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  1. #91
    Manlet with Credentials Jasonw1178's Avatar
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    First, prove to me this is possible. Fix the VA. No one with half a brain can take this stuff seriously because if the government knew how to run healthcare, they would at least on the small section they cover now. You cannot tell me that they can't run it on a small scale but could a large scale.

    It's like you build a car, it can't even make it out of the neighborhood. Then you build a SUV and tell me and everyone else "hey lets take a road trip across the country", and expect me to get on? Got to be kidding me.
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  2. #92
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    For every negative socialized article you post, I could find a counter article. The bottom line is that the US is the only industrialized country in the world without socialized health care. Why do you think that is? Do other countries stay with their systems because they suck so bad? US life expectancy is lower than most industrialized countries as well. Some of it is due to lifestyle but routine visits to healthcare providers can positively impact lifestyle.

    I personally think the answer lies in the middle. A public option that provides a minimum level of care, routine doctor visits, catastrophic care, etc, with a private option that we could tailor to our own individual needs.

    Sillie for POTUS!
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  3. #93
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NYPat View Post
    Why do we need Medicare for All when we have Go Fund Me for those without insurance?
    Like Instagram models who take a selfie on a balcony and fall 4 stories?
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  4. #94
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HoganIsGOAT View Post
    Wrong. Generally people 65 and over get Medicare. That isn't the age you magically get old and your body falls apart.
    Some people fall apart sooner. People who are morbidly obese, drug addicts, alcoholics, why should we pay for their healthcare?
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  5. #95
    Bonafide Stud HoganIsGOAT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Some people fall apart sooner. People who are morbidly obese, drug addicts, alcoholics, why should we pay for their healthcare?
    Who said anything about the morbidly obese, drug addicts or alcoholics?

    Do you really believe otherwise healthy men don’t have issues before 65? lol
    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind.
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  6. #96
    Registered User 7Seconds's Avatar
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    So who doesn’t get paid the 450 billion? Doctors, nurses, hospitals, device makers, drug companies, some or all of them will be making a lot less money. What effects does that have?

    I don’t usually see advocates of universal health care make a prediction. Sometimes it seems the rest of the world is essentially mooching off of Americans who pay for most of the R&D.
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  7. #97
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HoganIsGOAT View Post
    Who said anything about the morbidly obese, drug addicts or alcoholics?

    Do you really believe otherwise healthy men don’t have issues before 65? lol
    Probably, you're saying they don't have insurance?
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  8. #98
    Registered User randombrah102's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Some people fall apart sooner. People who are morbidly obese, drug addicts, alcoholics, why should we pay for their healthcare?
    YOU ALREADY DO.

    Oh my gawd Dave why dont you understand this. If somebody finds an ODing drug addict on the street and calls 911 the ambulance will come and they will rescue him. And they will do it again when it happens next month, and again the week after, and again and again and again. Who do you think pays for that Dave? Do you think God descends down from the heavens wearing his bald eagle american flag shorts, the Star-Spangled Banner blasting as he walks through the hospital lobby doors and pays that drug addicts bill? No buddy, YOU PAY IT. That 3k ambulance ride bill is priced at 3k because they know some people will not pay it, so the ones that do pay end up paying more because the ambulance wants a profit. And your insurance company knows the ambulance bill is 3k and it adjusts its premium accordingly because they too want a profit.

    Universal healthcare simply streamlines that whole process, reducing some costs in that streamlining as numerous studies show. Which honestly should make sense even without the studies because less people wanting a profit = less expensive. AND it opens up avenues to avoid some of those costs altogether. Maybe instead of racking up 20k in hospital bills that drug addict had an option to attend a rehab center that maybe only costs 10k to beat his addiction. THAT IS 10K LESS THAT YOU AND OTHER AMERICANS WOULD HAVE HAD TO PAY DAVE.



