COVID-19, let's put updates here

[AdamWW]

No worries; don't feel bad about posting it. I'd rather everyone post everything they think is relevant so it can be discussed and various questionable points can be clarified.

Well this is interesting. Newer article...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...-then-positive

[Heisman2]

Well this is interesting. Newer article...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...-then-positive

I had no idea China is not counting asymptomatic patients as being cases! That changes all of the numbers. I do not think people are getting reinfected; I think it's more likely the test sensitivity is just subpar and there are residual virus particles. Whether they are still infection after the last positive test after a negative I have no idea.

Article on how South Korea did such a good job: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...H3VYihImD__TBw

Another document with a treatment pathway: https://www.massgeneral.org/assets/M...cz1QZQEr8iZBls

Pretty graph showing 8 strains of COVID-19 circulating the globe. Keep in mind the overall mutation rate is LOW and there is no evidence to my knowledge that these are clinically or immunologically distinct. So while this is great to track the spread I would still think of COVID-19 clinically as one single strain (unless more evidence comes out showing these are indeed distinct in some way). https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mY_zQlbwNnfROI

There seems to be less air pollution with everything shut down; will be really interesting to see how the environment changes in the short term if any: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/27/how-...z_G1zAl6uQvgRE

Recently an emergency medicine doctor was fired for being outspoken about his hospital's unsafe working conditions. The American Academy of Emergency Medicine is supporting him fully. https://www.aaem.org/resources/state...eoS2F4XdsolJRo

A New York doctor's warning for the rest of the country: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...2tTbtWqQ9VD8sg



And to summarize where we are; we're at >2,200 deaths in the US. Hospitals are being overrun with COVID-19 patients in the hot spots. Most of us suspect there will be many more hotspots throughout the country in the coming weeks. This still likely will not peak in New York for another couple of weeks and in other places for 1-2 months. Many places still do not have enough tests for everyone and many work places are still lacking in personal protective equipment. I cannot overstate how angry healthcare personnel are across the country regarding these two issues. Many have completely lost faith in the CDC after their above noted guidance that people can use a bandana as a mask as a last resort (hint... this does not work). There are several hospitals where people are being told to NOT use PPE as much as typically would be used to help not incite panic and to help conserve resources... this has not gone over well with the people who are actually in the front lines and being exposed. In general people take advantage of healthcare workers all the time as most of us are altruistic and put our patients/families needs over our own but I really hope when this is all over something is done on a large scale to demand safe working conditions for us. The healthcare workers who are getting COVID-19 seem to be hit fairly hard (though this could just selection bias... too early to state with certainty) presumably due to higher viral load at exposure. I realize a lot of the content of this paragraph are not facts regarding COVID-19 but I feel it is relevant as these are some of the biggest topics of discussion in the healthcare field currently. Many doctors/nurses are renting apartments/RVs/living in garages/etc to avoid exposing their families. Just a bad situation all around.

[Heisman2]

I wanted to include this link separately as the visualization is beautiful and I don't want people to miss it: https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-vis...ZgA5_kmIFfkdjk

[AdamWW]

Recently an emergency medicine doctor was fired for being outspoken about his hospital's unsafe working conditions. The American Academy of Emergency Medicine is supporting him fully.

And to summarize where we are; we're at >2,200 deaths in the US. Hospitals are being overrun with COVID-19 patients in the hot spots. Most of us suspect there will be many more hotspots throughout the country in the coming weeks. This still likely will not peak in New York for another couple of weeks and in other places for 1-2 months. Many places still do not have enough tests for everyone and many work places are still lacking in personal protective equipment. I cannot overstate how angry healthcare personnel are across the country regarding these two issues. Many have completely lost faith in the CDC after their above noted guidance that people can use a bandana as a mask as a last resort (hint... this does not work). There are several hospitals where people are being told to NOT use PPE as much as typically would be used to help not incite panic and to help conserve resources... this has not gone over well with the people who are actually in the front lines and being exposed. In general people take advantage of healthcare workers all the time as most of us are altruistic and put our patients/families needs over our own but I really hope when this is all over something is done on a large scale to demand safe working conditions for us. The healthcare workers who are getting COVID-19 seem to be hit fairly hard (though this could just selection bias... too early to state with certainty) presumably due to higher viral load at exposure. I realize a lot of the content of this paragraph are not facts regarding COVID-19 but I feel it is relevant as these are some of the biggest topics of discussion in the healthcare field currently. Many doctors/nurses are renting apartments/RVs/living in garages/etc to avoid exposing their families. Just a bad situation all around.

