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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Working with fat in the diet

    I get how carbs function to keep energy levels stimulated, and I at least understand pretty directly what protein does as far as building blocks and mps. Fat though I'm at a loss as far as how it benefits you specifically. The other two macros are easily understood on a practical level as variations of fuel and/or composition. Fat on the other hand I've heard has hormone or health benefits. So I guess more of a gray area of optimality vs functioning deficiency?

    In the past I've been inclined to directly correlate nutritional fat with body fat. But since body fat comes from general calories, does that dissociate nutritional fat as having a special function towards body fat production?
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    No. Overall weekly/ monthly calories dictate fat loss or gain.
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, the only reason I'm asking that last part at the end is to affirm that the common term between nutritional fat and body fat is essentially coincidental.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    The only reason I'm asking at the end is to affirm that the common term between nutritional fat and body fat is essentially coincidental.
    Well, no, they're both lipids... which are organic compounds with similar properties whether it's on your body or in your food....

    The same goes for things like protein... your muscle tissue is just your 'body protein' in essence...

    It is true that dietary fat is more efficiently stored at body fat, BUT it is energy/calorie balance (negative vs positive) that dictates storage of any substrate for a given period of time.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    It is true that dietary fat is more efficiently stored at body fat, BUT it is energy/calorie balance (negative vs positive) that dictates storage of any substrate for a given period of time.
    Oh thank you. I will remember that in the future.

    So is that efficiency particularly beneficial or noteworthy for nutritional approaches?


    I can see how maybe it is for like a hibernating animal lol, and even humans as animals could want some blubber.
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Just to clarify, the only reason I'm asking that last part at the end is to affirm that the common term between nutritional fat and body fat is essentially coincidental.
    body fat is stored when there is a surplus of calories over time.
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Oh thank you. I will remember that in the future. So is that efficiency particularly beneficial or noteworthy?
    Well no, in fact you could argue that at high enough energy intake it's a 'bad' thing because less additional energy is burned in storage dietary fat compared to carbohydrates and especially protein.

    When you consume carbs, they have to be 'converted' via a process called de novo lipogensis prior to storage as fat.

    Protein has even more 'steps' before excess protein calories can be stored.

    Fat, on the other hand, requires very little 'processing' in the body before it can be stored.

    But again, it doesn't really matter much for almost anyone because it is the NET energy balance which determines the net result in terms of body fat gain or loss.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Well no, in fact you could argue that at high enough energy intake it's a 'bad' thing because less additional energy is burned in storage dietary fat compared to carbohydrates and especially protein.

    When you consume carbs, they have to be 'converted' via a process called de novo lipogensis prior to storage as fat.

    Protein has even more 'steps' before excess protein calories can be stored.

    Fat, on the other hand, requires very little 'processing' in the body before it can be stored.
    This articulates some complications of dietary fat pretty effectively. Thank you.
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    Train hard play harder Tommy W.'s Avatar
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    In a diet that isn’t radically out of whack with an extremely dominant macro it won’t matter. TEF is a factor but only when things are abnormally out of balance between protein in relation to fats\ carbs
    If you don't get what you want you didn't want it bad enough
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    I see. Also more info, the main reason I was asking about nutritional fat has more to do with its effect on my appetite, and not so much a worry about inadvertent adipose gain. Not necessarily trying to get that prognosed per se, but just to understand why it does that. If its primary role was to just make fat accumulation easier, then I could get that from an evolution standpoint.
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    Protein bar nightcap? desslok's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    Just to clarify, the only reason I'm asking that last part at the end is to affirm that the common term between nutritional fat and body fat is essentially coincidental.
    Well if you eat a bag of corn chips, do corn chips grow off of you? Sometimes you have to step back and just think about things logically
    Superbus est, qui loquitur in prouerbiis Latinis.
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  12. #12
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    I see. Also more info, the main reason I was asking about nutritional fat has more to do with its effect on my appetite, and not so much a worry about inadvertent adipose gain. Not necessarily trying to get that prognosed per se, but just to understand why it does that. If its primary role was to just make fat accumulation easier, then I could get that from an evolution standpoint.
    Fat plays a role in a huge number of biological processes, it’s an essential nutrient, not just for storage...