    So moral of the story? If you walk down the street and dont see the corpses of drug addicts and homeless people, YOU ARE PAYING FOR THAT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. That is just the way society works.
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  9. #99
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jtaylor2010 View Post
    It’s just not that simple, and to be honest I’d say we can’t really know how it would play out. Some people would be better off and some would be worse. But again, we don’t know if it would be a net positive for the country. We do know that govt. has a bad record of managing sectors. We also know that the poorest people make the worst decisions and are the least healthy. Some can say that is already factored into our current cost so those people use services and are least likely to pay, but we are able to do our best to stay healthy and minimize the likelihood that we’re exposed to those costs that show up in the form of more expensive care. Obviously everyone needs treatment at some time though, and unfortunately way too many people need way too much treatment. That’s the real conversation we need to have. It isn’t about finding a way to pay for everyone’s healthcare, it’s about finding a way to create a healthy population. Unless we make that the focus we won’t get very far.
    Also you can't just take current care and try to change the cost structure and make an argument that costs would go down.

    Utilization would DRASTICALLY SPIKE as people end up even worse regards to utilization going to the ER for minor things because they aren't paying for it.
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  10. #100
    kein mitleid fr mehrheit Stizzel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Also you can't just take current care and try to change the cost structure and make an argument that costs would go down.

    Utilization would DRASTICALLY SPIKE as people end up even worse regards to utilization going to the ER for minor things because they aren't paying for it.
    Sure you can, you just have to follow Tammy's example and abandon any pretense of intellectual integrity.
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  11. #101
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soaponarope1 View Post
    Interesting. I've had 0 problems with any private insurer. In fact they've been great. Tore my MCL 3 years ago, walked into the orthopedic center 1 mile from my office at 9:30 am, got seen, an MRI, a temporary brace, crutches, physical therapy appointments booked and was back to work in time to go to taco Tuesday lunch. Total out of pocket? $40. My insurance premium was $90 a month.

    Had a kid last September. Got a huge, hotel like suite, multiple specialized nurses constantly checking on us, great facilities etc... Total not covered by my high deductible insurance plan? $3,500, which I paid out of my tax free HSA. My insurance premium now for a family is $19 a month.

    I've had tricare before when I was transitioning out of the army. Was 'free', but an absolute fukkin nightmare. In fact I'm eligible for it now but would rather pay out of pocket.

    Anybody who wants good health insurance just needs to get a job. In fact, my local Amazon warehouse is hiring, all you have to do is apply and pick a start date, $15/hr with benefits. No interview, no qualifications. If you don't have insurance it's your own choice.
    This will be an echoed type of story for anyone with employer subsidized private insurance. When my wife was fighting cancer she got amazing extremely prompt care for all surgeries drugs and related issues and that was dealing with 3 different hospitals. We he out out of pocket max each year at about $6000 which is peanuts compared to the level and extent of care she received.

    I would say generally people with employer subsidized private insurance will be worse under M4A and those w/o will be better off.
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  12. #102
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    This will be an echoed type of story for anyone with employer subsidized private insurance.
    LOL no it won't. Lots of employers, I'd say most actually, don't give a **** about what's best for the individual employee and their families and instead choose private insurance plans based on what's best for the company and bottom line.

    Tens of millions of Americans don't have employer based healthcare and have to work multiple jobs because companies specifically don't want to give benefits and do things like schedule them for 34 hours a week if the threshold to provide benefits is 35.

    It's great that your wife got good treatment for cancer but to pretend that "just get a job" is the fix to the country's healthcare problems is ****ing delusional
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  13. #103
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    How will Physician salaries be affected by this? If/when Physician salaries take a nosedive, quality of care will likely decline (unfortunately), and more will move out of Hospital Systems and into Private Practice/concierge medicine. Physician morale is already low. This may push many over the edge.

    I definitely believe that some aspects of healthcare need to be fixed. However, being taxed out the nose to support the continued obesity crisis/people that don’t give a flying fuk about their health isn’t the way to go.
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  14. #104
    SillieBazzillie Alt #5 StoliFun's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FerrariDaytona View Post
    LOL no it won't. Lots of employers, I'd say most actually, don't give a **** about what's best for the individual employee and their families and instead choose private insurance plans based on what's best for the company and bottom line.

    Tens of millions of Americans don't have employer based healthcare and have to work multiple jobs because companies specifically don't want to give benefits and do things like schedule them for 34 hours a week if the threshold to provide benefits is 35.

    It's great that your wife got good treatment for cancer but to pretend that "just get a job" is the fix to the country's healthcare problems is ****ing delusional
    My friend had a job and private health insurance when he got cancer. Even though I moved him into my spare bedroom for a couple years he still ran out of money. At times his brother was putting everything on credit cards and borrowing money from friends to pay his mortgage. His employer changed insurance carriers in the middle of chemo and my friend had to go through the rigamarole all over again with the new insurer to get his life saving, doctor-prescribed meds reapproved and to get back on chemo.

