Only the last reps count in moderate-high rep ranges

[all pro]

You keep missing the point. I'm saying the last 5 reps to failure are considered stimulating because that's when rep speed starts slowing down. 12 rep set? Reps 7-12 are stimulating. 20 rep set? Reps 15-20 are stimulating. Stopping the set too early in these rep ranges produce little to no growth.

Well then for a 12 rep set just skip the first 6 reps and for a 20 rep set skip the first 15 reps. There, problem solved.

[Animal2692]

Is that the best you got?

Can’t wait to see what next week’s study is going to bring. You better do you research and not disappoint us!

I know you're hungry for knowledge and I like that. But for now, class is dismissed.

[Animal2692]

Well then for a 12 rep set just skip the first 6 reps and for a 20 rep set skip the first 15 reps. There, problem solved.

Obviously you can't skip the first 6 reps and you need to go through them to get to those last hard ones. But I still can't say all reps matter. All reps matter only when you are going close to failure. If you're gonna leave 5+ reps in the tank then forget about it. I want everyone to be pushing those home workout sets while quarantined alright!?

[air2fakie]

I felt bad leaving the ignorant clueless, thought it would be selfish of me not to step back in and do some educating. And brotha there is nothing wrong with that, we are constantly learning.

I eat 2800 calories a day and I still see my abs after gaining 20lbs. You clearly don't understand how much weight water retention and glycogen adds. Weight can fluctuate by 10lbs as water, glycogen, and GI tract food. When people go keto, they immediately drop 10lbs in a flash due to less carb intake leading to less water retention and glycogen storage.

And what makes you so sure that just because you respond so that newbies wouldn't get the wrong idea don't actually get the wrong idea? I get that 1500 posts must make you feel like a forum god but there's people here with 10x your post count and are still clueless.

OP, you'll never see me telling everyone that my approach is the best and that anyone who does something else is doing it wrong. And in your case, every week you have a new program that you think is the best way to do it.

Add a laxative to your diet so you & your GI tract will be less full of s***.

[Animal2692]

OP, you'll never see me telling everyone that my approach is the best and that anyone who does something else is doing it wrong. And in your case, every week you have a new program that you think is the best way to do it.

Add a laxative to your diet so you & your GI tract will be less full of s***.

That's where you're wrong. I don't share approaches, I only share facts. If I say 2+2=4 and it can't be anything else, why get upset about that? It's a fact. You're going to cry that facts don't ask for your opinion? That means I can say progressive overload isn't the only way to build muscle. Swimming underwater is.

If you don't go close to failure with a moderate to light weight, you're wasting time. That is a fact and facts don't care what you think. You'll have to do more sets with the same weight until you build up enough cumulative fatigue that it finally becomes challenging. You guys are constantly trying to run away from the facts instead of manning up and facing them. Or maybe ya'll know exactly what I'm talking about but don't like the way I deliver it and again, that's a personal issue. If you can't handle someone giving it to you straight on a forum, then you can't handle life because life gonna give it to you straight till your last breath.

If you actually lift, you'd know that there's no way around it other than to go through it. If you trained as hard as you act, you'd might have a clue.

There is a right and wrong way when it comes to doing many things. Who ever told you there wasn't when growing up fed you a sugarcoated lie. That's what's wrong with people these days. They wanna see everything through rose colored glasses and when they lose those glasses they start ******** themselves.

And buying out all the toilet paper.

[air2fakie]

OP, how many times are you going to repeatedly edit the same replies to add more digs after you initially post them?

That's where you're wrong. I don't share approaches, I only share facts. ... You're going to cry that facts don't ask for your opinion? ... There is a right and wrong way when it comes to doing many things.

Actually you share your opinion in your posts but think anything you say is an absolute fact, and that any other opinions or approaches to working out are wrong if they don't align with your opinion for any given week.

Thanks for the factual education in consistent programming and dieting the last couple of months.

Got this idea from Eric Helms who trains full body 5x a week and Jeff Nippard recently started doing the same as well. ... if someone was training 6x a week doing PPL, they'd be better off doing full body 6x a week doing a few quality sets at a time for each muscle every workout.

