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  1. #91
    Hater of incels Kirra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SmashinYoungVag View Post
    Some of us followed the case closely and know the facts. So no we're not gonna call him a rapist
    I haven't followed the case closely at all, but why would an innocent person write this statement?

    Originally Posted by Kobe
    First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colorado.

    I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.
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  2. #92
    Usuario registrado Ken-O's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MiscInformed View Post
    The thing is, I didn't criticize Kobe at all. I just asked for somebody to tell me what Kobe's actual legacy was. You guys went on the attack. LOL.
    Nobody is attacking you bro, relax. Dont get too emotional srs.

    Kobe's legacy is mainly that hes top 3 basketball players of all time, arguably of course, and he impacted the life of millions one way or another. Das it, just chill. You dont give a fuk about Kobe, thats ok srs.

    Let. people. be.
    "The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
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  3. #93
    Usuario registrado Ken-O's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kirra View Post
    I haven't followed the case closely at all, but why would an innocent person write this statement?
    He literally says "I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual"

    Its right fukin there, on the statement you quoted. Fukin miscers i swear lmao
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  4. #94
    Registered User WestAfrica's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kirra View Post
    I haven't followed the case closely at all, but why would an innocent person write this statement?
    Why would an innocent person make a statement that would end the trial/investigation instead of continuing on the case for years and years while just having to pay the chick some money. Why if you were raped settle for money instead of having the guy rot in jail. How does that even make sense, I was “raped” but if you pay me I won’t testify. Doesn’t the misc talk about sloots gon sloot? Why do people or companies settle outside of court even when innocent? Bc they want the trial to end or save money or better things to do. Kobe was in the middle of a playoff run, the gurl needed to go on slooting.

    Brb accuse someone of rape
    Brb not gonna testify not gonna go to trial
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  5. #95
    World Warrior TypeNirvash's Avatar
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    @MiscInformed

    I posted this earlier ITT, but I think you might want to take a look.

    Originally Posted by TypeNirvash View Post
    A few thoughts as somebody in the insurance industry who regularly deals with "settlements" and the thought processes that lead to them.

    Often a cost analysis is involved for the case, and other cases like it. The analysis typically estimates the cost of defending the case to the fullest extent and compares it against the cost of what similar cases settle for.

    If the analysis indicates that the cost to settle the case would be lesser than the cost to defend, they tend to push for the settlement.

    Usually, taking the case into the court can still lead to the defamation of a client who is innocent, and therefore the push to settle is oftentimes in the benefit of the client for multiple reasons.

    So we can't assume that just because the case was settled, that he is guilty. It means that either of the following statements could be possible:
    -The plaintiff was telling the truth
    -The defendant is telling the truth
    -Neither are telling the full truth
    -The cost to defend outweighs the cost to settle
    -The cost to settle is the same as the cost to defend, but would still prevent further defamation
    -The defence believes that regardless of the client's innocence, the jury has been shown to side with the plaintiff in similar cases even if there is overwhelming evidence to suggest that the plaintiff is lying

    I understand that you have your opinion on what did, or didn't happen. I totally understand that.

    But I don't think it's fair to simply assume guilt because a court case was settled.
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  6. #96
    Registered User elterrible987's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kirra View Post
    I haven't followed the case closely at all, but why would an innocent person write this statement?

    Because the public relations firm that he hired to save his endorsements told him to?

    Why would someone who was raped decline to testify against the accused but take the payout in the civil suit? If Kobe raped you, wouldnt you want him to go to jail for it, or would you just be happy with a check?
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  7. #97
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    i have no problem believing he raped as he was a known power tipper in bb so it would be no different irl, absolutely breaks my heart to know there are so many heartless rape enablers on this forum


    Originally Posted by TypeNirvash View Post
    @MiscInformed

    I posted this earlier ITT, but I think you might want to take a look.
    are you srsly trying to compare a one off case for a man to clear his name to an insurance company taking risk management measures in their line of business?
    Last edited by lolXlol; 01-29-2020 at 01:44 AM.
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  8. #98
    Registered User lolXlol's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by elterrible987 View Post
    Because the public relations firm that he hired to save his endorsements told him to?

