☣️🦠☣️🦠 Coronavirus (COVID-19) Information Thread 🦠☣️🦠☣️

[LovePollution]

So you're planning on wearing this getting through your entire working day? This picture is obviously meant for healthcare workers.

What I plan to do is irrelevant to the discussion. We have proven that masks are effective and that your claim is incorrect, and yet you refuse to edit your OP or even acknowledge it. It's really starting to look like you are someone that doesn't like to admit when they're wrong.

Why do you think they recommend them to healthcare workers in the first place? Because they work. That's the entire point.

[pogue]

What I plan to do is irrelevant to the discussion. We have proven that masks are effective and that your claim is incorrect, and yet you refuse to edit your OP or even acknowledge it. It's really starting to look like you are someone that doesn't like to admit when they're wrong.

Why do you think they recommend them to healthcare workers in the first place? Because they work. That's the entire point.

Go back to page 10 and watch the video.

[Witrebel]

• Influenza Virus Aerosols in Human Exhaled Breath: Particle Size, Culturability, and Effect of Surgical Masks
  

  Combining the coarse and fine fractions, we detected viral RNA in 29 (78%) subjects when wearing facemasks and 35 (95%) when not wearing facemasks (McNemar's test p = 0.01). Surgical masks produced a 3.4 (95% CI 1.8 to 6.3) fold reduction in viral copies in exhaled breath.

  75% with a facemask (surgical) 95% without.
  
• Surgical Mask vs N95 Respirator for Preventing Influenza Among Health Care Workers
  

  Conclusion Among nurses in Ontario tertiary care hospitals, use of a surgical mask compared with an N95 respirator resulted in noninferior rates of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

  Is this not stating that surgical masks performed equally to N95 respirators?
  
• Do N95 respirators provide 95% protection level against airborne viruses, and how adequate are surgical masks?
  

  The N95 filtering face piece respirators may not provide the expected protection level against small virions. Some surgical masks may let a significant fraction of airborne viruses penetrate through their filters, providing very low protection against aerosolized infectious agents in the size range of 10 to 80 nm. It should be noted that the surgical masks are primarily designed to protect the environment from the wearer, whereas the respirators are supposed to protect the wearer from the environment.

  This supports both of our positions. A mask is better at preventing you from spreading, and an N95 mask is better at preventing you from being infected. In either case, both have an effect in reducing community spread.
  
• A Quantitative Assessment of the Efficacy of Surgical and N95 Masks to Filter Influenza Virus in Patients with Acute Influenza Infection

  To our knowledge, this is the first human study to assess the comparative efficacy of surgical versus N95 masks in patients with laboratory-confirmed acute influenza and suggests that, within our study design, both masks are equally effective when used for short periods to prevent the spread of infection.

  Is that not the goal? To prevent the spread of infection?
  
• Flu mask: Should I wear one? - Mayo Clinic

  Feb. 14, 2020

  This source is recent, strange that a video posted in 2018 has updated sources to reference newly posted information. I guess maybe the link was original and the content in the link has been updated recently?
  
• N95 Respirators and Surgical Masks (Face Masks) - FDA

  The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) does not recommend that people who are well wear a face mask to protect themselves from respiratory diseases, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

  Again, this is a link from a video in 2018 but now the content includes COVID-19. I think using this source would be circular. You are advocating for the public not using masks, and I believe you are basing this on the CDC's statements. I am asserting that the CDC is trying to conserve masks for public health officials and that masks (and resperators) do in fact help prevent the spread of infection. Using the CDC's own statements as a source for why the CDC statements are accurate seems circular to me.

Let's step back for a second. I have insulted you, which wasn't civil and does not help this discussion. I have responded in snarky phrasing at times and I can understand how that would signal I am not arguing in good faith. That was wrong of me, and not productive. My goal is consistent with my sig. I want the best possible outcome for humanity in a medical sense and in an economic sense. I have refrained from talking about worst case scenarios here, I haven't even gone down that road in the other thread pt 2. Masks DO reduce the rate of transmission, this is absurd to even argue. Why would health workers wear them if that wasn't the case? Even the sources you linked above confirm this. Legit all I am asking is that you make the OP reflect this. Please.

