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  1. #241
    Dad gachase21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SillieBazzillie View Post

    And my friend, many many companies have raised minimum wages irregardless of state law. So your charts do not pick that up.
    Lol based in this I’m guessing you didn’t comprehend my above argument.


    I’ll get to the rest of your post later, I’m officially busy at work the rest of the day.


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  2. #242
    Banned Wiincel's Avatar
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    Wages should only barely keep up with inflation.
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  3. #243
    No Huevos katya422's Avatar
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    Chopped for easier reading, but no intent to misquote.

    Originally Posted by Vito-C View Post
    Perhaps it can be structured as a liquidity tax, affecting those who are indeed sitting on giant stockpiles of cash and not investing into our economy.
    This is essentially the way a negative interest rate and/or a high inflation rate works.

    Originally Posted by WinceltheChad View Post
    A lot of people are already paying 1/5 of their income on healthcare. When you avg out the elderly, that's what ends up happening. A single payer plan also removes the inefficiency and liability of the business owner from having to provide for healthcare.
    Agree.

    Originally Posted by WinceltheChad View Post
    No. It's not a bold claim. It's completely obvious since millions are now insured and covered who otherwise couldn't even go see a doctor. It would be bold to argue insuring all these people made zero difference in their healthcare outcomes. That would be bold. And stupid.
    IMO the expansion of Medicaid and the tax credit for those who qualify were the biggest factors in increasing coverage.

    Originally Posted by Gayford View Post
    My personal Blue Cross Blue Shield plan was $350 per month.

    The insurance I went to after that was $1250 per month. I changed jobs after the mandate was cut and obamacare was greatly reduced.

    Currently I pay $268 per month
    And how much has your employer paid in each of these situations? IMO most people completely disregard that factor. Being female I can't cry too hard for you over the requirement for maternity coverage. Prior to the requirement women just had to pay more than men for coverage though it takes two to make a baby.

    Originally Posted by Gayford View Post
    Who forces them to work there? Most of the wage slaves are the last to arrive and the first to leave. They do not want to work hard. They put in the minimal effort. Most of the time they are spending way out of their means as well. They just don't want to take any responsibility for their position.
    Originally Posted by Contribution05 View Post
    A majority? I mean i know there are definitely plenty of poor people who fit that description, but hard to say if that's the majority or not. There are also definitely poor people who just struggle to get ahead even with hard work.

    I know everyone on here says "if you just work hard and aren't lazy you will be successful! All these people are just slackers!" But it's not possible for everyone to be at the top. So just statistically speaking some people have to fall into the bottom. Yes more likely to get ahead if you aren't lazy, and more likely to fall in the bottom if you are lazy, but again, some hard workers have to be relegated to wage cuck life and below.
    All day long. Nearly half of US workers earn less than $30K a year. In Texas for 2016 62% of jobs paid less than $20 per hour.



    IMO $45K is just making ends meet in most US locales now and that takes more like $22 an hour.

    Not everyone that is in the bottom 20% for wealth is automatically just lazy and lacking grit. If only 20% of workers weren't making it socialism wouldn't be trending.

    Originally Posted by Ephedra View Post
    Strictly related to W2 work income, only the top 50% of earners pay net taxes at the end of the year after filing, refunds, etc.

    Bernie wants to raise taxes on the only people actually paying taxes because, "the rich need to pay their fair share."

    How are the rich not paying their fair share when they're taxed at a higher percentage and are the only people netting out at income taken by the government?
    This one makes me tired. FICA is a federal tax. All workers pay it.

    Payroll taxes are imposed by the federal and all state governments. These include Social Security and Medicare taxes imposed on both employers and employees, at a combined rate of 15.3% (13.3% for 2011 and 2012). Social Security tax applies only to the first $132,900 of wages in 2019.[5] There is an additional Medicare tax of 0.9% on wages above $200,000. Employers must withhold income taxes on wages. An unemployment tax and certain other levies apply to employers. Payroll taxes have dramatically increased as a share of federal revenue since the 1950s, while corporate income taxes have fallen as a share of revenue. (Corporate profits have not fallen as a share of GDP).
    Gas tax is a federal tax. Tarrifs/customs are federal.

