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  1. #31
    Clearly Irrational blue9steel's Avatar
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    Consistency is the number one thing no matter what your approach. Personally I do count my exercise calories separately, but that is by no means necessary or the only way to do it. Over time I've evolved some numbers that seem to be reasonably accurate for me, but it's not a perfect system to be sure. If you do decide to do a separate count then be sure to deal with the gross/net calories issue and the optimistic numbers problems or you'll end up way over-estimating how much you're burning.

    For me, numbers tend to work out at somewhere around:
    200 calories per hour of lifting, normally 1.5 hours (2/3 that for a deload/assistance/light day)
    100 calories per mile of jogging, normally 3-5 miles
    175 calories per mile of rucking (50lb pack), normally 1-3 miles
    200 calories per hour of trail riding (horses, moderate pace), normally 1-3 hours
    2 calories per bale of hay unloaded and stacked, normally 100-400 bales
    For doing something I don't do often I'd usually divide the listed calories by 1.4 to get a rough estimate of what I'm actually burning. If I do it a lot I'd probably find or build a smarter model that accounts for BMR, weight, etc.

    I like spreadsheets and it works for me, but YMMV.
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  2. #32
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    yea, 1k+ calorie burn workout will NEVER happen with me, lol. I'll be happy to burn an extra 200 calories per workout!

    I am glad there's one "one way only" rule, it seems it's certainly not one size fits all.

    I find cardio makes me hungry, but lifting I have to force myself to eat something afterwards, at least a protein shake, otherwise I can go for HOURS without eating.
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  3. #33
    Registered User jademonkey's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Dude....srs? You must be soooooo Hardcorezzzz!

    You really think you are expending 3000 cal in a single workout? Well where in the hell are you getting that energy to power your body? For a trained endurance athlete, there is aprox 350g of muscle glycogen storage, and lover will hold about 100g. So that makes 450g glycogen available. (Or 1800 cal) until your body is TOTALLY depleted. (of course this can vary some and with body mass...but just using numbers)

    Very intense exercise like hard core cardio, burns aprox 600 cals per hour. So you are doing 5 hours of high-intensity exercise a day?

    It is ridiculous posts like these that contribute to the confusion of a basic newb.


    I hold to my opinion. Caloric burn (besides basic activity multipliers in the initial TDEE calculators), should not be factored in as a daily variable that can change.
    First, during steady state cardio the body burns a lot of fat in addition to sugar depending on fitness. Second, one can digest up to 300 simple carbs per hour during aerobic activity.
    A steady state base training ride could be 5 hours at 200 watts. That's 4000 calories. Consume 300 per hour. Burn fat in addition to carbs.
    A shorter 1.5 hour workout may average 200 watts also and burn 1200 calories.
    A 15 mile hike with 3000 feet of climbing will burn around 2500 calories.
    Intense cardio, like 300 watts, burns 1200 per hour. For a cardio noob 600 per hour might be about right.

    Probably OP isn't burning 1000 to 3000 calories, but lots of people do, and it only makes sense to track calories out in addition to calories in. Why would anyone weigh their food and then completely ignore accuracy on the other half of the equation? All of which is beside the point that some people (not you apparently) have an easier time eating in a deficit when burning more calories.
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  4. #34
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jademonkey View Post
    .....
    A steady state base training ride could be 5 hours at 200 watts. That's 4000 calories.

    .....
    A 15 mile hike with 3000 feet of climbing will burn around 2500 calories.
    Intense cardio, like 300 watts, burns 1200 per hour.....

    For a cardio noob 600 per hour might be about right.

    .

    Boy you are really hardcorez! You might realize you are not at www.MenWhoWearManBuns.com

    Also the thread stated advice for "beginner".

    On the other hand, I have been training over 20 years and I don't know a single person who has ever done a 15mile hike with 3000 foot elevation.

    Maybe I am a cardio newb too then, since I would say in general my steady state cardio is well below 600 cals per hour. (And I probably carry 30 lbs more muscle than you)

    Now that I think of it, I have never even walked 15 miles in my life let alone up the side of a mountain. Oh boy....I have so much to learn...... Someday I will hope to be as cool as you burning all those cals. You won't catch me with a man bun though...
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  5. #35
    Registered User ajdahlheimer's Avatar
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    I run a 5k program on my treadmill every Friday (during the winter). It says I burn around 550 calories in the ~40 minutes workout. No idea how accurate that is--but it should indicate how ridiculous the concept of burning 3000 calories in a single cardio workout is.......
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  6. #36
    Registered User jademonkey's Avatar
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    It's not about being cool, it's about being factual. It's ridiculous that someone would be bothered by such a common thing.

