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  1. #61
    Registered User Judgment's Avatar
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    I'm hoping by "shrugs" you don't mean those absolutely retarded, useless barbell shrugs I see everyone do at 76 mph? Every one that does that has underdeveloped traps like a motherfukker. Also, where's the work for your rear-delts?
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  2. #62
    Registered User WhatifI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LargePeter View Post
    8 sets for back, 6 for chest and 18 for arms after hitting back and chest?

    LMFAO
    It's not 18 for arms, you're counting indirect work.

    Originally Posted by Judgment View Post
    I'm hoping by "shrugs" you don't mean those absolutely retarded, useless barbell shrugs I see everyone do at 76 mph? Every one that does that has underdeveloped traps like a motherfukker. Also, where's the work for your rear-delts?
    I bend forward when doing the lateral raises, also when I shrug I pull back and retract my scapulae. I was told that, these combined, would hit my rear delts.

    Originally Posted by alejo2308 View Post
    OP, I'm gonna take a few minutes here to explain to you the things you need to know.

    The source material you linked on your first post is from RP (Renaissance Periodization), a coaching team founded by Nick Shaw and Mike Israetel. Mike Israetel is their Chief Sports Scientists. He has a PhD in Sport Physiology, and has competed in both powerlifting and bodybuilding. However, his main "thing" is his research. He has, as a coach, as the chief of science in RP, and as an athlete, gathered lots of data from different trainees (including himself and his training partners) and has developed some volume landmarks that are regarded as fairly accurate. Now, by volume I mean sets of 5-30 reps, done with 50-100% of your 1rm, taken 0-4 reps from true concentric failure. Here are the landmarks he has developed:

    1. Maintenance volume (MV) - the minimum amount of sets you need to perform in a week, per body part, to keep your muscles the same size as they are right now.
    2. Minimum effective volume (MEV) - the minimum amount of sets you need to perform in a week, per body part, to get your muscles to respond to training and grow.
    3. Maximum adaptive volume (MAV) - this is a range, not a specific amount of sets. It's the range in which you will see the BEST adaptive response from your muscles. Ideally you'd wanna always be in this range, with a few caveats.
    4. Maximum recoverable volume (MRV) - this is the maximum amount of sets you could perform in a week, per body part, that will allow your body to recover. If you go over your MRV, by definition, your body won't be able to recover and your performance will worsen over time, and you could even risk injury and muscular atrophy.

    Now, for every person those volume landmarks vary. In the link you provided in the original post, Mike posts guidelines for each body part. However, if you read his articles carefully, you'll realize he says that those are GENERAL guidelines. Experience, trial and error, and autorregulation are your friends here. He may say that the MAV for biceps is 12-25 sets (random numbers, I don't remember the range exactly), but for some people their MAV may be 8-15 sets or 15-30 sets. You have to play around with your volume to figure out what works best for you under your current conditions.

    Let's talk about periodization. Mike (and RP in general) suggests you structure your training using mesocycles and macrocycles. A mesocycle is a training block that generally lasts 4-6 weeks. A macrocycle is made up of several mesocycles which are oriented towards the same goal. For instance, you could run an arm-emphasis macrocycle. Or you could run a massing macrocycle. Or you could run a strength-focused macrocycle. Over time (generally over the course of a macrocycle), you'll want to take your volume from close to the bottom of your MAV (generally speaking, I'll talk about the caveats later) to the top of that range, getting close to or reaching your MRV. This is done by adding sets to your weekly training little by little, usually adding 1 set per week if you're recovering properly.

    As I said, there are some caveats. First, you have to understand that you don't just have a body part MRV. You also have a total MRV for your entire body. So, for instance, trying to do 20-30 sets of each body part every single week is not gonna be very productive, because your body can only recover from so much training each week. If you want to emphasize your arms and your back, what you should do is reduce the volume for other body parts and get them as close to the bottom of your MAV range (sometimes even going as low as your MV) so that you can do more work for the body parts you want to grow faster. So in this case, you'd increase your volume for biceps, triceps, lats, and upper back; but you'd have to decrease the volume for your chest, hams, quads, glutes, calves, etc. You could do this for a single mesocycle or for an entire macrocycle, depending on your goals.

    Also, your volume requirements will change depending on a few factors. Those factors include (not an exhaustive list btw) stress from your life outside the gym, your current caloric intake (are you bulking, cutting or maintaining?), your daily activity, etc. Your volume needs may go up or down depending on those things, and you have to listen to your body and pay attention to your performance in the gym to be able to regulate this.

    The routine you posted in the OP seems, to me, excessive. I'd suggest you first figure out what your own volume landmarks are, and start every body part at the bottom range of your MAV, maybe even go for your MEV. Then, as you get more experienced and start to understand how your body responds, start to slowly add in 1 set per week for body parts that seem to be recovering very well (you'll be able to tell because you'll be able to get PRs on movements that use those muscles; for instance, if you're constantly making PRs on leg press and your quads never get sore from them, you should be able to add in more sets over time).