    In terms of satiety, there are many reasons why it can help:

    - it slows stomach emptying and digestion, which keeps food in your stomach longer

    - it stimulates certain taste receptors which are unique to fat-rich foods, this satisfying an inborn desire for taste pleasure of a certain category

    - it blunts blood sugar response, reducing the ‘peak and crash’ effects of higher carb loads which can cause people to feel hungrier


    Now this all depends on the individual as well as the fat source.

    It is far easier to over-consume and get little satiety from drinking canola oil compared to something plain Brazil nuts or avocado...

    Usually fat results in overconsumption when it is paired with starch, salt, and/or sugar... all of those additives will decrease the satiety effect of a whole-food (unprocessed) source of fat.

    In particular, it seems higher fat higher protein foods can be particularly satiating, even moreso when paired with fiberous veggies.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Another person trying to 'hack' the body composition process. Don't you think it's been tried a million times OP?

    If there was a clear advantage to a low fat diet, we'd all be doing it. And yet, people sucessfully lose weight on very high fat diets like a (genuine) keto diet.

    Fat is stored direct in the adipose tissue before it can be used for energy - true
    Carb and protein prevent the oxidation of fat because of the signalling caused by insulin - true

    What's the difference? Eat too much and you don't lose fat, that's all you need to know.
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    Another person trying to 'hack' the body composition process. Don't you think it's been tried a million times OP?
    It's a question about the nutritional function of fat.
    Last edited by GeneralSerpant; 04-17-2020 at 05:02 AM.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    It's a question about the nutritional function of fat.
    There is a wealth of information on the web for this subject... just google ‘role of dietary fat’

    In particular, humans literally need a certain amount of essential fatty acids or we develop deficiencies.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    There is a wealth of information on the web for this subject... just google ‘role of dietary fat’

    In particular, humans literally need a certain amount of essential fatty acids or we develop deficiencies.
    I guess a general misunderstanding on my part was the idea that optimal celular formation was mainly a role for micronutrients and protein, with micronutrients being more for specific functions and protein for more general fundamental body structuring and then some. Like I get that that's inaccurate and that there is overlap to that characteristic (like with energy), but it's like they all serve a function for each other's main job almost.

    I feel like I've come off spinning around the drain here, but just the line between its function as an energy source and its health properties had confused me. Particularly because of my appetite, as I mentioned. I recognize it as important, just didn't understand why. I feel like in terms of energy, if I could avoid it then I would, but yes everything I kinda know about it for health is more understandable now, especially with your input.
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    Lyle Mcdonald stated the following on his website

    outside of a small essential fatty acid requirement (a few grams per day from the fish oils, EPA/DHA), fats aren’t truly required by the body either. All of the tissues I mentioned above will use glucose if you provide it (the heart is an exception, almost exclusively relying on fatty acids for fuel) and the body can make fatty acids out of other sources if need be (this pathway isn’t utilized massively in humans, although a few conditions will make it relevant).

    So, outside of the small essential fatty acid requirement, one could make an argument for there being no physiological requirement for fats either.


    bodyrecompositionDOTcom/nutrition/carbohydrate-and-fat-controversies

    I only ever see people say you need 0.45g per lb for optimal hormone production etc, but i did any of those studies have a group that supplemented with essential fatty acids EPA/DHA only?. Most people don't get lyles recommended amount of EPA/DHA when consuming more than 0.45g of fat as it is, maybe you only need that much fat for optimal hormone production when you don't get enough EPA/DHA. I would be interested to see what kind of fats were consumed in all of these studies that say you need 0.45g per lb, and how much essential fatty acids they were getting.
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Strong 35th post.
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    Studies have been done and when protein and cals were equated for there was no significant difference in weight loss/gain between a high carb/low fat diet and a low carb/high fat diet.

    Fat is a good source of energy and is needed in regards to hormones and other chemicals processes in the body, however to my knowledge, there isn't really a benefit to eating more than you need. Once you fill your quota your better off stopping there and eating the rest of your cals in carbs or protein.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeneralSerpant View Post
    I guess a general misunderstanding on my part was the idea that optimal celular formation was mainly a role for micronutrients and protein, with micronutrients being more for specific functions and protein for more general fundamental body structuring and then some. Like I get that that's inaccurate and that there is overlap to that characteristic (like with energy), but it's like they all serve a function for each other's main job almost.