Not a big fan of bro splits here. An Upper/Lower 4x a week hitting each muscle 2x a week would be better imo. More opportunities to grow, plus higher quality workouts.

The context being that full body is better than other routines because you can spread volume much better. Sure there are lots of ways to make gains, but certain ways are better than others. If you're an individual with many options available to you, why not pick the option that's most optimal? ... Take PPL for example. You asked me if I've done PPL, no I haven't.

I also wanted to add that I see many people especially here constantly mentioning and touting "everyone is different". I feel like more often than not, that's just used as a cop out to get away from what actually works.

You don't focus on adding weight or reps at a specific rate. If you're adapting, you simply do more reps or use more weight naturally without thinking about it with the constant focus on still taking sets to the limit.

Guys, got a problem here. So I started leaning down.... I should be in the 120s by now but I'm not seeing it. ... at a 1000 calorie deficit, so I've been eating 1300 this whole time.

So last night while working out, I was feeling kind of down about my progress. The amount of reps I do for pull ups, dips, pistol squats, etc. have stayed relatively the same over the past 3 months without adding any weight to my exercises either. I kept thinking man this just isn't working. Then I realized, I gained 20lbs in 3 months when I started bulking up right after cutting.

[TolerantLactose]

It took a while, but the latest Professor Nub has finally cracked.

[Animal2692]

OP, how many times are you going to repeatedly edit the same replies to add more digs after you initially post them?



Actually you share your opinion in your posts but think anything you say is an absolute fact, and that any other opinions or approaches to working out are wrong if they don't align with your opinion for any given week.

Thanks for the factual education in consistent programming and dieting the last couple of months.

Cry more about how I edit my posts.

Officer air2fakie hard at work here trying to investigate me by going through my old threads. When I prove him wrong, he turns to sheer pettiness like that bitter ex girlfriend we all have. Pretty sure if I did the same investigating I'd have a ball with what I'd find.

That part you quoted me on where I mention upper lower is better than bro splits by providing more growth opportunities is 100% absolute fact.

The other part you quoted of me saying that it's a copout more often than not when people day they're different is absolutely true as well. You see it everywhere and those in denial will keep denying

The other part you quoted where I said full body is better than other routines because it spreads volume better is fact as well. Me mentioning there are better ways to make gains than others is another fact.

I see nothing but you bringing up facts that I've mentioned. They're not even my opinion, it's just the way things are. You constantly feeling like I always think everything I say is a fact and all other opinions are wrong is your insecurity talking.

Guess at the end of the day we shouldn't think 2+2=4 is absolutely true either. Man, I want some of that good good stuff your on right now.

[Animal2692]

It took a while, but the latest Professor Nub has finally cracked.

You're one of those people who bought out all the toilet paper. Don't lie now

[air2fakie]

Officer air2fakie hard at work here trying to investigate me by going through my old threads.

Those were your most recent posts, takes a second to click "View Forum Posts" to find them. Nice job editing your reply multiple times again over the next 20 minutes, how many times do you re-read them?

Pretty sure if I did the same investigating I'd have a ball with what I'd find.

You'd find I just answer people's Qs but if it'd be that much fun for you, go for it.

That part you quoted me on where I mention upper lower is better than bro splits by providing more growth opportunities is 100% absolute fact. ...
The other part you quoted where I said full body is better than other routines because it spreads volume better is fact as well.

How's your 6-day full body working out for you? Gaining 20 lbs in 3 months with no progression on your lifts?

Note I mentioned consistency above, that's why your UL post was included, because a week later after you decided to switch to a FB routine, you're bashing UL and decreeing that high frequency full body is the only right way to work out, and that anyone who trains legs only 2x/week in a UL and PPL are copping out.

what I do know is, cramming half your weekly volume on a leg day of PPL, is pretty tough compared to spreading it out over 4 days. Leg day on PPL is no different than lower day on an upper/lower split which I HAVE done for a while. You're training legs 2x a week in both instances.

[Animal2692]

Those were your most recent posts, takes a second to click "View Forum Posts" to find them. Nice job editing your reply multiple times again over the next 20 minutes, how many times do you re-read them?



You'd find I just answer people's Qs but if it'd be that much fun for you, go for it.