    But Josh's wife had a good experience and Amazon is hiring, so whatever, right?
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  15. #105
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    My friend had a job and private health insurance when he got cancer. Even though I moved him into my spare bedroom for a couple years he still ran out of money. At times his brother was putting everything on credit cards and borrowing money from friends to pay his mortgage. His employer changed insurance carriers in the middle of chemo and my friend had to go through the rigamarole all over again with the new insurer to get his life saving, doctor-prescribed meds reapproved and to get back on chemo.

    But Josh's wife had a good experience and Amazon is hiring, so whatever, right?
    lol rekt
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  16. #106
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    You didn’t get to keep your doctor?

    Me and 90% of the country did.
    A lot of people didn't get to keep their doctor, you know this.
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  17. #107
    Angus McFife XIII badreligion's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    My friend had a job and private health insurance when he got cancer. Even though I moved him into my spare bedroom for a couple years he still ran out of money. At times his brother was putting everything on credit cards and borrowing money from friends to pay his mortgage. His employer changed insurance carriers in the middle of chemo and my friend had to go through the rigamarole all over again with the new insurer to get his life saving, doctor-prescribed meds reapproved and to get back on chemo.

    But Josh's wife had a good experience and Amazon is hiring, so whatever, right?
    That's the type of thing I would support, someone needing help with cancer treatments so they don't have to go bankrupt or deal with all this red tape.
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  18. #108
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Here's how you fix it IMO:

    -Universal public option, ie. expand Medicare eligibility to anyone who wants to opt in
    -Keep private insurance for those who want it, promote increased market competition as well as transparent pricing
    -Price controls on pharma products
    -Triple the NIH budget so that more drugs can be developed in the public sector
    -Invest in automation and digitization of administration/clerical aspects
    -Invest in preventative strategies and teaching starting right in public schools

    This could be pretty bipartisan. There'd be some increase in tax no doubt, but nowhere near Bernie's version.
    Lol any plan that doesn't include immigration or illegals is null and void. Any of this needs really strong borders.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    My friend had a job and private health insurance when he got cancer. Even though I moved him into my spare bedroom for a couple years he still ran out of money. At times his brother was putting everything on credit cards and borrowing money from friends to pay his mortgage. His employer changed insurance carriers in the middle of chemo and my friend had to go through the rigamarole all over again with the new insurer to get his life saving, doctor-prescribed meds reapproved and to get back on chemo.

    But Josh's wife had a good experience and Amazon is hiring, so whatever, right?
    Who were these insurance companies?

    I have been with 4 different insurance companies (two jobs) since diagnosis and haven't had an issue yet.
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    Originally Posted by kovalchuk71 View Post
    How will Physician salaries be affected by this? If/when Physician salaries take a nosedive, quality of care will likely decline (unfortunately), and more will move out of Hospital Systems and into Private Practice/concierge medicine. Physician morale is already low. This may push many over the edge.

    I definitely believe that some aspects of healthcare need to be fixed. However, being taxed out the nose to support the continued obesity crisis/people that don’t give a flying fuk about their health isn’t the way to go.
    1. There's a huge backlog of people trying to get into medical school at all times
    2. I don't know about the final effect on their salaries. It may go down, or even up since more money goes to the hospitals instead of the insurance company middlemen leaches
    3. You assume that all people are only motivated by money which is false to begin with. Counter examples: genius scientists who invent cures and give them away for free, people who refuse to work for a type of company even if the company offers them a higher pay (ie weapons manufacturers).
    4. Currently, the #1 complaint of doctors in the USA is having to send an excessive amount of time filling in billing information (for insurance companies), instead of being able to see patients.


    Doctors want this.
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    Originally Posted by kovalchuk71 View Post
    How will Physician salaries be affected by this? If/when Physician salaries take a nosedive, quality of care will likely decline (unfortunately), and more will move out of Hospital Systems and into Private Practice/concierge medicine. Physician morale is already low. This may push many over the edge.