Can confirm, my dad is an ER doc and his experience over the last 3+ weeks has been crazy (so he says)

I wanted to include this link separately as the visualization is beautiful and I don't want people to miss it: https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-vis...ZgA5_kmIFfkdjk

One thing I'm not understanding with these graphs and figures (I noticed this in the Johns Hopkins visuals as well), is how we can now be nearing 3/4 of a Million cases in the US, and it's been going on for over a month, with an active illness time of 2-4 weeks (usually), and yet there's almost no reporting of 'recovered' patients?

How can so few people be listed as 'recovered' given the time it's been here and the expected length of illness?

[Heisman2]

Can confirm, my dad is an ER doc and his experience over the last 3+ weeks has been crazy (so he says)



One thing I'm not understanding with these graphs and figures (I noticed this in the Johns Hopkins visuals as well), is how we can now be nearing 3/4 of a Million cases in the US, and it's been going on for over a month, with an active illness time of 2-4 weeks (usually), and yet there's almost no reporting of 'recovered' patients?

How can so few people be listed as 'recovered' given the time it's been here and the expected length of illness?

I think to be listed as recovered someone has to undergo two negative tests 24 hours apart; at least some places are using that as a metric. The vast majority of people are only going to test positive one time and not be tested again. That is my guess; I don't have a great answer. I agree many more will have already gotten out of the dangerous window and are on their way back to normal or fully recovered at this point.

[AdamWW]

I think to be listed as recovered someone has to undergo two negative tests 24 hours apart; at least some places are using that as a metric. The vast majority of people are only going to test positive one time and not be tested again. That is my guess; I don't have a great answer. I agree many more will have already gotten out of the dangerous window and are on their way back to normal or fully recovered at this point.

Yeah my dad something similar.

Another thing I randomly thought of was how annoying it'd be to contract the virus early and be asymptomatic, only to become immune and thus be of no risk to other or yourself but having to undergo long-term quarantine for no reason. Imagine 2-6months of no contact when you didn't even have to.

[TolerantLactose]

Yeah my dad something similar.

Another thing I randomly thought of was how annoying it'd be to contract the virus early and be asymptomatic, only to become immune and thus be of no risk to other or yourself but having to undergo long-term quarantine for no reason. Imagine 2-6months of no contact when you didn't even have to.

Asymptomatic doesn't mean you can't infect others. In any case, antibody titers take weeks to rise to protective levels (if there is a protective level). It's little different than a measles outbreak in this respect. People who don't demonstrate immunity are advised to isolate themselves from the situation.

[AdamWW]

Asymptomatic doesn't mean you can't infect others. In any case, antibody titers take weeks to rise to protective levels (if there is a protective level). It's little different than a measles outbreak in this respect. People who don't demonstrate immunity are advised to isolate themselves from the situation.

I understand you can infect others without symptoms, what I meant is that you'd essentially never know either way if you had it which is why you'd never know you had immunity or could no longer infect others AFTER you got over it and were no longer a transmission risk.

[TolerantLactose]

I understand you can infect others without symptoms, what I meant is that you'd essentially never know either way if you had it which is why you'd never know you had immunity or could no longer infect others AFTER you got over it and were no longer a transmission risk.

That will change fairly soon. Serological assays are reaching the point where they'll be able to seek FDA approval. These will be able to distinguish between acute and resolved infection.

[AdamWW]

That will change fairly soon. Serological assays are reaching the point where they'll be able to seek FDA approval. These will be able to distinguish between acute and resolved infection.

