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  1. #61
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Lmao touché, and I respect the edit.
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  2. #62
    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    ^^^ Solid response by Sooby. This is the type of engagement I would expect on a nutrition subsection of the world's largest bodybuilding forum.



    The "utility of advice" becomes pertinent when we're talking about stickies. When new people come here the stickies are the first impression they get about how this place operates. So, with that in mind, my question still stands:

    Why venerate calorie balance as the only manner by which weight can be changed, and then turn around and actively ridicule the primary methods by which calorie imbalance can actually be achieved and maintained by a living human being?

    Instead of saying "those methods don't matter because of calories", you all should be saying "those methods are great because of calories". By stickying the former, and never even whispering the latter, you are causing people to abandon methods that could actually help them.
    I mean this is literally just 1 thread of the 1000s of threads here discussing nutrition lol... I'm sure the stickies and the information there address things more in depth. I don't really see people ridiculing the methods itself, just the false understanding/claims and knowledge of it. People are always free to ask questions.

    However the methods mentioned aren't great for everybody. Fasting isn't for everybody, keto isn't for everybody. What this forum advocates is a more moderate and sustainable way of losing weight rather than people flocking to diets, it not working and then searching for the next fad diet to hop on. What people don't realize is that you can still eat your McDonalds, your ice-cream, chit normal people fuking eat and enjoy and you can still lose weight, as long as you consider how much calories you are consuming.

    You can say chit like "avoid all processed foods". While that may work for a certain period, I will argue for the vast majority of the population that this is not sustainable at all and puts into people's heads the erroneous belief that these foods are bad and should be avoided at all costs. Less extremes and more moderation. Having a person understand that your weight is a direct reflection of the amount of calories you consume is the first part of understanding. From there, a personalized diet can be made to fit whatever goal needs to be achieved.
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  3. #63
    Registered User XinXom's Avatar
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    " I think that some methods are more practical" -That's great but your anecdotally based opinions are not worthy of sticky status

    "Obese people can achieve and maintain significant weight loss with standard calorie reduction alone. False" - Well you would be wrong plenty of obese people lose weight on standard restriction based diets.

    "Show me any evidence for it ever having worked. And then compare that crappy evidence with the mountains of success stories that happen with the fad diets." First of all logical fallacy see "shifting the burden of proof." Second logical fallacy Hyperbole as you obviously are aware it is possible. Then you knowing what you just said is hyperbole follow up with "no don't show me how what i just said is obviously wrong" and your support is a non supported claim "that people say fad diets are the best" and you think that is sufficient evidence?


    "Whoa. You're saying there is an easier way to get into a deficit then NOT EVEN EATING ANYTHING AT ALL??? Lmao sometimes you don't even realize what you are saying." Here you are being intentionally obtuse to the fact that adherence to fasting can be difficult followed by another strawman for good measure.

    You still have conveniently failed to address the fact that no one said these strategies don't work. Failed to address the fact that different strategies work for different people. You are not arguing in good faith intentionally misinterpreting what people say. Your reasoning seems to be something along the lines of "people are stupid and will take things you say out of context thus we should not give out good information that has any chance of being misinterpreted and causing them to not try the strategies I think work best". If that is the case its obviously not a sustainable position.
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  4. #64
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    However the methods mentioned aren't great for everybody. Fasting isn't for everybody, keto isn't for everybody. What this forum advocates is a more moderate and sustainable way of losing weight rather than people flocking to diets, it not working and then searching for the next fad diet to hop on. What people don't realize is that you can still eat your McDonalds, your ice-cream, chit normal people fuking eat and enjoy and you can still lose weight, as long as you consider how much calories you are consuming.

    You can say chit like "avoid all processed foods". While that may work for a certain period, I will argue for the vast majority of the population that this is not sustainable at all and puts into people's heads the erroneous belief that these foods are bad and should be avoided at all costs. Less extremes and more moderation. Having a person understand that your weight is a direct reflection of the amount of calories you consume is the first part of understanding. From there, a personalized diet can be made to fit whatever goal needs to be achieved.
    It's another great point you're making, and as a lean person I can definitely relate to what you're saying. My objection, however, is on behalf of the obese. In my experience, most of them have tried moderation many times and failed. The only things that seem to actually work are the fads.

    It's striking to me that lean people never seem to adopt fad diets. Since they are lean, they have the benefit of being able to moderate their diets, so why bother with some bizarre protocol, right? Obese people, however, seem to flock to the fads specifically because moderation has failed them over and over, so now they are desperate and willing to try anything. I think this effect is what causes this sub-forum (dominated by very lean people) to be more in favor of moderation and less in favor of any type of fad. I worry that it makes overweight people feel like they can't relate to the information, or that it's just white noise.
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  5. #65
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    In my experience, most of them have tried moderation many times and failed.
    Explain said experience please.