[ralphlaurenbrah]

What I plan to do is irrelevant to the discussion. We have proven that masks are effective and that your claim is incorrect, and yet you refuse to edit your OP or even acknowledge it. It's really starting to look like you are someone that doesn't like to admit when they're wrong.

Why do you think they recommend them to healthcare workers in the first place? Because they work. That's the entire point.

They don’t even wear masks in the OR in the UK because THEY DONT DO ****

[LovePollution]

They don’t even wear masks in the OR in the UK because THEY DONT DO ****

Wrong on both points. Try again.

[pogue]

I'm done talking about face masks. If you want to wear a face mask because you think it makes you feel safer, knock yourself out. I don't wear one. Because I don't choose to live my life in fear.

As already stated previously, the flu has already killed 40k people every month since it got started last fall. But the news isn't all over that. I got a flu shot and a pneumonia shot. I feel fine and I'm not worried in the slightest about the coronavirus.

[LukeLissen]

One more thing that everyone can do to lessen the spread - health care facilities, nursing homes, businesses/employers, patronized businesses like grocery/shopping/supplies, and individuals at home - is to keep it as warm as possible.

It's known through numerous research that coronaviruses can live a long time outside the body when its cold and dies outside the body much faster the warmer it is.

Can you post the study where you got the information? This sets off my BS meter to level 9/10.

https://eurekalert.org/pub_releases/...-hlc020720.php

Unsure why this sets off your BS meter. Many types of microorgasms carried in liquids tend to die when their carrier droplet dries out, and refrigerating a microorgasm to keep it alive is fairly basic. Coronaviruses are generally encased in fat capsules which break down in hot temperatures, unlike protein capsules. With that said, higher humidity may also deter droplets from lingering in the air, so dry air may be a double-edged sword.

Günter Kampf, Daniel Todt, Stephanie Pfaender, Eike Steinmann: Persistence of coronaviruses on inanimate surfaces and its inactivation with biocidal agents, in: Journal of Hospital Infection, 2020, DOI: 10.1016/j.jhin.2020.01.022

That post is discussing keeping surfaces warm to prevent infection, not the human body.

I mean, that's literally useless information. Yes, I was wrong - the poster made his statement like he was saying for people to keep warm. But regardless, keep warm - in what what? Turn your heat in your house and to what temperature?

That's really completely unhelpful. It's like your mom telling you to keep warm when you go out in the cold.

I specifically said "outside the body" ie referring to the conditions a virus might encounter in the environment "outside the body" ie. droplets and fomites in the environment not inside the body.

I was very specific and completely clear about that. There was no ambiguity or vagueness about it.


Stability of Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) under different environmental conditions
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/con...13.18.38.20590

[MEDITATE]

So corona is spreading like wild fire in nyc.

[ANumber1]

People are asking you to remove the part about masks not being helpful from the OP. We are not asking you to change your personal habits

He's being asked to stop spreading misinformation. Plain and simple.

Lying to someone denies them the freedom to make an informed choice. It's one thing to decide not to wear a mask, it's another thing to tell someone it won't help them avoid becoming a carrier and thereby avoid spreading it to vulnerable people who they would like to not kill. Pogue only wants information that confirms whatever he feels like doing. It's a natural human cognitive bias but it's dangerous right now.

NY now up to 76 cases. A 33-year-old taxi driver walked into a hospital in Queens, was sent home, and came back later that day when his symptoms worsened. Now 40 doctors and nurses are quarantined and unable to work. It's only a matter of time until somebody does something stupid because the OP of this thread misleadingly claims young and healthy people are unlikely to contract it.

[Anachron]

WRONG!

It's only 50k max A YEAR.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm

If the US is the only country in the world, then yes.

[jasticus]

Fuark my friends friend came off the cruise. Has symptoms been quarentine his self in bountiful Utah. Utah got a cases miles from me now. It’s war

[DassItMan]

I think this is one of those times where it's fair to say op is a *******. Imagine asking for evidence for something, being presented that evidence, and then choosing to just ignore it.

[DassItMan]

If the US is the only country in the world, then yes.

On the misc and Reddit there is a default assumption that US is the be all end all, for better or worse

[ANumber1]

I think this is one of those times where it's fair to say op is a *******. Imagine asking for evidence for something, being presented that evidence, and then choosing to just ignore it.