    Most of the people not paying any income taxes are old.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/howardg.../#308ab9d347d7

    Also state and local taxes usually screw the low and middle income earners much harder:

    THE VAST MAJORITY OF STATE AND LOCAL TAX SYSTEMS ARE INEQUITABLE AND UPSIDE-DOWN, taking a much greater share of income from low- and middle-income families than from wealthy families. The absence of a graduated personal income tax in many states and an overreliance on consumption taxes contribute to this longstanding problem.
    THE LOWER ONE’S INCOME, THE HIGHER ONE’S OVERALL EFFECTIVE STATE AND LOCAL TAX RATE. On average, the lowest-income 20 percent of taxpayers face a state and local tax rate more than 50 percent higher than the top 1 percent of households. The nationwide average effective state and local tax rate is 11.4 percent for the lowest-income 20 percent of individuals and families, 9.9 percent for the middle 20 percent, and 7.4 percent for the top 1 percent.
    Lots more on state and local tax here:
    https://itep.org/whopays/

    Very very few people are actually getting a "free ride" and they are mostly the elderly, disable, and children.

    Originally Posted by Wiincel View Post
    Wages should only barely keep up with inflation.
    Hell no. If you mean the minimum wage *maybe*, but if all wages only barely kept up with inflation no one would be able to accumulate wealth during their working life to support themselves when the are no longer able to work.
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  4. #244
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WinceltheChad View Post
    A lot of people are already paying 1/5 of their income on healthcare. When you avg out the elderly, that's what ends up happening. A single payer plan also removes the inefficiency and liability of the business owner from having to provide for healthcare.
    I will reply to a troll on this. People who have private insurance are not paying out 1/6 of their income for health insurance. I'm sure not and my employees are not and my friends are not.

    The people who are paying 1/5 of their income are the people the democrats say they are trying to help. Those are the people on the impotent Obamacare with outrageous premiums and even more outrageous and unreachable deductibles.

    Bernie has recently even admitted that EVERYONE'S taxes will increase.
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  5. #245
    No Huevos katya422's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    I will reply to a troll on this. People who have private insurance are not paying out 1/6 of their income for health insurance. I'm sure not and my employees are not and my friends are not.

    The people who are paying 1/5 of their income are the people the democrats say they are trying to help. Those are the people on the impotent Obamacare with outrageous premiums and even more outrageous and unreachable deductibles.

    Bernie has recently even admitted that EVERYONE'S taxes will increase.
    Hey I'm glad that you and your employees have an affordable plan.

    And the market place is a mess. IMO Medicaid expansion should have been implemented in all of the states even if the federal government had to pick up the bill.

    In states with expanded Medicaid the poorest get Medicaid then the next group up that doesn't have employer sponsored insurance can use the marketplace for coverage and receive a tax credit subsidy for some level of coverage even if it isn't a great level of coverage.

    If you don't get a good sized subsidy then the marketplace plans are worthless. In my personal circumstance the premium would be about 1/3rd of my monthly income and then if you include the deductible and the additional split after that (80/20) up to the maximum OOP it could potentially add up to 100% of my annual income.

    Health insurance acts as a kind of regressive tax by nature. The employee portion is the same for an employee that is earning $30K a year and an employee that is earning $100K a year.

    And it isn't truly a market as most of us are captive to whatever plan our employer chooses to offer. So it isn't like grocery shopping where you can choose to get ground turkey instead of prime rib, or shopping for a car where you can choose to buy a used Honda instead of a new Lexus. You are stuck paying whatever the amount is.

    I completely understand the apprehension about a government plan/single payer. That doesn't mean it is the wrong choice- just that it should be done very carefully with a lot of analysis and public discussion.

    Maybe for you a decrease in healthcare spending and an increase in taxes would be a net negative. For a lot of people it would go the other way because taxation at the federal level is at least flat vs. regressive.

    And the US already spends a lot of public funds (aka your tax dollars) on healthcare. We spend more than many other countries to provide less care to fewer people.

