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  1. #31
    4am club health4life24's Avatar
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    After the many years I’ve been training I choose to base my training off intuition and actual trial and error and experienced gained learning what works for me and what doesn’t and not just off what some study says.

    Studies have their place but they are not guaranteed. Just because a study says something does NOT mean it’s right or will be true for everyone.

    How about some actual trial and error in the gym and figuring out firsthand what kind of results you get doing something versus speculation because of something you read.

    Enough of this trying to quantify everything for everyone. No study replaces actual experience in the gym trying something out for a period of time and evaluating results.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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  2. #32
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    OP, looking forward to next week when you post your weekly revelation on what the one and only best way to workout is.

    And you should post your bulking advice to the Nutrition forum to gain 10 lbs in a week and 20 lbs in 2 months. Progressive overload by getting fat quickly. A great justification for maintaining a poor diet over a long time - equating getting fat to consistent progressive overload.

    As a reminder, last week's perspective...
    Good to know my fan base is growing.

    Water retention and glycogen as well as food in GI tract can account for up to 10lbs of weight gain coming off a long, steep cut fyi. To educate you, in order to gain 10lbs in a week I would have to have eaten a 5000 calorie surplus a day which is 35,000 calories a week where a week has 7 days which is 10lbs of fat since 1lb of fat is 3500 calories. That means I only really gained 10lbs of body mass in fat and muscle in 3 months which puts me at 3.3lbs of solid mass (fat+muscle) gain a month. And if you think accuracy in counting calories is the problem, all calories are calculated daily using fitness pal and if unsure about fitness pal values, I google it. Also got a new digital scale for weighing food and also account for all sauces. No extra liquid calories slipping through the cracks either.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 01:00 PM.
    Weighted calisthenics>weights anyday. Relative strength>absolute strength

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  3. #33
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    After the many years I’ve been training I choose to base my training off intuition and actual trial and error and experienced gained learning what works for me and what doesn’t and not just off what some study says.

    Studies have their place but they are not guaranteed. Just because a study says something does NOT mean it’s right or will be true for everyone.

    How about some actual trial and error in the gym and figuring out firsthand what kind of results you get doing something versus speculation because of something you read.

    Enough of this trying to quantify everything for everyone. No study replaces actual experience in the gym trying something out for a period of time and evaluating results.

    Let me ask you this. Where else do studies come from? In these studies, subjects are exposed to real lifting conditions, real lifting experiences with different volumes and loads.

    I go off of studies that ARE based off real experiences. They don't have the be completely separate from experience like black and white.
    Weighted calisthenics>weights anyday. Relative strength>absolute strength

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  4. #34
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Good to know my fan base is growing.

    Water retention and glycogen as well as food in GI tract can account for up to 10lbs of weight gain coming off a long, steep cut fyi. To educate you, in order to gain 10lbs in a week I would have to have eaten a 5000 calorie surplus a day which is 35,000 calories a week where a week has 7 days which is 10lbs of fat since 1lb of fat is 3500 calories. That means I only really gained 10lbs of body mass in fat and muscle in 3 months which puts me at 3.3lbs of solid mass (fat+muscle) gain a month. And if you think accuracy in counting calories is the problem, all calories are calculated daily using fitness pal and if unsure about fitness pal values, I google it. Also got a new digital scale for weighing food and also account for all sauces. No extra liquid calories slipping through the cracks either.
    Thanks for editing your initial response 3 hrs later to add the extra paragraph to further educate me on how gaining 20 lbs in 3 months is the ideal way to bulk.

    Do whatever you want, I only respond so newbies who read your lengthy posts about the one right way to do things (oddly a diff theory every week) don't get the wrong idea that you actually know what you're talking about.

    Have fun weighing your Big Macs, nuggets & honey mustard/BBQ sauces - must have a lot stuck in your GI tract.
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  5. #35
    Powerbuilder all pro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Size does NOT equal volume. EFFECTIVE volume equals size. That's why volume falls into two categories: junk volume and effective volume. Effective volume matters a lot more when using lighter loads because lighter loads don't stimulate growth right out of the gate due to low mechanical tension. So for lighter loads, getting close to failure is a requirement to place enough mechanical tension on fiber as the muscle fatigues.

    Everyone who ignores the idea of junk volume has me wondering if they even train hard enough. It's as if everyone wanna do tons of sets but no one wants to get close to failure and people start getting cornered when I talk to them about that.

    Heavy loads build muscle efficiently because there's a struggle right out of the gate. To get the same effect using a lighter load, you MUST get close to failure.

