JUNK FOOD?

    in terms of anabolism and what is detrimental to muscle growth... I was wondering what's worse?

    drinking alcohol or eating junk food- I know both are obviously if you wanna make those gainz>>> bad but what is the greater of the two evils?

  2. #2
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    Alcohol is far worse
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    Alcohol is far worse
    ^^^^

    This only because there is no such thing as 'junk food' its all personal interpretation and individual needs so no effect exists.

    For alcohol just read this analysis:-

    https://mennohenselmans.com/the-effe...muscle-growth/

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    Registered User snailsrus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    ^^^^

    This only because there is no such thing as 'junk food' its all personal interpretation and individual needs so no effect exists.

    For alcohol just read this analysis:-

    https://mennohenselmans.com/the-effe...muscle-growth/
    ”Women, by virtue of not having testicles, seem to be somewhat exempt from alcohol’s gain-robbing effects. Their testosterone and estrogen levels actually increase, there seems to be no reduction in anabolic signaling and muscular recovery seems to be unaffected even after hefty post-workout drinking. There may still be an acute decrease in muscle protein synthesis after binge drinking though due to a negative effect of alcohol on protein translation, but moderate long-term usage seems to be gain-friendly.”
    This is not accurate from that article at all. Women’s health declines much faster than men’s with chronic alcohol use
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  5. #5
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    ”Women, by virtue of not having testicles, seem to be somewhat exempt from alcohol’s gain-robbing effects. Their testosterone and estrogen levels actually increase, there seems to be no reduction in anabolic signaling and muscular recovery seems to be unaffected even after hefty post-workout drinking. There may still be an acute decrease in muscle protein synthesis after binge drinking though due to a negative effect of alcohol on protein translation, but moderate long-term usage seems to be gain-friendly.”
    This is not accurate from that article at all. Women’s health declines much faster than men’s with chronic alcohol use
    Its talking about muscle growth not health two separate things altogether. You can easily be 'unhealthy' yet still build muscle. Second 'chronic' of anything is bad for you so that is not really relevant as it clearly states moderate in the article not chronic use.

    Alcohol can cause increase in testosterone in females according to science, therefore technically you could argue its helpful for growth (if you forget all the health side effects):-

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC4056249/#B93

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...05504999306036

    Moderate use of alcohol itself will not cause extreme muscle growth effects in either gender but any noticeable effect are more likely to happen on men then women due to males testosterone dropping due to consumption where women estrogen and testosterone actually increases.

    All the links for the research is in the article if you would like to read about the science behind Henselmans conclusion.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 05-05-2020 at 04:42 AM.

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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    in terms of anabolism and what is detrimental to muscle growth... I was wondering what's worse?

    drinking alcohol or eating junk food- I know both are obviously if you wanna make those gainz>>> bad but what is the greater of the two evils?
    In what world is "junk food" (whatever that means..) detrimental to muscle growth? Please elaborate.

    Alcohol provides nothing for muscle growth and impairs protein synthesis.
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    Registered User superyids85's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rhadam View Post
    In what world is "junk food" (whatever that means..) detrimental to muscle growth? Please elaborate.

    junk food meaning- chocolate, crisps (chips), sweets, fast food>>> kebabs, burgers, fries, pizza, Indian, Chinese, McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Wendys, KFC etc,,, etc,,, etc,,,

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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    junk food meaning- chocolate, crisps (chips), sweets, fast food>>> kebabs, burgers, fries, pizza, Indian, Chinese, McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Wendys, KFC etc,,, etc,,, etc,,,
    Anyone else hungry?

    How would any of these be detrimental to building muscle? In excess they may cause unnecessary weight gain but that would depend on your entire diet not an isolated meal.
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    Originally Posted by Ghawk21 View Post
    Anyone else hungry?

    How would any of these be detrimental to building muscle? In excess they may cause unnecessary weight gain but that would depend on your entire diet not an isolated meal.
    This.

    If the rest of your diet was nutritious enough to cover micro and macro sufficiency, and you needed to work in some of the mentioned foods to put yourself into a surplus, these foods would technically be vital in your quest to build muscle.

    OP - you need to brush up on the basics of nutrition, forget your old misconceptions. You seem to be confusing what is optimal for muscle building vs. what is optimal for health.

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    "Junk food" (from time to time) great for breaking through lifting plateaus, weight gain plateaus, etc..
    Curing disease.

    Strong mind+Strong body = UNSTOPPABLE.

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    what exactly is the purpose of asking this?
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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    junk food meaning
    You didn't give a meaning. You just made a list that doesn't get you any closer to explaining yourself.
    I can tell time. Time cannot tell me.