    Why would someone who was raped decline to testify against the accused but take the payout in the civil suit? If Kobe raped you, wouldnt you want him to go to jail for it, or would you just be happy with a check?
    cristiano ronaldo is literally on record admitting he raped a woman and she also took a settlement...

    what's you point kid?
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  9. #99
    Registered User Jestbrah's Avatar
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    1) lol at anyone who thinks Kobe did not rape the woman
    2) I personally bring it up because its a solid reason to not mourn his loss and it does discredit his overall image of a "Great person" Theres a line to draw in what is enough to "accept" a rapist
    3) heres the facts of the Rape case

    -bloody panties from victim
    -same blood on Kobes shirt
    - Kobe claims at first " never met this woman in my life"
    - Kobe later claims "ok i gave her a tour of my house then we were making out and had sex"
    - Kove later claims "ok she never gave express consent"
    - girl has Kobe's dna inside her vagina
    - girl says she did not want to have sex and resisted once he started initiating sex
    - girl had bruises on her neck
    - prosecution states the case was aiming at a very strong chance of conviction before witness revoked her testimony
    - Kobe settles "non disclosure" agreement with victim, including an apology and monetary exchange.


    you can argue all day and night that she was just after money and only doing it because he was a celebrity, but he got caught up in multiple lies and an innocent man of high character doesnt settle and agree to an apology. He did what was necessary to stay in the NBA because if he had been tried he would have been banned. If he was convicted she wouldnt have gained anything monetarily from him, but she was given the chance to take a crap load of money and an apology, which is better to most people than just a judge or jury deciding someone was guilty.
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  10. #100
    Registered User MiscInformed's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TypeNirvash View Post
    @MiscInformed

    I posted this earlier ITT, but I think you might want to take a look.
    I didn't claim he was a "rapist".

    I don't know if he raped her. I don't know if it was consensual. I don't care either. He sounds like he was a habitual philanderer then. She sounds like a certifiable nutcase. They're the only two who know what happened in that room.
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  11. #101
    Usuario registrado Ken-O's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    1) lol at anyone who thinks Kobe did not rape the woman
    2) I personally bring it up because its a solid reason to not mourn his loss and it does discredit his overall image of a "Great person" Theres a line to draw in what is enough to "accept" a rapist
    3) heres the facts of the Rape case

    -bloody panties from victim
    -same blood on Kobes shirt
    - Kobe claims at first " never met this woman in my life"
    - Kobe later claims "ok i gave her a tour of my house then we were making out and had sex"
    - Kove later claims "ok she never gave express consent"
    - girl has Kobe's dna inside her vagina
    - girl says she did not want to have sex and resisted once he started initiating sex
    - girl had bruises on her neck
    - prosecution states the case was aiming at a very strong chance of conviction before witness revoked her testimony
    - Kobe settles "non disclosure" agreement with victim, including an apology and monetary exchange.


    you can argue all day and night that she was just after money and only doing it because he was a celebrity, but he got caught up in multiple lies and an innocent man of high character doesnt settle and agree to an apology. He did what was necessary to stay in the NBA because if he had been tried he would have been banned. If he was convicted she wouldnt have gained anything monetarily from him, but she was given the chance to take a crap load of money and an apology, which is better to most people than just a judge or jury deciding someone was guilty.
    This has been done to death on the last 3 days, read any of the other posts about it or let it go already. Forget about the alleged rape and shut up. Dont want to mourn Kobe then dont, but just know that he wasnt the only one that died, 8 other people were there.