True, but that won't solve for people who are or were formerly asymptomatic. All I mean is that for many you'll never really know if you have or had it, so you're basically shut in for no reason (if that were the case).

[TolerantLactose]

True, but that won't solve for people who are or were formerly asymptomatic. All I mean is that for many you'll never really know if you have or had it, so you're basically shut in for no reason (if that were the case).

Going back to the measles example, if there's an outbreak at a health care facility, workers there may be sent home unless they have had measles or the vaccine in the past. A serology test will show evidence of either and is enough that the worker may return to work. The test itself only takes a couple of hours to get a result. I can see this being the case with Covid-19.

[Heisman2]

As further clarification, you can get an infection, be asymptomatic, and still develop long lasting antibodies (IgG antibodies). If/when we have a good test for these then we can test anyone and see:
- if they have IgM and no IgG they are acutely infected
- if they have IgM and IgG they have recently been infected
- if they have no IgM but do have IgG they were infected some time in the past

Unclear at this time how long the IgG antibodies would stick around but usually they can stick around for years


More links:

Current return to work criteria for healthcare workers from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...O2mL2m5mLPIfDo however the WHO recommends longer wait times and this makes sense as it can potentially be shed for weeks after infection: https://www.who.int/publications-det...6NaOt5c_GBNvqQ

An argument for why everyone should wear masks: ********************/@Cancerwarrior/co...e-280e08ceee71

Another treatment approach (from University of Michigan): http://www.med.umich.edu/asp/pdf/adu...ZGIH4BeesQWWps

One-slide look at clinical course (I have not checked the references to ensure accuracy: https://mobile.twitter.com/DrChoueir...432384/photo/1

Not yet peer-reviewed but this study does indicate airborne precautions are necessary (this has been a matter of debate as various governing bodies have gone back and forth on this): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...Pl5KhOdXmlvPzk

New technology to clean and reuse PPE: https://radio.wosu.org/post/coronavi...YdcfU#stream/0

Excellent video from an expert in South Korea on a general overview of COVID-19, with great messaging at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7...6G3dHxA98WpBQ8

[frankfrank3630]

I rather wish that they wouldn't use logarithmic graphs. Those can give people a false sense that the rate of change is decreasing dramatically, because that's what those kind of things show. Graphs can be made to lie, indeed, unless somebody really knows how to read them.

Though, in some cases, the logarithmic graph is very useful, when something is changing exponentially...

Another flaw I often see is that some thing may be declining quickly from 40,000 to 35,000 - but if the only show the top part of the graph for values over 32,000 it will look like it's crashing.

I've learned to scrutinize any graph, and not go by first impressions.

[Heisman2]

frankfrank3630, I think logarithmic graphs are more appropriate here as unimpeded the virus does spread exponentially. Agreed they are harder to interpret for the layperson.

Some more links:

Lots of talk about the certain drugs that just got FDA approval being helpful but a lot of docs are not seeing definite benefit and there are lots of reasons to be skeptical of the studies thus far. I HOPE these meds pan out but definitely no guarantee at this point. Regarding the first Raoult study: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2...tqTR_5WoN1iLiw Regarding the second Raoult study: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...XGXZZq88cpZ194

Some reason for optimism that the restrictions in place are slowing the spread: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/h...2p3QHHWGkW4Hck - one of the links in this article is for this cool data map: https://healthweather.us/

An article showing the dangers to healthcare workers: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/n...3vmBbP_I9NxIZQ

Incredibly sad/moving/powerful message from a physician dealing with this on the front lines: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2...u-D24areWiePKM

Haven't looked through all of this but it appears to be another nice information source: https://www.wakefieldbrunswick.com/t...tWrplA9HzqNioo

[boo99]

^Thanks for all the info Heisman


Dunno if this was ITT or not but..................

Six-foot rule to protect against coronavirus is questionable, MIT professor says
Calls research it’s based on outdated, finds that droplets can travel much farther

Interesting write up here in JAMA:


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2763852

[Heisman2]

^Thanks for all the info Heisman


Dunno if this was ITT or not but..................