    Formerly LactoseTolerant. I'm not very imaginative.

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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    junk food meaning- chocolate, crisps (chips), sweets, fast food>>> kebabs, burgers, fries, pizza, Indian, Chinese, McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Wendys, KFC etc,,, etc,,, etc,,,
    You listed foods you erroneously believe are "bad." And you didn't answer my question.
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    ”Women, by virtue of not having testicles, seem to be somewhat exempt from alcohol’s gain-robbing effects. Their testosterone and estrogen levels actually increase, there seems to be no reduction in anabolic signaling and muscular recovery seems to be unaffected even after hefty post-workout drinking. There may still be an acute decrease in muscle protein synthesis after binge drinking though due to a negative effect of alcohol on protein translation, but moderate long-term usage seems to be gain-friendly.”
    This is not accurate from that article at all. Women’s health declines much faster than men’s with chronic alcohol use
    Curious how this would affect trans men. No testicles, but aromatization of T into E is still a thing.

    Can we please stop demonizing "junk food" and instead look at the broader scope of one's dietary choices in terms of how /excess/ consumption of certain foods affects /overall/ health? IIFYM etc. My guess is that even abusing IIFYM would have no direct negative impact on body composition but might hamper progress due to feeling like **** all the time.

    Brb tho, getting 20g of casein from pizza.

  15. #15
    Protein bar nightcap? desslok's Avatar
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    Not eating enough junk food if you are under your tdee would by far be the worst.
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    Registered User snailsrus's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Its talking about muscle growth not health two separate things altogether. You can easily be 'unhealthy' yet still build muscle. Second 'chronic' of anything is bad for you so that is not really relevant as it clearly states moderate in the article not chronic use.

    Alcohol can cause increase in testosterone in females according to science, therefore technically you could argue its helpful for growth (if you forget all the health side effects):-

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC4056249/#B93

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...05504999306036

    Moderate use of alcohol itself will not cause extreme muscle growth effects in either gender but any noticeable effect are more likely to happen on men then women due to males testosterone dropping due to consumption where women estrogen and testosterone actually increases.

    All the links for the research is in the article if you would like to read about the science behind Henselmans conclusion.
    you can have all the estrogen and test in the world but if your body isn’t healthy you can’t build amino acid chains for new cell growth, I’ve seen it in aa for almost a decade now and experienced it.

    https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa46.htm
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    Think about this:
    1. Muscle protein synthesis is the process that builds muscle.
    2. Alcohol suppresses muscle protein synthesis.
    3. Burgers, burritos, pizza and chicken nuggets increase muscle protein synthesis.

    About that Menno article: "moderate long-term usage seems to be gain-friendly for women".

    Sure, if you count breast cancer as gains.
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    you can have all the estrogen and test in the world but if your body isn’t healthy you can’t build amino acid chains for new cell growth, I’ve seen it in aa for almost a decade now and experienced it.

    https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa46.htm
    I am sorry you have experienced it in aa but I am afraid it still doesn't take away the science which can be clearly seen in the article. As for body being healthy that again is not at all relevant as I could argue that having a very low body fat and being on any form of restrictive diet is 'unhealthy'.

    Healthiness is relative and not even that important, many 'gym bros' have built lean tissue by eating very restrictive diets, protein shakes and excessive amounts of red meat and processed meat (which again is linked to cancer same as alcohol) whilst avoiding nearly all fibres, fruit and veg. Not to mention plenty do it by using magic stuff, Keto diets, Veganism, paleo etc etc which again none are technically healthy in given scenarios, maybe not as 'unhealthy' as alcohol consumption but this is a completely different topic to muscle growth as asked by the OP.

    I am not advising it as a tool I am merely stating the science. Doesn't mean when looked at as a complete comprehensive standpoint alcohol should be incorporated but in terms of the article and its claim on a muscle building standpoint it is scientifically backed.

    So yes you can build muscle growth by being 'unhealthy'.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    About that Menno article: "moderate long-term usage seems to be gain-friendly for women".

    Sure, if you count breast cancer as gains.
    Thanks for pointing out another health issue.

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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    I am sorry you have experienced it in aa but I am afraid it still doesn't take away the science which can be clearly seen in the article. As for body being healthy that again is not at all relevant as I could argue that having a very low body fat and being on any form of restrictive diet is 'unhealthy'.

