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  1. #601
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    Anti-Maskers. Never have seen that until here.
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  2. #602
    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    The cases in my state just continue, they got higher even with all the masks and single file children directions of arrows and distance markers and bumper tables.

    The Governor does not appear to be going by a down curve, but only what the NY Governor is doing. He follows NY every move on the same day. NY starts Phase 1, MD starts phase 1.

    I'd rather phase 1 than no phase, but damn this don't make any sense?
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  3. #603
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    It's just funny because I know for a fact he doesn't follow the letter of the law. He does it because he doesn't think certain laws are just or right. I don't think compulsory face covering are just or right, so he should be able to understand the "why".
    Bando has been trolling for a while. Its not just the booze.

    I am 99% sure that the government passed anti-marijuana laws to protect us. Maybe cops should bash in the heads of dope smoking drunks.
    Last edited by eomrat; 05-22-2020 at 08:01 AM.
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  4. #604
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    Unless it is a properly fitted N95 the virus is small enough to go through a mask, or sucked in through gaps. However, if someone with the virus coughs or sneezes while wearing a mask it will block droplets and reduce (not stop) the distance the virus will radiate.
    So if I cough or sneeze in my sleeve as I have always done since I was a child, I shouldn't need to wear a mask.
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  5. #605
    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    So if I cough or sneeze in my sleeve as I have always done since I was a child, I shouldn't need to wear a mask.

    That's better than nothing, but I'd say a hankie is best, sneeze into it, fold that sucker and put back yo pocket? Grampa used to do that, common sense days gone bye.
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  6. #606
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    That's better than nothing, but I'd say a hankie is best, sneeze into it, fold that sucker and put back yo pocket? Grampa used to do that, common sense days gone bye.
    My dad would never be caught without a fabric handkerchief if his pocket. It was part of getting dressed, if he was putting slacks on, he would put a new hankie in his pant pocket automatically. Grew up with my mom ironing towers of hankies.
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  7. #607
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  8. #608
    Registered User LWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Grew up with my mom ironing towers of hankies.

    Biden's possible running mate will certainly have an issue with this
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  9. #609
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    So if I cough or sneeze in my sleeve as I have always done since I was a child, I shouldn't need to wear a mask.
    Correct, unfortunately we can't count on everyone to behave responsibly.

    I have a niece that is working at a grocery store. Some old lady coughs in her hand, and then proceeds to put her hand down on the checkout counter.
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  10. #610
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Just looked closer at that. WTF LOL. Global suicide deaths top over 1 million people every year, drug deaths account for over half a million deaths yearly and global deaths related to alcohol are well over 3 million deaths.

    Elron, do you mind posting the article you got that chart from?
    The chart's source is displayed right there on the chart itself, and if you click on the image, it shows you the link. As NG says in his inimitable way, it comes from the Economist, with numbers taken from the World Health Organization. While you're getting your panties all in a knot about the numbers, you might want to take a second look at the chart, which provides the fatalities PER WEEK, while you're whining about it not matching your totally unattributed numbers per year. Some of you folks need to learn how to read.

    Like the WHO's numbers or hate 'em, at least they do have an attribution. No telling which orifice you pulled yours from .
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  11. #611
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post

    Many disease' have an exponential rate of spread, the flu does. You are obviously just using exponential as a loaded term. I think protective measures have helped, just not the ones issues by the government. In fact, mitigation efforts by the government have HURT a lot of people.
    Wait, a few posts up you said there was no evidence of exponential spread, I show you a chart that illustrates otherwise and you say it's a common occurrence after all. Difference between COVID19 and the flu: the flu usually can be vaccinated against, it has a known seasonal pattern, and a predictable course. This is a new disease, there's no vaccine on the horizon, treatments are still somewhat conjectural, and even the mode of transmission, as these discussions make obvious, is poorly understood. I'm not disputing that overreaction can be harmful. But nobody really knows yet where the boundary lies between overreacting and underreacting. All the "nongovernment" protective measures you think have helped so far have actually been distributed by the government. And while some of the shutdown measures have almost certainly been over the top, I don't think there's a legitimate argument to be made against the conclusion that taken as a whole, they have slowed the spread.