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  6. #246
    kein mitleid fr mehrheit Stizzel's Avatar
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    Liberals: Our free market healthcare sucks!
    Also liberals: Well tbh our healthcare is already full of socialism so why not add some more?
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  7. #247
    Dad gachase21's Avatar
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    Cot dauyn this thread is turning into a much larger project than I first thought.



    I’m gonna have to take a nap before I get back into this one, and figure a way to summarize thoughts - lots of topics to hit here....
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  8. #248
    Md, Misc, Old-Brah SillieBazzillie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by katya422 View Post
    Hey I'm glad that you and your employees have an affordable plan.

    And the market place is a mess. IMO Medicaid expansion should have been implemented in all of the states even if the federal government had to pick up the bill.

    In states with expanded Medicaid the poorest get Medicaid then the next group up that doesn't have employer sponsored insurance can use the marketplace for coverage and receive a tax credit subsidy for some level of coverage even if it isn't a great level of coverage.

    If you don't get a good sized subsidy then the marketplace plans are worthless. In my personal circumstance the premium would be about 1/3rd of my monthly income and then if you include the deductible and the additional split after that (80/20) up to the maximum OOP it could potentially add up to 100% of my annual income.

    Health insurance acts as a kind of regressive tax by nature. The employee portion is the same for an employee that is earning $30K a year and an employee that is earning $100K a year.

    And it isn't truly a market as most of us are captive to whatever plan our employer chooses to offer. So it isn't like grocery shopping where you can choose to get ground turkey instead of prime rib, or shopping for a car where you can choose to buy a used Honda instead of a new Lexus. You are stuck paying whatever the amount is.

    I completely understand the apprehension about a government plan/single payer. That doesn't mean it is the wrong choice- just that it should be done very carefully with a lot of analysis and public discussion.

    Maybe for you a decrease in healthcare spending and an increase in taxes would be a net negative. For a lot of people it would go the other way because taxation at the federal level is at least flat vs. regressive.

    And the US already spends a lot of public funds (aka your tax dollars) on healthcare. We spend more than many other countries to provide less care to fewer people.

    ib4 Trump supporters point out that the US is 8x the size of the those countries.

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  9. #249
    I hate buffering JRMoore82's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    The US is the biggest and most profitable market in the world for companies, they aren't going anywhere. People didn't flee the US when top tax rates used to be 90+% under FDR or Eisenhower.

    https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I7

    Top marginal rates are near or above 50% in most wealthy nations around the globe. Where exactly are they going to go bro?
    Do you think that everything that sells within the USA is made/sold by Americans? That people from other countries don’t do any business here.

    Would rather pay import taxes than paying all my business taxes and then also taking a 52% haircut after that.

    And once you’re not getting all their business taxes and income taxes it’s game over.
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  10. #250
    No Huevos katya422's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Liberals: Our free market healthcare sucks!
    Also liberals: Well tbh our healthcare is already full of socialism so why not add some more?
    Not exactly.

    For me a marketplace plan is $500 to $600 a month plus deductible and "co-insurance" at 80/20 up to the max out of pocket.

    That is $6000 to $7200 a year for no actual care- just having insurance.

    Meanwhile the OECD average per capita is less than $4000 a year for actual care. Like doctors and hospitals and prescriptions.

    The US public taxpayer funded spending for healthcare shown is near $4200 per capita and we have millions of people with no insurance and also spent another $4500 per capita on privately funded healthcare.

    And these other countries are paying for care for all of their people at that rate.
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  11. #251
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JRMoore82 View Post
    Do you think that everything that sells within the USA is made/sold by Americans? That people from other countries don’t do any business here.

    Would rather pay import taxes than paying all my business taxes and then also taking a 52% haircut after that.