Interesting write up here in JAMA:


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2763852

Yep, that's a good paper and I don't think I included it above. In reality we should all be wearing masks in public. In practice we don't have enough masks so that hasn't been the blanket recommendation. Perhaps if it was that would put more pressure on the higher ups to actually get more masks produced & distributed? Who knows.

[boo99]

Yep, that's a good paper and I don't think I included it above. In reality we should all be wearing masks in public. In practice we don't have enough masks so that hasn't been the blanket recommendation. Perhaps if it was that would put more pressure on the higher ups to actually get more masks produced & distributed? Who knows.

Agree about the masks

I don’t see much compliance with them on most; some remove them at times when they are even closer to people, at store checkouts while paying or speaking to the cashier

However most of the stores have installed plexiglass at the checkout, at least here in LA

[Heisman2]

Agree about the masks

I don’t see much compliance with them on most; some remove them at times when they are even closer to people, at store checkouts while paying or speaking to the cashier

However most of the stores have installed plexiglass at the checkout, at least here in LA

Oh without question most people do not use PPE correctly. I have had multiple people in my clinic put on gloves and then start using their phone. Each time I tell them anything they touched with their gloves could have contaminated them and now that they are touching their phones the phones are contaminated to and they generally look bewildered when I say that.

Also, regarding the 6 feet vs 27 feet, Dr. Fauci addressed this and does not buy the 27 feet concern: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-27-feet.html

Another potential cure being worked on that I don't think was mentioned above is repurposing SARS antibodies for COVID-19. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/nat...yldqOIjgAvtVy8

Another potential treatment would be ozone: https://clinmedjournals.org/articles...nAzspVd3-mzfcs

Article explaining why it is difficult to accurately model this pandemic: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...oipHQ_eg7KLDnI

One hospital in Italy has done a great job protecting staff from becoming infected: https://news.sky.com/story/amp/coron...M7u6rsqLgd5Yc8

Lastly, some caution around all of the optimism regarding hydroxychloroquine (don't get me wrong, I really hope it works out): https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipelin...Wu4gv6MTPn-KrM

Overall the death rate in the US is still going up with 906 yesterday per infection2020.com. Social distancing seems to be having some effect; hopefully the death rate will plateau soon (though most places do not expect a peak for several more weeks... it really depends how many other hot spots develop. Very possible many more will in a delayed fashion).

[boo99]

^^ Thank you

When I was in Catholic School (*CRINGE) the nuns used to say to cover your mouth as a sneeze travels 60 feet

OK Sister lol




RE: HCW

I worked in ICU in NYC at the ground zero hospital (St Vincents----gone now) during the start of the AIDS crisis and I can relate to all the HCW fears, thoughts and long hours! Stay healthy all.

[Heisman2]

More links:

Everyone probably knows this already but it appears China concealed a lot about COVID-19. Makes it hard to trust the data from there (most of us were already highly skeptical of the data): https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...NqLy2tVWp5ndUc

Good read on the emergency medicine aspect of treating a COVID-19 patient: https://journals.lww.com/em-news/blo...oEBF5AX3C-KC4w

American College of Cardiology has put out a risk assessment document regarding the concern of HCQ+AZI prolonging the QTc: https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardio...g2UOks6Po0a0sA

Article in NEJM summarizing what is known about ACE-I/ARBs and suggesting people continue them at this time: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...o5gCwEwMWmT-aw

Masks are being made for those who are hard of hearing; I love this idea. https://www.lex18.com/news/coronavir...ReC6fP1CvmGL0A

The Joint Commission is finally standing up for providers regarding PPE: https://www.jointcommission.org/reso...TkLXze2Qt2rS_Q

Nice graphic showing how the deaths/day from COVID-19 in the US has changed over time and compares to other causes (this is regularly updated): https://public.flourish.studio/visua...0R7jCqKSx9EFws

This has a lot of data and graphs. Scroll down a little bit and then click on the tab that says "All our charts on coronavirus disease" to see them all easily without having to scroll down the whole page: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

Anyways, the US had >1,000 deaths yesterday for the first time. We'll see how far this goes. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

[WolfRose7]

I should have linked the world meter thing earlier been ghosting this thread and checking that daily as an okay source of updates.

