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Thread: Longevity

  1. #31
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    Also, never overlook the potential placebic value of "doing something good for yourself."




    Studies have shown that people given chalk pills with bittering agent have overcome sickness, disease, depression, and so on when they were told and truly believed that they were taking something theraputic and beneficial to whatever was ailing them at the time. Aside from any potential physiological effect of intermittent fasting, the power of positive thinking cannot be denied.


    Ultimately, the person who is excited about their IF program will do much better than someone locked in a cage and forced to fast at equal intervals. The question is, where is the synergistic sweet spot between belief and biology?
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by IronCharles View Post
    Also, never overlook the potential placebic value of "doing something good for yourself."



    Ultimately, the person who is excited about their IF program will do much better than someone locked in a cage and forced to fast at equal intervals. The question is, where is the synergistic sweet spot between belief and biology?
    I started doing it for only the benefit of helping control appetite. I discounted the supposed benefits and only reason I started was less overall hunger.

    It is only after being smacked in the face that I had no choice but affirm. I actually feel foolish for refusing to try it sooner.

    There are differences. But I caution.......they alone are not going to make one transform. But turned into a true lifestyle, I can imagine the cumulative changes might become substantial over a window of years.

    I'll tell you when I get there.
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I started doing it for only the benefit of helping control appetite. I discounted the supposed benefits and only reason I started was less overall hunger.

    It is only after being smacked in the face that I had no choice but affirm. I actually feel foolish for refusing to try it sooner.

    There are differences. But I caution.......they alone are not going to make one transform. But turned into a true lifestyle, I can imagine the cumulative changes might become substantial over a window of years.

    I'll tell you when I get there.

    You can't tell us if you're the only one alive and we all be ded, which probably will be the case considering how much more disciplined you are than average person.

    When you fast, you get rid of damaged cells and replenish them with new ones. That I think has been shown in several animal studies. I can't imagine that not being beneficial in fighting disease in humans too.
    Last edited by Cass40; 01-25-2020 at 01:56 PM.
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  4. #34
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  5. #35
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    Foods have many addictive chemicals inside them, this is the #1 problem. If a human eats the most essential food naturally for their body then hunger no longer exists as long as there is a supply, things like fish and raw fish eyeballs, insects can go a long way.

    In the wild the Gorilla lives longer than all other apes, almost twice as long, they are also the largest. Humans also eat more than Gorillas.

    What does this mean, don't eat manufactured foods and continue to lift weights.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/healthy-diet_b_2867253
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    You can't tell us if you're the only one alive and we all be ded, which probably will be the case considering how much more disciplined you are than average person.

    When you fast, you get rid of damaged cells and replenish them with new ones. That I think has been shown in several animal studies. I can't imagine that not being beneficial in fighting disease in humans too.
    Truly I find IF the easiest lifestyle I have ever adopted. In contrast, prior I was a slave to food and a slave to eating. My entire adult life (and probably my whole life but I only have blood work as an adult) I have always tested fasted blood sugar VERY low. Like one time 50. (20 pts below bottom of the scale low!). My doc said it just must be genetic as the only other possible reasons are some pretty bad diseases which I don't have. I was always sensitive to eating often and was know to get hangry if I did not eat when I needed. (Going back to when I was a kid). It was kind of a joke.

    Now, I at times will instead of eating my first meal at 2, I'll push it off to 4or even 5 with no issue. Before I spent years eating aprox 2-3 hours. When I left the house, I carried snacks in case I needed to eat. I kept food in my car in case I needed it.

    I have had blood work twice since starting IF, and both times, (for the first time ever in 17 years of yearly physicals)my fasting sugar was 'normal'.

    I felt the difference long before I got the confirmation of blood work. My blood sugar no longer crashes like it once did.

    I am actually experimenting with this now to see how far I can push the threshold. I am testing what I call sugar bulking. Essentially I am introducing large boluses of simple sugars post workout.. I am intentionally pushing the threshold and have yet to crash and am actually seeing regenerative benefits, and maybe even growth. (Weight has shifted aprox 10 lbs for the better). Mostly glycogen shift. But I go as high as 250g carbs post wo

    90 g simple sugars shake and whey
    60g breakfast cereal and low-fat milk
    60g sherbert (all carbs no fat)
    And whatever else I want to shove in my face

    I am not doing IF for longevity. Carrying around the mass I do at my size is not a recipe for maximum life extension. I'd have lose aprox 60lbs lean mass. That would put me 145 and about 10%.