    If every rep counts then let's all do 100 rep sets. Proximity to failure doesn't matter. Just train while you can still read a book. It's the volume that matters.
    Size = volume PERIOD.......so long as the weight is at least 60% of a 1 rep max. 2, fast contraction speed = extremely high mechanical tension, in fact if the speed and loading are correct it will equal 1 rep max force. Define junk volume. EVERY REP COUNTS 'IF' the load on the bar is at least 60% of a 1 rep max.
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    80-85% of a 1 rep max activates all fibers as long as it's more or less a 5 rep max because you can only get about 5-7 stimulating reps in a set depending on whether you're a beginner or elite level but on average it's about 5 reps. Some people have more fast twitch fibers than others and can do 1 to 2 more reps at 85% of their max.

    And yes, althoughfast rep speed provides 100% muscle recruitment, it doesn't necessarily provide high mechanical tension. If you do 8 reps really quick with a light weight, none of them will really stimulate any growth because of the force velocity relationship. All the fibers are activated thus decreasing the mechanical tension on each fiber if lifting a light weight fast. Muscle fiber recruitment is one HALF of the equation. The other is mechanical tension. You would have to keep lifting that lighter weight until rep speed actually begins to slow down so that actin-myosin crossbridges can form. So no, not ALL reps matter. There has to be a struggle to stimulate growth either from using heavier loads or from approaching failure.
    Mechanical tension is maxed out either with maximum contraction speed or maximum load. Muscle fiber recruitment IS the equation. There are 3 ways to get it, repeated effort, maximum effort, speed. If you disagree with any of that you disagree with all of the former Soviet Union Olympic coaches, Louie Simmons, the late Fred Hatfield and the late Mel Siff. ALL work set reps, 60% + matter! I don't train for size. Size is just a nasty side effect of power building. If I eat enough I get bigger.
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    80-85% of a 1 rep max activates all fibers as long as it's more or less a 5 rep max because you can only get about 5-7 stimulating reps in a set depending on whether you're a beginner or elite level but on average it's about 5 reps. Some people have more fast twitch fibers than others and can do 1 to 2 more reps at 85% of their max.
    You're bass-akwards again. 80% of a 1 rep max, an 8 rep max weight, recruits 100% on the very first rep. If someone has more fast twitch fibers they will do FEWER reps not more and the difference doesn't show up until they get into the higher rep ranges, typically above 6 reps. Your statement about cross bridging is correct but you have no idea how to train for speed or what happens when we perform explosive Olympic lifts and their cousins. I'll give you a hint, it's all about the central nervous system. Google Westside Barbell, dynamic effort.
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  8. #38
    4am club health4life24's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Let me ask you this. Where else do studies come from? In these studies, subjects are exposed to real lifting conditions, real lifting experiences with different volumes and loads.

    I go off of studies that ARE based off real experiences. They don't have the be completely separate from experience like black and white.
    Yes but those are the results for those people. It doesn’t mean that anyone else’s results would be the exact same. Studies are simply a guidance to go on...it is not guaranteed to deliver the same results for every trainee out there. That’s why some studies come and go; at one point it was believed to be true but then another study is done that shows different results, etc.

    Have YOU tested your theories out by trying something for a period of at least 8-12 weeks and see what your results are compared to other training methods?
    Last edited by health4life24; 03-25-2020 at 02:13 PM.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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  9. #39
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    Size = volume PERIOD.......so long as the weight is at least 60% of a 1 rep max. 2, fast contraction speed = extremely high mechanical tension, in fact if the speed and loading are correct it will equal 1 rep max force. Define junk volume. EVERY REP COUNTS 'IF' the load on the bar is at least 60% of a 1 rep max.

    Fast contraction speed does NOT equal high mechanical tension, it only equals high motor unit recruitment. In order to have high mechanical tension, you need to have a slow rep speed as a result of producing insufficient force. This is when you're lifting loads of 80%+ or when approaching failure with a lighter weight and rep speed slows as well as deliberately lifting a light weight slowly without going to failure.

    Junk volume is all volume done with 5 or more reps left in reserve each set from failure. If volume=size then I should be building muscle with 100 rep sets.

    https://ibb.co/jLF0gwM
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 04:01 PM.
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  10. #40
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    You're bass-akwards again. 80% of a 1 rep max, an 8 rep max weight, recruits 100% on the very first rep. If someone has more fast twitch fibers they will do FEWER reps not more and the difference doesn't show up until they get into the higher rep ranges, typically above 6 reps. Your statement about cross bridging is correct but you have no idea how to train for speed or what happens when we perform explosive Olympic lifts and their cousins. I'll give you a hint, it's all about the central nervous system. Google Westside Barbell, dynamic effort.
    An 8 rep max is a bit high to recruit all fibers right from the first rep. A 5 rep max would recruit all fibers out of the gate because you can only do 5-7 stimulating reps in a set with 5 applying to most people. And yes, more fast twitch is less reps. I meant to say the only way 80% RM would recruit all fibers is if the individual has more fast twitch, thus only being able to do 5 reps max at 80%.
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  11. #41
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    Mechanical tension is maxed out either with maximum contraction speed or maximum load. Muscle fiber recruitment IS the equation. There are 3 ways to get it, repeated effort, maximum effort, speed. If you disagree with any of that you disagree with all of the former Soviet Union Olympic coaches, Louie Simmons, the late Fred Hatfield and the late Mel Siff. ALL work set reps, 60% + matter! I don't train for size. Size is just a nasty side effect of power building. If I eat enough I get bigger.