This is pure speculation but if you compare the death rate in the US to UK and the supposed infection rate.. The US seems to be much closer to predicted numbers if we take death rate to be 2%.. The UK has a vastly higher % of deaths per positive deaths, which suggests we are missing a substantial amount of people. Possible 100k+ who are infected, not counting asymptomatic individuals either.

Again, speculation. But not unreasonable assumptions given all the info we have at the moment

[Heisman2]

WolfRose7, it quite possibly has to do with different testing criteria. Here in the US we had a very slow start to testing but it is ramping up. I don't know what the UK is doing regarding how many minimally symptomatic people are being tested. I generally feel looking at death rates is more telling for this reason. If you look here and scroll down to the graph for countries normalized by 1 million population and then switch the graph to total deaths, you'll see the US and UK pretty much overlap each other. https://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-vis...T-8lFGMylFo6ZY


Good link regarding convalescent plasma (if you have had COVD-19 and recovered, please consider donating!): https://ccpp19.org/?fbclid=IwAR1ip8N...yqnlQ6-9HR72TU

American Academy of Pediatrics has finally put out some guidance regarding newborn delivery and hospital discharge when COVID-19 is concerned, though they don't discuss hospital follow-up: http://www.magnetmail.net/actions/em...Xt7vQI4AfiZm3U The Chinese have put out some guidance regarding following that involves using a phone app to check bilirubin levels of babies... I didn't realize this existed but per the document it's not available in America. If that's accurate that would save a ton of money/visits after discharge/etc. Most here won't care and don't need to but it's just something that caught my eye so I wanted to point it out for any clinical people: https://neoreviews.aappublications.o...WFIEHCYNt5MbNM

A couple of doctors' viewpoints for those who like reading this type of thing: https://www.vox.com/2020/4/2/2120440...q-fUhMp75oXix0 and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/o...GYvntcvAriMO-g

This paper was published several days ago but the numbers indicate serology testing is not going to be a magic bullet for acute diagnosis; perhaps future tests will be more sensitive: https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance...iaa344/5812996

New guidance on decontaminating N95 masks: https://www.n95decon.org/?fbclid=IwA...2x5dtk-MGfghIQ

I don't have a great link for this but there is some discussion while COVID-19 is causing ARDS, there is other pathology at place such as an overall thrombotic state and some people are decompensating very quickly after apparent recovery with no obvious reason why. Not trying to fear-monger by stating this, just from a pure academic viewpoint the pathophysiology of this viral infection is still being elucidated.

One possible piece of decent news is that the new death count in the US has been mostly stagnant for 3 days. I expect other hot spots to develop and for it to increase further but I still find this encouraging.

[boo99]

Dunno if this was included but here........Study though had three limitations which were discussed in the discussion section

NYC Mayor recommending masks for all and referred to this study

Presymptomatic Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 — Singapore, January 23–March 16, 2020

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e1.htm

[AdamWW]

Just for my locals... Washington State is now extended stay-at-home to May 4th. Fingers-crossed my garage gym gear is all here by then!

[hardyboysare]

This some news from Britain and questions asked of how reliable all these models and data is actually:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

Explains the death rating in the UK and how we are recording deaths by COVID-19 some suggestions indicate the deaths we are seeing in the UK up to 2/3rds of them were 'unavoidable' and would have happened anyway.

Likewise questions have been asked of the reliability of the modelling system adopted by the UK by the Imperial College London as suggestions indicate when counting deaths from COVID-19 they didn't include 'standard national death ratings' into the figures as these would be a substantial overlap.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wor...b15e3af249ddf7

Anyway some more info:-

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0403103959.htm

Basically explains how a sample from SARS victim has shown a 'potential' weakness within COVID-19 root. The binding sites for the virus are very similar and actually only have 4 different proteins involved so potential support for antibody treatment if we can make the slight differences in antibody attachments required to combat the virus.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...voir-research/