    I have pondered if it is all worth it at times. I want to live the fullest life that I enjoy living. I try to find that balance every day. I need to live long enough to make sure my wife and kids can make it through without me. My wife will surely outlive me. One grand mother lived to 98, the other 102! Come to think of it I think both of them practiced IF and did not even know it!
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    It seems that most scientists agree at the moment that time restricted eating, or having periods of not eating, is one of the most effective ways to prolong longevity and living longer.
    That seems line an overstatement. Most of the scientists I read think it's nothing-sauce.

    Some notes and observations:

    - the longevity effects are from long-term caloric restriction, not just from the timing, it's hard to extrapolate time scales between rodents and humans, and lifespans are shortened in some mouse strains. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...32X?via%3Dihub

    - over the years I've traveled with a number of people who never ate breakfast and therefore ate in an 8 hour window and a couple guys who never ate breakfast or lunch and ate in about a 2 hour window each day. None were particularly health or weight conscious or had any idea they were doing a thing, that was just their preference.

    - years ago I was on this weight-loss forum where there were a bunch of guys who were then or had been 400-500 lbs. A remarkable number of them got to 400 lbs by eating nothing all day and just pigging out at night. I remember noticing that pattern.

    - fasting can be a great way to limit calories, there may be some other benefits, but it is way way overblown at this point.

    A couple good summaries:

    https://nancyclarkrd.com/2019/06/21/...ting-athletes/

    https://humankinetics.me/2019/06/21/...sting-healthy/



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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post

    In the wild the Gorilla lives longer than all other apes, almost twice as long, they are also the largest. Humans also eat more than Gorillas.
    An adult male gorilla eats about 40 lbs of vegetation a day and spends most of its waking hours eating.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Gabbar99 View Post
    An adult male gorilla eats about 40 lbs of vegetation a day and spends most of its waking hours eating.

    Human carnivores probably consume more calories is what I meant.
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Truly I find IF the easiest lifestyle I have ever adopted. In contrast, prior I was a slave to food and a slave to eating. My entire adult life (and probably my whole life but I only have blood work as an adult) I have always tested fasted blood sugar VERY low. Like one time 50. (20 pts below bottom of the scale low!). My doc said it just must be genetic as the only other possible reasons are some pretty bad diseases which I don't have. I was always sensitive to eating often and was know to get hangry if I did not eat when I needed. (Going back to when I was a kid). It was kind of a joke.

    Now, I at times will instead of eating my first meal at 2, I'll push it off to 4or even 5 with no issue. Before I spent years eating aprox 2-3 hours. When I left the house, I carried snacks in case I needed to eat. I kept food in my car in case I needed it.

    I have had blood work twice since starting IF, and both times, (for the first time ever in 17 years of yearly physicals)my fasting sugar was 'normal'.

    I felt the difference long before I got the confirmation of blood work. My blood sugar no longer crashes like it once did.

    I am actually experimenting with this now to see how far I can push the threshold. I am testing what I call sugar bulking. Essentially I am introducing large boluses of simple sugars post workout.. I am intentionally pushing the threshold and have yet to crash and am actually seeing regenerative benefits, and maybe even growth. (Weight has shifted aprox 10 lbs for the better). Mostly glycogen shift. But I go as high as 250g carbs post wo

    90 g simple sugars shake and whey
    60g breakfast cereal and low-fat milk
    60g sherbert (all carbs no fat)
    And whatever else I want to shove in my face

    I am not doing IF for longevity. Carrying around the mass I do at my size is not a recipe for maximum life extension. I'd have lose aprox 60lbs lean mass. That would put me 145 and about 10%.

    I have pondered if it is all worth it at times. I want to live the fullest life that I enjoy living. I try to find that balance every day. I need to live long enough to make sure my wife and kids can make it through without me. My wife will surely outlive me. One grand mother lived to 98, the other 102! Come to think of it I think both of them practiced IF and did not even know it!