Not just ignore it, but declare the debate over because he, personally, has decided not to do it.

Stunning and brave.

[jtaylor2010]

I think we can move on from the mask topic. Enough evidence has been presented from both sides for people to make their own decision. This thread should move forward with information and if people want it to be it can be another discussion thread. Two very helpful things are feeling that 1.) you have some control over your situation and 2.) that you are not alone in going through it. Giving & getting good advice and sharing experiences can do that. Spending 3 pages arguing about things doesn’t.

[MEDITATE]

MSNBC
New York coronavirus cases jump to 76; Gov. Cuomo declares emergency

[pogue]

I specifically said "outside the body" ie referring to the conditions a virus might encounter in the environment "outside the body" ie. droplets and fomites in the environment not inside the body.

I was very specific and completely clear about that. There was no ambiguity or vagueness about it.


Stability of Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) under different environmental conditions
https://www.eurosurveillance.org/con...13.18.38.20590

One more thing that everyone can do to lessen the spread - health care facilities, nursing homes, businesses/employers, patronized businesses like grocery/shopping/supplies, and individuals at home - is to keep it as warm as possible.

That certainly reads to me like you are telling people to be as warm as possible.

I never had you down as the type of person to simply turn your back on a discussion just because you are wrong. I know mods across the Internet tend to act all high and mighty, but I'm genuinely surprised this time around. You asked for sources, you got sources. One of those sources is the exact same one you used yourself in your OP... and yet for some utterly strange reason you refuse to accept it. It's amazing. It's not about fear or 'feeling' safer. It's about facts.

I guess I'll go back to the 'conspiracy' thread.

I posted plenty of evidence to refute this. I said it may help and linked to a video explaining the pros and cons and then linked to the studies they used. However, the confirmation bias by the conspiratorial group is just unbelievable. It's like arguing with 9/11 deniers. It's just a waste of my time and energy and I can spend it better doing other things.

Then you have people who read the studies and just cherry pick the results that support their confirmation bias. Thus, no amount of evidence will change the mind of the other person because their beliefs are so ingrained. It's a complete waste of my time and effort.

I believe the masks may be effective against COVID-19. That doesn't mean I'm going to recommend people wear them. My entire argument from post #1 is that this entire "pandemic/epidemic" is completely overblown. Your risk level to get this virus is so low you're more likely to get hit by a meteor walking down the street than getting it. So if you want to wear a mask, wear nitrile gloves, or put yourself in a bubble and gargle with Lysol, be my guest.

I think this is one of those times where it's fair to say op is a *******. Imagine asking for evidence for something, being presented that evidence, and then choosing to just ignore it.

Negged for uncivil discussion. If you want to have a conversation with me, you're going to have to do it civily as I say in my signature. The groupthink here is becoming overwhelming and I'm going to have to start deleting some of these posts before it gets out of hand.

Not just ignore it, but declare the debate over because he, personally, has decided not to do it.

Stunning and brave.

I'm done with it because I'm not an expert on masks. I'm not an expert on viruses - and I think it's fair to say none of us are. I presented the science, judge it for yourself.

I think we can move on from the mask topic. Enough evidence has been presented from both sides for people to make their own decision. This thread should move forward with information and if people want it to be it can be another discussion thread. Two very helpful things are feeling that 1.) you have some control over your situation and 2.) that you are not alone in going through it. Giving & getting good advice and sharing experiences can do that. Spending 3 pages arguing about things doesn’t.

This ^^^

[yabbayabba]

MSNBC
New York coronavirus cases jump to 76; Gov. Cuomo declares emergency

I'm still of the opinion that Misc has a bunch of CT tards trying to make the situation worse then it really is. But I live in Commiefornia and I am a bit concerned (already got masks, food, water, sanitizer, etc stocked up) that my ******* boss is going to want people to come in to work if/when my city declares an emergency. We make video games so it isn't like we need to be in the office all the time (already been bitched out about ditching out early to work from home). It's dumb preventable stuff like this that is going to make the situation worse then it really needs to be. Not to mention that we have sales people still traveling the country coming in and out of the office.

[ANumber1]

The groupthink here is becoming overwhelming and I'm going to have to start deleting some of these posts before it gets out of hand.

Do you think your own conduct might be a factor in causing a concensus that you're wrong to become uncivil and get out of hand?

