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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by George2100 View Post
    Volume is the key driver of hypertrophy. Pertains to working sets (hard)
    I wish I knew that from the start. I spent a great deal of time doing either volume or very few working sets. Finding that balance is in my opinion, the biggest hurdle for a lot of people.
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  2. #32
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    That's very easy to say. The basics apply to newbies and experienced lifters alike. I wonder why a lot of experienced lifters constantly find themselves going back to the basics. His stuff is solid, whether it's geared to newbies, experienced lifters, or everyone in between in my opinion.

    An experienced lifter is simply a newbie whose done it longer. That's a very broad statement I know, but there's so much truth in it.
    To clarify, I don't recall learning anything new or have been reminded of things forgotten watching his videos.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    To clarify, I don't recall learning anything new watching his videos.
    Oh for sure and I could say the same for myself. But it's precisely the fact that him saying nothing new, is why it's effective.

    Considering all the new regurgitated concepts put in different words coming out every year, his channel is a breath of fresh air to me. Have you ever wasted so much time starting out because of all the thousands of different ideas out there? If all the bs videos, articles, advice could just be deleted off the internet and just have the essential truth, it would save people so much time. Sifting through all the bs has been a harder journey than working out itself for me lol. In the end I just got left feeling disappointed and enlightened at the same time
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 10:36 AM.
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I like Greg Nuckol's way of counting volume more because it goes a step further taking into account proximity to failure. What you said is more accurate than counting sets alone because it also counts total tonnage. 5 rep sets do stimulate hypertrophy for the most part which is why like you said 5 rep programs are still so popular. But if I just count the weight×reps and get some number, that number is still just a number at the end of the day.


    But for intensities between 50%-80%, proximity to failure matters. A 12 rep max is roughly 70%. Just because I do 6 reps with 70% doesn't mean I would be getting as much stimulus when I have up to 6 more reps to go.
    'IF' the final set is within 2 reps of failure you've gotten the max out of that set. I use a combination of weight cycling and pushing the final set for 2 extra reps and over the course of a 4 week cycle what started out easy ends in the twilight zone. On the final work out I'm 10 pounds over my best 3x5 weight. If I don't get it I have to choose between repeating the cycle or re-figuring my 3x5 weight. Sometimes I get crazy and start the cycle with 5x5 for the first 3 workouts followed by 3x5 for the next 3 and finish with 1x5 for the final 2 workouts. Everything works and nothing works!
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  5. #35
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    'IF' the final set is within 2 reps of failure you've gotten the max out of that set. I use a combination of weight cycling and pushing the final set for 2 extra reps and over the course of a 4 week cycle what started out easy ends in the twilight zone. On the final work out I'm 10 pounds over my best 3x5 weight. If I don't get it I have to choose between repeating the cycle or re-figuring my 3x5 weight. Sometimes I get crazy and start the cycle with 5x5 for the first 3 workouts followed by 3x5 for the next 3 and finish with 1x5 for the final 2 workouts. Everything works and nothing works!
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  6. #36
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    Sounds like Sean's pushing the 'sets to failure or nothing' idea, which I kinda agree with. But, there's exercises like benchpress and back squat where it becomes problematic to take to that point, so you kinda have to stop before it. I think at least one set taken to failure is a nice compromise, if it's possible in the exercise performed. As far as hypertrophic response, i've seen people get impressive physiques using both high and low volumes, so i'm not entirely sold on the amount performed being a deciding factor. And actually, with many home gyms not having the kind of weight available that the user would like - taking what you do have to failure isn't that bad of an idea if you can force a response each time that way. Gotta do whatcha gotta do, ya know?
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  7. #37
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Have you ever wasted so much time starting out because of all the thousands of different ideas out there?
    When I was a noob, yes. By the time you're able to recognize the good from the bad, you should be well past his content being useful.
    Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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  8. #38
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheShadowMan View Post
    Sounds like Sean's pushing the 'sets to failure or nothing' idea, which I kinda agree with. But, there's exercises like benchpress and back squat where it becomes problematic to take to that point, so you kinda have to stop before it. I think at least one set taken to failure is a nice compromise, if it's possible in the exercise performed. As far as hypertrophic response, i've seen people get impressive physiques using both high and low volumes, so i'm not entirely sold on the amount performed being a deciding factor. And actually, with many home gyms not having the kind of weight available that the user would like - taking what you do have to failure isn't that bad of an idea if you can force a response each time that way. Gotta do whatcha gotta do, ya know?