    High mechanical tension is either the result of lifting loads of 80%+ or rep speed being slowed down due to fatigue or deliberately lifting a light weight slowly.

    When you purposely lift a light weight slowly, you are recruiting less muscle fibers but placing more mechanical tension on dormant fibers.

    To stimulate growth, you need a combination of high motor recruitment and high mechanical tension.

    https://ibb.co/jLF0gwM

    When rep speed goes up, mechanical tension goes down due to more fibers taking over. When mechanical tension goes up, rep speed goes down due to less fibers taking over (if deliberately lifting slowly).

    Therefore, in order for a light weight to have high mechanical tension, the set has to be taken close to failure where the reps are slow just as they would be lifting a heavy weight.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 04:02 PM.
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  12. #42
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Thanks for editing your initial response 3 hrs later to add the extra paragraph to further educate me on how gaining 20 lbs in 3 months is the ideal way to bulk.

    Do whatever you want, I only respond so newbies who read your lengthy posts about the one right way to do things (oddly a diff theory every week) don't get the wrong idea that you actually know what you're talking about.

    Have fun weighing your Big Macs, nuggets & honey mustard/BBQ sauces - must have a lot stuck in your GI tract.
    I felt bad leaving the ignorant clueless, thought it would be selfish of me not to step back in and do some educating. And brotha there is nothing wrong with that, we are constantly learning.

    I eat 2800 calories a day and I still see my abs after gaining 20lbs. You clearly don't understand how much weight water retention and glycogen adds. Weight can fluctuate by 10lbs as water, glycogen, and GI tract food. When people go keto, they immediately drop 10lbs in a flash due to less carb intake leading to less water retention and glycogen storage.

    And what makes you so sure that just because you respond so that newbies wouldn't get the wrong idea don't actually get the wrong idea? I get that 1500 posts must make you feel like a forum god but there's people here with 10x your post count and are still clueless.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 04:14 PM.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Fast contraction speed does NOT equal high mechanical tension, it only equals high motor unit recruitment. In order to have high mechanical tension, you need to have a slow rep speed as a result of producing insufficient force. This is when you're lifting loads of 80%+ or when approaching failure with a lighter weight and rep speed slows as well as deliberately lifting a light weight slowly without going to failure.

    Junk volume is all volume done with 5 or more reps left in reserve each set from failure. If volume=size then I should be building muscle with 100 rep sets.

    https://ibb.co/jLF0gwM
    Fast contraction speed = maximum tension for every fiber responding.
    Deload weeks aren't junk volume.
    Anything less than 60% intensity is a warmup set.
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    Fast contraction speed = maximum tension for every fiber responding.
    Deload weeks aren't junk volume.
    Anything less than 60% intensity is a warmup set.
    I even underlined it for you. https://ibb.co/q92yCm2

    Fast contraction speed=high motor recruitment. Not tension.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    An 8 rep max is a bit high to recruit all fibers right from the first rep. A 5 rep max would recruit all fibers out of the gate because you can only do 5-7 stimulating reps in a set with 5 applying to most people. And yes, more fast twitch is less reps. I meant to say the only way 80% RM would recruit all fibers is if the individual has more fast twitch, thus only being able to do 5 reps max at 80%.
    And yet the science says you are wrong. 80%. Period. It's been tested to death. Google scholar! I DID NOT SAY they were recruited at their maximum firing rate. 3 sets of 5 at 80% and the last 2 reps of each set poke Mr. CNS in the eye with a sharp stick.....especially the last set. If I really want to trip the breakers I'll go with 3 sets of 3 at 85% or 3 sets of 2 at 90%. I wont last more that a few weeks doing that but I've done it before to force the issue. Lastly a 1x5 rep max is about 87%. I've run Bill Starr's 5x5 many, many times. I know that number by heart.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I even underlined it for you. https://ibb.co/q92yCm2

    Fast contraction speed=high motor recruitment. Not tension.
    Notice that as the velocity increases so does tension. You should have read it before you linked it!
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    Having a discussion is one thing but when you start calling people ignorant and claiming to have to educate them is when it goes too far. There's enough negativity, don't bring more to the table.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    And yet the science says you are wrong. 80%. Period. It's been tested to death. Google scholar! I DID NOT SAY they were recruited at their maximum firing rate. 3 sets of 5 at 80% and the last 2 reps of each set poke Mr. CNS in the eye with a sharp stick.....especially the last set. If I really want to trip the breakers I'll go with 3 sets of 3 at 85% or 3 sets of 2 at 90%. I wont last more that a few weeks doing that but I've done it before to force the issue. Lastly a 1x5 rep max is about 87%. I've run Bill Starr's 5x5 many, many times. I know that number by heart.
    In an 8 rep max set, the first few reps are still pretty easy because contraction speed is fast. So only reps 3-8 would be stimulating since 5 reps is the most stimulating reps you can do in a set for most people.