I believe the masks may be effective against COVID-19. That doesn't mean I'm going to recommend people wear them. My entire argument from post #1 is that this entire "pandemic/epidemic" is completely overblown. Your risk level to get this virus is so low you're more likely to get hit by a meteor walking down the street than getting it.

Yet your "information" guide continues to specifically promulgate information you state you believe to be false and misleading.

As for the meteor, I encourage you to look up the statistics and divide the numbers of confirmed cases in China and Italy into their regional populations. I realize you're being facetious, but even by exaggerated metaphor standards, it's ridiculous. Italy reported a thousand new cases today alone, with plenty of reason to suspect they're failing to detect many cases in light of their unusually high death rate. Seven members of the Iranian national government have died, some only in middle-age. There are now at least two rapidly expanding outbreaks in the United States, one in a major population center on each coast.

I'm not an expert on viruses - and I think it's fair to say none of us are. I presented the science, judge it for yourself.

All people are asking you to do is not mislead in the OP of a sticky topic you took it upon yourself to commandeer for that purpose. If you consider particular topics controversial to the point of ambiguity and consider yourself unsuited to draw a conclusion about them, that's fair, but acknowledging legitimate controversy in an informational OP you presented as factual and trustworthy would be the responsible thing to do. In my opinion, neither telling people it's time to wear masks nor telling people not to wear them is ethical.

[BulkingIsHard]

Your risk level to get this virus is so low you're more likely to get hit by a meteor walking down the street than getting it.

At the moment... That’s the thing with viruses... Without the proper response it will spread very fast (JuSt tHe flU) Worst case it might mutate and develop a fatal symptom. At the moment it seems more contagious than Swine Flu, which infected over 60 million in the US alone. Furthermore, the CDC has revised the COVID-19 death rate to be 3.4%. By contrast, H1N1 had a fatality rate of 10%, and was responsible for a third of deaths in the US at its peak.

Anyone who doesn’t care about catching the virus or slowing its spread is a selfish ******* period. You put others at risk for infection, and others that come into contact with those people, and others that contact those people, and so on. You getting infected could be the reason 10 boomers die, can you live with that? Most importantly, no one will be working when they are sick, so you will be helping in pushing us further into a recession.

Bottom line, practice good hygiene, and yes wear a mask when it’s confirmed in your area. If you start wearing a mask once it’s exponential there’s a good chance you already have it.

[jackamo2887]

MSNBC
New York coronavirus cases jump to 76; Gov. Cuomo declares emergency

For a disease that's been around since like December.. That really isn't that much.

People are in such close contact in NYC, you'd think it would be literally in the thousands by now. Especially since so many Chinese people travel to and from NYC.

I am starting to believe the idea that this has been around for a whileee but everyone has just thought it was the flu, got it and beat it. Now that it's made the news and people are getting tested it appears to be higher.

[pogue]

Do you think your own conduct might be a factor in causing a concensus that you're wrong to become uncivil and get out of hand?

This is my thread and I will moderate it as I see fit. I intended this thread to provide science based information, answer questions about subjects dealing with the virus, and hopefully reduce the level of panic. So far, all I have done is get into debates with people about subjects that were completely irrelevant to that original goal.

I created a separate thread that is completely unmoderated where you guys can go and discuss whatever you like. My decision in moderation is my own judgement call in this single thread. If you disagree with my decisions, I can respect that, but I disagree that my behavior is somewhat to blame. I'm trying to quell disinformation, not spread it.

Yet your "information" guide continues to specifically promulgate information you state you believe to be false and misleading.

Everything I posted is sourced with science based evidence. People can choose to ignore it or not. This is a big huge internet we're on and this thread isn't the end all be all of where people will go to gather their information. If you don't like what's being posted here, I'm sure Reddit or other sites can accommodate you.

As for the meteor, I encourage you to look up the statistics and divide the numbers of confirmed cases in China and Italy by their populations. I realize you're being facetious, but even by exaggerated metaphor standards, it's ridiculous. Italy reported a thousand new cases today alone. There are now at least two rapidly expanding outbreaks in the United States, one in a major population center on each coasts.