    I feel like I've come off spinning around the drain here, but just the line between its function as an energy source and its health properties had confused me. Particularly because of my appetite, as I mentioned. I recognize it as important, just didn't understand why. I feel like in terms of energy, if I could avoid it then I would, but yes everything I kinda know about it for health is more understandable now, especially with your input.
    We are glucose burners unless we are in ketosis for the most part.

    My understanding is that When you consume fat, you can’t ‘use it for energy’ unless you first store it then ‘burn it’ through Lipolysis

    Dietary Carbohydrates are broken down into glucose in the blood, where they are used for energy.

    Protein can be converted to glucose and also used for energy.

    The exception again being ketosis when you’re using ketone bodies instead of glucose primarily.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 04-17-2020 at 08:12 AM.
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    Replies in 1/2 hr - 3 day GeneralSerpant's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kingofturtles View Post
    Studies have been done and when protein and cals were equated for there was no significant difference in weight loss/gain between a high carb/low fat diet and a low carb/high fat diet.

    Fat is a good source of energy and is needed in regards to hormones and other chemicals processes in the body, however to my knowledge, there isn't really a benefit to eating more than you need. Once you fill your quota your better off stopping there and eating the rest of your cals in carbs or protein.
    Agreed. And aptly posited with regard.

    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    We are glucose burners unless we are in ketosis.

    When you consume fat, you can’t ‘use it for energy’ unless you first store it then ‘burn it’.

    Carbohydrates are broken down into glucose into the blood, where they are used for energy.

    Protein can be converted to glucose and also used for energy.

    The exception again being ketosis when you’re using ketone bodies instead of glucose primarily.
    Right. I was probably overestimating its function for energy. Otherwise the inefficiency of protein yeah totally, and I guess I kinda understood fat as inefficient on the same token also.

    The 9 calories per gram aspect I also thought had some kind of natural function, but that's a complete assumption on my part. As an energy source, fat seems to actually resemble gold as a valuable substance. As far as intrinsic value, it's dense enough to conduct electricity but is otherwise impractical and not very beneficial. We just like it because it tastes good.
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    Fat is the preferred energy for skeletal tissue/muscles
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    Originally Posted by kingofturtles View Post
    Fat is the preferred energy for skeletal tissue/muscles

    No it isn’t... are you familiar with how ATP works?

    https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/reso...y-for-exercise
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    No it isn’t... are you familiar with how ATP works?

    https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/reso...y-for-exercise
    Fat carbs and protein can all be converted into ATP. Depending on the nutrients available and the type of movement etc.. happening.

    Between meals, cardiac muscle cells meet 90% of their ATP demands by oxidizing fatty acids.

    fatty acids are the main source of energy in skeletal muscle during rest and mild-intensity exercise. As exercise intensity increases, glucose oxidation surpasses fatty acid oxidation.
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    Originally Posted by kingofturtles View Post
    Fat carbs and protein can all be converted into ATP. Depending on the nutrients available and the type of movement etc.. happening.

    Between meals, cardiac muscle cells meet 90% of their ATP demands by oxidizing fatty acids.

    fatty acids are the main source of energy in skeletal muscle during rest and mild-intensity exercise. As exercise intensity increases, glucose oxidation surpasses fatty acid oxidation.
    Then why did you call it the ‘preferred’ source? It’s context dependent
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    Well preferred is a pretty subjective term. Who knows what the body prefers technically?
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Then why did you call it the ‘preferred’ source? It’s context dependent
    My textbook said prefered. So I said prefered.
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    Originally Posted by kingofturtles View Post
    My textbook said prefered. So I said prefered.
    It’s ‘preferred ’ only under certain conditions...
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    Dogs eat lots of carbs and stay jazzed all day while cats don't do carbs and only run to hunt or get away.

    Neither are particularly invalid I'd say.
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    Just the fact that ingestion of carb/protein tends to suppress or halt fat burning suggests that the body would rather use these instead of fat reserves.
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