    Yes, the doctors I've been watching mostly on youtube , they look fit but do not have a lot of mass. The way you've built your size, I can see you wouldn't want to lose it since it was a lot of work.
    Also sugar bulking? R.I.P.

    Originally Posted by Gabbar99 View Post
    That seems line an overstatement. Most of the scientists I read think it's nothing-sauce.

    Some notes and observations:

    - the longevity effects are from long-term caloric restriction, not just from the timing, it's hard to extrapolate time scales between rodents and humans, and lifespans are shortened in some mouse strains. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...32X?via%3Dihub

    - over the years I've traveled with a number of people who never ate breakfast and therefore ate in an 8 hour window and a couple guys who never ate breakfast or lunch and ate in about a 2 hour window each day. None were particularly health or weight conscious or had any idea they were doing a thing, that was just their preference.

    - years ago I was on this weight-loss forum where there were a bunch of guys who were then or had been 400-500 lbs. A remarkable number of them got to 400 lbs by eating nothing all day and just pigging out at night. I remember noticing that pattern.

    - fasting can be a great way to limit calories, there may be some other benefits, but it is way way overblown at this point.

    A couple good summaries:

    https://nancyclarkrd.com/2019/06/21/...ting-athletes/

    https://humankinetics.me/2019/06/21/...sting-healthy/



    -
    I am not talking about those people who don't eat all day and then eat a lot of crap at night. I know overweight people like that who seem never to be eating.

    I mostly meant that if you already do all the things "right" and want to go an extra step. Also, if it's just periods and not something you would have to do religiously.
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  11. #41
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    Question - What is longevity mean ? Is it a certain age, is say 70 considered longevity? Are we also talking about outliving your excepted life depending on ones' genes?


    The few people I've known who lived the strength lifestyle along with fasting include Mighty Atom (Atoms son Mike is over 90 now and still pulls cars with his teeth). Atom didn't make it to 90 though, these guys are like 5'4ish and never weighed over 160lb. Atom's friend was 6'6" and is still alive and very close to 90 now, he didn't follow Atom's lifestyle in his younger days, he did begin too later in life.

    Another guy who made it to 104 was also never weighed over 160lb he was known for not even eating cake at his birthday parties.

    Jack LaLanne never was even close to as strong as the people above, so strength training still wins, IMO.

    With the exception of the fella who lived to 104 (btw he fought in WWII, and had a very hard life, he also was a boxer), so even a person with a hard life can still live long. And maybe Atoms son all drank alcohol from time to time, Atom drank heavily for a period after the death of his wife.

    Atom was told by doctors he'd never live to age 18, he ran away from home and joined the circus, was told by a Russian strongman to not eat what those normal folks where eating.

    I was also shocked this year to learn that someone whom I looked-up to in the irongame died suddenly in 2019, he was 160lb soaking wet, but he was 235lb in his twenties, he got sick, lost weight and never gained it back even though he could still squat 400+ for 20reps in his 50's, he was over 70.

    .....then there is John Gimmick, who was never light, lived to 88 and always lifted heavy weights.
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  12. #42
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    If been using IF for years before it was even a thing. I don't know if it makes any difference but I feel good so I stay with it.

    They say there are benefits to using IF for women over 40 but who knows.

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  13. #43
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    IMHO there's no easy definition of longevity once you stray away from the simplest - age at death. But distinguishing between mortality and morbidity is useful.

    How many years of relatively good quality life.. to my mind that a useful concept. Participating in sports may or may not increase overall lifespan (mortality) for a population, but it's widely believed to increase the reasonably healthy period for a population (i.e. reduce the period of morbidity).

    Yes, there are various studies about reduced calories and increased lifespans, most based on ****** worms, for goodness sakes, but IMHO these ignore the whole morbidity/mortality distinction which is a kind of important consideration.

    Can't we just keep it simple and look at body fat and strength and fitness (ok "fitness" is also a slippery concept too)
    Faith in Jesus first and faith in squats second.
    Then other details will start to slot themselves into place.