    And once you’re not getting all their business taxes and income taxes it’s game over.
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  12. #252
    Dad gachase21's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    ising is on ice for a little while.
    Man I might use this as a cop out excuse not to finish, this thread was about to be wayyy too much writing


    I might have to start a side discussion with katya in another thread to address some of those points she made, especially misconception of income class percentage disregarding reality vs actual reported bring home wages of tipped employees that highly skews the service sector reporting information , over populating the minimum or near wage population stats and falsely skewing percentage of people at that level , and other various points - I’ve already been back and forth with sillie on the same stuff enough
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  13. #253
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    real talk our health care system would be better off being 100% fee for service than with these existing corrupt insurance companies.
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  14. #254
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Man I might use this as a cop out excuse not to finish, this thread was about to be wayyy too much writing


    I might have to start a side discussion with katya in another thread to address some of those points she made, especially misconception of income class percentage disregarding reality vs actual reported bring home wages of tipped employees that highly skews the service sector reporting information , over populating the minimum or near wage population stats and falsely skewing percentage of people at that level , and other various points - I’ve already been back and forth with sillie on the same stuff enough
    Katya will give you a more informed conversation of all of them, IMO. Your work is not done.
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  15. #255
    No Huevos katya422's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    Man I might use this as a cop out excuse not to finish, this thread was about to be wayyy too much writing


    I might have to start a side discussion with katya in another thread to address some of those points she made, especially misconception of income class percentage disregarding reality vs actual reported bring home wages of tipped employees that highly skews the service sector reporting information , over populating the minimum or near wage population stats and falsely skewing percentage of people at that level , and other various points - I’ve already been back and forth with sillie on the same stuff enough
    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Katya will give you a more informed conversation of all of them, IMO. Your work is not done.
    Aw...thanks guys.

    I can see how tipped positions could skew take home. IDK about the other two factors though as I can't see how that would serve the BLS.
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    Originally Posted by katya422 View Post
    Aw...thanks guys.

    I can see how tipped positions could skew take home. IDK about the other two factors though as I can't see how that would serve the BLS.

    It won’t be In the BLS


    It will be in a gachase21 anecdotal evidence pile....


    The percent of low wage that works tips will be thought , that’s it



    I’ll give you a case example:

    The company I work with on my main job(one I’m a VP with) has about 49,000 employees

    36,00 of those or so are tipped.

    Every single one of those tipped report only minimum wage earnings, with execution of a very small handful that actually choose to report over minimum wage.


    It is their choice what to report.


    So off the bat the payroll reporting we send will show 37,000 employees at minimum wage and make that assumption for household income and other such factors.

    Now those tipped associates bring home a much much higher than minimum wage, and many would have to get a $50,000 or more a year paying job to equate their bring home.

    That’s not even counting the fact they maximize the EIC and other tax items to receive massive refunds , much more than they paid or was withheld, as well as snap, wic, etc

    I have had some I promoted to entry-level management that made around 60k a year their 1st year quit and return to being a tipped associate because it what is equivalent money for less stress and work.


    I recently promoted a manager to a 1st level multi unit position paying around 90k , he said it was the first time since he’s been in management that he actually got paid more than he did as a bartender(that was reported paid min wage)


    Of the remaining 9200 or so hourly wage employees, only the entry level in training are even within a few dollars of min wage., and that’s for just a few weeks.

    All the hourly including tipped associated full benefits , paid vac, etc


    So when we report out info we report 74% of our workforce at minimum wage....


    You could see how this might skew data

    Also with job growth comes low level saturation, however the advancement of wages already existing workers doesn’t really show as I gave an example of here.

    Originally Posted by MtMoriah View Post
    Majority of new jobs pay sub-livable wages. Fact.
    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    well no chit lol


    I take a current employed person

    I used the accelerated deprecation or opportunity zone parts of the tax cut and jobs act to expand my business and open a new location.


    I promate that 1 person to a manager to open it, and 5 of his workers to assistant managers - all net even , so it shows no growth


    we open a new location and hire 30 entry level people.


    So yes entry level is lower, but people are making more, people have a job, people are getting promoted, expansion happens etc etc





    And while I’m here ....


    When it came to some of these better paying jobs , In his 8 year Obama never was able to bring it fully back to the baseline


    Even with the trillions in gimmie money




    Now I included some playful Ecto back and fortbisb with that I.e Obama vs now rubbish - be disregarded that the point of low wage saturation on growth times is there


    We should schedule a convo sometime to discuss this and my fix supply side first Heathcare argument vs your varried more immediate single payer hybrid approach.
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    $250,000 isnt a lot of money. A lot of small businesses file as a single income. And they would get hammered by a substantial increase on a taxable income of $250,000.
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    Reminds me. Another skew in the % bellow 30k income skew is the movement to sole partnership by many self employed daily service workers, as well as some professionals.... and how that can skew the employment and labor force data


    In part due to a change in the tax cut and jobs act

    https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxv...gh-deduction-0

    This can be from your plumber to your lawn service guy to whatever


    Just a few points on that note




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    Originally Posted by gachase21 View Post
    It won’t be In the BLS


    It will be in a gachase21 anecdotal evidence pile....