    I have no idea where you're going with this. I have no idea what you have against wearing masks. I have no idea how you are equating advocating wearing a mask and advocating drinking bleach. Tilting at windmills on this one bruh... it was a funny and harmless meme.
    Where the hell did you get the idea that I'm against wearing masks? Everything I've posted has argued the exact opposite. If you think my criticism of your analogy was because I'm opposed to wearing masks, you're quite mistaken. My criticism was based on the fact that it's a misleading analogy, and actually makes masks appear less effective than they actually are.
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  12. #612
    Registered User acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    Wait, a few posts up you said there was no evidence of exponential spread
    I said exponential rise in deaths to your insinuation of a current rise in deaths. You explained you meant from the beginning...

    I show you a chart that illustrates otherwise and you say it's a common occurrence after all.
    ... to which I stated many diseases have an exponential infection spread. That's what the R0 factor is. Anything over an R0 of 1 is exponential. Many diseases have an r0 greater than 1. The use of exponential was sensationalist, as was the insinuation of your chart saying covid kills more than drugs and alcohol which isn't even remotely accurate. Again, would like to see the article you pulled that from for context.

    Difference between COVID19 and the flu: the flu usually can be vaccinated against, it has a known seasonal pattern, and a predictable course. This is a new disease, there's no vaccine on the horizon, treatments are still somewhat conjectural, and even the mode of transmission, as these discussions make obvious, is poorly understood. I'm not disputing that overreaction can be harmful. But nobody really knows yet where the boundary lies between overreacting and underreacting.
    The boundry is very clear. We have rights. Impeding on those is overreaching and an overreaction.

    All the "nongovernment" protective measures you think have helped so far have actually been distributed by the government. And while some of the shutdown measures have almost certainly been over the top, I don't think there's a legitimate argument to be made against the conclusion that taken as a whole, they have slowed the spread.
    I think as a whole personal responsibility and the spread of information (by government or otherwise) has helped greatly. I'm not saying the government shouldn't be involved, I'm saying they shouldn't impede on rights.


    Where the hell did you get the idea that I'm against wearing masks? Everything I've posted has argued the exact opposite. If you think my criticism of your analogy is because I'm opposed to wearing masks, you're quite mistaken. My criticism was based on the fact that it's a misleading analogy, and actually makes masks appear less effective than they actually are.
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the analogy. It's funny and relatively accurate. What could possibly be misleading about it?



    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    The chart's source is displayed right there on the chart itself, and if you click on the image, it shows you the link. As NG says in his inimitable way, it comes from the Economist, with numbers taken from the World Health Organization. While you're getting your panties all in a knot about the numbers, you might want to take a second look at the chart, which provides the fatalities PER WEEK, while you're whining about it not matching your totally unattributed numbers per year. Some of you folks need to learn how to read.

    Like the WHO's numbers or hate 'em, at least they do have an attribution. No telling which orifice you pulled yours from .
    This was your response to my polite request to see the source? But nah, don't bother posting your source, after all it is YOUR source. Instead just insinuate I'm stupid... that's helpful. I saw that it was by week and why I asked for context. Even crunching the numbers, the math is OBVIOUSLY questionable. So instead of being an @ss, you could have politely laid the source out so we could talk about it. You wanna try again or Nah?





    edit the link only goes to the source photo, not the actual article....

    Edit, LOL unattributed. Drug and alcohol related deaths are widely published. Would you like a few dozen sources? Here's one from the WHO since you mentioned them. 3.3 million global deaths and over 5% of cause of disease (mentioned in forward) yearly. FYI that's about 9000 a day... every day.

    https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/...014_1.pdf?ua=1
    Last edited by acrawlingchaos; 05-22-2020 at 07:15 PM.
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    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Just found out my back-up gym is open. Masks are not required. Social distancing is encouraged.

    Hours limited from 5AM to 10PM.
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  14. #614
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    I said exponential rise in deaths to your insinuation of a current rise in deaths. You explained you meant from the beginning...

    ... to which I stated many diseases have an exponential infection spread. That's what the R0 factor is. Anything over an R0 of 1 is exponential. Many diseases have an r0 greater than 1. The use of exponential was sensationalist, as was the insinuation of your chart saying covid kills more than drugs and alcohol which isn't even remotely accurate. Again, would like to see the article you pulled that from for context.

    The boundry is very clear. We have rights. Impeding on those is overreaching and an overreaction.

    I think as a whole personal responsibility and the spread of information (by government or otherwise) has helped greatly. I'm not saying the government shouldn't be involved, I'm saying they shouldn't impede on rights.


    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the analogy. It's funny and relatively accurate. What could possibly be misleading about it?