    Time to stop posting.
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  12. #102
    Registered User SmashinYoungVag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    1) lol at anyone who thinks Kobe did not rape the woman
    2) I personally bring it up because its a solid reason to not mourn his loss and it does discredit his overall image of a "Great person" Theres a line to draw in what is enough to "accept" a rapist
    3) heres the facts of the Rape case

    -bloody panties from victim
    -same blood on Kobes shirt
    - Kobe claims at first " never met this woman in my life"
    - Kobe later claims "ok i gave her a tour of my house then we were making out and had sex"
    - Kove later claims "ok she never gave express consent"
    - girl has Kobe's dna inside her vagina
    - girl says she did not want to have sex and resisted once he started initiating sex
    - girl had bruises on her neck
    - prosecution states the case was aiming at a very strong chance of conviction before witness revoked her testimony
    - Kobe settles "non disclosure" agreement with victim, including an apology and monetary exchange.


    you can argue all day and night that she was just after money and only doing it because he was a celebrity, but he got caught up in multiple lies and an innocent man of high character doesnt settle and agree to an apology. He did what was necessary to stay in the NBA because if he had been tried he would have been banned. If he was convicted she wouldnt have gained anything monetarily from him, but she was given the chance to take a crap load of money and an apology, which is better to most people than just a judge or jury deciding someone was guilty.
    That's a whole lot of he said she said.

    -Why was there another mans cum in her thong when she went for the rape exam. Do you think it's normal for rape victims to immediately go fukk another guy?
    -Why did Kobe ask to cum on her face surely a rapist wouldn't care?
    -Why did the other hotel employee that saw her before she left say she seemed normal?
    -Why did the accuser change her story with the police? As if someone on mental illness meds with a history of attempted suicides isn't already not credible.
    -Why did she tell her friend she was expecting him to put the moves on her?
    -Why didn't the accuser want to testify? Did she not want justice?

    Literally nothing in the case points to him raping her. People have rough sex. He choked her during sex, that's normal.

    She was mentally unstable. The evidence points toward her engaging in wildly promiscuous behavior, and her fully expecting to fukk Kobe. Stop being a wk
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  13. #103
    I like turtles 🐢 nn586's Avatar
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    Agreed OP

    Not gonna bother trying to conversate with them either, they are clearly losers in life.
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  14. #104
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    Anybody who actually knows the details would never claim kobe was a rapist.
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  15. #105
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    First five minutes is good.

    “If you think about disaster, you will get it. Brood about death and you hasten your demise. Think positively and masterfully, with confidence and faith, and life becomes more secure, more fraught with action, richer in achievement and experience.”
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  16. #106
    Usuario registrado Ken-O's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sword_ View Post
    First five minutes is good.

    yeah just saw it. The ending song as cheesy as it sounds was the closest i have ever been of getting teary eyed by a celebrity's death lol, srs. It was a good tribute
    "The flowers bloom, then wither... The stars shine and one day become extinct. This earth, the sun, the galaxies and even the big universe, someday will be destroyed. Compared with that, the human life is only a blink, just a little time. In that short time - people are born, laugh, cry, fight, are injured, feel joy, sadness, hate someone, love someone. All in just a moment. And then, are embraced by the eternal sleep called death."
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  17. #107
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    Originally Posted by sword_ View Post
    BOZZ is a churchgoer. He should know that Jesus taught his disciples to be non judgemental since he was aware that all of us were flawed and not infallible since it's within our nature. It's dangerous to do that.
    oh word? So he's one of those "christians"
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    Originally Posted by chino3 View Post
    oh word? So he's one of those "christians"
    He's mentioned being a church goer ya I don't know which denomination.
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    Registered User Jestbrah's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SmashinYoungVag View Post
    That's a whole lot of he said she said.

    -Why was there another mans cum in her thong when she went for the rape exam. Do you think it's normal for rape victims to immediately go fukk another guy?
    -Why did Kobe ask to cum on her face surely a rapist wouldn't care?
    -Why did the other hotel employee that saw her before she left say she seemed normal?
    -Why did the accuser change her story with the police? As if someone on mental illness meds with a history of attempted suicides isn't already not credible.
    -Why did she tell her friend she was expecting him to put the moves on her?
    -Why didn't the accuser want to testify? Did she not want justice?

    Literally nothing in the case points to him raping her. People have rough sex. He choked her during sex, that's normal.

