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  1. #31
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    This is the study I was directing my post to Mrpb.

    It was the Antonio study

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022420/
    That's pretty interesting, especially when you consider it seems like the subjects kept carbohydrate and fat intake the same, and simply added a bunch of protein... so they actually added protein enough to put them in a surplus and yet it didn't (according to a Bod Pod) create significant fat accumulation...

    Granted it's not a perfect model (measurement accuracy, etc), but you'd expect after 8 weeks for their to be SOME increase in fat mass from 800 additional calories.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  2. #32
    Registered Lifter boo99's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    That's pretty interesting, especially when you consider it seems like the subjects kept carbohydrate and fat intake the same, and simply added a bunch of protein... so they actually added protein enough to put them in a surplus and yet it didn't (according to a Bod Pod) create significant fat accumulation...

    Granted it's not a perfect model (measurement accuracy, etc), but you'd expect after 8 weeks for their to be SOME increase in fat mass from 800 additional calories.
    Yea it was interesting and i think it was discussed in length somewhere on the forum.


    Full study link here

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-016-0114-2
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  3. #33
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    Yea it was interesting and i think it was discussed in length somewhere on the forum.


    Full study link here

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-016-0114-2
    Looks like these are two different studies. The first one (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022420/) is Antonio's 2014 original, and this one is a 2016 follow-up that used crossover design instead. Apparently he also did one in 2015. I love some of the references he uses, like #12 (candy vs. peanuts) in the first study. I find his Discussion sections to be speculative but highly insightful.

    I searched the forums for "PMC4022420" to find the old threads about it. Very interesting to see the historical context of how this place has changed over time. I had no idea Alan Aragon was a regular and got banned...what's up with that?

    Anyways, thanks for bringing this study up. I've maxxed out my reps for the day but I'll get you tomorrow.
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  4. #34
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Looks like these are two different studies. The first one (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4022420/) is Antonio's 2014 original, and this one is a 2016 follow-up that used crossover design instead. Apparently he also did one in 2015. I love some of the references he uses, like #12 (candy vs. peanuts) in the first study. I find his Discussion sections to be speculative but highly insightful.

    I searched the forums for "PMC4022420" to find the old threads about it. Very interesting to see the historical context of how this place has changed over time. I had no idea Alan Aragon was a regular and got banned...what's up with that?

    Anyways, thanks for bringing this study up. I've maxxed out my reps for the day but I'll get you tomorrow.
    Alan had some bad media coverage/personal things which I believe caused his removal.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by pinesalmog View Post
    I'm willing to put in the work, it's just that counting calories becomes obsessive for me, and actually affects me negatively throughout the day. I feel like I'm always analyzing everything I'm eating, going to eat, thinking about how much I might be over or under calories, etc.
    It takes up like 1 hour of day along with all the looking back and verifying everything.
    start pushing the envelope a little weights wise.. push the weights up a little on heavy days and then increase reps on volume days.
    i reject your reality, and strive to defy nature.
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  6. #36
    Registered User MDSal92's Avatar
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    Find you BMR.

    Than BW x .7 = Protein.
    BMR - Protein = X
    X x .90 = Total Fat allowed. (90% Unsaturated)
    The rest will be carbs, also add 30G of fiber and never intake over 30G of sugar.

    Thread.....
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  7. #37
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    .
    BMR - Protein = X
    X x .90 = Total Fat allowed. (90% Unsaturated)

    uhhhh... no... what are you talking about?

    That would make my Total Fat like 1300 grams....
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  8. #38
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    @Boo yes the studies by Antonio showed that adding a lot of protein didn't lead to fat gain. But all the dietary data was self reported. They were told to maintain their normal diet but did they really? Going that high in protein is very satiating, it's likely that they ate less carbs and fat.

    In controlled studies like the Bray overfeeding study it was shown that high protein intake did lead to fat gain.
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  9. #39
    Registered Lifter boo99's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    @Boo yes the studies by Antonio showed that adding a lot of protein didn't lead to fat gain. But all the dietary data was self reported. They were told to maintain their normal diet but did they really? Going that high in protein is very satiating, it's likely that they ate less carbs and fat.

    In controlled studies like the Bray overfeeding study it was shown that high protein intake did lead to fat gain.

    Was not familiar with the Bray study. Will check it. Thanks.

    Personally I find it hard myself to gain fat when I have substituted protein in 2 outta my 4 meals. Possibly more satiety.