    This was your response to my polite request to see the source? But nah, don't bother posting your source, after all it is YOUR source. Instead just insinuate I'm stupid... that's helpful. I saw that it was by week and why I asked for context. Even crunching the numbers, the math is OBVIOUSLY questionable. So instead of being an @ss, you could have politely laid the source out so we could talk about it. You wanna try again or Nah?





    edit the link only goes to the source photo, not the actual article....

    Edit, LOL unattributed. Drug and alcohol related deaths are widely published. Would you like a few dozen sources? Here's one from the WHO since you mentioned them. 3.3 million global deaths and over 5% of cause of disease (mentioned in forward) yearly. FYI that's about 9000 a day... every day.

    https://www.who.int/substance_abuse/...014_1.pdf?ua=1
    The article is from May 1:

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...illers-of-2020


    You can agree or disagree with the comparisons to other causes of death. The problem is you're chasing irrelevancies in doing so. I posted the graph not to compare COVID 19 with other diseases, but to show the exponential curve of the increase early on, and how those numbers have declined since preventative measures began to take effect. You can wipe out the other comparison mortality causes, and the curve remains. That's not something invented by the Economist. You can find similar curves in the data from many other sources.

    And thanks for providing the source for drug and alcohol deaths, I'm not disputing it. It's just if you're going to rebut a citation, it's only right for you to provide your own for support.

    As for rights, are you going to insist that Typhoid Mary had a right to continue working as a household cook when every household she worked for became infected? The right to bear arms does not include the right to fire bullets in random directions.
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    One is either woke or unwoke. I am superwoke. But you remain unwoke. Gubmint is evil. I don't understand why statists keep trusting the narrative.
    Yeah, yeah, we know Gubmint is evil. But you have never articulated a single coherent alternative, only meaningless platitudes and aphorisms.

    The problem, and its recognition, long predates your "wokeness." In 1788 Alexander Hamilton discussed it in The Federalist:
    But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
    You are not putting out anything new, or even useful. If you have an alternative to "Evil Gubmint", then the world would love for you to share it. But all you people ever propose to replace it with is a bloodbath of murder, rape, and robbery in a "might makes right" world.

    Which, ironically enough, would only lead to the re-establishment of an evil gubmint. Your "Woke" looks a lot more to me like sleepwalking. Or simply a nightmare.
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    Originally Posted by eomrat View Post

    I am 99% sure that the government passed anti-marijuana laws to protect us. Maybe cops should bash in the heads of dope smoking drunks.
    Dope smoking drunks aren't out in a pandemic spreading a highly infectious disease because their "rights have been violated."

    Originally Posted by Corbi View Post
    Small steps lead to big changes, and its not a law. Not 1 damn state has passed an actual "law" requiring face coverings.
    By all means though feel free to fall in step and take your marching orders.
    First "they" made us wear seatbelts to reduce traffic deaths, and all that did was reduce traffic deaths.

    Then "they" made us put our kids in car seats and all that did was save children's lives.

    My God, when will this tyranny end??
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    Found Charmin at Costco this week. We're going to make it!
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    Originally Posted by radrd View Post
    Found Charmin at Costco this week. We're going to make it!

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    You are not stuck at home, you are safe at home.
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    The article is from May 1:

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...illers-of-2020


    You can agree or disagree with the comparisons to other causes of death. The problem is you're chasing irrelevancies in doing so. I posted the graph not to compare COVID 19 with other diseases, but to show the exponential curve of the increase early on, and how those numbers have declined since preventative measures began to take effect. You can wipe out the other comparison mortality causes, and the curve remains. That's not something invented by the Economist. You can find similar curves in the data from many other sources.
    I fully understand the curve and we went through that, but I hate to tell you the articles gross misrepresentation of comparisons are exactly what I am talking when I mention sensationalism (which is how this conversation between us started). That article is pure doom and gloom with a exaggerations thrown in for good measure.

    And thanks for providing the source for drug and alcohol deaths, I'm not disputing it. It's just if you're going to rebut a citation, it's only right for you to provide your own for support.
    I'm not producing a scholarly article, so if I miss throwing a citation in, a simple request works bro. And for the record, I had to ask for your source because you didn't properly cite your source. Then you attacked me because I asked for the source.

    As for rights, are you going to insist that Typhoid Mary had a right to continue working as a household cook when every household she worked for became infected? The right to bear arms does not include the right to fire bullets in random directions.
    First, let me remind you a quarantine is the isolation of the sick. The forced isolation of the healthy is confinement. Second, the science was far different and Mary Mallon didn't believe she had a disease because she had no signs and symptoms. Third, she died after 30 years of forced isolation which is a pure travesty. By your tone, you seem to think that was perfectly acceptable.