How's your 6-day full body working out for you? Gaining 20 lbs in 3 months with no progression on your lifts?

Note I mentioned consistency above, that's why your UL post was included, because a week later after you decided to switch to a FB routine, you're bashing UL and decreeing that high frequency full body is the only right way to work out, and that anyone who trains legs only 2x/week in a UL and PPL are copping out.

Doing the same reps when only doing bodyweight exercises after gaining 20lbs is progress. If you've ever done pull ups, pistol squats, ring dips, you'd understand. And you saying that 20lbs in 3 months got fat quickly for someone who came out of a long cut is hogwash and you're misleading newbies on here. If you knew anything about water retention and glycogen storage, you'd know weight can fluctuate by 10lbs. My wife lost 10lbs in a week doing keto for example. It's not all fat, it's mostly water, glycogen, and less food. You cant lose or gain that much fat in a week even if you tried.

I'm 5'8" at 150. When I cut down, I was at 130lbs eating 1200 calories a day. I immediately shot up to 2800 calories to lean bulk since maintenance is at 2500. You do not gain fat if you immediately even shoot up to your new maintenance calories after cutting either. All the fast weight gain people experience is in the form of water, food, and glycogen. Ever since those first 10lbs, my weight gain has been slow and steady week to week. You say you want to help newbies out, all I see is someone trying to argue some facts with me because their ego can't take me being right at only 320 posts. You can drink half a gallon of water right at once which is equal to 4lbs for example. What are you smoking???

And I didn't say full body is the only way to workout. I said it's more effective because it spreads volume better if doing north of 20 sets per muscle per week. Take it from Eric Helms whose actually got a PhD in this stuff. I've realized that for me personally, either full body or UL are fine because my total working sets per week is 12 so I went back to an UL split. If I split that 12 set weekly volume down exactly in half, it still has me at 6 sets in a session before I start hitting junk volume. But if someone has to spread 20 working sets, then full body done 3 to 5 times a week would be better at that than UL.

I'm always after what's most effective. Just because other ways work, doesn't mean that there aren't more effective ways. This has been proven over and over where one person does things differently compared to someone else and makes faster gains such as eating in a surplus as opposed to recomping with maintenance. Bro splits have been proven that they're not as effective as full body and UL splits for naturals because of workout quality and muscle protein synthesis duration. If you're gonna sit here and tell me that's not true, then you're putting invalid information out there for newbies.

[TolerantLactose]

I knew a guy who progressively overloaded so much, doctors had to amputate his toes.

[air2fakie]

Are you ever able to get your thoughts out in the first go without having to making 10 edits to the same reply? Do you literally just keep reading it over and over to try to make yourself sound smarter?

Doing the same reps when only doing bodyweight exercises after gaining 20lbs is progress. If you've ever done pull ups, pistol squats, ring dips, you'd understand.

I do understand that bodyweight exercises are harder when you gain 20 lbs in 3 months. They make weighted vests and belts to hang plates from so you don't have to rely on poor nutrition for progressive overload. You might want to buy one before your progression scheme has you 80 lbs heavier by year-end.

I guess if you can't increase any of your lifts no matter how hard you try, the solution is to stop lifting weights and switch to all bodyweight exercises so when you still don't progress, you can't say it's because you've gained 20 lbs in 3 months. Please educate me some more from your proven successes.

Anyways, EVEN with the surplus and the high protein and rest, I STILL can hardly progress and it’s so frustrating because my numbers are absolute dirt relative to my genetic ceiling. ... I should be able to add weight every WEEK at least. Not every workout but at least every week. I can’t even do that let alone a rep. Not even my squat and deadlift want to budge even though they’re the biggest movements, it makes no sense. ... It’s as if hard work, consistency, rest, and eating right is a lie.

[Animal2692]

Are you ever able to get your thoughts out in the first go without having to making 10 edits to the same reply? Do you literally just keep reading it over and over to try to make yourself sound smarter?



I do understand that bodyweight exercises are harder when you gain 20 lbs in 3 months. They make weighted vests and belts to hang plates from so you don't have to rely on poor nutrition for progressive overload. You might want to buy one before your progression scheme has you 80 lbs heavier by year-end.