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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    IMHO there's no easy definition of longevity once you stray away from the simplest - age at death. But distinguishing between mortality and morbidity is useful.

    How many years of relatively good quality life.. to my mind that a useful concept. Participating in sports may or may not increase overall lifespan (mortality) for a population, but it's widely believed to increase the reasonably healthy period for a population (i.e. reduce the period of morbidity).

    Yes, there are various studies about reduced calories and increased lifespans, most based on ****** worms, for goodness sakes, but IMHO these ignore the whole morbidity/mortality distinction which is a kind of important consideration.

    Can't we just keep it simple and look at body fat and strength and fitness (ok "fitness" is also a slippery concept too)


    "Fasting" cleans out the system and I believe this is what is "key", it's not bodyweight, or cutting calories, once the body has been clean of dirty/bad cells there is new life in laymans terms.

    The average unhealthy "joe" who does not work to improve themselves do the same bad habits everyday, so they die, people who work on health still die, but their quality of life is better, and they usually live longer.

    There is no garantee anyone lives longer doing anything, but quality of life still matters and yes "fasting" will help live longer, but for godsakes "LIVE" eat a pizza here and there, "FAST" then your good, have a beer too, if you like.
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    "Fasting" cleans out the system and I believe this is what is "key", it's not bodyweight, or cutting calories, once the body has been clean of dirty/bad cells there is new life in laymans terms.

    The average unhealthy "joe" who does not work to improve themselves do the same bad habits everyday, so they die, people who work on health still die, but their quality of life is better, and they usually live longer.

    There is no garantee anyone lives longer doing anything, but quality of life still matters and yes "fasting" will help live longer, but for godsakes "LIVE" eat a pizza here and there, "FAST" then your good, have a beer too, if you like.
    Yes, quality of life, mainly.

    I'm in my forties. If I live another forty years, I want do the same things I am doing now. I do NOT want to be a 100 -year old stuck in front of the TV for years because I can't do anything else.

    So that's why I think it's somewhat rational to think of ways to minimize the risk of injury and maximize having good joint health and other things we need when we get older.

    It's not guaranteed and yes I am not going to give up deadlifting or some other things to "maximize" my chances for optimal aging but smart people change their approach to whatever knowledge they have now, not what they've been doing for so far.
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Yes, quality of life, mainly.

    I'm in my forties. If I live another forty years, I want do the same things I am doing now. I do NOT want to be a 100 -year old stuck in front of the TV for years because I can't do anything else.

    So that's why I think it's somewhat rational to think of ways to minimize the risk of injury and maximize having good joint health and other things we need when we get older.

    It's not guaranteed and yes I am not going to give up deadlifting or some other things to "maximize" my chances for optimal aging but smart people change their approach to whatever knowledge they have now, not what they've been doing for so far.


    Yes, and I think "fasting" whether you call it IF or even if done for a few days is good, but I would prepare "mentally" for it and not over do it. I know a strongman who fasted for days and said the first day was hardest, but after that he felt great and continued the fast for around 5 days. I would be very careful of that, people die ahead of their time doing crazy things, like starving and sweating in tents, but I know, you know this
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Yes, quality of life, mainly.

    I'm in my forties. If I live another forty years, I want do the same things I am doing now. I do NOT want to be a 100 -year old stuck in front of the TV for years because I can't do anything else.
    Well, as a woman in her 40's, you've only got about a 6-8 percent chance of making it to 100...And if you also stipulate that you don't want to be a drooling potted plant watching Wheel of Fortune re-runs all day, then the odds are substantially smaller

    I get what you are saying though. Anything that can potentially give Father Time the middle finger is worth exploring.
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Well, as a woman in her 40's, you've only got about a 6-8 percent chance of making it to 100...And if you also stipulate that you don't want to be a drooling potted plant watching Wheel of Fortune re-runs all day, then the odds are substantially smaller

    I get what you are saying though. Anything that can potentially give Father Time the middle finger is worth exploring.
    Karl, I have zero percent chance. Nobody in my family, neither side, has made it much over eighty.

