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  1. #121
    Odio quo non intellegunt Steemboat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ghostfacedup View Post
    Liberals will always point to an example of a person they know that contradicts a healthy viewpoint. They think their examples override data and logic because of feels and knowing the person
    Really? If there is an issue that liberals think in the general, and not with respect to one person on, it's healthcare.

    Not singling the below out, just an example of a routine common argument against single payer/public options.

    Originally Posted by soaponarope1 View Post
    Interesting. I've had 0 problems with any private insurer. In fact they've been great. Tore my MCL 3 years ago, walked into the orthopedic center 1 mile from my office at 9:30 am, got seen, an MRI, a temporary brace, crutches, physical therapy appointments booked and was back to work in time to go to taco Tuesday lunch. Total out of pocket? $40. My insurance premium was $90 a month.

    Had a kid last September. Got a huge, hotel like suite, multiple specialized nurses constantly checking on us, great facilities etc... Total not covered by my high deductible insurance plan? $3,500, which I paid out of my tax free HSA. My insurance premium now for a family is $19 a month.

    I've had tricare before when I was transitioning out of the army. Was 'free', but an absolute fukkin nightmare. In fact I'm eligible for it now but would rather pay out of pocket.

    Anybody who wants good health insurance just needs to get a job. In fact, my local Amazon warehouse is hiring, all you have to do is apply and pick a start date, $15/hr with benefits. No interview, no qualifications. If you don't have insurance it's your own choice.
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  2. #122
    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Average life expectancy in the US, 78.69 years. Average life expectancy in the UK, 80.96 years. You sure showed us Sillie.....
    You're laughing and mocking that the average life expectancy is ONLY 2.25 years longer?

    Damn bro. Da phuk is wrong with you?
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  3. #123
    Odio quo non intellegunt Steemboat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kovalchuk71 View Post
    Do you have a source for the bolded statement above? I can guarantee you EM physicians do NOT want this. M4A would allow patients to abuse the Emergency Department even more than they currently do. This will most likely result in more and more patients using the ED as a pseudo-FM office (ex: “Johnny has a cough, we need to go to the ER!!1!!). More patients = more paperwork. More paperwork with significantly less compensation = plummeting morale.

    Altruism is all fine and dandy, but I can guarantee that QOC and Morale will decline when salaries are cut by 30%. I don’t care how “passionate” about medicine you are, those $300-400k continuously compounding loans aren’t going to pay themselves......
    Certainly specialty medicine (like ER) would take pay cuts for the most part. But isn't the thought that ER use would decrease because M4A would require more MD's to choose family med? There would be an increased demand, and internal med might even see pay increases.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/19/o...alth-care.html
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  4. #124
    No Huevos katya422's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    This is something I definitely agree with.

    The biggest reason I'm not for universal healthcare is you have to many phaggots that have to ruin it for everyone else. If people would utilize it sensibly (not constantly running to the doctor for every little thing), our country wasn't full of obese fatasses (like this guy at my job who is morbidly obese, diabetic, has neuropathy, and...still eats like shyt and doesn't lost any weight), etc. Then I could possibly get behind the idea, but that is a complete fantasy.
    Single payer doesn't have to be set up as $0 cost at point of service nor does it have to be government owned and run healthcare.

    People with insurance now have to pay for services. I don't think it would be that complicated to have a co-pay that varies for GP vs. urgent care vs. ER.

    Originally Posted by HoganIsGOAT View Post
    Wrong. Generally people 65 and over get Medicare. That isn't the age you magically get old and your body falls apart.
    TIA.

    Giving people age 50 an older the option to enroll in Medicare or use private insurance would be a fairly moderate change that could help a lot of people. I expect it could actually increase overall economic growth because it would discourage employers from avoiding older workers and would also allow older workers to retire at a younger age or move on to a "second act".

    Originally Posted by randombrah102 View Post
    YOU ALREADY DO.

    Oh my gawd Dave why dont you understand this. If somebody finds an ODing drug addict on the street and calls 911 the ambulance will come and they will rescue him. And they will do it again when it happens next month, and again the week after, and again and again and again. Who do you think pays for that Dave?