    Same amount of carbs would bloat me and make me sleepy but we talked about our reactions to CHO I believe before.
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  10. #40
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    Was not familiar with the Bray study. Will check it. Thanks.

    Personally I find it hard myself to gain fat when I have substituted protein in 2 outta my 4 meals. Possibly more satiety.

    Same amount of carbs would bloat me and make me sleepy but we talked about our reactions to CHO I believe before.
    I'll take those carbs for you... don't worry
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  11. #41
    Registered Lifter boo99's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I'll take those carbs for you... don't worry
    Haha
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post

    I searched the forums for "PMC4022420" to find the old threads about it. Very interesting to see the historical context of how this place has changed over time. I had no idea Alan Aragon was a regular and got banned...what's up with that?
    The good old days when Alan, Layne Norton, Brad Schoenfeld and Eric Helms were still posting on these forums.

    Alan has been in trouble for (apparently) harassing some women. If you Google for it you can probably find the details. I think this is why he got banned.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The good old days when Alan, Layne Norton, Brad Schoenfeld and Eric Helms were still posting on these forums.

    Alan has been in trouble for (apparently) harassing some women. If you Google for it you can probably find the details. I think this is why he got banned.
    What about Emma who had the original Calculating C&M sticky? She's banned too.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by boo99 View Post
    What about Emma who had the original Calculating C&M sticky? She's banned too.
    I don't know.
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  15. #45
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    I don't know.
    What about Wonderpug???

    That dude used to be everywhere. Also IronWill... haven't seen him in ages.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    What about Wonderpug???

    That dude used to be everywhere. Also IronWill... haven't seen him in ages.
    I think WP left voluntarily.

    Don't know about IW. Would like to know. Have messaged him but haven't heard from him.
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    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Also IronWill... haven't seen him in ages.
    He took a back step due to reason with the formatting of the forum I believe no idea the details. I followed his journal and he made an announcement there.

    Some great posters have been and gone even since I joined IronWill was one the members I joined up for.

    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1571310611
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  18. #48
    Registered User MDSal92's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    uhhhh... no... what are you talking about?

    That would make my Total Fat like 1300 grams....
    Umm what?

    OK Im going to brake this down with easy numbers so you understand. Your BMR is say 2000, and you weigh 200lbs.

    So, 140G of protein per day. That is 560 calories. 2000 - 560 = 1440 calories. If your fat intake is 90% of 1440, that number is 1296 calories, or 144 Grams of fat.

    I suggest you only intake saturated fat at a rate of 10% of that 144. So 14 Grams.

    And dont forget, to synthesis a gram of protein, it takes 1/3 of a calorie. So if you want to take 144/3 = X. And add X to your fat total.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    What about Wonderpug???

    That dude used to be everywhere. Also IronWill... haven't seen him in ages.
    When I came back I messaged WP. Never responded. He was good. Those were good times. Lots of great posts and battles so to speak..lol.
    Curing disease.

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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    Umm what?

    OK Im going to brake this down with easy numbers so you understand. Your BMR is say 2000, and you weigh 200lbs.

    So, 140G of protein per day. That is 560 calories. 2000 - 560 = 1440 calories. If your fat intake is 90% of 1440, that number is 1296 calories, or 144 Grams of fat.

    I suggest you only intake saturated fat at a rate of 10% of that 144. So 14 Grams.

    And dont forget, to synthesis a gram of protein, it takes 1/3 of a calorie. So if you want to take 144/3 = X. And add X to your fat total.
    The TEF for protein is already factored into calorie needs, you don't ADD IT to the total calories.

    Also, what you're basically saying is to eat no carbs.

    Why? Are you afraid of carbs or something?
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Registered User MDSal92's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    The TEF for protein is already factored into calorie needs, you don't ADD IT to the total calories.

    Also, what you're basically saying is to eat no carbs.

    Why? Are you afraid of carbs or something?
    I dont see the point of having over 100 grams of carbs for anyone of average size who is not playing an endurance sport. That does not include fiber.

    Oh well even if its included I mean thats only a small snack but OK.

    I just use 10% as a rule to not go over.
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  22. #52
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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    I dont see the point of having over 100 grams of carbs for anyone of average size who is not playing an endurance sport. That does not include fiber.

    Oh well even if its included I mean thats only a small snack but OK.

    I just use 10% as a rule to not go over.
    Are you kidding me?

    So you're basically saying that nobody except people playing an endurance sport should out of ketosis?

    This makes ZERO sense... what possible reason could you have for this BS?