I guess if you can't increase any of your lifts no matter how hard you try, the solution is to switch to all bodyweight exercises so when you still don't progress, you can't say it's because you've gained 20 lbs in 3 months. Please educate me some more from your proven successes.

Looks like me editing my posts got you triggered because that's all you keep bringing up like a broken record. Do I need to give you a tissue the next time I hear you whining about me editing my post?

It's not poor nutrition, what are you smoking? Do you not understand that 10lbs in a week bulking right after a long cut is perfectly normal? That leaves me with 10 actual pounds of solid mass gained over 3 months essentially. That's 3.3lbs of solid mass each month aka lean bulk. The first 10lbs dont count as fat due to water retention, glycogen, and food. Do you know that 10lbs of fat in a week is equal to a 5000 calorie surplus since 1lb of fat is 3500 calories? If you're gonna sit here and say that's not true then you really dont know.

And that post was forever ago when I was still learning how to do things right and change my expectations. You're weak for even trying to use that as your argument lol.

[air2fakie]

Looks like me editing my posts really bothers you because that's all you keep bringing up like a broken record.

I tried to be considerate and let you finish your 10 rounds of edits before replying before, but of course you snuck another in there at the last second. You've prob edited this one 5x by the time I reply.

Do you not understand that 10lbs in a week bulking right after a long cut is perfectly normal? That leaves me with 10 actual pounds of solid mass gained over 3 months essentially. That's 3.3lbs of solid mass each month aka lean bulk. The first 10lbs dont count as fat due to water retention, glycogen, and food. Do you know that 10lbs of fat in a week is equal to a 5000 calorie surplus since 1lb of fat is 3500 calories? If you're gonna sit here and say that's not true then you really dont know.

When you were lifting weights you made zero progress. Then you switched to bodyweight exercises and made no progress. Now you justify that it's great progress because you gained 20 lbs in 3 months in "lean bulk", none of which counts as fat. I'd hate to see what your concept of a "dirty bulk" is.

[Animal2692]

I tried to be considerate and let you finish your 10 rounds of edits before replying before, but of course you snuck another in there at the last second. You've prob edited this one 5x by the time I reply.



When you were lifting weights you made zero progress. Then you switched to bodyweight exercises and made no progress. Now you justify that it's great progress because you gained 20 lbs in 3 months in "lean bulk", none of which counts as fat. I'd hate to see what your concept of a "dirty bulk" is.

Dang, I didnt know me editing my posts has such an impact on you. Is that gonna hurt your feelings too?

Youre using an example when I didnt know what I was doing lol because that was so far back, I haven't lifted weights since 2018. Might as well sit here and tell me that at 10 years old I couldn't bench 225. You clearly have never cut or bulked a day in your life to know how water retention and other factors leading to weight gain work. First 10lbs in a week was hardly any fat. After that initial rapid weight gain, I gained another 10lbs over 3 months. Never said none of that counted as fat. I said its 3.3lbs of mass per month. Mass can be fat or muscle. In this case it was about 1.8lbs muscle and 1.1lbs of fat. Another thousand post warrior giving advice with nothing to show for it.

[air2fakie]

Youre using an example when I didnt know what I was doing lol because that was so far back, I haven't lifted weights since 2018.

So you've made no progress since even before you stopped lifting weights in 2018? Or did you also not know what you were doing last week? Time flies when you never make any progress except on your bathroom scale, and when your opinion in the current week is the only one that matters.

So last night while working out, I was feeling kind of down about my progress. The amount of reps I do for pull ups, dips, pistol squats, etc. have stayed relatively the same over the past 3 months without adding any weight to my exercises either. I kept thinking man this just isn't working. Then I realized, I gained 20lbs in 3 months when I started bulking up right after cutting.

And yeah you dug something up from 6 days ago, it's March 24th today and you're here living about a week in the past.

[Animal2692]

when your opinion in the current week is the only one that matters.

Something a snowflake would say. Insecure much? If being called a snowflake is an insult, you'd be an even bigger snowflake.

[air2fakie]

Something a snowflake would say. Insecure much? If being called a snowflake is an insult, you'd be an even bigger snowflake.