    Of course. And I recall watching a different video by Sean mentioning that as well in regards to certain exercises.

    And you're right, the deciding factor is not volume. Volume only determines the extent of adaptation. Intensity determines what kind of adaptation.
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  9. #39
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    When I was a noob, yes.
    See that's the thing. I want to help noobs start off right and not waste time like you and I have. So many people give up either taking the easy way out by taking substances or holding onto some sort of limiting belief.
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  10. #40
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    See that's the thing. I want to help noobs start off right and not waste time like you and I have. So many people give up either taking the easy way out by taking substances or holding onto some sort of limiting belief.
    You could try recommending proven novice programs with proper progression schemes to noobs, rather than posting supposedly new revelations every week. But maybe that wouldn't satisfy the hunger of the masses thirsting for your knowledge.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I know you're hungry for knowledge and I like that. But for now, class is dismissed.
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  11. #41
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    You could try recommending proven novice programs with proper progression schemes to noobs, rather than posting supposedly new revelations every week. But maybe that wouldn't satisfy the hunger of the masses thirsting for your knowledge.
    The reason I don't do that is because I train using auto-regulated progression. So I'm going to be pushing auto-regulated progression instead of progression schemes. It is just so much easier to go by feel in my opinion. Your muscles tell you what you can and can't do. I'd prefer helping noobs learn how to get in touch with their muscles over numbers. Numbers are based on expectations. Muscles go off of real time strength. They can either do an extra rep today or not. I like having a very natural and simple approach completely stripped down to the most boring form possible.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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  12. #42
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    I, too, will help burn this straw man.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    The reason I don't do that is because I train using auto-regulated progression. So I'm going to be pushing auto-regulated progression instead of progression schemes. It is just so much easier to go by feel in my opinion. Your muscles tell you what you can and can't do. I'd prefer helping noobs learn how to get in touch with their muscles over numbers. Numbers are based on expectations. Muscles go off of real time strength. They can either do an extra rep today or not. I like having a very natural and simple approach completely stripped down to the most boring form possible.
    Well if you like it, then I guess noobs should all do the same thing. Why do F5 when you can do whatever you feel like on any given day.

    Somewhat clear why you haven't progressed in reps/external resistance for 3 months - but whatever.
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  14. #44
    Han shot first! TolerantLactose's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    See that's the thing. I want to help noobs start off right and not waste time like you and I have. So many people give up either taking the easy way out by taking substances or holding onto some sort of limiting belief.
    Yes. We are quite alike. Yes.
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  15. #45
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    I can't imagine leaving 5 reps in the tank even on a 50+ rep set.

    What kind of person would do that on a set of 10?

    My home workout sucks because my dogs often like to come and join in a set to help dad,which leads to me having to tell them no and losing focus
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  16. #46
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Well if you like it, then I guess noobs should all do the same thing. Why do F5 when you can do whatever you feel like on any given day.

    Somewhat clear why you haven't progressed in reps/external resistance for 3 months - but whatever.
    My pics is proof of progression.
    https://ibb.co/Ws2LjZx

    Can't argue with the mirror

    I'm all for the same exercises, volume, etc. in F5 and all but I think it's easier just to train hard and add a rep or weight when you can. Progress isn't always linear either. As long as you train hard with enough volume and eat enough, the progress automatically comes.
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  17. #47
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    I can't imagine leaving 5 reps in the tank even on a 50+ rep set.

    What kind of person would do that on a set of 10?