    I've been obese from a BF perspective (over 25%) and all I did was reduce calories and workout. Easiest thing in the world...
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  6. #66
    I love my power hour MrCarrot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    My objection, however, is on behalf of the obese. In my experience, most of them have tried moderation many times and failed. The only things that seem to actually work are the fads.
    The problem I see frequently is someone attempting to eat better and not losing weight, but having no real clue about calories.

    I've had 16 stone men telling me they're eating 1200 calories a day and not losing weight (impossible). I've had someone say they eat nothing but fruit, whilst fish and chips are cooking in the oven behind them lol.

    In my opinion the average Joe has no idea how, nor any inclination, to track their calories. Rather than weighing foods and doing calculations, which "is too much trouble", it's easier to say, "I'm giving up bread because the internet said it makes you fat."

    I'm also not convinced the fad diets work because the few people I know that have been on them, might have lost weight initially, but they're now fatter than ever.
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  7. #67
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    XinXom - happy to engage with you, but please for God's sake use the [QUOTE] function.

    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Explain said experience please.

    I've been obese from a BF perspective (over 25%) and all I did was reduce calories and workout. Easiest thing in the world...
    Interesting. Not trying to offend or downplay your personal experience, but didn't you develop an eating disorder in the process of practicing moderation? If so, that would indicate just how much of an outlier one must be in order to succeed. Either way, good on you for making it happen. That's awesome.

    As for my experience, well I know a lot of fat people lol. Don't we all, unfortunately...
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  8. #68
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    We're conversing on this because I think that some methods are more practical than others for achieving calorie deficit and subsequent sustainment of the weight loss. I'm defending those methods on behalf of the people who need them the most.
    This blows my mind. You truly believe that standard calorie reduction is the easiest method to adhere to? Why then, since it has been preached for decades, is it still just as useless as ever for the treatment of obesity?

    I would almost go as far as to make the following contribution to our list:
    • "Obese people can achieve and maintain significant weight loss with standard calorie reduction alone. False"
    Show me any evidence for it ever having worked. And then compare that crappy evidence with the mountains of success stories that happen with the fad diets.
    So now we are look at a complex situation of obesity and you are coming to the primitive belief that one factor is the sole relation to the cause of it. OK so lets look at fasting the main stream idea of IF has only been around in the 2000's by Martin Berkhan and Keto diet was designed in 1920's but only for medical procedures of seizures and really was only popularised as a diet when the Atkins was introduced in 1972.

    Now you say that obesity is not being helped by calorie restriction but if I follow the same idiotic way your mind works I could say that since 1970 obesity has rapidly increased and since then endless amounts of fad diets have been introduced and guess what none have made it better. Is that the cause based on your logic I guess so?



    I can't carry on communicating with someone has as simple mind as you who can't understand the complexity of such an issue to then simply relate it to the fact calorie restriction use hasn't reduced obesity.

    As for evidence I don't really need to produce anything as simply how did humans lose weight before fad diets exists? Let me think they ate less no fasts, no keto.

    What next shall we recommend next diets that have the letter X as the first letter now that would cause weight loss I guess I have just invented the perfect weight loss plan. Adherence would suck but hey never mind its a fad diet it must work as we need complex cr*p to lose weight as eating less is so difficult.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 02-10-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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  9. #69
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post

    Interesting. Not trying to offend or downplay your personal experience, but didn't you develop an eating disorder in the process of practicing moderation? If so, that would indicate just how much of an outlier one must be in order to succeed. Either way, good on you for making it happen. That's awesome.

    As for my experience, well I know a lot of fat people lol. Don't we all, unfortunately...
    \

    My eating disorder didn't come into play until later after a prolonged duration of restriction. When I lost my first 50% of the weight I dropped, I was perfectly healthy, etc. Later on following some bad life events, it spiraled into something else entirely. But that's kind of besides the point, because the reason I lost the weight is the same: basic energy intake change and exercise.

    As far as your experience, well, I'm not sure your 'knowing fat people' makes for a strong case to support your comments.

    How does knowing a lot of fat people mean you know how most people will most effectively lose weight? Did you personally train them and manage their diets? Did you observe their activities in a controlled setting? If not, why would it be reasonable to base your conclusions on such a tiny sample size? Seems like very, very flawed logic.
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  10. #70
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    The problem I see frequently is someone attempting to eat better and not losing weight, but having no real clue about calories.