This is just more FUD that I'm trying to stop in these threads. Yes, cases are growing, and I have provided a link on the front page with 2 maps showing where the virus currently is, where it's spreading, the number of infections and fatalities and etc.

Just constantly posting "There were 2 new infections in Peoria!!! OMG WTF DO I NEED TO WEAR A CONDOM OVER MY HEAD?!" type of posts help no one.

All people are asking you to do is not mislead in the OP. If you consider these topics controversial to the point of ambiguity and consider yourself unsuited to draw a conclusion about them, that's fair, but acknowledging the controversy in an informational OP you presented as factual and trustworthy would be the responsible thing to do. In my opinion, neither telling people it's time to wear masks nor telling people not to wear them is ethical.

If you feel I'm being misleading, write up a comprehensive post, complete with references and sources discrediting my opinion and I'll leave it up. These strawman arguments are getting very tiresome and I might just end up closing this thread because I'm being constantly berated by people whose understanding of the scientific method, reasonable skepticism and logical fallacies & cognitive biases are is so low is just growing tiresome, irksome and irritating to me. I created this thread to help people navigate the growing misinformation posted by the MSM, the other CT thread and other sources, but it seems to have all gone to sh!t (hey, it's the misc, what should I expect, right?).

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[MEDITATE]

I'm still of the opinion that Misc has a bunch of CT tards trying to make the situation worse then it really is. But I live in Commiefornia and I am a bit concerned (already got masks, food, water, sanitizer, etc stocked up) that my ******* boss is going to want people to come in to work if/when my city declares an emergency. We make video games so it isn't like we need to be in the office all the time (already been bitched out about ditching out early to work from home). It's dumb preventable stuff like this that is going to make the situation worse then it really needs to be. Not to mention that we have sales people still traveling the country coming in and out of the office.

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/ne...cy-80233029782


its on cnbc, hows a news on cnbc is misc newbs by miscers trying to make/show things worst? its facts .

For a disease that's been around since like December.. That really isn't that much.

People are in such close contact in NYC, you'd think it would be literally in the thousands by now. Especially since so many Chinese people travel to and from NYC.

I am starting to believe the idea that this has been around for a whileee but everyone has just thought it was the flu, got it and beat it. Now that it's made the news and people are getting tested it appears to be higher.

oh really ....not that much?


total infected 100000, dead 3000, thats almost 3% ... infection rate is the most aggressive ... never seen before "unless man made"

your normal flu ... infects 50 million a year with .02% - .04% fatality rate

in layman terms ... if the entire 8 billion people of the earths population contracted the corona.........~220 -230million will die in 4 to 8 weeks.


you still think this isnt something to be worried about?

[yabbayabba]

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/ne...cy-80233029782


its on cnbc, hows a news on cnbc is misc newbs by miscers trying to make/show things worst? its facts .

I don't mean your specific post, that article is fact. Don't think even pogue can say anything negative about that one. But some of the stuff that was flying around in the closed CT thread. Posting videos with zero context and articles with absolutely no vetting as fact that it's some huge conspiracy in China and that millions are dead and apparently every other country in the world is just going along with it. Uninformed claims (ie not understanding math or statistics) that this somehow is some kind of 25%+ death rate virus (also the entire world is covering this up). Countries are intentionally not testing people because they want a bunch of people to die (though the US does seem to really be failing on this one). Just dumb ****. Misc claims it's some realm of super intellectuals but something simple like Occam's Razor seems to be lost on them.

[yabbayabba]

oh really ....not that much?


total infected 100000, dead 3000, thats almost 3% ... infection rate is the most aggressive ... never seen before "unless man made"

your normal flu ... infects 50 million a year with .02% - .04% fatality rate

in layman terms ... if the entire 8 billion people of the earths population contracted the corona.........~220 -230million will die in 4 to 8 weeks.


you still think this isnt something to be worried about?

I know the CDC is say the death rate is ~3.5% or something. But I think at this point you can assume it has been circulating worldwide since probably December (there were **** tons of people moving in and out of China before this became a thing) so there are mostly likely a bunch of other people who have gotten this before now and it was mild enough they coughed a few times and got over it. The total infections have to be waaay higher then the official numbers (deaths too). Not to mention there will be people that just don't get it or don't get super sick from it. So trying to math out 230 million dead at this point doesn't really do much other then push panic. Why not use Italy numbers and say a billion or so people are going to die?