    My home workout sucks because my dogs often like to come and join in a set to help dad,which leads to me having to tell them no and losing focus
    A lot of people are doing it with these home workouts doing endless reps and sets of push ups. That's why many youtubers like alphadestiny, omarisuf, etc. have mentioned the same.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 12:32 PM.
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  18. #48
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    The reason I don't do that is because I train using auto-regulated progression. So I'm going to be pushing auto-regulated progression instead of progression schemes. It is just so much easier to go by feel in my opinion. Your muscles tell you what you can and can't do. I'd prefer helping noobs learn how to get in touch with their muscles over numbers. Numbers are based on expectations. Muscles go off of real time strength. They can either do an extra rep today or not. I like having a very natural and simple approach completely stripped down to the most boring form possible.
    I actually really strongly disagree with this. The biggest problems for noobs are lack of consistency, poor programming, and not pushing hard enough. If you give a noob a good beginner routine with set progression that will take care of the latter two problems. Maybe the first few workouts they don't have to push hard but eventually to continue making progress they will be forced to dig deeper, push harder, and do more reps or more weight. If you tell them to go by feel they will generally stop far short of pushing themselves hard enough to progress over an extended period of time. At least that's been my observation in >15 years on this site and in multiple different gyms.
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  19. #49
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heisman2 View Post
    I actually really strongly disagree with this. The biggest problems for noobs are lack of consistency, poor programming, and not pushing hard enough. If you give a noob a good beginner routine with set progression that will take care of the latter two problems. Maybe the first few workouts they don't have to push hard but eventually to continue making progress they will be forced to dig deeper, push harder, and do more reps or more weight. If you tell them to go by feel they will generally stop far short of pushing themselves hard enough to progress over an extended period of time. At least that's been my observation in >15 years on this site and in multiple different gyms.
    I could agree with that. My biggest gripe with set progression is when it leads to too much overreaching and break down of form just to lift 5 more lbs or do another rep. I was that guy. When I finally said screw the set progression I'm going to do more when I can, then I started making gains again. I always knew how to push hard as a noob because I was also exposed to the idea of failure from being so obsessed with bodybuilding back then as well as having been on the varsity track team in high school. I'd push myself to the point of throwing up on several occassions as a noob. Say I struggled with a weight last workout. Well the next workout I'd STILL try to add even more weight. All a novice program really helped me with was consistency and good exercise selection.

    Someone whose already very familiar with pushing hard enough is better off with auto regulated progression in my opinion.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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  20. #50
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I could agree with that. My biggest gripe with set progression is when it leads to too much overreaching and break down of form just to lift 5 more lbs or do another rep. I was that guy. When I finally said screw the set progression I'm going to do more when I can, then I started making gains again. I always knew how to push hard as a noob because I was also exposed to the idea of failure from being so obsessed with bodybuilding back then.
    If you overreached and sacrificed form that's your fault. If you actually did a proper routine like F5 back then you would've had built-in methods to push past stalls. Because you couldn't progress on your own made up routine for linear progression, you knock all other proven programs for noobs.

    And instead of getting on a proper program, you stopped lifting weights all together for weighted calisthenics, and now knock lifting weights and rely on increasing bodyweight as your sole progression method. If you had actually succeeded in progressing with weights, you never would've had the "weighted calisthenics > weights anyday" revelation.

    You back yourself into corners by making decrees in absolutes and thinking you're educating the ignorant masses based on your year or two of training.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    EVEN with the surplus and the high protein and rest, I STILL can hardly progress and it’s so frustrating because my numbers are absolute dirt relative to my genetic ceiling. There is no way I can stay stuck with these numbers. I am super consistent with my workouts, I don’t miss any. I should be able to add weight every WEEK at least. Not every workout but at least every week. I can’t even do that let alone a rep. Not even my squat and deadlift want to budge even though they’re the biggest movements, it makes no sense. ... I just can’t keep the progression moving forward no matter how hard I go and how good my diet is. ... What the hell is going on here? It’s as if hard work, consistency, rest, and eating right is a lie. I am out of solutions.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    If you overreached and sacrificed form that's your fault. If you actually did a proper routine like F5 back then you would've had built-in methods to push past stalls. Because you couldn't progress on your own made up routine for linear progression, you knock all other proven programs for noobs.

    And instead of getting on a proper program, you stopped lifting weights all together for weighted calisthenics, and now knock lifting weights and rely on increasing bodyweight as your sole progression method. If you had actually succeeded in progressing with weights, you never would've had the "weighted calisthenics > weights anyday" revelation.

    You back yourself into corners by making decrees in absolutes and thinking you're educating the ignorant masses based on your year or two of training.
    Whatever floats your boat. My pics speak for themselves so obviously my program is proper because it works for me. I actually did and followed a proper routine. Eventually ran out of linear progression. Not saying novice programs don't work at all. Just saying there's some disadvantages.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you succeed with as long as you succeed. We are all here for more or less the same goal. You're really going to sit here and say I couldn't make it with weights so I turned to calisthenics? What if I end up having more muscle doing calisthenics while you're lifting weights for the same reason? Wouldn't you look silly in the end. Only reason I knock lifting weights is based off of real facts such as having to spend time driving to the gym and paying a gym membership. Also getting your own gym as weights is more expensive. I have no other issues with weights other than those mentioned.