    Seriously, we have done the family research and I have all the ages of my ancestors and none of them made it very far.
    Last edited by Cass40; 01-27-2020 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Side not size
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    Originally Posted by Cass40 View Post
    Karl, I have zero percent chance. Nobody in my family, neither side, has made it much over eighty.

    Seriously, we have done the family research and I have all the ages of my ancestors and none of them made it very far.
    Well, that`s the sh!ts. Buzz = killed
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Well, that`s the sh!ts. Buzz = killed
    Well I'm TRYING to change my genes but nobody's with me
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    Well, that`s the sh!ts. Buzz = killed
    Karlito, you can be assured Cassie will be a playah in her 90s, tho.

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    IF is fine, fasting is an awesome way of limiting overeating, but excessive calorie restriction is really, really dumb.

    the proponents are extrapolating from experiments on animals, and those animals go into starvation mode when food is scarce. This stops their reproductive cycle since you don't want litters of baby rats when there isn't any food for them.

    Guess what happens when you switch off sex drive in test animals, through starvation, chemicals or castration? That's right, they live statistically longer but infinitely less fun lives.

    Fasting between feeding windows of adequate nutrition is great, and may increase your IGF1 (although I suspect its so negligible as to be unnoticeable) but CR aka starving is not great and reduces your IGF1 - the broscientists in the CR cult have read about tumors producing excessive IGF1 and made the leap to the idea that IGF1 is this evil cancer causing hormone, ignoring that we have IGF binding proteins (that do exactly what their names suggest)

    Guess what a side effect of reduced IGF1 is? Pretty much every horrible thing we associate with old age, from crappy skin to brain fog an poor sleep.

    My grandad, at the age of 95, got on the internet and read things, and got it into his head that to live to 100 he should starve himself and only eat one tiny meal a day. Sadly he passed away less than a year after starting that nonsense. The sad thing is he was in great health up until then and could get around by himself, sharp as a tack aside from the depressing susceptibility older people have to believing what they read online without researching it
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    Guess what a side effect of reduced IGF1 is? Pretty much every horrible thing we associate with old age, from crappy skin to brain fog an poor sleep.

    A lot of thin older people (some are actually young) have those skinny weird looking necks, the people who starve themselves get wrinkly necks real quick.

    And before and after fasting it's good to eat a nice big meal, the problem with most people is they think they need to IF or eat just one meal everyday.

    Yes, it can feel good to only eat one meal, but it's also good to eat three on the weekends. The same thing applies to training. High rep squats are good, but not good every week.
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    What's the definition of Intermittent Fasting? Does it have to be a certain # of hours? For instance, I'm generally finished with my evening meal by 6:30-7pm and don't eat anything again until 6:30-7:30am -- so, nearly everyday I go 12 +/- hours without eating. The only exceptions are water and an occasional late evening beer. I wonder if I'm fasting?
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    Originally Posted by capnutra View Post
    What's the definition of Intermittent Fasting? Does it have to be a certain # of hours? For instance, I'm generally finished with my evening meal by 6:30-7pm and don't eat anything again until 6:30-7:30am -- so, nearly everyday I go 12 +/- hours without eating. The only exceptions are water and an occasional late evening beer. I wonder if I'm fasting?

    I could be wrong, but I'm guessing what you doing at 6:30-7:30am is breaking the fast (breakfast), IF would be waking-up going about your day without eating that a.m.

    What you're doing may be working fine anyway????

    I've noticed a handful of older guys who only ate a few PB crackers every morning and did very well, and not even exercising , tuna for lunch and a late dinner.
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    Originally Posted by capnutra View Post
    What's the definition of Intermittent Fasting? Does it have to be a certain # of hours? For instance, I'm generally finished with my evening meal by 6:30-7pm and don't eat anything again until 6:30-7:30am -- so, nearly everyday I go 12 +/- hours without eating. The only exceptions are water and an occasional late evening beer. I wonder if I'm fasting?

    There are different protocols, but 12 hr is not really considered enough to get the benefit of fasting. They are generally a minimum of 16 hours fasting. You can test with keto strips to see if you go into keotosis overnight, but I doubt it.