    Originally Posted by Bando View Post
    Dope smoking drunks aren't out in a pandemic spreading a highly infectious disease because their "rights have been violated."
    moving the goal posts. Sit your ass at home and quarantine yourself. If YOU are doing what you're supposed to be doing, it shouldn't be a problem. If they were outside, why the hell do they need the mask? If they were in a business, owners and employees are more than capable of telling people to put a mask on in the facility they own.

    First "they" made us wear seatbelts to reduce traffic deaths, and all that did was reduce traffic deaths.

    Then "they" made us put our kids in car seats and all that did was save children's lives.

    My God, when will this tyranny end??
    ... and LOL at trying to compare seat belt laws (which are wrong and do not exist in NH). Comparing one sh*tty law to another sh*tty law just highlights how sh*tty the law is. Forced face covering, arresting people for being outside and forcing people out of work and into poverty is exactly like mandatory seat belts. Same thing... ffs
    Last edited by acrawlingchaos; 05-23-2020 at 07:51 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Just found out my back-up gym is open. Masks are not required. Social distancing is encouraged.

    Hours limited from 5AM to 10PM.
    Ok i am officially jealous.
    sums it up a thread will start off promising and then turn into name calling..
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    Originally Posted by radrd View Post
    Found Charmin at Costco this week. We're going to make it!
    How long did it take for you to finally find it?
    sums it up a thread will start off promising and then turn into name calling..
    The easiest way to tell when an argument has no merit is when the protagonist mixes in some personal insults.
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    It's pretty simple. If you're scared, STAY HOME. Lock yourself in your home and you don't have to worry about someone else exercising their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - or *gasp* going to the gym!

    When a state reopens, people are not FORCED to eat out, go to a concert or movie theater, or anything else. Stay home.

    The fact is, MANY of those shouting that we should be stayinghome to "save lives" are using it as a political ploy. Their REAL concern is not "saving lives". It's just like how they were incredibly concerned with "believe all women" and "women's rights" in the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh - but now not so much concerned with Joe Biden. Their silence certainly makes it appear that "women's rights" - certainly #MeToo - was always no more than a political ploy. It appears as though they care no more about "saving lives" as about "women's rights"... That they merely spout it when they think it serves a POLITICAL purpose.
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    Originally Posted by CommitmentRulz View Post
    It's pretty simple. If you're scared, STAY HOME. Lock yourself in your home and you don't have to worry about someone else exercising their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - or *gasp* going to the gym!

    When a state reopens, people are not FORCED to eat out, go to a concert or movie theater, or anything else. Stay home.
    So much this. If you're worried, SIT... YOUR... ASS... AT... HOME. Me sitting on a beach, eating out or getting my hair did has nothing to do with other people SITTING... THEIR... ASS... AT... HOME.

    The truth seems to be that other people's liberties inconvenience some of you and that's hardly a good reason to sh*t on people's rights.
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    No one is scared so let's put that bumper sticker in the trash can, or better yet lets burn it! What we are is cautious because we think that we are perfectly healthy but we could be a ticking time bomb when exposed. I personally know some who made it, and some who did not, so just because it has not affected you personally, doesn't mean that we should throw caution to the wind.

    This scared/afraid bullship sounds like it was manufactured a month ago from Trump's political strategists playbook to challenge people's manhood. Most people are careful not scared!
    sums it up a thread will start off promising and then turn into name calling..
    The easiest way to tell when an argument has no merit is when the protagonist mixes in some personal insults.
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    [QUOTE=acrawlingchaos;1605635501]
    First, let me remind you a quarantine is the isolation of the sick. The forced isolation of the healthy is confinement. Second, the science was far different and Mary Mallon didn't believe she had a disease because she had no signs and symptoms. Third, she died after 30 years of forced isolation which is a pure travesty. By your tone, you seem to think that was perfectly acceptable.
    [quote]
    They tried letting her go about her life, with the promise that she would no longer work infood preparation jobs. She repeatedly violated that promise, and by that time she knew she was infected. Her knowing actions directly lead to the deaths of multiple people. Before she was diagnosed, before she knew she was infectious, you can't hold it against her, but there was about a five year period where she knew she was a danger, and she knowingly put others at risk. That's manslaughter at least. At that point, NOT confining her would have been a travesty.