    Healthiness is relative and not even that important, many 'gym bros' have built lean tissue by eating very restrictive diets, protein shakes and excessive amounts of red meat and processed meat (which again is linked to cancer same as alcohol) whilst avoiding nearly all fibres, fruit and veg. Not to mention plenty do it by using magic stuff, Keto diets, Veganism, paleo etc etc which again none are technically healthy in given scenarios, maybe not as 'unhealthy' as alcohol consumption but this is a completely different topic to muscle growth as asked by the OP.

    I am not advising it as a tool I am merely stating the science. Doesn't mean when looked at as a complete comprehensive standpoint alcohol should be incorporated but in terms of the article and its claim on a muscle building standpoint it is scientifically backed.

    So yes you can build muscle growth by being 'unhealthy'.



    Thanks for pointing out another health issue.
    If your blood is acidic from drinking alcohol, your cells can’t regenerate properly thus you can’t have proper muscle growth, you actually have muscle and tissue break down putting protein in your piss. Vegan and paleo or low calorie diets can’t even compare. I’ve done it all and seen the lab results in my blood tests, I’ve done uspa and npc and eating meat doesn’t give you throat/esophagus cancer please. Did you even look at the article I posted.
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    I am sorry you have experienced it in aa but I am afraid it still doesn't take away the science which can be clearly seen in the article. As for body being healthy that again is not at all relevant as I could argue that having a very low body fat and being on any form of restrictive diet is 'unhealthy'.

    Healthiness is relative and not even that important, many 'gym bros' have built lean tissue by eating very restrictive diets, protein shakes and excessive amounts of red meat and processed meat (which again is linked to cancer same as alcohol) whilst avoiding nearly all fibres, fruit and veg. Not to mention plenty do it by using magic stuff, Keto diets, Veganism, paleo etc etc which again none are technically healthy in given scenarios, maybe not as 'unhealthy' as alcohol consumption but this is a completely different topic to muscle growth as asked by the OP.

    I am not advising it as a tool I am merely stating the science. Doesn't mean when looked at as a complete comprehensive standpoint alcohol should be incorporated but in terms of the article and its claim on a muscle building standpoint it is scientifically backed.

    So yes you can build muscle growth by being 'unhealthy'.

    Thanks for pointing out another health issue.
    Bottom line, what would you recommend? Why go through the time arguing one minute point when it's clear alcohol is a much worse option. Read what you wrote to prove your point: "healthiness is relative and not even that important" and "(meat) is linked to cancer same as alcohol". Why even be in a community called "nutrition" if you're not promoting something healthy? Do you recommend to any single female on this earth to drink alcohol to help their gains?

    Look up the definition of nutrition - the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth.
    dougy fresh

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    Originally Posted by snailsrus View Post
    If your blood is acidic from drinking alcohol, your cells can’t regenerate properly thus you can’t have proper muscle growth, you actually have muscle and tissue break down putting protein in your piss. Vegan and paleo or low calorie diets can’t even compare. I’ve done it all and seen the lab results in my blood tests, I’ve done uspa and npc and eating meat doesn’t give you throat/esophagus cancer please. Did you even look at the article I posted.
    Yes thank you and I have worked in blood and organ transplant for the NHS for over 10 years so I don't really need an explanation of how alcohol affects your health, I see day in day out with the patients requiring transfusions and new livers.

    The point is a health factor doesn't effect your ability to build muscle in moderation. And my point is that the article posted by a renowned body composition researcher (as in Henselmans) clearly shows through scientific evidence that moderate alcohol has less effected on women's ability to build lean mass then men and furthermore a small to moderate amount of alcohol is unlikely to make any effect on lean tissue gain in either gender but more likely to in men due to testosterone levels dropping, something women do not have to deal with.

    Will this cause health issue possible and likely as studies have shown that moderate alcohol over prolonged time will effect overall well being and health. But the key question of muscle gain especially in women is not according to science at this time so your claim Henselmans conclusion is incorrect is not founded, as you have not supported it with nothing but your own opinion which I am afraid means nothing in the science community. Its a health risk not a muscle hypertrophy risk in moderation.

    Secondly you have jumped down the road of chronic alcoholism which the article doesn't even state, it claims moderate amounts seem to have no/ minimal effect on women's response to growth where more effect is present in men.

    So if you can post scientific studies to prove otherwise then I will still be agreeing with the conclusions that Henselmans has found within this analysis of alcohol and effects on women.

    Originally Posted by DougyF7 View Post
    Bottom line, what would you recommend? Why go through the time arguing one minute point when it's clear alcohol is a much worse option. Read what you wrote to prove your point: "healthiness is relative and not even that important" and "(meat) is linked to cancer same as alcohol". Why even be in a community called "nutrition" if you're not promoting something healthy? Do you recommend to any single female on this earth to drink alcohol to help their gains?