    Universal healthcare simply streamlines that whole process, reducing some costs in that streamlining as numerous studies show. Which honestly should make sense even without the studies because less people wanting a profit = less expensive. AND it opens up avenues to avoid some of those costs altogether. Maybe instead of racking up 20k in hospital bills that drug addict had an option to attend a rehab center that maybe only costs 10k to beat his addiction. THAT IS 10K LESS THAT YOU AND OTHER AMERICANS WOULD HAVE HAD TO PAY DAVE.

    So moral of the story? If you walk down the street and dont see the corpses of drug addicts and homeless people, YOU ARE PAYING FOR THAT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. That is just the way society works.
    Same argument applies for a lot of things. You don't want to pay for the "those people". Understandable. However "we" pay one way or another. We can fiddle around with how much is paid and who pays it. Short of just rounding people up and shooting them en masse though it's gonna cost you.

    Would universal coverage spike the demand for care? Of course it would because more people = more care needed. That doesn't mean it will cost that much more overall.

    I don't disagree that there are some people that abuse the ER. I still think that if there were a reasonable charge (higher than a GP, or urgent care) the overall ER utilization is likely to go down. Right now if you go to a GP or urgent care they demand payment up front before they see you so then people who don't have insurance (or the means to pay full price right this minute) go to an ER to be seen.

    I suspect reducing ER visits at the county hospital or private hospitals that have to write off those bills is a good chunk of the savings.
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  5. #125
    Starvation Mode GO! NitrogenWidget's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    You're laughing and mocking that the average life expectancy is ONLY 2.25 years longer?

    Damn bro. Da phuk is wrong with you?
    Well, the U.S. does have TDS which i'm sure was factored in.
    Considering Don Jr. is going to be president one day I seriously doubt you will live to see that age of average life expectancy.

    SAD!
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  6. #126
    Platinum User chaunce54's Avatar
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    That's nothing. I could reduce annual deaths by 10 times that and it wouldn't cost a dime.
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  7. #127
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rflearner View Post
    Then change the cost structure to partially charge people for ER visits? Or even make that charge contingent upon unnecessary use? Single payer healthcare doesn't mean that everything is paid for 100% no questions asked.

    Also, spike by how much? 50% Unless it's an order of magnitude higher, triage can easily turn away the whiners at the checkin line.
    Careful you're going to end up being labeled a racist for things like this even though you make no mention of race.
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  8. #128
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    My friend had a job and private health insurance when he got cancer. Even though I moved him into my spare bedroom for a couple years he still ran out of money. At times his brother was putting everything on credit cards and borrowing money from friends to pay his mortgage. His employer changed insurance carriers in the middle of chemo and my friend had to go through the rigamarole all over again with the new insurer to get his life saving, doctor-prescribed meds reapproved and to get back on chemo.

    But Josh's wife had a good experience and Amazon is hiring, so whatever, right?
    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    lol rekt
    Sounds like some navigation issues more than anything. We also had multiple situations related to drugs/coverage where we had to deal with insurance. It sounds like your friend likely wasn't advocating for himself very well.

    There are definitely a lot of room for improvement within US healthcare that doesn' rely on M4A to resolve.
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  9. #129
    SillieBazzillie Alt #5 StoliFun's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    Sounds like some navigation issues more than anything. We also had multiple situations related to drugs/coverage where we had to deal with insurance. It sounds like your friend likely wasn't advocating for himself very well.

    There are definitely a lot of room for improvement within US healthcare that doesn' rely on M4A to resolve.
    Lol. Thanks for explaining that to me.
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  10. #130
    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    So around 500k US families declare bankruptcy each year due to medical bills.

    I imagine Trump supporters think that’s just being more like Trump so bravo?
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  11. #131
    Registered User Halfway's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Sure you can, you just have to follow Tammy's example and abandon any pretense of intellectual integrity.
    Are you saying that the Canadian system isn't amazing, fast and free?

    When my Canadian fam came over while my wife had her cancer surgery they were amazed at the littlest things, like free parking at the hospital or that my wife got a genuinely delicious steak dinner on her overnight and that the surgery and hospital stay was all "free" because we'd met our deductible.

    Having lived in several countries with muh "free" I'm so grateful to have been able to come to murrica since muh free is the stuff of nightmares compared to our PPO plan.
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  12. #132
    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    Are you saying that the Canadian system isn't amazing, fast and free?