    She was mentally unstable. The evidence points toward her engaging in wildly promiscuous behavior, and her fully expecting to fukk Kobe. Stop being a wk
    “I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”

    - Kobe Bryant


    I am definitely not a WK, but im also not a rape sympathizer who likes to find reasons to defend someone for not raping someone, its very easy to tarnish a victim's reputation and make up reasons you believe someone didnt rape someone. Theres no changing your mind you already have it made up that Kobe is a perfect human being and that woman was a sloot who just wanted money, no matter what evidence or logic someone throws at you you will only believe your own truth.
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    Originally Posted by KingSWRV View Post
    Kobe gave me euphoric moments that helped me transcend the meaninglessness of life, the veterans didn’t do that for me.

    I loved Kobe, I didn’t love those veterans.

    It’s not about him it’s about me and how it made ME feel.

    That’s valid.

    If you can’t feel this for other people or things you’re the emotionally underdeveloped human.

    It’s always jealousy and retardation with these guys. They are just slow to develop emotions over their lifetime because they don’t have many friends or loved ones who are interesting.
    bUt DiD u kNoW hiM PerSoNaLLy???
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    If people want to mourn, let them mourn. If people believe Kobe was a bad person, that's fine too, but there is no point in arguing your facts to people who are mourning his death, because it wont lead to any changes, and vice versa.

    It's the same thing with Michael Jackson. Many people believe he was innocent, many believe he was guilty, he was found not guilty on all charges (as far as I remember). Regardless, when he passed away, people mourned, others hated him, either way there is no point in clashing, no views will be changed.

    Just let it be. Let people mourn.
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    Originally Posted by ElTito View Post
    If people want to mourn, let them mourn. If people believe Kobe was a bad person, that's fine too, but there is no point in arguing your facts to people who are mourning his death, because it wont lead to any changes, and vice versa.

    It's the same thing with Michael Jackson. Many people believe he was innocent, many believe he was guilty, he was found not guilty on all charges (as far as I remember). Regardless, when he passed away, people mourned, others hated him, either way there is no point in clashing, no views will be changed.

    Just let it be. Let people mourn.
    thats fine, but some people are completely misinformed or unaware because it was 17 years ago and lettuce be cereal, lots of people QQing over it were 0-5 years old at the time and never even knew about it.
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    Originally Posted by KingSWRV View Post
    Kobe gave me euphoric moments that helped me transcend the meaninglessness of life, the veterans didn’t do that for me.

    I loved Kobe, I didn’t love those veterans.

    It’s not about him it’s about me and how it made ME feel.

    That’s valid.

    If you can’t feel this for other people or things you’re the emotionally underdeveloped human.

    It’s always jealousy and retardation with these guys. They are just slow to develop emotions over their lifetime because they don’t have many friends or loved ones who are interesting.
    Pretty much. Not sure how some miscer in Kansas benefits from some American blowing the door off the house of an Afghan family anyway. America wages wars of aggression, not wars of defence. Americans should wake tf up from their fantasy delusional make believe hero nonsense and realize that a life is a life and come to terms with how their government will exploit anyone, especially them for a quick buck.
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    Originally Posted by Jestbrah View Post
    1) lol at anyone who thinks Kobe did not rape the woman
    2) I personally bring it up because its a solid reason to not mourn his loss and it does discredit his overall image of a "Great person" Theres a line to draw in what is enough to "accept" a rapist
    3) heres the facts of the Rape case

    -bloody panties from victim
    -same blood on Kobes shirt
    - Kobe claims at first " never met this woman in my life"
    - Kobe later claims "ok i gave her a tour of my house then we were making out and had sex"
    - Kove later claims "ok she never gave express consent"
    - girl has Kobe's dna inside her vagina
    - girl says she did not want to have sex and resisted once he started initiating sex
    - girl had bruises on her neck
    - prosecution states the case was aiming at a very strong chance of conviction before witness revoked her testimony
    - Kobe settles "non disclosure" agreement with victim, including an apology and monetary exchange.