    I could use this same logic and say I see no reason why anyone would have over about 20 grams of total fat, because really all you need is a baseline level of omega-3 and omega-6, and the rest of the fatty acid can just be synthesized in your own body (because they're non-essential).

    Would that make any sense ? Of course not...

    Carbohydrate sources are rich in vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, they taste great, they make cooking and eating more interesting, diverse, they're affordable in many cases...

    Not to mention they fuel explosive activities like weight lifting, they're protein-sparing, they refuel muscle glycogen, they can help you sleep....

    Frankly, I eat as many carbs as I can... easily over 400g a day
    Last edited by AdamWW; 02-18-2020 at 03:12 PM.
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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    I dont see the point of having over 100 grams of carbs for anyone of average size who is not playing an endurance sport. That does not include fiber.

    Oh well even if its included I mean thats only a small snack but OK.

    I just use 10% as a rule to not go over.
    LOL, I eat 1400 cals of carbohydrates per day just to maintain my weight, no way would I want to replace all those cals with fat/protein.
    All it takes is consistency, effort, proper nutrition, good programming, and TIME.
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    Originally Posted by xsquid99 View Post
    LOL, I eat 1400 cals of carbohydrates per day just to maintain my weight, no way would I want to replace all those cals with fat/protein.
    Same here.

    I probably get between 140g and 175g of protein on an average day, somewhere between 60 and 90g of fat, and the rest from carbs... which is anywhere from (i estimate) 350g to 500g depending on activity.

    When I have too much fat or too much protein, it kills my hunger, which is already a problem for me sometimes. Eating bananas and oats and sweet potatoes is far easier for me than tons of avocado and full fat dairy... they fill me too much.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    So if I'm sitting around most of the day I'm in oxidative glycolosis and most of my energy will come from fats. But me personally, Im working on pound for pound strength so Im just trying not to gain weight. I like too eat, but I dont want to be eating sugar or empty carbs all day if I want what is cheap and fast. Simple solution is just go heavy on Protein, Fat, Fiber, and Micros. I will get some carbs through the day, but its never a priority.

    I mean Im hitting reps of 95s easy on dumbbell shoulder press at 160lbs, if I eat beans all day my gains are gunna shoot through the roof?
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    Also, ATP fuels explosive movements, not carbs. ATP-Pcr
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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    So if I'm sitting around most of the day I'm in oxidative glycolosis and most of my energy will come from fats. But me personally, Im working on pound for pound strength so Im just trying not to gain weight. I like too eat, but I dont want to be eating sugar or empty carbs all day if I want what is cheap and fast. Simple solution is just go heavy on Protein, Fat, Fiber, and Micros. I will get some carbs through the day, but its never a priority.

    I mean Im hitting reps of 95s easy on dumbbell shoulder press at 160lbs, if I eat beans all day my gains are gunna shoot through the roof?
    I have no idea what you're talking about, at all...

    Saying 'most of my energy comes from fats' is silly... whatever substrate you consume (fats, carbs, or protein) beyond what you need at a baseline level for repair and general functions is going to be burned.

    If you eat carbs, you'll burn carbs. If you eat fat, you'll burn fat. and so on, and so on...

    There is zero need for fat intake beyond what you actually need for essential fatty acid needs and hormonal balance.. and that can be obtained easily by getting around .4g/lb. Anything beyond that is just added calories.

    There's nothing WRONG with getting more fat, but to say it's in any way 'better' to have more fats instead of more carbs, well, that's 100% false.

    Once your body has completed all it's required functions with the protein, fats, carbs it needs, the excess calories are simply either (1) used as energy to fuel activity or (2) stored as bodyfat.

    So, if someone need say 60g of fat to get enough EFA's and enough buffer for repair and hormonal balance, and they get enough protein for repair as well as general function, the remaining calories coming from fat instead of carbs makes little to no difference... they become discretionary calories... they're just used as energy.

    People have this weird thing about conflating 'you burn fat when you eat fat' with burning more 'BODYfat'... that's not what happens. It means you burn more DIETARY fat because you have to... it's ends up being the primary source of non-essential energy intake and thus that is where the source of energy comes from.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    It's not just about the energy. The nutrients also affect hormones. It can be challenging to stay anabolic without carbs.
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    Originally Posted by MDSal92 View Post
    Also, ATP fuels explosive movements, not carbs. ATP-Pcr
    You need to read a book...

    https://www.jtsstrength.com/carbs-the-training-fuel/
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    This is an exert from Essentials of strength and conditioning 3rd edition Baechle and Earle.
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