    Finally, don't forget that every mesocycle ends with a deload. A deload is a week in which you do half of your volume. That is, you take it easy for a week, use lighter weights, do less reps and sets, and let your body recover from the hard training you did the previous 3-5 weeks.

    I personally don't use this training style, but many people do with great success. If you have any other questions you can PM me.
    Okay, I'm not looking to switch up my routine a bunch of times. I just want one routine that I progress through by adding weight when I can. The MAVs and MEVs of Renaissance Periodization don't allow for that?
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by Judgment View Post
    I'm hoping by "shrugs" you don't mean those absolutely retarded, useless barbell shrugs I see everyone do at 76 mph? Every one that does that has underdeveloped traps like a motherfukker. Also, where's the work for your rear-delts?
    Also, no these aren't rapid fire shrugs. These are slow and with full contraction. I'm trying to do exactly like the kneeling shrug in this video (first exercise).

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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    It's not 18 for arms, you're counting indirect work.



    I bend forward when doing the lateral raises, also when I shrug I pull back and retract my scapulae. I was told that, these combined, would hit my rear delts.



    Okay, I'm not looking to switch up my routine a bunch of times. I just want one routine that I progress through by adding weight when I can. The MAVs and MEVs of Renaissance Periodization don't allow for that?
    The routine itself doesn't really change. You can keep the same exercises in for as long as you want. You just vary the amount of sets you do depending on your recovery. But again, it may not be for everyone. I'm just telling you that staying at really high volumes for long periods of time may not be in your best interest if you wanna grow as much as possible.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    This is thrice a week. I'm going for as close to maximum adaptive volume as I can. Volume goals taken from this.

    https://renaissanceperiodization.com...e-central-hub/

    Pull Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Neutral Grip Pull Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Chin Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Dumbell Rows (2 sets of 10, each side)

    Incline Dumbbell Bench Press (3 sets of 10)
    Decline Dumbbell Bench Press (3 sets of 10)

    Dumbbell Curl (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Overhead Press (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Overhead Tricep Extension (6 sets of 10)

    Dumbbell Lateral Raise (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Shrug (6 sets of 10)
    44 sets of total work not to include warm-ups.
    If you're using any amount of weight to actually make a difference, this workout will take 90 minutes minimum and that's only if you're focused and taking 2 minutes rest maximum between each set.

    Also, if you read Israetel, he tells you not to start at MAV because you'll plateau quicker. He recommends working your way up by adding volume each week.
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  6. #66
    Registered User WhatifI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alejo2308 View Post
    The routine itself doesn't really change. You can keep the same exercises in for as long as you want. You just vary the amount of sets you do depending on your recovery. But again, it may not be for everyone. I'm just telling you that staying at really high volumes for long periods of time may not be in your best interest if you wanna grow as much as possible.
    Originally Posted by The_Standard View Post
    44 sets of total work not to include warm-ups.

    Also, if you read Israetel, he tells you not to start at MAV because you'll plateau quicker. He recommends working your way up by adding volume each week.
    I'd like to not change volume. Except for pull-ups. I'm trying to increase my pull-ups. Other than that, by "not change the routine" I mean don't change anything at all except for how much weight I lift.
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  7. #67
    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    why is everything sets of 10? and why 6 sets for the most fluff and useless chit?

    you're better off running something a lot simpler and easier to follow. the amount of volume you need is individual, there arent any hard rules while there are ballpark figures

    start with less sets, but focus on making each set count and being more intense. train 1-3 reps shy of failure on compound movements and maybe 0-2 on isolation movements.

    dumbbell shrugs are probably the most useless exercise in the history of lifting and don't deserve to be apart of any routine aside if MAYBE you are supersetting it.
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  8. #68
    Registered User WhatifI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    why is everything sets of 10? and why 6 sets for the most fluff and useless chit?

    you're better off running something a lot simpler and easier to follow. the amount of volume you need is individual, there arent any hard rules while there are ballpark figures

    start with less sets, but focus on making each set count and being more intense. train 1-3 reps shy of failure on compound movements and maybe 0-2 on isolation movements.

    dumbbell shrugs are probably the most useless exercise in the history of lifting and don't deserve to be apart of any routine aside if MAYBE you are supersetting it.
    Why is everything sets of 10? Because that's the rep range for hypertrophy. 8 to 12. 10 is right in the middle.