    Burning 1000 to 3000 calories in a workout might sound ridiculous to gym bros that never leave the squat rack. Or couch potatoes.

    I'm imagining some cyclist or hiker or runner or skier or rower or (insert aerobic activity here) on another forum somewhere getting all worked up at someones "ridiculous" claim of a normal workout consisting of lifting 200 lbs over and over again (another very normal thing in many circles).

    I never said I expect OP to do longer aerobic activities, just that they are done by many people and it only makes sense to (1) count the calories spent and (2) can make it easier to eat in a deficit for some people. Idk why you are getting so hung up on the particular numbers from my particular situation I used as an example.
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  7. #37
    Humble Megalomaniac ElrondHubbard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Boy you are really hardcorez! You might realize you are not at www.MenWhoWearManBuns.com

    Also the thread stated advice for "beginner".

    On the other hand, I have been training over 20 years and I don't know a single person who has ever done a 15mile hike with 3000 foot elevation.

    Maybe I am a cardio newb too then, since I would say in general my steady state cardio is well below 600 cals per hour. (And I probably carry 30 lbs more muscle than you)

    Now that I think of it, I have never even walked 15 miles in my life let alone up the side of a mountain. Oh boy....I have so much to learn...... Someday I will hope to be as cool as you burning all those cals. You won't catch me with a man bun though...
    15 miles and 3000 feet isn't beyond the pale. I've done that several times at the Grand Canyon, Death Valley, and the Spring Mountains in Nevada. Takes a bit of preparation and good shoes.

    The very last hike I took was about 24 miles up and over the Funeral mountains from Amargosa Valley on the Nevada side to Furnace Creek in Death Valley on the California side. Of course it was only 2200 feet uphill and 4600 feet downhill, but not counting the stiff and painful legs at the end, and the blistered toes and sore heels, it was a piece of cake.

    I don't think I could have walked back the other way, though.

    But did I burn 3000 calories? I highly doubt it.
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  8. #38
    Registered User jademonkey's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ElrondHubbard View Post
    15 miles and 3000 feet isn't beyond the pale. I've done that several times at the Grand Canyon, Death Valley, and the Spring Mountains in Nevada. Takes a bit of preparation and good shoes.

    The very last hike I took was about 24 miles up and over the Funeral mountains from Amargosa Valley on the Nevada side to Furnace Creek in Death Valley on the California side. Of course it was only 2200 feet uphill and 4600 feet downhill, but not counting the stiff and painful legs at the end, and the blistered toes and sore heels, it was a piece of cake.

    I don't think I could have walked back the other way, though.

    But did I burn 3000 calories? I highly doubt it.
    I bet you did. Through hikers typically lose tons of weight their first few weeks. A person my weight burns about 100 calories per mile walking. On a bike its about 100 calories per 300 feet of climbing. It's probably a bit more hiking over rough terrain for both of those numbers, but that's what I use just as an estimate. That was when I weighed 165. So likely 10% more now but still a good estimate. That's why I think it's such a good way to burn extra calories - you didn't FEEL like you burned all that, and "only" eat an extra 1000 or so. It doesn't take crazy endurance athlete fitness to do a long hike and enjoy the outdoors. My wife hikes with me and she is ridiculously bad at aerobics. We go slow but we still make 12-15 miles on a typical longer hike. We did 20 with 4300 feet on a particularly tough hike in Yosemite last year, tho that one was a bit hard on her.
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  9. #39
    Focus on yourself kimm4's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Cals in cals out rule at the end of the day.

    I always set my deficit for my desired loss and look at exercise as a bonus. With you looking at a large loss like you are, there is no reason you cant shoot for closer to 2lbs /week. 1.5 min.

    Just eat less (srs) and make sure you get aprox 100g protein in and healthy fats at a proper level. Carbs are your variable. No need to go keto, just understand that carbs are the non-necessary part of your intake. There is no such thing as an "essential carb" where there is a min level of fat and protein that are required. Err on the high side with protein and keep fats at a healty level. Probably MIN 60-70g / day.


    You can try to track activity, but my opinion is throw all those gadgets out. Spend the mental effort trying to track your intake better, prepping meals...etc. THAT will make you successful....not counting cals burned on a treadmill.
    Agreed and I've always done it this way. I've never tracked how many calories I'm burning at the gym. A normal weight training session with a little cardio sprinkled in is nothing earth shattering in terms of calories being burned.