    I didnt just increase my bodyweight, I gained muscle as you can see in the pics in that link. Everywhere I go everyone noticed I got more jacked and they ask me how. If I only gained fat that sure as hell wouldn't happen. If anything you back yourself into corners for telling me that I got fat when clearly my pics show otherwise.

    Show me where I got fat bro:
    https://ibb.co/Ws2LjZx

    Yeah that's what I thought. Back yourself into a corner some more by saying I got fat. Why don't you just buy yourself a red spongey ball for a nose? Are you jealous you don't have my physique? I don't see you posting any proof or saying anything about my progress pics. All talk. Oh wait I forgot. You're going to come up with some excuse that you have nothing to prove. So what do you keep on smoking over there about me backing myself into corners?

    Only reason I say weighted calisthenics>weights is because calisthenics is much more convenient to making gains the cheap way. Iron ain't cheap. Even going to Play it Again Sports, they charge like 72 cents a pound. Weights take up so much space as well.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 03:13 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Whatever floats your boat. My pics speak for themselves so obviously my program is proper because it works for me. I actually did and followed a proper routine. Eventually ran out of linear progression. Not saying novice programs don't work at all. Just saying there's some disadvantages.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you succeed with as long as you succeed. We are all here for more or less the same goal. You're really going to sit here and say I couldn't make it with weights so I turned to calisthenics? What if I end up having more muscle doing calisthenics while you're lifting weights for the same reason? Wouldn't you look silly in the end. Only reason I knock lifting weights is based off of real facts such as having to spend time driving to the gym and paying a gym membership. Also getting your own gym as weights is more expensive. I have no other issues with weights other than those mentioned.

    I didnt just increase my bodyweight, I gained muscle as you can see in the pics in that link. Everywhere I go everyone noticed I got more jacked and they ask me how. If I only gained fat that sure as hell wouldn't happen. If anything you back yourself into corners for telling me that I got fat when clearly my pics show otherwise.

    Show me where I got fat bro:
    https://ibb.co/Ws2LjZx

    Yeah that's what I thought. Back yourself into a corner some more by saying I got fat. Why don't you just buy yourself a red spongey ball for a nose? Are you jealous you don't have my physique? I don't see you posting any proof or saying anything about my progress pics. All talk. Oh wait I forgot. You're going to come up with some excuse that you have nothing to prove. So what do you keep on smoking over there about me backing myself into corners?

    Only reason I say weighted calisthenics>weights is because calisthenics is much more convenient to making gains the cheap way. Iron ain't cheap. Even going to Play it Again Sports, they charge like 72 cents a pound. Weights take up so much space as well.
    TBH it's interesting watching you edit your post 22x in the last hour, and seeing your arguments and zingers evolve from 1 sentence into the above. It's like watching a great writer create a novel. Carry on...
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Whatever floats your boat. My pics speak for themselves so obviously my program is proper because it works for me. I actually did and followed a proper routine. Eventually ran out of linear progression. Not saying novice programs don't work at all. Just saying there's some disadvantages.
    When linear progression stops you use periodization cycles. If your training by feel you are deluding yourself. You never really know how many reps you've got left unless you go to failure. P.S. going to failure every time is just plain stupid unless you're on gear.
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    On a different note from the volume debate, I’ve wondered if the whole sand bag/family dog/other improvised equipment (in my case a tool box stuffed with 10-20lb DBs), not counting bodyweight moves here, would provide a different or inadequate stimulus relative to barbell and dumbbells designed to be held in specific ways and with certain proximities to the body in mind. For example, I find that single-arm toolbox rows are awkward in that I don’t feel as though I’m getting the full ROM, even though the camera shows that I do, possibly due to the distribution of weights inside the box and the fact that there is room in between the weight inside and the top of the box and then the handle. I can only fit so much in there, but I try to pad the DBs with clothing as much as I can to mitigate the shifting of weight inside... but it’s still kind of weird.