    When my Canadian fam came over while my wife had her cancer surgery they were amazed at the littlest things, like free parking at the hospital or that my wife got a genuinely delicious steak dinner on her overnight and that the surgery and hospital stay was all "free" because we'd met our deductible.

    Having lived in several countries with muh "free" I'm so grateful to have been able to come to murrica since muh free is the stuff of nightmares compared to our PPO plan.
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  13. #133
    Dad gachase21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    So who doesn’t get paid the 450 billion? Doctors, nurses, hospitals, device makers, drug companies, some or all of them will be making a lot less money. What effects does that have?

    I don’t usually see advocates of universal health care make a prediction. Sometimes it seems the rest of the world is essentially mooching off of Americans who pay for most of the R&D.
    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    I mean one of the issues is the ability of the system to suddenly provide top level care for everyone while doing it at a decreased reimbursement rate. Basically you are telling healthcare organizations “we are going to give you 3x the number of people and 0.5x the reimbursement. - don’t let the level of care drop.”

    I’m glad to see there is some respect for the law of supply and demand somewhere ITT..


    As well as reality cost compared to other nations...


    I made this arguments in another thread where a poster was trying to care the cost per capita the US is already paying compared to European (4200 or something I believe ) nations.


    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    So let me get this strait

    You just came and made an argument demonstrating that the US efficiently spends public funds on healthcare(just like government here overspends with leas efficiency on everything else it does) and you’re thinking we should expand that?




    Just lol
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    You are arguing that we spend more per person right now, and somehow if we expand the number of people we cover we will magically spend less per person- and you’re basing that upon nations who have a different geography, demographics, capita per sq mile, etc.

    And many of these nations have a luxury of excessive room in their budget due to the fact that we basically pay for a large part of their defense,(while they also make fun of us for doing that thinking their special and spend less per gdp)


    My law is supply and demand meter says different....
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    So you recommend reducing and sacrificing the quality and amount of care people currently getting care with the public funds as a plan to expand less coverage to more people


    or do you think by expanding tio more people it would still maintain the same quality of care?


    I’d you believe the 2nd question here , I reiterate previous post....
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    This whole farce other nations put on thinking they are more efficient as also skewed by the fact we bear the Brunt of front end innovation.


    If we went public like them.....


    Prescription drugs
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ory_to_Therapy





    The main argument

    I'm going to save my long winded response on this for now, but this is an interesting paper to read on the subject.

    https://healthpolicy.usc.edu/wp-cont...Innovation.pdf

    THE GLOBAL BURDEN
    OF MEDICAL INNOVATION



    Just like in defense, the US is bearing the burden of cost while the Europeans get to take advantage of out burden and fictitiously make it look like they have a better system.






    Europeans who think they have a figured are fooling themselves and taking a vantage of our innovation.


    If we went fill public -game over
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Another note - it’s a reasonable cost public option is available a large portion of middle-class and lower people who have private insurance - they will move to that so the idea that there will still be private payments near this amount is also naïve.



    The supply demand must be fixed as well - what’s the cost of that


    If we increase the demand (people with regular accesses) without increasing the supply(facilities and personnel to provide it), cost will go up and quality will go down.



    The first approach to lowering health care cost is increase supply, and allowance for competition



    Hence my free tuition for medical careers and more TAX incentives for facilities and practitioners plan.



    We can make healthcare affordable and still keep mostly free market.
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    We were moved to subpar quality like the other nations have


    Innovation will slow down as the studies are cited so



    More people worldwide will suffer and die


    I’m not sure why you hate people



    Post I made before this is the immediate solution to maintain some free market and lower cost.


    Increase the supply
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Doesn’t bother me that much as long as we are doing good honestly.


    It kinda comes with the territory of being great.



    If all medial personal had free cost for education , including doctors, we will increase personnel supply


    If practitioners can use 100% accelerates tax depreciation(or grants) and expanding facilities, as well as large medial groups - we will have more supply


    With more supply can come less cost


    If you want to talk about increasing demand, talk about it after the supplies fixed.



    I contend that with a significantly increase supply and less regulation for competition costs can go down.


    Then we can maintain free-market


    If that doesn’t work then we can talk, but until then increasing demand right now can only hurt things.



