PPL split advice

[StillbornSoul]

I want to focus on hypertrophy while still making some progress on my numbers.
Any suggested changes for exercise selection or volume, especially where cumulative fatigue and overtraining become a concern?


Pull A

Deadlifts: 3X3
Bent-over Rows: 3x8-10
Weighted Pullups: 3x8-10
T-bar Rows: 3x8-10
Face-pulls: 3x-10-12
Barbell Bicep Curls: 3x-5-8
Hammer Curls: 3x10-12

Push A

Bench Press: 3x5
Press: 5x5
Incline DB Press: 3x8-10
Cable flyes: 3x12-15
Cable Side Lateral Raise/DB Hip Huggers: 3x10-12 *Superset*
Tricep Pushdowns: 3x10-12
Cable Overhead Triceps Extension: 3x10-12

Legs A:

Low-bar Squats: 5x5
Hip Belt squats: 3x8-10
Glute-ham Raise: 3x10-12
Landmine Reverse Lunges: 3x10-12
Calf Raises/Cable Crunches 5x10-12 *Superset*

Pull B

Weighted Chin-ups: 5X5
Pendlay Rows: 3x5
Bentover Rows: 3x8-10
Face-pulls: 3x-10-12
Barbell Curls: 3x-10-12
Hammer Curls: 3x10-12

Push B

Press: 3x5
Bench Press: 5x5
Weighted Chest Dips: 3x8-10
Cable Crossovers High-to-Low Ladder: Tabata sets
Dumbbell Side Lateral Raise/DB Hip Huggers: 3x10-12 *Superset*
Tricep Pushdowns: 3x10-12
Cable Overhead Triceps Extension: 3x10-12

Legs B:

Low-bar Squats: 3x5
Front Squats: 3x8-10
Romanian Deadlifts: 3x10-12
Landmine Reverse Lunges: 3x10-12
Calf Raises/Weighted Hanging Leg Raises: 5x10-12 *Superset*

[air2fakie]

That's a lot... what are your numbers, how long have you been lifting, what routine are you currently doing, is this volume similar to what you've been doing and what has your progress been like?

[paulinkansas]

Your upper pushes seem to have more volume than your upper pulls. I thought it should be a 3:2 ratio between pullush, or maybe 3:4. Anyways, more upper pull than upper push.

[StillbornSoul]

That's a lot... what are your numbers, how long have you been lifting, what routine are you currently doing, is this volume similar to what you've been doing and what has your progress been like?

Numbers are trash but programs like starting strength stall me quickly and I burn out so I wanted to focus on hypertrophy for a while with strength taking the back seat and basically what Im saying is 5 rep max grinds burn my CNS too easily so I was thinking of doing lower intensity for the 5 rep sets and everyone says volume is the key to size.

[StillbornSoul]

Your upper pushes seem to have more volume than your upper pulls. I thought it should be a 3:2 ratio between pullush, or maybe 3:4. Anyways, more upper pull than upper push.

ratio recommendations aside how do you count more push than pull? There's a row for every horizontal press and chins/pull-ups for every overhead press.

[ECGordyn]

Viking's ULPPL and Fierce 5 LULPP would both be great choices.
You might find PPL twice a week to burn you out, too. I did it for a while and it was counterproductive.
Your program doesn't look all that bad, but 6 days a week could be too much.

[StillbornSoul]

I'll add this is what I had been doing most recently:


Bench 3X5
Press 3X5
Chins 3X8

Squat 3X5
Deadlift 1X5
Pendlay rows 3X5

Repeat each for 4 total workouts a week.

[StillbornSoul]

Viking's ULPPL and Fierce 5 LULPP would both be great choices.
You might find PPL twice a week to burn you out, too. I did it for a while and it was counterproductive.
Your program doesn't look all that bad, but 6 days a week could be too much.

I was hoping that the 6 days would allow me to sneak in more volume without being fatigued mid workout as much. I looked at vikings and it doesnt seem to be too different in selection. Looks interesting.

How can I best maximize hypertrophy without burning out in your opinion?

I was originally thinking of doing a forced deload week every 4-6 weeks on it.

Maybe something like this?