    If I want to focus on fat loss it's calorie deficit + exercise = results
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  10. #40
    Registered User Cantplankwell's Avatar
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    The closest I have come to burning 3000 calories is cycling a metric century (Raising money for cancer research)...100km. Actually did 100 on Saturday, and another 100 on the sunday .... the next day. So I burned 2500-3000 calories each day so I was told by the more advanced cyclists. Total of about 4-5 hours each ride. It probably took nearly 3000 calories of "fuel" each day, i ate a sh*t ton of stuff every chance I had starting with breakfast. I was trying to lose weight at the time (spring 2018). On the monday I weighed in......didnt lose a pound, my shorter 25km rides in the following weeks after that sure were fast and easy tho. Longer rides like that are not a regular thing for most people.

    Doing it again in June.
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  11. #41
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ajdahlheimer View Post
    I run a 5k program on my treadmill every Friday (during the winter). It says I burn around 550 calories .


    Newb!


    That there REAL cardio begins at 1500+ cal.....dont cha know? Anything less is a warmup!


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  12. #42
    Rekisteröity Käyttäjä Cass40's Avatar
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    I barely burn 200 calories when I do cardio.
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  13. #43
    Registered User Thatdarndragon's Avatar
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    Does this look accurate, a screenshot of my fitbit from yesterday.

    I worked out for an hour, lifting and a bit of cardio in between while waiting for the bars to be freed up.

    not sure if the 357 calories burned is accurate? I know someone suggested taking half and eating it back which seems right to me. But I am curious to how accurate the fitbit is (Fitbit Versa)
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  14. #44
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Thatdarndragon View Post
    Does this look accurate, a screenshot of my fitbit from yesterday.

    I worked out for an hour, lifting and a bit of cardio in between while waiting for the bars to be freed up.

    not sure if the 357 calories burned is accurate? I know someone suggested taking half and eating it back which seems right to me. But I am curious to how accurate the fitbit is (Fitbit Versa)

    I am not sure what part you are missing. It is not accurate at all. Yes you exercised, so you burned some calories. How many? You can just guess and probably be as close as your fitbit tells you. Srs....take a dartboard and put random numbers between 100 and 400 and close your eyes and throw the dart. That is how accurate your fitbit is.


    You are in a forum filled with all different types of people giving you advice. If you dont want my advice, take that of one of the most accomplished and respected FEMALES on this forum Kimm4. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and she has helped MANY MANY people on here with accurate and educated advice.
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597213661



    As for your Fitbit, here is a info saying a recent study showed them as overestimating burn by as much as 50% I have tried. If you want to 'exercise' your way to allow yourself to eat more, my guess if you will fail. You joined here 10 years ago, and over decade have not made progress. Maybe it is time to consider not repeating the mistakes of your past. In the end, it depends on how important your goals are to you. If you really feel you need to eat that extra 200cals because you feel you 'earned' it, I think your priorities are not in line with your goals. Is stuffing 200 cals in your face really going to make you feel that much better?

    Good luck.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-experiments/

    Here is another one. Most accurate as 30% off and least accurate was 93% off. The error rate is greatest in people overweight.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-study-finds/
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  15. #45
    Registered User Thatdarndragon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I am not sure what part you are missing. It is not accurate at all. Yes you exercised, so you burned some calories. How many? You can just guess and probably be as close as your fitbit tells you. Srs....take a dartboard and put random numbers between 100 and 400 and close your eyes and throw the dart. That is how accurate your fitbit is.


    You are in a forum filled with all different types of people giving you advice. If you dont want my advice, take that of one of the most accomplished and respected FEMALES on this forum Kimm4. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and she has helped MANY MANY people on here with accurate and educated advice.
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597213661



    As for your Fitbit, here is a info saying a recent study showed them as overestimating burn by as much as 50% I have tried. If you want to 'exercise' your way to allow yourself to eat more, my guess if you will fail. You joined here 10 years ago, and over decade have not made progress. Maybe it is time to consider not repeating the mistakes of your past. In the end, it depends on how important your goals are to you. If you really feel you need to eat that extra 200cals because you feel you 'earned' it, I think your priorities are not in line with your goals. Is stuffing 200 cals in your face really going to make you feel that much better?