Clearly, I think I better go get a giant tattoo of a lion's head on my left pec tomorrow. That should fix my insecurities. Good night, happy bulking!

[TheShadowMan]

I'm just speculating/giving my own opinion here, but i'd say the final few reps seem to have the most importance when you're taking the set to failure, or really close to it. Cause during a failure set, going by how your muscle feels and responds to the set, is vital. So, you really have to keep a close eye on your level of soreness and fatigue, and those last reps in the set is when you really start to notice that fatigue setting in. So as far as monitoring your own performance when you train, I could see them being crucial; but as far as overall results - I would not imagine it's definitely the last few that are the end all be all determination of the quality of results you'll receive. I also think that it's the first set that reaps the most benefits because the muscle is fresh and rested; and each following set provides close to but a progressively diminishing amount of returns compared to the set before it. Just a theory though.

[Animal2692]

Clearly, I think I better go get a giant tattoo of a lion's head on my left pec tomorrow. That should fix my insecurities. Good night, happy bulking!

You wouldn't have a pec to get much of a lions head tatted on anyways

[Animal2692]

I'm just speculating/giving my own opinion here, but i'd say the final few reps seem to have the most importance when you're taking the set to failure, or really close to it. Cause during a failure set, going by how your muscle feels and responds to the set, is vital. So, you really have to keep a close eye on your level of soreness and fatigue, and those last reps in the set is when you really start to notice that fatigue setting in. So as far as monitoring your own performance when you train, I could see them being crucial; but as far as overall results - I would not imagine it's definitely the last few that are the end all be all determination of the quality of results you'll receive. I also think that it's the first set that reaps the most benefits because the muscle is fresh and rested; and each following set provides close to but a progressively diminishing amount of returns compared to the set before it. Just a theory though.

Not even a theory, what you said is fact because it has been proven. The last few reps are crucial but they aren't the end all be all determination of quality results you'll receive just like you said because there's many other factors involved too such as volume, frequency, etc. But since they are crucial, giving those reps the attention they deserve, improves results.

And yes, the first set offers the most benefits and each set after offers diminishing returns. If I say the same thing you just said, people start getting bent out of shape because in their minds, facts don't exist. But the truth is facts exist with or without them. Some people here want me to say, "in my opinion 2+2=4". I say screw that, 2+2=4 and that's the way it always has been and always will be whether you like it or not because I didnt make that up.

Finally someone with common sense up in this joint.

[Animal2692]

I knew a guy who progressively overloaded so much, doctors had to amputate his toes.

Did you eat your toes back to grow them out all over again?

[health4life24]

Not every set after the first one necessarily offers diminishing returns. It depends largely I think on how you set up your rep scheme / progression.

For example on compounds I tend to do 5-8 sets. Most of my training is done using a pyramid rep scheme.

And the first 3-4 sets of 8-15 reps are what get me ready to be able to lift more weight on the last couple sets when pushing a 6, 3, and 1 rep max. So the opposite of diminishing returns is happening.

Likewise if I do the reverse and start with a 1-3 rep max and work up to higher reps with lighter weight, I have found that I can actually push out more reps with the lighter weight after the first 3 or so heavy sets than if I started with the lighter weight initially. Again, opposite of diminishing returns.

Now maybe if you’re doing straight sets like 3 or 4 sets of 8-10 or a 5x5, it might be different.

But you have to factor in how someone is setting up their reps and sets.

Again, it isn’t exactly cut and dry.

[Animal2692]

Not every set after the first one necessarily offers diminishing returns. It depends largely I think on how you set up your rep scheme / progression.

For example on compounds I tend to do 5-8 sets. Most of my training is done using a pyramid rep scheme.

And the first 3-4 sets of 8-15 reps are what get me ready to be able to lift more weight on the last couple sets when pushing a 6, 3, and 1 rep max. So the opposite of diminishing returns is happening.

Likewise if I do the reverse and start with a 1-3 rep max and work up to higher reps with lighter weight, I have found that I can actually push out more reps with the lighter weight after the first 3 or so heavy sets than if I started with the lighter weight initially. Again, opposite of diminishing returns.