Suggestions that it is possible COVID-19 may go dominate in another animal host and reinfect at a later date which may be slightly mutated. Basically a lot of poor animal testing, one study suggests the possibility of cats and ferrets but a lab based test doesn't reflect well in a real world example:-

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...347v1.full.pdf

A study indicate that its possible that water systems maybe infected with COVID-19 without effective treatment methods especially important in developing countries according to the author:-

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0403132347.htm

And more cheerful news in relation to economics and COVID-19. The Bank of America and IMF as well as most economics in the UK have predicted we are likely to have a global recession if not already in the start of one currently. With country growth shrinking and unemployment rocketing looks like a fun time ahead post-COVID-19:-

https://www.ft.com/content/8ccae8d2-...f-41bea055720b

https://www.reuters.com/article/heal...-idUSL1N2BR32K

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/4...in-a-recession

Much will depend on how long we have to shut the most if the world down and how it recovers afterwards thanks to government stimulus packages but then again those packages will need paying back somehow.

And finally for a laugh here is the new claim of COVID-19 around of social sites:-

https://fullfact.org/health/5G-not-a...g-coronavirus/

People actually believe 5G can increase the spread of COVID-19...... They make magical claims that 5G may damage your immune system and the virus communicates via 5G due to radiowaves lol

Next little virus will use Facetime with cat filters to communicate to each other! What hope does the world have if people actual believe this.......

[Heisman2]

Dunno if this was included but here........Study though had three limitations which were discussed in the discussion section

NYC Mayor recommending masks for all and referred to this study

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e1.htm

I did not read the link but I agree with masks for all in public. South Korea has done that and one of the lead physicians there thinks that has been helpful. The problem is we don't have enough masks. Now the CDC apparently wants everyone to make their own cloth masks to use in public... better than nothing I guess. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ace-cover.html

hardyboysare, agreed the majority of deaths may have been heading that way anyways but there are still a lot of relatively healthy people being hit hard. Its a viable idea and definitely needs to be explored more; I don't think we're really going to be able to sort that out for several more weeks as more rigorous data comes in from different locations. Separately, LOL at the 5G concern!

Medscape is now keeping a running list of healthcare workers who have passed away due to COVID-19: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...9bGPO4OjU#vp_1

There is some hope that the BCG vaccine may help decrease mortality... no firm data on this yet but it is being studied. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...Rxadk&from=mdr and a couple of trials: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/resul...hJPyZg5pzeXC7E

Some hope that an antiparasitic drug may be helpful (this drug is used somewhat regularly in humans with parasitic infections but has not yet been used for this purpose): https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/he...whtWK0zcyQNpPs

More work on vaccine development: https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/sc...Hqqs_9cbneNzmw I am really interested in how many different groups are approaching a vaccine in different ways... it'll be interesting to me to see what works out the best and if that can inform future vaccine development for other things

A compilation of data through 4/3/2020 regarding the various medications that have been used: https://www.ashp.org/-/media/assets/...g9YDFdkDwOa2lQ



In the US deaths jumped up some yesterday so not quite stagnant after all. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ This was last updated 4/1/2020 but is supposed to be updated again some time today for the next round of projections: https://covid19.healthdata.org/?fbcl...TIpxhXWA1SmtOg I don't expect deaths to plateau for another couple of weeks... several places in the country will likely see increased activity as time goes on and as quarantines eventually loosen.

[MrCarrot]

On a more important note, is anyone still ordering takeout? Someone in the misc commented that people ordering takeout are "brave", suggesting it's a bad idea. Personally I don't see how it can be any worse than having your groceries delivered (or going to collect them).

I've been having takeout every weekend mainly due to boredom and because it's about the only thing to look forward to. I collect it myself, but I phone in advance so I only spend a few seconds in the shop, anti-bac my hands when I get back in the car, wash my hands when I get home, empty the food out on to plates and then wash my hands again.

[WolfRose7]

On a more important note, is anyone still ordering takeout? Someone in the misc commented that people ordering takeout are "brave", suggesting it's a bad idea. Personally I don't see how it can be any worse than having your groceries delivered (or going to collect them).