    I go 17 hours fasting daily with a 7 hour eating window. Sometimes I push it to 18 hours. Last intake aprox 9 PM and I eat first meal 2-3pm next day.


    There are some studies that show the ketone levels in the blood reach many times higher with IF than a total KETO diet. It is ketone bodies that have been shown to possibly have MANY health benefits. (there are also other metabolic changes, but if you are going into keotosis is a good indicator if you are fasting long enough.
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    There are different protocols, but 12 hr is not really considered enough to get the benefit of fasting. They are generally a minimum of 16 hours fasting.


    So I was right? but still no props from ID
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    My grandad, at the age of 95, got on the internet and read things, and got it into his head that to live to 100 he should starve himself and only eat one tiny meal a day. Sadly he passed away less than a year after starting that nonsense. The sad thing is he was in great health up until then and could get around by himself, sharp as a tack aside from the depressing susceptibility older people have to believing what they read online without researching it
    There are a couple newish fad conspiracy theories out there that are killing people. One is the starvation thing, often the idea that you can starve cancer. There are many cases of people like Steve Jobs choosing "natural" (non-working) therapies for treatable cancers. That's not new. But I've heard physicians saying they now have patients who do take the treatment but also think they can starve the cancer but eating less or by not eating carbs (because sugar feeds cancer!). Often it's hard to get cancer patients to eat enough to fight the cancer and these people are purposely starving themselves, reducing their odds of recovery.

    The other is the great evil cholesterol conspiracy. All medical science on the connection between cholesterol and heart disease, 10s of thousands of studies and four Nobel prizes, is part of a grand Big Pharma and vegan conspiracy. They say LDL cholesterol is good and therefore statins to lower it are bad. They use the fact that there's more to the heart disease story than cholesterol -- and of course there's more to the story, who ever said there wasn't? -- to claim that cholesterol is in fact good. Doctors have patients going off of statins and dying.

    It's ego building to think you know more than anyone else and lucrative to sell bogus supplements (Mercola has a net worth in the hundreds of millions), but these guys are killing people. None of the men on my dad's side of the family lived past their 50s until statins were invented. He told my mom before they were married that he wouldn't make it to 60 and and he planned his finances that way. My dad is now 82 thanks in large part to statins, so screw those guys.
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    Originally Posted by Gabbar99 View Post
    .

    The other is the great evil cholesterol conspiracy. All medical science on the connection between cholesterol and heart disease, 10s of thousands of studies and four Nobel prizes, is part of a grand Big Pharma and vegan conspiracy. They say LDL cholesterol is good and therefore statins to lower it are bad. They use the fact that there's more to the heart disease story than cholesterol -- and of course there's more to the story, who ever said there wasn't? -- to claim that cholesterol is in fact good. Doctors have patients going off of statins and dying.
    I think the issue with cholesterol is that it has been greatly oversimplified by focusing so heavily on LDL, when in reality, the focus should be more on particle count (which is moderately correlated with LDL). I think this confusion has helped fuel some of the conspiracy theories. Peter Attia had a pretty good series on the mechanism by which cholesterol caused problems and it really explains why some people with very low LDL get atherosclerosis whereas some with very high LDL do not. It is lengthy, but it is a good read.
    Last edited by Karl_Hungus; 01-29-2020 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Changed particle size to particle count
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    Originally Posted by Karl_Hungus View Post
    I think the issue with cholesterol is that it has been greatly oversimplified by focusing so heavily on LDL, when in reality, the focus should be more on particle size (which is moderately correlated with LDL). I think this confusion has helped fuel some of the conspiracy theories. Peter Attia had a pretty good series on the mechanism by which cholesterol caused problems and it really explains why some people with very low LDL get atherosclerosis whereas some with very high LDL do not. It is lengthy, but it is a good read.
    I got tested for particle size and all the details. It is more complex than "LDL is bad", but that doesn't mean it's all a big conspiracy.

    Don't know that Attia is a full-fledged conspiracy theorist. I do know that he pocketed millions from billionaires for NuSi and then bailed when the results, which to their credit were good science, didn't go how they'd hoped. He's legit, but he has a lot of money and reputation at stake on one side of the issue, so I suspect his take is highly biased.
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