    you can argue all day and night that she was just after money and only doing it because he was a celebrity, but he got caught up in multiple lies and an innocent man of high character doesnt settle and agree to an apology. He did what was necessary to stay in the NBA because if he had been tried he would have been banned. If he was convicted she wouldnt have gained anything monetarily from him, but she was given the chance to take a crap load of money and an apology, which is better to most people than just a judge or jury deciding someone was guilty.
    The woman asked to give Kobe a tour when she heard he was there, it was her day off
    The woman left the room looking fine, and told the manager nothing
    The woman slept with the bellboy(co-conspirator) and bf after the supposed assault
    The woman had made previous fasle claims againt family members
    The woman bragged about getting money from this
    Her BF refused to give a comparitive dna sample
    The woman was in a mental insitution and had tried to harm herself previously
    The woman lied to the cops and they dropped the criminal case when she refused to testify after the lies
    The case was settled because the cost of losing money in a civil trial(win or lose) outweighed a settlement.


    DENVER – A month after a woman accused NBA star Kobe Bryant (search) of rape, she told friends she was considering suing him in civil court and wanted to buy breast augmentation surgery and a koala bear with any award money, according to court documents released Friday.

    The now 20-year-old Katelyn Faber (search), who asked Eagle County prosecutors to dismiss the felony case against Bryant after deciding not to testify, had sought to remain unnamed in the federal civil case, as she did in the criminal one.

    But U.S. District Judge Richard P. Matsch rejected that request. He also said that granting her anonymity would have little effect because her privacy had already been invaded, partly due to mistakes by Eagle County Justice Center staff in posting case filings on a state Web site.

    Even though her name is now in the open, media organizations are taking different approaches. Some, like FOX News and the Rocky Mountain News, are naming the woman because she is an identified plaintiff in a lawsuit. Others, such as The Associated Press, continue to protect her privacy because it generally does not name alleged victims of sexual assault.

    These latest details about Faber's alleged plans for award money came in testimony from Sean Holloway (search), who knew the then-19-year-old woman from the University of Northern Colorado in Greeley.

    During a closed hearing March 2, defense attorney Hal Haddon (search) asked Holloway about a conversation with the woman near the end of July 2003, about a month after the alleged assault. The hearing was to determine whether information about the woman's sexual activities could be used in court against her.

    Haddon asked whether the woman had mentioned the possibility of a civil lawsuit.

    "She said that after the case was over it something that she was most likely going to do," Holloway said.

    He testified the woman, an aspiring singer, wanted to use any award money to open a recording studio and to pay for breast augmentation surgery for herself and a friend. He also said she would buy a koala bear for another friend who liked the animals.

    It is unclear whether District Judge Terry Ruckriegle (search) had ruled on the prosecution's request to limit Holloway's testimony. Prosecutors dropped the case against Bryant on Sept. 1 after the woman said she no longer wanted to participate.

    The woman, now 20, has filed a civil suit against Bryant in federal court for what she says have been months of pain and suffering since the alleged assault at a Vail-area resort where she once worked.

    Attorneys for the woman did not immediately return after-hours messages.

    Holloway's testimony was contained in some 500 pages of documents among previously sealed documents the judge has ordered released at the request of news organizations, including The Associated Press.

    Other documents include legal arguments over the defense's desire to use crime victim compensation records as evidence in an attempt to undermine the woman's credibility.

    Defense attorneys argued that the records would help prove the woman misrepresented or omitted information she had to provide to the compensation board.

    In other documents, the defense argued for the ability to tell jurors that Matt Herr, a former boyfriend of the woman, had refused to provide a DNA sample to compare to evidence found on her body and clothing after the alleged assault.

    Haddon said that evidence indicated the woman had sex in the hours after her encounter with Bryant but before her hospital exam the next day. Attorneys for the woman have vehemently denied she had sex with anyone immediately after Bryant.

    Earlier this week, the judge released lists of evidence both sides planned to present at trial. Among the defense exhibits were 15 identified as "Calgary photograph" and the March 8 issue of the Globe, a supermarket tabloid that published photos of the woman at parties in Calgary, Alberta.
    https://www.foxnews.com/story/docs-k...ed-award-money
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    Originally Posted by TBO1313 View Post
    I was never a Kobe fan. I took Shaq's side during their feud and have always hated the lakers except for a brief span with those Vlade Divac and Nick Van Exel teams that sucked.