I've been having takeout every weekend mainly due to boredom and because it's about the only thing to look forward to. I collect it myself, but I phone in advance so I only spend a few seconds in the shop, anti-bac my hands when I get back in the car, wash my hands when I get home, empty the food out on to plates and then wash my hands again.

I think that collecting take out regularly yourself would be considered illegal here in the U.K at the moment since that's non-essential, not that I have a choice we live to deep in the country for take outs...

[MrCarrot]

I think that collecting take out regularly yourself would be considered illegal here in the U.K at the moment since that's non-essential, not that I have a choice we live to deep in the country for take outs...

No, you're definitely allowed to collect, taking the nessecary precautions:

* no orders should be taken in person on the premises - this should be communicated to customers by appropriate means such as signage
* businesses should therefore only take orders online or by telephone
* customers could have staggered collection times - customers should be discouraged from entering the premises until their order is ready
customers arriving without having already placed an order should be encouraged to leave the premises to place their order by telephone or online, and to return at a designated time for collection

Taken from https://www.gov.uk/government/public...virus-covid-19

[hardyboysare]

hardyboysare, agreed the majority of deaths may have been heading that way anyways but there are still a lot of relatively healthy people being hit hard. Its a viable idea and definitely needs to be explored more; I don't think we're really going to be able to sort that out for several more weeks as more rigorous data comes in from different locations. Separately, LOL at the 5G concern!

I agree that quite a few are being hit because of the virus and we need to help support the people on frontline and the valuable where we can, but I just find the media and reporting very misleading on how much the virus causing uncontrolled deaths. The media reports seems like in the UK that every day we have a virus killing 500-800 daily with daily bulletins and every public figure dying to be caused by COVID-19, it makes it sounds like it is the sole killer and forgets the fact according to death registrations of Office for National Statistics we lose around 12000 people every week a year. No-one is reporting on any other diseases or deaths which are killing people daily which I find sad for humanity really.

I personally find it misleading to the average individual and would like to know the percentage who actually are dying because of the virus not just the ones who have it because that doesn't help in scientific analysis. For example I could state that the deaths with the Human papillomavirus is nearly 500000 people in the UK yearly and has an infection rate of 90% in adults which would make scary headlines but once you understand its basically warts or even no symptoms its not scary at all seeing as nearly all sexually active individuals will have it.

Its an extreme example I admit and COVID-19 is a lot lot lot worse heath wise and I am not trying to undermine the effect COVID-19 is having on lives and the risk I just find overestimated statements that the media and even scientific studies are reporting without solid evidence aren't helping society at all.

I am also concerned for the after effects of this virus in communities, general life and the health and wellbeing. With the UK (and other countries I guess) cancelling cancer screening, treatments, organ transplants, non-life threatening treatments and many other things. I just hope the numbers lost afterwards from other things then COVID-19 and its effects e.g. lockdown, suicides, hate crime etc doesn't outweigh the measures in place. Only time will tell I am afraid.

I think that collecting take out regularly yourself would be considered illegal here in the U.K at the moment since that's non-essential, not that I have a choice we live to deep in the country for take outs...

No, you're definitely allowed to collect, taking the nessecary precautions:

* no orders should be taken in person on the premises - this should be communicated to customers by appropriate means such as signage
* businesses should therefore only take orders online or by telephone
* customers could have staggered collection times - customers should be discouraged from entering the premises until their order is ready
customers arriving without having already placed an order should be encouraged to leave the premises to place their order by telephone or online, and to return at a designated time for collection

Taken from https://www.gov.uk/government/public...virus-covid-19

I must admit I have been following WolfRose view and assumed I would be pulled over by the police as an non-essential travel. I personally haven't had a takeaway in 2 weeks since the lockdown due to the advice not to travel.

I guess the interpretation of the law is down to the police. Even though you can collect according to the government, is going to collect a takeaway classed as 'essential'. I am not saying I am against anyway getting a takeaway as I damn would like to, but I can never find any assurance that I won't be fined for 'non-essential' travel by going to get one as the cops seem to be very keen in my area to pull people over (live near the seaside so no wonder).