    I bet we can efficiency the heck of how much it actually cost to produce a doctor
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    I already covered the realistic cost reduction in prior post while maintaining. quality of care and innovation.


    Your proposal will increase cost even more while reducing quality of care and innovation.



    Those two statements are true unless you don’t believe in supply and demand.



    As far as the rest of the budgetary and fiscal argument. that is mostly a separate subject you are welcome to come in great depth at various other threads I have on that.
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  14. #134
    Dad gachase21's Avatar
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    Other small notes

    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Aren’t you locates in the UK?


    As a compassionate conservative are welcome you here for cancer treatment.





    https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/rese.../concord-2.htm
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Don’t take your wife there is she might have breast cancer for sure


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  15. #135
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    Are you saying that the Canadian system isn't amazing, fast and free?

    When my Canadian fam came over while my wife had her cancer surgery they were amazed at the littlest things, like free parking at the hospital or that my wife got a genuinely delicious steak dinner on her overnight and that the surgery and hospital stay was all "free" because we'd met our deductible.

    Having lived in several countries with muh "free" I'm so grateful to have been able to come to murrica since muh free is the stuff of nightmares compared to our PPO plan.
    Whats really strange is the way canadians try to convince americans to implement commie health care, as if their county will be able to sustain itself when the people that visit the U.S. for medical tourism don't have that option.

    Stunning lack of foresight.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Whats really strange is the way canadians try to convince americans to implement commie health care, as if their county will be able to sustain itself when the people that visit the U.S. for medical tourism don't have that option.

    Stunning lack of foresight.
    To be fair literally all their media is even further left and more pozzed than even NBC, imagine a country that gets all it's news from the HuffPo and you're close to understanding why they seem so militantly cucked on so many issues.
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  17. #137
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    Originally Posted by ghostfacedup View Post
    Lol any plan that doesn't include immigration or illegals is null and void. Any of this needs really strong borders.
    This is also true. People don't want to talk about it because they are afraid of being called racist but the fact is that people here illegally are a HUGE drain on the healthcare system.
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  18. #138
    Starvation Mode GO! NitrogenWidget's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    So around 500k US families declare bankruptcy each year due to medical bills.

    I imagine Trump supporters think that’s just being more like Trump so bravo?
    Did they die though like in canada waiting for treatment?
    you are fuk'n clownshoes.
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  19. #139
    Somebody's daughter Retoaded's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    So around 500k US families declare bankruptcy each year due to medical bills.

    I imagine Trump supporters think that’s just being more like Trump so bravo?
    You should look into how they came up with those numbers. Its not even remotely reliable.



    That being said, I am all for medicare available for all.
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  20. #140
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    Originally Posted by NitrogenWidget View Post
    Did they die though like in canada waiting for treatment?
    you are fuk'n clownshoes.
    Is that why Canada's death rate is so much higher than the US...oh wait.

    You're just a partisan shill with a stupid hat.
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  21. #141
    Starvation Mode GO! NitrogenWidget's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Is that why Canada's death rate is so much higher than the US...oh wait.

    You're just a partisan shill with a stupid hat.
    That's because those Canadians come here for medical treatment shill.

    LAWL you are so mad.
    hahaha!

    careful old man, you need to watch your blood pressure.
    good thing you have american health care.

    if you lived in canada you might die waiting to see a specialist after you give yourself a stroke reeeeing.
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  22. #142
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post
    Do conservatives really not understand that higher taxes for healthcare will be offset by the elimination of premiums and other healthcare cost?

    And anyone who uses efficient and insurance companies in the same breath needs their heads examined. In fact, I'd wager Medicare is more efficient and cost effective than commercial payors.
    Ask many doctor's offices who accept medicare/medicaid and see how "efficient" they are. Some healthcare providers don't accept them because they take forever to pay - or don't ever pay.

    I'll say it again as I always do when healthcare comes up.

    -Normal health checks, shots, got a cold, broken bone? You pay out of pocket with traditional insurance.
    -Catastrophic event, paralyzed, cancer, crazy ass accident or something, you're covered.