    Look up the definition of nutrition - the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth.
    If you care to read what I am arguing about I disputing a claim that the science backed by scientists is flawed and incorrect when she is not posted any supporting scientific evidence to dispute the claim.

    Ummm why aren't I promoting something healthy because the claim by Henselmans isn't stating its healthy he is stating the science. Its not my scientific works is by an expert in the field who has come to this conclusion and no he doesn't advise drinking alcohol, he actually makes no comment on that factors.

    If you re-read my previous comments you will know my view on drinking and muscle gains (and its a no just in case). But just because you don't like what the science has shown doesn't make it less true. I am afraid if I had to discuss things which were healthy for everything and everyone I would be being paid as a dietitian which I am not. I have no idea how we have gone from scientific claims of less effect of moderate alcohol use on muscle growth in women then men (which is backed by science) to me wanting to encourage alcoholism in women for muscle growth.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 05-06-2020 at 09:08 AM.

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    How much alcohol are we talking about?

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    Originally Posted by RakiaPower View Post
    How much alcohol are we talking about?
    Well according to the research within Menno Henselmans analysis somewhere around 5 glasses a week for long term in women can cause significant increase in estrogen.

    https://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/23/12/2943

    What that is in units around 10-20g of alcohol a day so basically 2.5 units (not sure if Americans use units) which equals around one glass of wine a day for 5 days out of a week.

    Which happens to be less then standard health advised amount for consumption:-

    https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/alcohol...king-too-much/

    Equals 12.5 units where medical advice states 14 units or more per week has negative health effects.

    He does state a binge drinking session will cause increase in estrogen and testosterone, but clearly states that from a muscle standpoint it may be good for muscle hypertrophy in women but not for health:-

    Alcohol is also good for estrogen levels. And in contrast to common belief, estrogen is actually nothing but beneficial for muscle growth, especially in women. Light drinking doesn’t have much effect, but 4-7 drinks can increase estrogen acutely by up to 66% [2, 3, 4, 5].

    Now, while these increases in sex hormone levels may be good for your gains, they are related to liver toxicity that causes a disruption in hormonal metabolism. So they’re not good effects in a healthy sense.
    So I have no idea how this got into claims of me and Henselmans research analysis supporting alcoholism.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 05-06-2020 at 10:51 AM.

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    Originally Posted by RakiaPower View Post
    How much alcohol are we talking about?
    20 pints a week

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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    20 pints a week
    Now that is excessive in any form.

    So yes it will be effecting any muscle gains and likely causing massive health implications.

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    so basically 'junk food' is okay to eat as long as i hit my MACROS and KCALS??

    but alcohol is the DEVIL!!!

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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Well according to the research within Menno Henselmans analysis somewhere around 5 glasses a week for long term in women can cause significant increase in estrogen.

    https://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/23/12/2943

    What that is in units around 10-20g of alcohol a day so basically 2.5 units (not sure if Americans use units) which equals around one glass of wine a day for 5 days out of a week.

    Which happens to be less then standard health advised amount for consumption:-

    https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/alcohol...king-too-much/

    Equals 12.5 units where medical advice states 14 units or more per week has negative health effects.

    He does state a binge drinking session will cause increase in estrogen and testosterone, but clearly states that from a muscle standpoint it may be good for muscle hypertrophy in women but not for health:-



    So I have no idea how this got into claims of me and Henselmans research analysis supporting alcoholism.
    You are talking about few drinks a week. That won't hurt anyone. That girl up there is talking about chronic alcoholism. Completely different thing.

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    Originally Posted by superyids85 View Post
    so basically 'junk food' is okay to eat as long as i hit my MACROS and KCALS??

    but alcohol is the DEVIL!!!
    You need to reasses your extreme categorisation of things.

    Most stuff is dose related, a little of a lot of things is fine, excess is generally not going to lead to positive consequences.

    Labelling stuff as good or bad. Or junk or healthy is not particularly helpful
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    the article posted by a renowned body composition researcher (as in Henselmans)
    I respect your posts in general but IMO you’re giving him too much credit. He’s a successful fitness coach, model and blogger. In the science world he doesn’t have much of a reputation. He’s not a renowned researcher. He is making good money with his coaching and website, which allowed him to fund a couple of studies. Who knows he’ll become a renowned researcher in the future, although I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve seen some of his articles contain really obvious errors. I haven’t read this particular article (can’t be bothered) but given his biases I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s making look alcohol consumption a bit too positive.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 05-06-2020 at 07:12 PM.

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    Alcohol for sure. My body composition bounces back way faster from binge eating than it does from binge drinking.

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