    The percent of low wage that works tips will be thought , that’s it



    I’ll give you a case example:

    The company I work with on my main job(one I’m a VP with) has about 49,000 employees

    36,00 of those or so are tipped.

    Every single one of those tipped report only minimum wage earnings, with execution of a very small handful that actually choose to report over minimum wage.


    It is their choice what to report.


    So off the bat the payroll reporting we send will show 37,000 employees at minimum wage and make that assumption for household income and other such factors.

    Now those tipped associates bring home a much much higher than minimum wage, and many would have to get a $50,000 or more a year paying job to equate their bring home.

    That’s not even counting the fact they maximize the EIC and other tax items to receive massive refunds , much more than they paid or was withheld, as well as snap, wic, etc

    I have had some I promoted to entry-level management that made around 60k a year their 1st year quit and return to being a tipped associate because it what is equivalent money for less stress and work.


    I recently promoted a manager to a 1st level multi unit position paying around 90k , he said it was the first time since he’s been in management that he actually got paid more than he did as a bartender(that was reported paid min wage)


    Of the remaining 9200 or so hourly wage employees, only the entry level in training are even within a few dollars of min wage., and that’s for just a few weeks.

    All the hourly including tipped associated full benefits , paid vac, etc


    So when we report out info we report 74% of our workforce at minimum wage....


    You could see how this might skew data

    Also with job growth comes low level saturation, however the advancement of wages already existing workers doesn’t really show as I gave an example of here.





    Now I included some playful Ecto back and fortbisb with that I.e Obama vs now rubbish - be disregarded that the point of low wage saturation on growth times is there


    We should schedule a convo sometime to discuss this and my fix supply side first Heathcare argument vs your varried more immediate single payer hybrid approach.
    Hey, didn't forget ya. I did however pick up a novel last night that I became engrossed in. And then today the weather here was too nice to be parked on the computer.

    I do see how tipped positions skew the data. The tax issue is less clear to me though I did read the article at the link. Are you saying that some of these small business owners would report their income as under $30K due to this law? I would think their gross would be reported, no?

    On healthcare supply is definitely an issue. I'm just not sure that it is the kind of supply problem that can be addressed sufficiently by simple market forces.

    There seems to be a somewhat artificial restraint of supply of physicians. Pharmaceuticals are an entire topic on their own. And I don't know that the market can be relied on to provide an essential level of service to smaller rural communities.

    My last job was actually working at the corporate level for a larger non-profit healthcare provider in North Texas. I wouldn't say I have any special expertise from the experience, but I do remember them discussing expansion plans and the optimum distribution of expensive equipment for a metro area now pushing towards 8M people.

    I can see some value in that kind of planning on a higher level of some kind.

    Right now I'm for bed though.
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    Originally Posted by Stizzel View Post
    Liberals: Our free market healthcare sucks!
    Also liberals: Well tbh our healthcare is already full of socialism so why not add some more?
    How is USA's healthcare market 'free'?

    - Prices are NOT transparent. Brb going to hospital, then getting bill.
    - Barrier to entry is high, due to the intrinsic nature of medicine.
    - Information is not transparent. Most people don't understand medicine and various complications.
    - People are generally forced to take whatever insurance their employer provides them. When was the last time you heard of a regular person turning down their employer's insurance?

    And don't tell me, I bet your solution is to deregulate things. No need to have an MD to perform surgery. Free market always works right? The only thing republicucks understand (or don't understand).

    The only thing free about it is how free pharma companies are able to jack up drug prices to whatever the want.
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    ising is on ice for a little while.
    Rocker snap again?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Rocker snap again?
    Looks like it. lol
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    So the former Yang supporters are now Bernie supporters?
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