    ERs always get flooded with nonsense because it's "free":
    https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-06-90-00180.pdf

    Over one-half to two-thirds of Medicaid emergency room visits are non-emergency. Medicaid recipients continue to use the emergency room for non-emergency care.
    It will be abused and virtue signaling will costs us our current healthcare and doctor's prestige and caliber. Why do you think wealthy people fly into the USA from all around the world and pay out of pocket for chit? Cause we have the best.
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  23. #143
    Registered User leafs43's Avatar
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    Let's see here, Medicare is already taxed separately and the program is going underwater.

    Genius lib idea, "Lets add another 200 million people on the program, what could possibly go wrong?"
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    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Let's see here, Medicare is already taxed separately and the program is going underwater.

    Genius lib idea, "Lets add another 200 million people on the program, what could possibly go wrong?"
    You, and all the other "I have my health insurance, fuk everyone else" should re-read this:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597862581




    Edit: And fuking lol at everyone who supports paying for insurance company middlemen who get to decide whether your health costs get covered. Just fuking LOL
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    Originally Posted by NYPat View Post
    You, and all the other "I have my health insurance, fuk everyone else" should re-read this:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597862581




    Edit: And fuking lol at everyone who supports paying for insurance company middlemen who get to decide whether your health costs get covered. Just fuking LOL

    Medicare has trouble sustaining 15% of the population.

    Liberal math says Medicare will be fine supporting 100% of the population



    The math must run on feelings.
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  26. #146
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    Originally Posted by rflearner View Post
    1. There's a huge backlog of people trying to get into medical school at all times
    2. I don't know about the final effect on their salaries. It may go down, or even up since more money goes to the hospitals instead of the insurance company middlemen leaches
    3. You assume that all people are only motivated by money which is false to begin with. Counter examples: genius scientists who invent cures and give them away for free, people who refuse to work for a type of company even if the company offers them a higher pay (ie weapons manufacturers).
    4. Currently, the #1 complaint of doctors in the USA is having to send an excessive amount of time filling in billing information (for insurance companies), instead of being able to see patients.


    Doctors want this.
    No they don't. My wife is a pediatric hem onc and she dreads this. There aren't enough physicians for this to work and everyone knows it. The backlog of people that there is for med school doesn't mean **** because you have people that don't even match at the end of their training. These are doctors ready for pgy1 that can't get work somewhere they want to be for a salary they'll take. Adding more patients at a lower reimbursement rate doesn't mean a thing if hospitals are already tapped out on resources. You're not getting more doctors because it's not in the budget now and it definitely won't be when you're bringing in less money

    Oh yeah #4? Doctors don't fill out billing information. That's just a ****ing lie
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    Registered User 7Seconds's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Medicare has trouble sustaining 15% of the population.

    Liberal math says Medicare will be fine supporting 100% of the population



    The math must run on feelings.
    We need to get the government completely out of subsidizing the costs of the medical care business or just go single payer and start rationing care. Pretty much anything in between is doomed to eat up the entire GNP eventually.
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    Talk To Rudy NYPat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Medicare has trouble sustaining 15% of the population.

    Liberal math says Medicare will be fine supporting 100% of the population



    The math must run on feelings.
    Right now, people with insurance pay for middlemen AND for those without insurance. Surely you would want the "freeloaders" to pitch in right?
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  29. #149
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    Originally Posted by NYPat View Post
    You, and all the other "I have my health insurance, fuk everyone else" should re-read this:

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597862581




    Edit: And fuking lol at everyone who supports paying for insurance company middlemen who get to decide whether your health costs get covered. Just fuking LOL
    And you should read this.

    https://mises.org/wire/how-governmen...e-so-expensive
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  30. #150
    Registered User Halfway's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BOZZ View Post
    No they don't. My wife is a pediatric hem onc and she dreads this. There aren't enough physicians for this to work and everyone knows it. The backlog of people that there is for med school doesn't mean **** because you have people that don't even match at the end of their training. These are doctors ready for pgy1 that can't get work somewhere they want to be for a salary they'll take. Adding more patients at a lower reimbursement rate doesn't mean a thing if hospitals are already tapped out on resources. You're not getting more doctors because it's not in the budget now and it definitely won't be when you're bringing in less money

    Oh yeah #4? Doctors don't fill out billing information. That's just a ****ing lie
    Doctors schedule their own bookings and clean their own offices too.

    Very few doctors or surgeons that I've seen have even accepted medicare patients, much less wanted everyone to be on it.
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