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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    Having a discussion is one thing but when you start calling people ignorant and claiming to have to educate them is when it goes too far. There's enough negativity, don't bring more to the table.

    Lol you're delusional. And yeah ok, says the negative one himself. You sound butthurt, I know the truth hurts. Didn't know people were such snowflakes around here. Gonna cry about that one too now? If I sat around being a keyboard warrior with 12,000 posts, I'd feel the same way.
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 04:35 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    In an 8 rep max set, the first few reps are still pretty easy because contraction speed is fast. So only reps 3-8 would be stimulating since 5 reps is the most stimulating reps you can do in a set for most people.

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    Stimulating? Try it then will talk about it in a few days when you can move your arms and legs again!
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    Stimulating? Try it then will talk about it in a few days when you can move your arms and legs again!
    You keep missing the point. I'm saying the last 5 reps to failure are considered stimulating because that's when rep speed starts slowing down. 12 rep set? Reps 7-12 are stimulating. 20 rep set? Reps 15-20 are stimulating. Stopping the set too early in these rep ranges produce little to no growth.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Lol you're delusional. And yeah ok, says the negative one himself. You sound butthurt, I know the truth hurts. Didn't know people were such snowflakes around here. Gonna cry about that one too now?
    I have nothing to be negative or upset about.

    Carry on...
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    I have nothing to be negative or upset about.

    Carry on...
    Ok, batman. Explain yourself to me some more.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Ok, batman. Explain yourself to me some more.
    I’m sure you’ll do enough explaining for the both of us. If not this week then with next week’s study.
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    I’m sure you’ll do enough explaining for the both of us. If not this week then with next week’s study.
    Lol, you know you're butthurt when every post ends with a smiley as if it's some cherry on top. It's all good man. I get that your fragile ego is protected by 12,000 posts. Me personally, I could care less. I keep it 100 here. People can either take it or leave it
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Lol, you know you're butthurt when every post ends with a smiley as if it's some cherry on top. It's all good man. I get that your fragile ego is protected by 12,000 posts. Me personally, I could care less. I keep it 100 here. People can either take it or leave it
    I've got nineteen thousand eight hundred seven. I win!
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Lol, you know you're butthurt when every post ends with a smiley as if it's some cherry on top. It's all good man. I get that your fragile ego is protected by 12,000 posts. Me personally, I could care less. I keep it 100 here. People can either take it or leave it
    LOL okay bro. Do you really think I give a damn about ego on an Internet forum? And everyone here is just keeping it one hundred percent real with you. Look around. You’re the only one arguing with everyone trying to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

    Most people post a study to give people the opportunity to read it and chime in their opinion. You post a study and claim that your way is the only way that works and that everybody should follow suit.

    See the problem? Maybe if you posted a study and asked people their opinions and thoughts and didn’t try to force it in their face that what you’re saying is fact people would respond differently and we could have a more constructive discussion.

    What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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    Originally Posted by all pro View Post
    I've got nineteen thousand eight hundred seven. I win!
    Disagree. You're not as big as a snowflakes he is, sorry.
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    Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    LOL okay bro. Do you really think I give a damn about ego on an Internet forum? And everyone here is just keeping it one hundred percent real with you. Look around. You’re the only one arguing with everyone trying to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

    Most people post a study to give people the opportunity to read it and chime in their opinion. You post a study and claim that your way is the only way that works and that everybody should follow suit.

    See the problem? Maybe if you posted a study and asked people their opinions and thoughts and didn’t try to force it in their face that what you’re saying is fact people would respond differently and we could have a more constructive discussion.

    What exactly are you trying to accomplish here?

    Uh oh there he is now with the "bro"!

    That's just your insecurity talking. Sorry that facts don't care about your feelings.

    What are your thoughts on 2+2=4?
    Last edited by Animal2692; 03-25-2020 at 05:14 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Uh oh there he is now! That's just your insecurity talking.
    Is that the best you got?

    Can’t wait to see what next week’s study is going to bring. You better do you research and not disappoint us!
    - Your mindset influences your outcome. It's time to take out phrases like "I can't" or "I don't have time" and replace them with phrases like "I will make the time" and "I will keep working at it until I find a way that works." Success starts with the right mindset and believing in yourself and your dreams.
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