    Saying that I always respected Kobe's insane work ethic and will to win. I respect the way he handled himself and played the game a million times more than Lebron or any of the current superstars jumping from team to team colluding with each other so they won't have to face any real competition.

    Edit: I forgot Lillard. He doesn't seem like a front runner so he is the current superstar exception
    Will rep off recharge. Nicely said.

    I was a Kobe guy around the time he changed his number, but not really a Kobe guy before that. I wasn't a Lakers fan, but I loved Nick Van Exel and his Lakers jersey is the first NBA jersey I've ever owned. I respect the hell out of Kobe's work ethic, because let's be honest, most tall guys are heartless poosay's. Their height on the court makes it so that most of them never really learn how to play the game very well. The best compliment I can give a tall guy on the court is "brah, if you were 5'10" you would STILL be a heck of a basketball player!" That was Kobe to me. He brought the manlet mindset as a manmore. It was incredible to watch.

    My current GF knew Kobe and just as importantly, the wife and daughters. And to tug at my heart a little more, in GiGi's younger pics she looks like my daughter. This was devastating all around.

    As far as OPs point, some people have an agenda to knock certain people down. But many others are just trolls. We just need to ignore the trolls, our reactions are what they feed on. Starve them.
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    Originally Posted by Kirra View Post
    I haven't followed the case closely at all, but why would an innocent person write this statement?
    In order to get them to drop criminal charges after agreeing that it won't be used against him in the civil litigation?

    It says right in the thing. "that's what this is"
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    Originally Posted by MiscInformed View Post
    I didn't claim he was a "rapist".

    I don't know if he raped her. I don't know if it was consensual. I don't care either. He sounds like he was a habitual philanderer then. She sounds like a certifiable nutcase. They're the only two who know what happened in that room.
    That's my point. We know nothing other than the fact that it settled, but with the way our society seems to function we assume guilt.

    This is problematic.

    Originally Posted by lolXlol View Post

    are you srsly trying to compare a one off case for a man to clear his name to an insurance company taking risk management measures in their line of business?
    So you're telling me that you don't know anything about the subject.

    I deal with chit on this level regularly at work.

    I work in Municipal Risk Management.

    I'm not saying Kobe is, or isn't guilty. Just that you cannot assume guilt based on a settlement.

    And if you don't think that Kobe had to consult with SEVERAL persons beside his attorneys, who likely made the choice to settle for him, you're insane. Guy was a business ASSET, and a moneymaker for a multi million dollar franchise.

    The settlement was RISK MANAGEMENT 101
    Last edited by TypeNirvash; 01-28-2020 at 08:12 PM.
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    The only people I see doing that are feminists and beta males... not even kidding
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    Originally Posted by TypeNirvash View Post
    That's my point. We know nothing other than the fact that it settled, but with the way our society seems to function we assume guilt.

    This is problematic.



    So you're telling me that you don't know anything about the subject.

    I deal with chit on this level regularly at work.

    I work in Municipal Risk Management.

    I'm not saying Kobe is, or isn't guilty. Just that you cannot assume guilt based on a settlement.

    And if you don't think that Kobe had to consult with SEVERAL persons beside his attorneys, who likely made the choice to settle for him, you're insane. Guy was a business ASSET, and a moneymaker for a multi million dollar franchise.

    The settlement was RISK MANAGEMENT 101
    what? i'm saying that for insurance companies it's in their course of business to be assessing whether to settle claims or proceed with court action as it affects their bottom line... i.e managing insolvency risk, they would literally go bankrupt on challenging every claim through to a court decision adn they were found liable so you can't use the same reasoning to apply it kobe's situation

    as i said this was a one time hing for kobe to clear his name as a rapist and he chose not to... that speaks VOLUMES as to his guilt

    you are delusional if you think it was anyone pressured him into settling, yeah ok let's have everyone think the face of the league representing the nba and corporate sponsors is a rapist instead of being declared innocent... like what?
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