    I've had 16 stone men telling me they're eating 1200 calories a day and not losing weight (impossible). I've had someone say they eat nothing but fruit, whilst fish and chips are cooking in the oven behind them lol.

    In my opinion the average Joe has no idea how, nor any inclination, to track their calories. Rather than weighing foods and doing calculations, which "is too much trouble", it's easier to say, "I'm giving up bread because the internet said it makes you fat."

    I'm also not convinced the fad diets work because the few people I know that have been on them, might have lost weight initially, but they're now fatter than ever.
    I agree that the vast majority of fat people are going to become fatter as a result of any type of diet. That's the sad statistical truth. However, when I DO see or hear about a fat person losing 50+ pounds and then keeping it off, it almost always is the result of finding some gimmick that worked for them.

    Either way, the calorie thing has taken on a life of its own. Since it was more of a focus of hardyboysare's #15-20, I do regret that it's become the focus (nobody disagreed with or commented on my other concerns). I probably should have just said that I disagree with #3, 11, and 14 and left it at that.
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  11. #71
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    However, when I DO see or hear about a fat person losing 50+ pounds and then keeping it off, it almost always is the result of finding some gimmick that worked for them.
    Gimmicks can work in the short term, they are almost never sustainable, permanent solutions.
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  12. #72
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    Myth 44: Omega 6 is unhealthy. The ratio of Omega 3:6 matters!

    This idea comes from observational studies with limited sample sizes. What the studies didn't account for is that the Omega 3:6 ratio tends to be a proxy for diet quality. Other studies that did account for this and used much larger sample sizes have shown that higher intakes of Omega 6 are consistently associated with better CVD outcomes.

    Conclusions

    This advisory was undertaken to summarize the current evidence on the consumption of omega-6 PUFAs, particularly LA, and CHD risk. Aggregate data from randomized trials, case-control and cohort studies, and long-term animal feeding experiments indicate that the consumption of at least 5% to 10% of energy from omega-6 PUFAs reduces the risk of CHD relative to lower intakes. The data also suggest that higher intakes appear to be safe and may be even more beneficial (as part of a low–saturated-fat, low-cholesterol diet). In summary, the AHA supports an omega-6 PUFA intake of at least 5% to 10% of energy in the context of other AHA lifestyle and dietary recommendations. To reduce omega-6 PUFA intakes from their current levels would be more likely to increase than to decrease risk for CHD.
    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full...aha.108.191627
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  13. #73
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Myth 44: Omega 6 is unhealthy. The ratio of Omega 3:6 matters!

    This idea comes from observational studies with limited sample sizes. What the studies didn't account for is that the Omega 3:6 ratio tends to be a proxy for diet quality. Other studies that did account for this and used much larger sample sizes have shown that higher intakes of Omega 6 are consistently associated with better CVD outcomes.

    Here's a good read for those that like to know more:


    [url]https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.108.191627[url]
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  14. #74
    Harsh Truth Distributor xsquid99's Avatar
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    #Whatever - If you want to lose weight you have to eat "clean".
    All it takes is consistency, effort, proper nutrition, good programming, and TIME.
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  15. #75
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    (nobody disagreed with or commented on my other concerns).
    I can assure you many people disagree with many of your points. However, they've grown tired correcting you because they know how you operate. You typically ignore all the science that goes against your ideas.

    This is the problem with many of your positions: you prefer speculative theories over the preponderance of outcomes from controlled studies. If you'd preferred the latter you'd have very little issue with Mr. Carrot's list.

    Will you deny what I just said? You probably will. But anyone in doubt can simply look back at your theories to confuse the body with varying calorie intakes or confusing the body with unexpectedly adding dextrose to the post workout protein shake.

    The one thing that surprises me most is that your reputation score is still in green. Unfortunately I seem to only be allowed to take away some of those points once every few months. Keep in mind my negging isn't meant personal, I just try to help uninformed people make good decisions about which advice they should follow and which not.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Damn dude where you been? Haven't seen you on much lately.
    Traveling at the moment so usually don't have much time to participate. Might keep an eye on this thread though.
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  17. #77
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Traveling at the moment so usually don't have much time to participate. Might keep an eye on this thread though.
    Gotcha.

    Safe travels.
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  18. #78
    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Ok two of the questions you are debating make no sense.

    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    #11 Protein can't be converted into fat. False.