    Why 6 sets? Because I was trying to hit the maximum adaptive volume (as I understood it) for each muscle. Taken from that Renaissance Periodization site. This workout, thrice a week, lands me within the maximum adaptive volume range for each muscle. As I understood it at first. MAV for Chest = 12 to 20 sets per week. 6 sets per workout gives me 18 per week. MAV for Biceps = 14 to 20 sets per week. 6 sets per workout gives me 18 per week. And so on.
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  9. #69
    Registered User Beararms's Avatar
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    Drop the amount of sets on some of those. Pyramid the weight up, dropset the last set. Keep the intensity high. 3 to 4 sets.
    Last edited by Beararms; 02-06-2020 at 10:01 AM.
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  10. #70
    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    Why is everything sets of 10? Because that's the rep range for hypertrophy. 8 to 12. 10 is right in the middle.

    Why 6 sets? Because I was trying to hit the maximum adaptive volume (as I understood it) for each muscle. Taken from that Renaissance Periodization site. This workout, thrice a week, lands me within the maximum adaptive volume range for each muscle. As I understood it at first. MAV for Chest = 12 to 20 sets per week. 6 sets per workout gives me 18 per week. MAV for Biceps = 14 to 20 sets per week. 6 sets per workout gives me 18 per week. And so on.
    8-12 being hypertrophy range is a huge oversimplification, if everything is sets of 10 the stimulus you are putting on your muscles are going to get stale really quickly. mix it in with sets of 6, sets of 15. current evidence points to training with a wide variety of rep ranges for hypertrophy and even certain intensities activate muscles differently.

    as far as I am understanding RP which i'm not overly familiar, why are you starting with MAV instead of seeing whether or not starting with MEV will lead to gains. Knowing that will allow you to better structure your workout. Besides those are just very rough numbers, doesn't mean it will apply to yourself personally. Not to mention you need to account for other exercises that indirectly hit the biceps such as pullups/chin-ups and rows. There are diminishing returns. And also as others have stated your 6x10 is probably going to be very light, your first few sets are probably going to be light-ish with the last 2-3 sets being maybe the most difficult. volume isn't everything brah. Don't lift for any less or any more than what you require to make consistent gains.
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  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    I'd like to not change volume. Except for pull-ups. I'm trying to increase my pull-ups. Other than that, by "not change the routine" I mean don't change anything at all except for how much weight I lift.
    Look, man. You seem pretty set on doing that specific routine. If what you want to know is how long it should take you, nobody will be able to answer. We're trying to help you but you're coming across as very adamant. What you're doing, and the believes you seem to hold, are in contention with the very principles you're basing your routine on. Hypertrophy happens in a wide rep range (consensus is 5-30 reps), volume should NOT be static for an intermediate/advanced lifter, and you're going for too much volume. If you do it and it seems to work, keep at it. But taking 4 hours to complete a routine seems pretty wasteful imo. It's time you could spend socializing, being with your family/friends, learning new chit. But again, it's all up to you if you don't wanna take advice.
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  12. #72
    Registered User WhatifI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by alejo2308 View Post
    Look, man. You seem pretty set on doing that specific routine. If what you want to know is how long it should take you, nobody will be able to answer. We're trying to help you but you're coming across as very adamant. What you're doing, and the believes you seem to hold, are in contention with the very principles you're basing your routine on. Hypertrophy happens in a wide rep range (consensus is 5-30 reps), volume should NOT be static for an intermediate/advanced lifter, and you're going for too much volume. If you do it and it seems to work, keep at it. But taking 4 hours to complete a routine seems pretty wasteful imo. It's time you could spend socializing, being with your family/friends, learning new chit. But again, it's all up to you if you don't wanna take advice.
    I don't wanna do this routine, but I do want to do a routine that I don't change rep ranges for. Just the same exercises, same rep ranges, but different weights. Except for pull-ups, which I hope to do more of.
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    i did legs today

    2 sets smith squats 10 and 6 reps
    2 sets hack squats 16 and 12 reps
    2 sets leg press 12 and 20 reps
    3 sets leg extension 12 12 15
    2 sets leg curls 12 and 12
    4 sets calf raises 10 10 ,2 drop sets 10 10 10

    my legs and whole body are Fking wrecked, and im a very advanced lifter.
    If you lift hard and push your limit, it doesnt take much to destroy your muscles.
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    i did legs today

    2 sets smith squats 10 and 6 reps
    2 sets hack squats 16 and 12 reps
    2 sets leg press 12 and 20 reps
    3 sets leg extension 12 12 15
    2 sets leg curls 12 and 12
    4 sets calf raises 10 10 ,2 drop sets 10 10 10

    my legs and whole body are Fking wrecked, and im a very advanced lifter.
    If you lift hard and push your limit, it doesnt take much to destroy your muscles.
    Dat der intensity!
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    Registered User Jestbrah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Beararms View Post
    Dat der intensity!
    that, and been focusing more on 3 count negatives consistent eccentrics and FULLLLLL RoM on everything. I switch through cycles of that and 1-2 count negatives explosive concentrics moving heavier weight.
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    i did legs today

    2 sets smith squats 10 and 6 reps
    2 sets hack squats 16 and 12 reps
    2 sets leg press 12 and 20 reps
    3 sets leg extension 12 12 15
    2 sets leg curls 12 and 12
    4 sets calf raises 10 10 ,2 drop sets 10 10 10

    my legs and whole body are Fking wrecked, and im a very advanced lifter.
    If you lift hard and push your limit, it doesnt take much to destroy your muscles.
    That's 15 sets in one workout just for legs, my workout isn't anywhere near as rough as that.