Pull A
Pendlay row 5-3-1
Pull-ups 5X10
T-bar rows 4X10

Push A
Bench press 5-3-1
Press 5X10
Egyptian side lateral raise 4X10-12

Legs A
Squat 5-3-1
Deadlift 5X10
Glute-ham raise 4X10

Pull B
Chin-ups 5-3-1
Bent-over Rows 5X10
Unlilateral High Cable Rows 4X10

Push B
Press 5-3-1
Bench press 5X10
Cable Crossovers 4X10

[air2fakie]

Numbers are trash but programs like starting strength stall me quickly and I burn out so I wanted to focus on hypertrophy for a while with strength taking the back seat and basically what Im saying is 5 rep max grinds burn my CNS too easily so I was thinking of doing lower intensity for the 5 rep sets and everyone says volume is the key to size.

Not everyone says volume is the key to size. A program with a sensible amount of volume (for you) and progressive overload is how you'll make gains. If your #s are trash this much volume 6 days/week will likely be counterproductive. Even if you're doing more reps you still should be pushing yourself hard on your lifts, and you won't have much left in the tank after DL-Rows-Pullups-Rows and all your presses.

I was hoping that the 6 days would allow me to sneak in more volume without being fatigued mid workout as much.

If you're burning out already and not making progress, the answer usually isn't more days and more volume. Most advanced lifters don't really need to lift 6 days/week. For you, even a PPLUL might be too much. I'd recommend trying out a 4-day UL and see how you progress for a while. Sometimes less is more - if you're going to work out 6 days/week you should be allocating the same volume you would otherwise do across more days.

If you're deadset on a PPL no matter what, I'd recommend cutting things down, and adding more volume slowly after you're able to see good gains on less volume. But it's your routine, so do whatever volume or split you feel will work best for you.

[StillbornSoul]

Not everyone says volume is the key to size. A program with a sensible amount of volume (for you) and progressive overload is how you'll make gains. If your #s are trash this much volume 6 days/week will likely be counterproductive. Even if you're doing more reps you still should be pushing yourself hard on your lifts, and you won't have much left in the tank after DL-Rows-Pullups-Rows and all your presses.



If you're burning out already and not making progress, the answer usually isn't more days and more volume. Most advanced lifters don't really need to lift 6 days/week. For you, even a PPLUL might be too much. I'd recommend trying out a 4-day UL and see how you progress for a while. Sometimes less is more - if you're going to work out 6 days/week you should be allocating the same volume you would otherwise do across more days.

If you're deadset on a PPL no matter what, I'd recommend cutting things down, and adding more volume slowly after you're able to see good gains on less volume. But it's your routine, so do whatever volume or split you feel will work best for you.

I appreciate the thought you put into replying to me.

I like the PPL structure regardless of total volume because it allows me to go harder without lift #3 and #4 on the list suffering as much like:

Ex.
Bench press
BoR
Press
Chins

The press and chins suffer for me here because I put everything into bench and rows.

So if I apply your advice and do like two major lifts a day and maybe one accessory 6 days a week, so long as the total volume is kept in check as you say it shouldnt matter doing it in 4 days over 6 days for recovery and fatigue management. It also keeps my sessions short and lets me do pulls on a fresh tank.

[ECGordyn]

I like the PPL structure regardless of total volume because it allows me to go harder without lift #3 and #4 on the list suffering as much like:

The problem would be cumulative fatigue, which would hold you back progressively as you run the program over time. At first you'd feel like a beast pounding it 6 days a week. But after some weeks, you'd run out of gas. A forced deload as you plan is a good idea, but if you add up all the volume and the deloads over each block, then the net balance would be about the same as you doing a ULPPL with fewer deloads. If it's your style to lift hard and then rest hard, then go for it. But if you start feeling fatigued then think about reducing volume.

Two more good programs for your goals would Candito's Linear Strength/Hypertrophy, and Kizen Infinite Offseason.

[StillbornSoul]

The problem would be cumulative fatigue, which would hold you back progressively as you run the program over time. At first you'd feel like a beast pounding it 6 days a week. But after some weeks, you'd run out of gas. A forced deload as you plan is a good idea, but if you add up all the volume and the deloads over each block, then the net balance would be about the same as you doing a ULPPL with fewer deloads. If it's your style to lift hard and then rest hard, then go for it. But if you start feeling fatigued then think about reducing volume.