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine
    This one is a real stretch. It's incredibly inefficient for the body to convert protein to triglyceride. It's orders of magnitude more likely that it will oxidize it, use it for constructive purposes, or pee it out.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3777747/

    Yes protein is the more effective macro nutrient of them all but an excess of calories involving protein (past TEF) will still be used as stored energy. But at the end of the day the statement protein can't be converted to fat is false.

    The key finding of this study is that calories are more important than protein while consuming excess amounts of energy with respect to increases in body fat. This study examined the hypothesis proposed by Stock10 that overeating a low or high protein diet would produce less weight gain than overeating a normal protein diet. The extra energy provided was high relative to the usual life excesses of caloric intake, but matched other studies on overfeeding in the scientific literature.10–19 The low protein diet group gained less weight than the normal or high protein groups when extra calories were eaten.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25886710

    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    #14 If you don't eat enough, your body will go into starvation mode where it clings on to fat and only burns muscle. False.

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine
    I think this one is true for obese people. They have metabolically become "fat trappers" in the sense that they have reduced fat oxidation capabilities. When energy deprivation becomes severe, their metabolism thinks "oh **** this is bad I REALLY need to burn sugar right now, screw trying to mess around with this fatty acid stuff." They will preferentially break down lean tissue for gluconeogenesis rather than break down fat tissue for lipolysis. Their metabolism considers lipolysis to be a waste of time because downstream beta oxidation never materializes anyways. Eventually it says "forget it--just leave the fat alone".
    Really? I don't even know what you have dreamed up here lol

    Obese people go into starvation mode so what obese can't lose weight when they eat a low calorie diet. OK sunshine, and just read above you just claimed that the body wouldn't utilise protein food sources for energy storage but now you are claiming it will rather break down lean amino acids for energy use then fat in the obese???

    If its ineffective to store as its 'wasteful' wouldn't it be the same for utilising stored protein (lean mass) for energy function.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 02-10-2020 at 04:42 PM.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Interesting. Not trying to offend or downplay your personal experience, but didn't you develop an eating disorder in the process of practicing moderation? If so, that would indicate just how much of an outlier one must be in order to succeed. Either way, good on you for making it happen. That's awesome.

    As for my experience, well I know a lot of fat people lol. Don't we all, unfortunately...
    I don’t even know the last time I’ve said this, but NEGGED. I encourage all other participants ITT to do the same. I’m tired of this insufferable broscience. Save it for your Marine buddies, bro.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I don’t even know the last time I’ve said this, but NEGGED. I encourage all other participants ITT to do the same. I’m tired of this insufferable broscience. Save it for your Marine buddies, bro.
    Id rather see BANNED next to his name. People come to the forum to learn about Fat Loss and guys like this just confuse people trying to learn. This was shaping up to be a good thread only to be hijacked with nonsense that unfortunately went on way too long.
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    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    It's unfortunate that a good thread gets derailed by someone attempting to sound informed but proves the opposite just to hear himself speak.
    People come to the forum to learn about Fat Loss and guys like this just confuse people trying to learn.
    100% agreed.

    Originally Posted by Tommy W. View Post
    Id rather see BANNED next to his name.
    Banning is a bit too rigorous in my opinion.

    @rtpmarine, I know you want to start discussions that go deeper into the nuances of certain topics. Why not start an appropriate thread to have those discussions? This thread is clearly aimed at beginners trying to learn the basics.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    @rtpmarine, I know you want to start discussions that go deeper into the nuances of certain topics. Why not start an appropriate thread to have those discussions? This thread is clearly aimed at beginners trying to learn the basics.
    The beginners are the exact people my original response was intended for. Obviously debating these points with you all (the forum regulars) would be a waste of time. It's not a waste of time, however, to call out the nuances where I see 'em, so that someone in the future might be inclined to dig deeper.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    The beginners are the exact people my original response was intended for. Obviously debating these points with you all (the forum regulars) would be a waste of time. It's not a waste of time, however, to call out the nuances where I see 'em, so that someone in the future might be inclined to dig deeper.
    I whole-hearted disagree with this.

    A beginner needs to focus on the basics of nutrition, much like someone with zero knowledge of mathematics doesn't start with advanced calculus.

    Similarly, it makes no sense to hand a beginner a 100 page book about the meticulous nuance of hormonal regulation in response to micro and macro-nutrients if their single goal is to lose bodyfat... a person can lose bodyfat and gain muscle as a beginner with very basic knowledge, and then as they progress build their knowledge of the nuance over time.

    Giving too much of this 'nuance' in the beginning is - in my experience and observation - precisely why so many people turned to the IF/fasting protocols because of all the 'science' they saw/heard: "Oh it's because of fat oxidation... it's the GH response..." etc..etc...