    Not saying my workout is good, I made this thread specifically so people could say "Don't do that routine, do this other routine instead." I'm looking for a routine that I can do, essentially, forever.
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    Registered User Jestbrah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    That's 15 sets in one workout just for legs, my workout isn't anywhere near as rough as that.

    Not saying my workout is good, I made this thread specifically so people could say "Don't do that routine, do this other routine instead." I'm looking for a routine that I can do, essentially, forever.
    I do 1 quad day a week, i hit 1 hamstring lift on quad day and 1 quad lift on hamstring day
    also counting calves in the amount of sets is stupid, you can work calves out 5 days a week, abs and calves dont count for volume/frequency
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    I don't wanna do this routine, but I do want to do a routine that I don't change rep ranges for. Just the same exercises, same rep ranges, but different weights. Except for pull-ups, which I hope to do more of.
    Have you actually even read the material on the RP website? Israetel would be pissed to find out you're bastardizing his programming this way... And rightly so... People who use "Such & Such" programming but make changes that were never intended in the programming are the ones who end up slandering the programming and saying, "Such & Such" programming doesn't work.
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    Originally Posted by WhatifI View Post
    This is thrice a week. I'm going for as close to maximum adaptive volume as I can. Volume goals taken from this.

    https://renaissanceperiodization.com...e-central-hub/

    Pull Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Neutral Grip Pull Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Chin Ups (2 sets of 10)
    Dumbell Rows (2 sets of 10, each side)

    Incline Dumbbell Bench Press (3 sets of 10)
    Decline Dumbbell Bench Press (3 sets of 10)

    Dumbbell Curl (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Overhead Press (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Overhead Tricep Extension (6 sets of 10)

    Dumbbell Lateral Raise (6 sets of 10)
    Dumbbell Shrug (6 sets of 10)
    This is a lot, man.

    I just lift 2-3 times a week for 20-30min each sesh.

    Have upped it to 5 times a week, but purely because I'm becoming more active.
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    i did legs today

    2 sets smith squats 10 and 6 reps
    2 sets hack squats 16 and 12 reps
    2 sets leg press 12 and 20 reps
    3 sets leg extension 12 12 15
    2 sets leg curls 12 and 12
    4 sets calf raises 10 10 ,2 drop sets 10 10 10

    my legs and whole body are Fking wrecked, and im a very advanced lifter.
    If you lift hard and push your limit, it doesnt take much to destroy your muscles.
    BUt 15 seTz is KnOt Enuff vAhLume 2 gROW!!
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    Originally Posted by 78novacaine View Post
    BUt 15 seTz is KnOt Enuff vAhLume 2 gROW!!
    cant imagine what kind of cuckery responses I would get if i had included my warmup sets, thats a concept unimaginable though to most people
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    i did legs today

    2 sets smith squats 10 and 6 reps
    2 sets hack squats 16 and 12 reps
    2 sets leg press 12 and 20 reps
    3 sets leg extension 12 12 15
    2 sets leg curls 12 and 12
    4 sets calf raises 10 10 ,2 drop sets 10 10 10

    my legs and whole body are Fking wrecked, and im a very advanced lifter.
    If you lift hard and push your limit, it doesnt take much to destroy your muscles.
    I did less than half that many sets yesterday and my legs are rekt and I had a hard time eating for 6 hours later from the nausea haha.
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  23. #83
    Registered User WhatifI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The_Standard View Post
    Have you actually even read the material on the RP website? Israetel would be pissed to find out you're bastardizing his programming this way... And rightly so... People who use "Such & Such" programming but make changes that were never intended in the programming are the ones who end up slandering the programming and saying, "Such & Such" programming doesn't work.
    I have now, and I realize that my path has been misguided. That's why I made this thread, asking what I should be doing if I want a routine that I don't have to change rep ranges for, save for adding weight.

    Originally Posted by 78novacaine View Post
    BUt 15 seTz is KnOt Enuff vAhLume 2 gROW!!
    15 sets thrice a week is more than enough volume to grow. He didn't specify at first that he only did it once a week.

    Also, I never said 15 sets a week wasn't enough. Just that it's not the best amount. The absolute most growth possible.
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