[MEDITATE]

I don't mean your specific post, that article is fact. Don't think even pogue can say anything negative about that one. But some of the stuff that was flying around in the closed CT thread. Posting videos with zero context and articles with absolutely no vetting as fact that it's some huge conspiracy in China and that millions are dead and apparently every other country in the world is just going along with it. Uninformed claims (ie not understanding math or statistics) that this somehow is some kind of 25%+ death rate virus (also the entire world is covering this up). Countries are intentionally not testing people because they want a bunch of people to die (though the US does seem to really be failing on this one). Just dumb ****. Misc claims it's some realm of super intellectuals but something simple like Occam's Razor seems to be lost on them.

listen im not into conspiracy theories or anything.... but it seriously makes you think

1) the virus rarely infects children < 10
2) the way it spreads,how aggressive and truculent it is when it comes to the contraction
3) The anatomy of it , if you check cdc's video on it , theyll tell you that although everyone has it under their perusal and still cant figure out how it mutattes to infect.. something that not sars/mers has.


the statement that the corona viruses isnt dangerous or an “inferior” virus family is not accurate. it has some advanced and unique properties among viruses.

For one, it is one of the largest viral families in terms of the amount of genetic information it contains.

Second, unique among RNA viruses – coronaviruses have high-fidelity RNA replication. Not even humans have this. These viruses make less mistakes when synthesizing RNA than humans do!

[MEDITATE]

I know the CDC is say the death rate is ~3.5% or something. But I think at this point you can assume it has been circulating worldwide since probably December (there were **** tons of people moving in and out of China before this became a thing) so there are mostly likely a bunch of other people who have gotten this before now and it was mild enough they coughed a few times and got over it. The total infections have to be waaay higher then the official numbers (deaths too). Not to mention there will be people that just don't get it or don't get super sick from it. So trying to math out 230 million dead at this point doesn't really do much other then push panic. Why not use Italy numbers and say a billion or so people are going to die?

people going in china or out , they contracted it .... italy,sk and iran are the perfect example.... i mean i was ready about iran today,.... its fukcing scary


not pushing panic at all...... but im a data person.... and the data im seeing isnt something to brush off and say yeah , not worth freakin out..... i mean dont freak out or panic.... but people need to be prepared to the highest level

[R3L3NTL3SS]

For a disease that's been around since like December.. That really isn't that much.

People are in such close contact in NYC, you'd think it would be literally in the thousands by now. Especially since so many Chinese people travel to and from NYC.

I am starting to believe the idea that this has been around for a whileee but everyone has just thought it was the flu, got it and beat it. Now that it's made the news and people are getting tested it appears to be higher.

I have to admit, I find it strange that the number of confirmed cases nation wide is still so low.
I mean...its great, but for a virus that is supposed to spread so fast, etc, it doesn't make much sense when the first cases have been here for weeks now. There's no damn way even those first few cases didn't come into contact with others and so on and so forth.

[MichelleLnne]

can i please have cliffs on how this thing isn't just like any virus?? Am I somehow not taking this as seriously as I should? From what I know- this is a strain of viruses that have always been around- not some new thing... the people that are at risk of dying are the same people that need to be cautious about catching the flu...

From what I have heard and these would be my own cliffs is that it's a superbug- so we can thank people that don't finish antibiotics? So our bodies either fight it off or succumb to it... and it's highly contagious?


edit- read the OP... guess I reiterated it in my comment.. Gonna read the thread I guess

[yabbayabba]

people going in china or out , they contracted it .... italy,sk and iran are the perfect example.... i mean i was ready about iran today,.... its fukcing scary


not pushing panic at all...... but im a data person.... and the data im seeing isnt something to brush off and say yeah , not worth freakin out..... i mean dont freak out or panic.... but people need to be prepared to the highest level

That I totally agree with you on. I'm as prepared as I can be living in the city and if more cases popup near me I'm going to start working for home whether they like it or not. But there seems to be no middle ground on this forum. Either you are a "it's just the flu bro" who is going to die in the cleansing or some CT nut who cherry picks data to convince themselves it's a super bio weapon. There was so much of the latter in the first thread which is why it got closed. I hope people keep posting useful information so people can keep up with out all the fear mongering.