    No... that is not why any of those methods works to aid in fat loss or anything else. People end up missing the forest for the trees and spiraling into dogmatic thinking which is very hard to un-learn after months or years of adherence. People carry on assuming what they're doing is THE ONLY way, they believe it works for the wrong reasons, and it keeps them in constant fear of trying new - and potentially more effective - approaches to eating.

    Fast-forward months or years later and the same people STILL assume the reason their dietary schedule works is because of all these silly, unproven assertions made by social-media influencers to make a buck off of their ignorance.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 02-10-2020 at 06:39 PM.
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    Apologies if both sides are actually enjoying this debate and want it to continue, but if this or another thread like it is ever stickied, would it be possible to edit the original post to add some "Note" along the lines of below, immediately before going into the list?

    NOTE: This list is intended to clarify that the statements as written are false. It is not intended to state that there may not be other benefits (or risks as applicable) to the foods and methods referenced therein.

    I know it shouldn't have to be added, but if it would be a compromise that could have kept what could have been an informative list (or future lists/posts) from going off the tracks into all of the above, it might be worth adding the clarification if it would appease any who feel the info may be misleading. This could have been a useful post otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    #14 If you don't eat enough, your body will go into starvation mode where it clings on to fat and only burns muscle. False.

    Really? I don't even know what you have dreamed up here lol

    Obese people go into starvation mode so what obese can't lose weight when they eat a low calorie diet. OK sunshine, and just read above you just claimed that the body wouldn't utilise protein food sources for energy storage but now you are claiming it will rather break down lean amino acids for energy use then fat in the obese???

    If its ineffective to store as its 'wasteful' wouldn't it be the same for utilising stored protein (lean mass) for energy function.
    The difference is that turning protein into fat requires systemic energy overload i.e. calorie surplus. That's a radically different metabolic situation than systemic energy deprivation. Your response reminded me of where I first got this idea, a book you all will love to hate:



    As for the points about converting protein to fat, thanks for the links--I wasn't aware of some of this stuff. Looks like I probably was wrong.
    Last edited by rtpmarine; 02-10-2020 at 06:48 PM.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    The beginners are the exact people my original response was intended for. Obviously debating these points with you all (the forum regulars) would be a waste of time. It's not a waste of time, however, to call out the nuances where I see 'em, so that someone in the future might be inclined to dig deeper.
    A beginner hearing anything past CICO will be way too confused. As they become more and more knowledgeable and wade through the"nuances" that is just noise for the most part come to the conclusion that CICO is really 99% of what you need to know.
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    Apologies if both sides are actually enjoying this debate and want it to continue, but if this or another thread like it is ever stickied, would it be possible to edit the original post to add some "Note" along the lines of below, immediately before going into the list?

    NOTE: This list is intended to clarify that the statements as written are false. It is not intended to state that there may not be other benefits (or risks as applicable) to the foods and methods referenced therein.

    I know it shouldn't have to be added, but if it would be a compromise that could have kept what could have been an informative list (or future lists/posts) from going off the tracks into all of the above, it might be worth adding the clarification if it would appease any who feel the info may be misleading. This could have been a useful post otherwise.
    ****ing solid, mate. Reps on recharge, as always.
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    I’m a newbie. This thread has gotten too complex for me. So ain’t even reading past first few sentences before I’m lost.

    To keep it simple...

    I’ve tried loosing weight many times and it never worked. Only time it worked was when I found bb.com and learnt I need to burn more calories than I eat. (Keep a slight deficit - 1lb per week fat loss)

    To keep the muscle eat 1g protien per lb of body weight and lift weights hard.

    This is what has worked. Calorie counting. Eating less calories than burning.

    That’s it. I did very low fat (about 45g) and that was not good 0.5g fat per lb of bodyweight is also good imo. Rest in carbs.
    **^^ Work hard AND more importantly, work smart ^^**
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    The difference is that turning protein into fat requires systemic energy overload i.e. calorie surplus. That's a radically different metabolic situation than systemic energy deprivation. Your response reminded me of where I first got this idea, a book you all will love to hate:

    [img]https://i.imgur.com/gVJZoEG.jpg[img]

    As for the points about converting protein to fat, thanks for the links--I wasn't aware of some of this stuff. Looks like I probably was wrong.
    Good to know. I'll let all my obese mice friends in on the secret.
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    Actually protein not being converted to fat was the only thing that didn’t belong on the list. The rest of the list are all myths.

    So among rtpmarines usual gibberish there was actually something right.
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