    I definitely believe that some aspects of healthcare need to be fixed. However, being taxed out the nose to support the continued obesity crisis/people that don’t give a flying fuk about their health isn’t the way to go.
    Yup. My to mention competition and immigration. Nothing matters unless a plan includes these factors. Bernie's maniacal plan is amateurish at best. Why are we getting stupid politicians create these plans? We should have our smartest people figure this stuff out.
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    Originally Posted by badreligion View Post
    That's the type of thing I would support, someone needing help with cancer treatments so they don't have to go bankrupt or deal with all this red tape.
    There are a lot of resources to help them.
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    tax money should be used for golf trips, fighter jets and Israel. Any thing else is unamerican
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    Who were these insurance companies?

    I have been with 4 different insurance companies (two jobs) since diagnosis and haven't had an issue yet.
    Guess I'm just making it up then. Sorry to have bothered you.
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Also you can't just take current care and try to change the cost structure and make an argument that costs would go down.

    Utilization would DRASTICALLY SPIKE as people end up even worse regards to utilization going to the ER for minor things because they aren't paying for it.
    Then change the cost structure to partially charge people for ER visits? Or even make that charge contingent upon unnecessary use? Single payer healthcare doesn't mean that everything is paid for 100% no questions asked.

    Also, spike by how much? 50% Unless it's an order of magnitude higher, triage can easily turn away the whiners at the checkin line.
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    Originally Posted by drLihp View Post
    tax money should be used for golf trips, fighter jets and Israel. Any thing else is unamerican
    Miniscule, but how about drone strikes and war in the middle East? What about on illegals and their kids? Let's spend more tax on foreign aid and ineffective solar companies as well.
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    Originally Posted by rflearner View Post
    Then change the cost structure to partially charge people for ER visits? Or even make that charge contingent upon unnecessary use? Single payer healthcare doesn't mean that everything is paid for 100% no questions asked.

    Also, spike by how much? 50% Unless it's an order of magnitude higher, triage can easily turn away the whiners at the checkin line.

    I mean one of the issues is the ability of the system to suddenly provide top level care for everyone while doing it at a decreased reimbursement rate. Basically you are telling healthcare organizations “we are going to give you 3x the number of people and 0.5x the reimbursement. - don’t let the level of care drop.”
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    There are a lot of resources to help them.
    Liberals will always point to an example of a person they know that contradicts a healthy viewpoint. They think their examples override data and logic because of feels and knowing the person
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    Guess I'm just making it up then. Sorry to have bothered you.
    Don't know, but you are not going to convince me that I will be getting as good of care as I currently am with government run healthcare.

    One in six cancer patients is being denied drugs recommended by doctors
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ended-doctors/

    Wait times for cancer treatment -- where timeliness can be a matter of life and death -- are also far too lengthy. According to January NHS England data, almost 25% of cancer patients didn't start treatment on time despite an urgent referral by their primary care doctor. That's the worst performance since records began in 2009.

    And keep in mind that "on time" for the NHS is already 62 days after referral.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi.../#194f66d136b8
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    Originally Posted by rflearner View Post
    1. There's a huge backlog of people trying to get into medical school at all times
    2. I don't know about the final effect on their salaries. It may go down, or even up since more money goes to the hospitals instead of the insurance company middlemen leaches
    3. You assume that all people are only motivated by money which is false to begin with. Counter examples: genius scientists who invent cures and give them away for free, people who refuse to work for a type of company even if the company offers them a higher pay (ie weapons manufacturers).
    4. Currently, the #1 complaint of doctors in the USA is having to send an excessive amount of time filling in billing information (for insurance companies), instead of being able to see patients.


    Doctors want this.
    Do you have a source for the bolded statement above? I can guarantee you EM physicians do NOT want this. M4A would allow patients to abuse the Emergency Department even more than they currently do. This will most likely result in more and more patients using the ED as a pseudo-FM office (ex: “Johnny has a cough, we need to go to the ER!!1!!). More patients = more paperwork. More paperwork with significantly less compensation = plummeting morale.

    Altruism is all fine and dandy, but I can guarantee that QOC and Morale will decline when salaries are cut by 30%. I don’t care how “passionate” about medicine you are, those $300-400k continuously compounding loans aren’t going to pay themselves......
    Last edited by kovalchuk71; 02-16-2020 at 02:08 PM.
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