    ... and LOL at trying to compare seat belt laws (which are wrong and do not exist in NH). Comparing one sh*tty law to another sh*tty law just highlights how sh*tty the law is. Forced face covering, arresting people for being outside and forcing people out of work and into poverty is exactly like mandatory seat belts. Same thing... ffs
    You've got a warped view of rights, and a very cavalier attitude for the lives of others if you think seat belt laws are wrong. Not my go-to source of guidance for pandemic response.
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    Lately I’ve been fascinated by how people follow mask “rules” especially in an occupational setting. The effect that management combined with peer pressure has on compliance is amazing. Our “mask rules” mirror the State’s across all groups in terms of when they should be worn (i.e. when 6’ distances can’t be maintained) some groups are pretty much 100% compliant and some are pretty much noncompliant. It’s fascinating because I know some people would prefer to wear one but don’t because others aren’t, and some think it’s completely stupid, yet wear one because they are supposed to. Masks are effective to an extent, but not exactly a game changer since many are able to self inoculate due to “user error”. I wear one when I’m supposed to because I’m in Safety and pretty much wrote the procedure lol.
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    Originally Posted by x-trainer ben View Post
    No one is scared so let's put that bumper sticker in the trash can, or better yet lets burn it! What we are is cautious because we think that we are perfectly healthy but we could be a ticking time bomb when exposed. I personally know some who made it, and some who did not, so just because it has not affected you personally, doesn't mean that we should throw caution to the wind.

    This scared/afraid bullship sounds like it was manufactured a month ago from Trump's political strategists playbook to challenge people's manhood. Most people are careful not scared!
    The entire goal of the lockdown was not to stop the spread of the virus, that can't be done currently. The idea was to slow it down enough so that hospitals and medical workers would not be overwhelmed by the sheer number of patients, that it would give them time to develop treatment protocols and approaches that would allow them to manage the patient load without collapsing under it.

    If that has been accomplished, then I see no problem with re-opening. My problem is I'm hearing nothing about whether that's been the case, and those who are pushing ending the quarantine don't even seem to be interested in discussing it -- or haven't even considered it.

    So, the question is: Is the medical community ready to take in the number of likely cases?
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    The entire goal of the lockdown was not to stop the spread of the virus, that can't be done currently. The idea was to slow it down enough so that hospitals and medical workers would not be overwhelmed by the sheer number of patients, that it would give them time to develop treatment protocols and approaches that would allow them to manage the patient load without collapsing under it.

    If that has been accomplished, then I see no problem with re-opening. My problem is I'm hearing nothing about whether that's been the case, and those who are pushing ending the quarantine don't even seem to be interested in discussing it -- or haven't even considered it.

    So, the question is: Is the medical community ready to take in the number of likely cases?
    Yes, the medical system is currently not at capacity anywhere that I’ve seen (nationally) and could handle an increase. It stopped being about that awhile ago. It could still happen but is unlikely just due to behavioral changes. Now it’s about mitigating until or if there is a treatment or vaccine, or it runs its course without....

    I see people throw around numbers about herd immunity, but they don’t have a clue what they are talking about when they claim you need X%. It doesn’t work that way, it too is a gradual thing and you would see a decline in cases over time. It’s not like flipping a switch and the cases stop because you hit percentage nationally. Some places will be at herd immunity before others. Lots of meat packing plants and communal living facilities are likely at that point now.

    Hospital capacities, available ICU beds, ventilators etc are all metrics that can be tracked and control measures adapted to. “They” could turn us loose right now and I don’t think we would overrun the medical system because many people are going to continue to modify their behaviors in a way that will limit spread, but that’s just my opinion....

    I’m curious to see what kind of spikes occur 2-3 weeks after this holiday weekend. Likely to see some increase since many are pretty “sick” lol of the restrictions.
    Last edited by Plateauplower; 05-23-2020 at 10:29 AM.
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    I was informed yesterday that my gym is open from 5am to 10pm and masks are not required. They do encourage social distancing and wiping down equipment all of which is no problem.

    I will be there Monday morning.
    Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.

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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    I was informed yesterday that my gym is open from 5am to 10pm and masks are not required. They do encourage social distancing and wiping down equipment all of which is no problem.

    I will be there Monday morning.
    I’m jealous. I have a well equipped home gym, but it’s just not the same and I have lacked consistency. My joints are pretty great right now though. About time to turn the diet on and get after it. I squatted some 315 sets last week and could barely walk a few days later lol.
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