    I’m also having trouble figuring out how to add weight to banded DLs, short of adding bands, because at a certain point the more medium-heavy bands added the harder it is to grip due to the thickness. Chalk and straps can’t save me here.
    Last edited by Xpiro; 04-05-2020 at 05:36 PM.
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    When linear progression stops you use periodization cycles. If your training by feel you are deluding yourself. You never really know how many reps you've got left unless you go to failure. P.S. going to failure every time is just plain stupid unless you're on gear.
    I have to disagree with this. You can know how many reps you have left until failure. I know when I have 1 rep in reserve and that's when I end the set. The moment my rep speed drops significantly, I immediately know I got 5 more to go until failure. I guess you can say I try do do as many slow grindy reps as I can before I hit failure. So I'm not necessarily going after failure, I'm just going after those hard reps. Let's say that I'm off by 1 rep and I can do 2 more reps instead of just 1. That's still really good and tells me I got close enough that set. Plus many times you haven't recovered fully or you've had some stress or feeling weak during a workout. Training by feel allows the body to go the direction it wants if it wants more recovery or whatever. Massive Iron youtube channel is all about autoregulated progression.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 08:00 PM.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    TBH it's interesting watching you edit your post 22x in the last hour, and seeing your arguments and zingers evolve from 1 sentence into the above. It's like watching a great writer create a novel. Carry on...
    I know right? It's like I get more and more insights after I finish a post that I can't help but edit and include it in. A lot of times it's because of the insight thing or self amusement. You still haven't proven that I got fat though after I posted my progress pics. Little silent on that aren't we? I actually improved in reps other than weight gain, there's no way I haven't telling from the pics. What the hell was I even talking about. Guess when gains are so slow after passing beginner stage, it feels like you're not making any progress. Until I looked in the mirror I was like damn. I need to start trusting the mirror more
    Last edited by Animal2692; 04-05-2020 at 08:07 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Xpiro View Post
    On a different note from the volume debate, I’ve wondered if the whole sand bag/family dog/other improvised equipment (in my case a tool box stuffed with 10-20lb DBs), not counting bodyweight moves here, would provide a different or inadequate stimulus relative to barbell and dumbbells designed to be held in specific ways and with certain proximities to the body in mind. For example, I find that single-arm toolbox rows are awkward in that I don’t feel as though I’m getting the full ROM, even though the camera shows that I do, possibly due to the distribution of weights inside the box and the fact that there is room in between the weight inside and the top of the box and then the handle. I can only fit so much in there, but I try to pad the DBs with clothing as much as I can to mitigate the shifting of weight inside... but it’s still kind of weird.

    I’m also having trouble figuring out how to add weight to banded DLs, short of adding bands, because at a certain point the more medium-heavy bands added the harder it is to grip due to the thickness. Chalk and straps can’t save me here.
    I thought the bands would be out of your grip's way or something
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I thought the bands would be out of your grip's way or something
    What do you mean?

    Granted I am using those rubber loop bands. I fold it in half and stand on it, creating handles, which I feed my hands through and grip from the floor and deadlift up. I kind of have to scrunch the handles up in my hands because they’re so wide-set, if that makes sense. And then of course they get thicker and more difficult to scrunch when I add a second band.
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    Originally Posted by Xpiro View Post
    What do you mean?

    Granted I am using those rubber loop bands. I fold it in half and stand on it, creating handles, which I feed my hands through and grip from the floor and deadlift up. I kind of have to scrunch the handles up in my hands because they’re so wide-set, if that makes sense. And then of course they get thicker and more difficult to scrunch when I add a second band.

    Because when you said banded deadlifts I was picturing barbell deadlifts with bands so I was thinking don't you just put the bands over the bar in that case? But you're doing 100% banded no barbell so now it makes sense. I've done that before, I know how it is. Those heavier bands get so wide you can't even do the exercise.

    If you're sticking to banded only, you can try getting some sort of handles for them. Tubular bands allow for this very easily.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Because training hard isn't what you're supposed to do? I'm declaring everyone is wrong and giving the one solution that you need to train hard to provide a stimulus? Didn't know that stating facts meant that. Do you have anything else here to lecture us on?
    Yeah, all those people with "Train easy or go home" t-shirts are going to have to buy something else to wear in the gym now.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I wish I knew that from the start. I spent a great deal of time doing either volume or very few working sets. Finding that balance is in my opinion, the biggest hurdle for a lot of people.
    There is a lot of BS out there: if you can do 80 push-ups in one go - the only target is doing 100 (not considering harder variations), or measuring a workout purely on the basis of how much you sweated (not if you're progressing over time).

    Thankfully... that BS is very scarce in these forums. You're in the right place.
    Last edited by OldFartTom; 04-06-2020 at 05:26 AM.
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