Now maybe if you’re doing straight sets like 3 or 4 sets of 8-10 or a 5x5, it might be different.

But you have to factor in how someone is setting up their reps and sets.

Again, it isn’t exactly cut and dry.

You're thinking of diminishing returns in the context of performance. I'm referring to diminishing returns in the context of stimulating growth/protein synthesis regardless of rep schemes. You're not going to do 50 pyramid sets now are you because there's only so much work that can be done to stimulate the most amount of growth possible in that session. In the case of pyramid sets, diminishing returns would only begin after the first working set whether that's what you start off with or end with. T

[Animal2692]

To look out for diminishing returns, I count the amount of stimulating reps I do for a muscle in a session and that number is around 25 according to research where protein synthesis is maximized. If I do 4 sets pyramiding upwards with 5 or more reps in reserve on the first 3 sets, and do 4-5 reps to failure or with a heavy weight on the top set, then I would have only gotten 4-5 stimulating reps out of those 4 sets. That's why I dont pyramid or do straight sets because of the inefficiency of having to do more sets and spend more time working out from leaving too many reps in reserve. Instead I would do 4 sets with each set taken close to failure which gets me 16 or so stimulating reps. In actuality I do 6 sets close to failure in a session for a muscle using just one exercise.

So my upper day consists of 6 sets of ring dips supersetted with 6 sets of ring pull ups all close to failure. And for the second upper day that week I do 6 sets of handstand/pike push ups supersetted with 6 sets of inverted ring rows. If I have to drop my weight vest or switch to an easier variation to keep the reps above 5, I go ahead and do just that and it's still effective. What I've been starting to find is that as I'm getting stronger, I end up being able to do more sets with the same exercise or weight on my vest and more reps each set. It's pretty convenient because I just autoregulate it and go by proximity to failure. I dont keep track of reps unless I'm starting to climb up to 15 in a set. I try to keep them around 10-12 max with 5 being the lowest. 6 sets taken close to failure, that's about 24 effective reps, close enough to 25.

If other people do it differently that's good for them. At this point it's not so much about my way or your way, it's more a matter of what's most efficient. Technically there's an even MORE efficient way than how I do it and that's if you do like 5 drop sets each close to failure but with all that fatigue and doing a compound movement, I wouldn't say it's practical. I just try to keep it somewhere in the middle where I'm not having to drop weight so much or do so many sets either to achieve the same result.

[all pro]

You're thinking of diminishing returns in the context of performance. I'm referring to diminishing returns in the context of stimulating growth/protein synthesis regardless of rep schemes. You're not going to do 50 pyramid sets now are you because there's only so much work that can be done to stimulate the most amount of growth possible in that session. In the case of pyramid sets, diminishing returns would only begin after the first working set whether that's what you start off with or end with. T

Read it and weep genius. https://www.t-nation.com/training/wa...ximum-strength

[Animal2692]

Read it and weep genius. https://www.t-nation.com/training/wa...ximum-strength

There is a point of diminishing returns in any workout despite the rep scheme, volume, or progression. Otherwise we'd train for 12 hours a day.

[all pro]

There is a point of diminishing returns in any workout despite the rep scheme, volume, or progression. Otherwise we'd train for 12 hours a day.

Some people can train for 2 hours per workout. Some can't handle 1 hour. It depends upon the volume, intensity and the individual. Stop making blanket statements and you wont look so stupid.

[Animal2692]

Some people can train for 2 hours per workout. Some can't handle 1 hour. It depends upon the volume, intensity and the individual. Stop making blanket statements and you wont look so stupid.

Lol saying I look stupid is like a dog who can't reach the meat on the kitchen counter saying it smells bad.

We were talking about diminishing returns and you're here using strawman arguments how some people being able to train 2 hours vs. 1. I get that the emotions are clouding your judgement here but if you bear with me, what I'm saying is logic.The element of diminishing returns exists in every workout for everyone regardless of fitness levels and individual differences.

Might as well go ahead and say that I'm making a blanket statement by me saying we are all homosapiens. I think the only reason you bring up me looking stupid is because you're afraid that you're the one who may look that way.

Me: you need oxygen to survive
You: stop passing off your opinions as if they're the absolute truth