Two more good programs for your goals would Candito's Linear Strength/Hypertrophy, and Kizen Infinite Offseason.

Yeah.

The best gains I ever made were doing a 4 day Texas method back in 2017, but I dirty bulked into oblivion to do it and couldnt bench press because I had a torn rotator cuff. That was by far the most success I ever had though.

I appreciate your patience and helpfulness. Checking your program recommendations now.

[air2fakie]

So if I apply your advice and do like two major lifts a day and maybe one accessory 6 days a week, so long as the total volume is kept in check as you say it shouldnt matter doing it in 4 days over 6 days for recovery and fatigue management. It also keeps my sessions short and lets me do pulls on a fresh tank.

Correct, if you have a sensible amount of volume you can spread it over as many days as you want. It's easier to stay on track if you're not committed to so many days in the gym, but if you want to do a PPL it's up to you. Based on you saying your #s are trash, I'd guess somewhere between 12-15 sets/day would be your sweet spot, but giving it your all on the big lifts.

You can do diff exercises on each specific PPL day if you want to keep variety even though you're cutting volume out. Whatever you end up running, if you're getting fatigued or not progressing, don't think of ways to add more volume - you'll be surprised how you can progress and see better gains with less if you're doing too much. Still think you might see better gains with a simple UL or another program with less days/week but up to you.

[TAWS6]

A 5 day ULPPL is as far as a natural lifter should go imo. It’s honestly overkill for most people unless you’re very advanced. If I ever ran PPL again it would be on a rotating 2 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off repeat schedule. I’d never suggest 6 days to anyone.

[StillbornSoul]

The problem would be cumulative fatigue, which would hold you back progressively as you run the program over time. At first you'd feel like a beast pounding it 6 days a week. But after some weeks, you'd run out of gas. A forced deload as you plan is a good idea, but if you add up all the volume and the deloads over each block, then the net balance would be about the same as you doing a ULPPL with fewer deloads. If it's your style to lift hard and then rest hard, then go for it. But if you start feeling fatigued then think about reducing volume.

Two more good programs for your goals would Candito's Linear Strength/Hypertrophy, and Kizen Infinite Offseason.

The Kizen progression scheme looks interesting enough to try out...

[StillbornSoul]

A 5 day ULPPL is as far as a natural lifter should go imo. It’s honestly overkill for most people unless you’re very advanced. If I ever ran PPL again it would be on a rotating 2 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off repeat schedule. I’d never suggest 6 days to anyone.

Any ULPPL in particular? PHUL? Anything else?

[TAWS6]

Any ULPPL in particular? PHUL? Anything else?

Fierce 5 LULPP is good.
PHUL is decent

A workout routine . Com has some good programs too.

[StillbornSoul]

Fierce 5 LULPP is good.
PHUL is decent

A workout routine . Com has some good programs too.

sweet thanks.

[paulinkansas]

ratio recommendations aside how do you count more push than pull? There's a row for every horizontal press and chins/pull-ups for every overhead press.

I counted 10 pushes and 8 pulls. Not counting arms.

[Advice1998]

Viking's ULPPL and Fierce 5 LULPP would both be great choices.
You might find PPL twice a week to burn you out, too. I did it for a while and it was counterproductive.
Your program doesn't look all that bad, but 6 days a week could be too much.

Yo ive seen this alot that People say 6 days a week is too much.. For me ive been following 3 Months now ppl getting great gains literally took 3 days off In that 3 Months so not even deload and Still feeling fresh

[air2fakie]

Yo ive seen this alot that People say 6 days a week is too much.. For me ive been following 3 Months now ppl getting great gains literally took 3 days off In that 3 Months so not even deload and Still feeling fresh

OP, until recently this guy was doing PPL but skipping the two leg days, and also couldn't do more than a couple of pullups, so make of that what you will.

[StillbornSoul]

I counted 10 pushes and 8 pulls. Not counting arms.

This is how I count it all out:


Pull A
111-135 total Pull reps (curls not counted)

Push A
130-154 total Push reps — (Not counting triceps iso work, but counting iso chest and shoulder work)
30-36 total Pull reps — (DB Hip huggers are pulls)

Pull B
94-106 total Pull reps

Push B
124-142 total Push reps
30-36 total Pull reps — (DB Hip huggers are pulls)

TOTALS
254-296 total push reps/week
295-349 total pull reps/week


Also of note, I'm not really sure its fair to even count cable crossovers and side lateral raises or any single joint movement in the push/pull ratio as I've read from other posters in the past, not to mention the significantly lighter poundages for these movements compared to even the lighter accessory work for back, much less the main lifts compared to one another. I'm also under the impression that horizontal push to vertical push is just as if not more important to balance than anterior and posterior groups.

I'm not arguing with you or anything, just explaining my reasoning here and how I came up with this assemblage. If you take the actual working weight volume of my pulls in terms of weightXtotal reps compared to that of my pushes, Im sure the pulls finish ahead of the pushes. Not 3:1, but nonetheless ahead of.


What is the standard or considerations that you apply when programming or how your count shows an actual pushing bias?

I also never understood how these ratios never get applied to 3X week full body beginner or power lifting programs.

[StillbornSoul]

OP, until recently this guy was doing PPL but skipping the two leg days, and also couldn't do more than a couple of pullups, so make of that what you will.

So he runs a Push Pull nolegs 3X frequency? Lol.

[Advice1998]

So he runs a Push Pull nolegs 3X frequency? Lol.

What u mean 3x frequency? "he" im here lol.... I ran push pull off push pull off.. Cause my legs was great and now im doing ppl and results are coming like crazy.. Strength and size... Been doing 3 Months... But for legs maybe 1 month been hitting them now

[Advice1998]

I want to focus on hypertrophy while still making some progress on my numbers.
Any suggested changes for exercise selection or volume, especially where cumulative fatigue and overtraining become a concern?


Pull A

Deadlifts: 3X3
Bent-over Rows: 3x8-10
Weighted Pullups: 3x8-10
T-bar Rows: 3x8-10
Face-pulls: 3x-10-12
Barbell Bicep Curls: 3x-5-8
Hammer Curls: 3x10-12

Push A

Bench Press: 3x5
Press: 5x5
Incline DB Press: 3x8-10
Cable flyes: 3x12-15
Cable Side Lateral Raise/DB Hip Huggers: 3x10-12 *Superset*
Tricep Pushdowns: 3x10-12
Cable Overhead Triceps Extension: 3x10-12

Legs A:

Low-bar Squats: 5x5
Hip Belt squats: 3x8-10
Glute-ham Raise: 3x10-12
Landmine Reverse Lunges: 3x10-12
Calf Raises/Cable Crunches 5x10-12 *Superset*

Pull B

Weighted Chin-ups: 5X5
Pendlay Rows: 3x5
Bentover Rows: 3x8-10
Face-pulls: 3x-10-12
Barbell Curls: 3x-10-12
Hammer Curls: 3x10-12

Push B

Press: 3x5
Bench Press: 5x5
Weighted Chest Dips: 3x8-10
Cable Crossovers High-to-Low Ladder: Tabata sets
Dumbbell Side Lateral Raise/DB Hip Huggers: 3x10-12 *Superset*
Tricep Pushdowns: 3x10-12
Cable Overhead Triceps Extension: 3x10-12

Legs B:

Low-bar Squats: 3x5
Front Squats: 3x8-10
Romanian Deadlifts: 3x10-12
Landmine Reverse Lunges: 3x10-12
Calf Raises/Weighted Hanging Leg Raises: 5x10-12 *Superset*

As a big believer in ppl, i love your A Push A pull A legs... How ever question is... Can you hang with that program and dont burn your ass TO the ground son

[paulinkansas]

This is how I count it all out:

I was just counting specific exercises, not total reps. Carry on.

[StillbornSoul]

What u mean 3x frequency? "he" im here lol.... I ran push pull off push pull off.. Cause my legs was great and now im doing ppl and results are coming like crazy.. Strength and size... Been doing 3 Months... But for legs maybe 1 month been hitting them now

Lol. Hello "He." As long as it fits your goals.

[StillbornSoul]

I was just counting specific exercises, not total reps. Carry on.

So are you saying it's not *as* bad now or still think its a horrendous balance?

[paulinkansas]

So are you saying it's not *as* bad now or still think its a horrendous balance?

Neither. It looks like a good balance. More pull than push.

[StillbornSoul]

Neither. It looks like a good balance. More pull than push.

Thanks. What then about the issue of fatigue management and overtraining?