    Good luck.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-experiments/

    Here is another one. Most accurate as 30% off and least accurate was 93% off. The error rate is greatest in people overweight.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-study-finds/
    I am not sure where it says I wasn't taking your advice? I am just asking questions and trying to make sense of all of this and trying to see how accurate the fitbit is, that is all. I did say I felt the advice of taking half to eat back was right? I am not sure if I appreciate the tone you've set. I don't care if the person helping is male or female.

    I thought the forum is a safe place to ask questions, no matter how dumb it is (Especially for a dumb person like me)

    BTW, I did join 10 years ago, and I've had personal issues and cancer and other things that I dont need to mention that got in the way- I wouldn't judge me as lazy just because I signed up 10 years ago and "have not made much progress". I appreciate your lack of confidence in me. I've lost nearly 40lbs, and that's huge progress given what I had to deal with, thank you.

    but thank you for the links, really appreciate it!
    Last edited by Thatdarndragon; 02-07-2020 at 09:24 AM.
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    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Thatdarndragon View Post
    I am not sure where it says I wasn't taking your advice? I am just asking questions and trying to make sense of all of this and trying to see how accurate the fitbit is, that is all. I did say I felt the advice of taking half to eat back was right? I am not sure if I appreciate the tone you've set. I don't care if the person helping is male or female.

    I thought the forum is a safe place to ask questions, no matter how dumb it is (Especially for a dumb person like me)

    BTW, I did join 10 years ago, and I've had personal issues and cancer and other things that I dont need to mention that got in the way- I wouldn't judge me as lazy just because I signed up 10 years ago and "have not made much progress". I've lost nearly 40lbs, and that's huge progress given what I had to deal with, thank you.

    but thank you for the links, really appreciate it!
    My tone is one of 'tough love'. I wont blow smoke up peoples 'a$$'s. This will not be easy and most people fail.

    I have given you the opinion that I strongly disagree with the "eat back 1/2 of what you burned" notion. My suggestion of listening to Kimm is because she is probably the most qualified here to give advice, regardless of male or female. She is by far the most accomplished. Period. So pick you want to take advice from.....

    The thing about everyone here, is given our ages, we all have a "past" with struggles that have brought us to where we are.

    Most of us have jobs, and families which all make working out a challenge. This wont be easy and most people fail.

    It is only you that can chose your path.
    Last edited by induced_drag; 02-07-2020 at 09:29 AM.
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  17. #47
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    take that of one of the most accomplished and respected FEMALES on this forum Kimm4. Her accomplishments speak for themselves, and she has helped MANY MANY people on here with accurate and educated advice.
    https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1597213661
    I second this. Kimm is as reliable as it gets.

    I am in the camp of not spending two seconds trying to calculate calories burned. Maaaayyyybe if you have never tracked and you're just looking for a ballpark figure to set your calorie goal for the first time in your life, but otherwise it's grasping at vapor. It changes over time as your body improves in fitness and gets more efficient.

    Good luck on your goals. I like how thoughtful you are in the process, but just remember that long term compliance is the most important thing. Don't exasperate yourself with a focus on the minors. Stick to the foundational principles and they will take you a long way!
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    Registered User Thatdarndragon's Avatar
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    The way I see with calories, whether I am wrong or not, its not to eat it back, but to see how much effort i am putting into the exercises. Sure, I can go by how my muscles feel the next day or measurements after over time, but it's just me. I like to see numbers.

    Of course, it's nice to know what I've burned in the event I go out for dinner so I can judge my meal plans

    Thank you both for the replies, I appreciate the feedbacks.
    Last edited by Thatdarndragon; 02-07-2020 at 09:54 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Thatdarndragon View Post
    Of course, it's nice to know what I've burned in the event I go out for dinner so I can judge my meal plans
    I'll just say it one more time that I think this is very dangerous. Even if you were somewhat accurate about what you did during the time you exercised, you have no idea what your body is going to do over the next 24 hour period following that exercise. It is not uncommon that after intense exercise, our body reduces its energy expenditure already to compensate. If you add additional food to match what you think were added calories burned, you may very well completely overshoot your energy balance.
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    I'll just say it one more time that I think this is very dangerous. Even if you were somewhat accurate about what you did during the time you exercised, you have no idea what your body is going to do over the next 24 hour period following that exercise. It is not uncommon that after intense exercise, our body reduces its energy expenditure already to compensate. If you add additional food to match what you think were added calories burned, you may very well completely overshoot your energy balance.
    I see what you mean, that was worded clearly. I appreciate it, now I got more thinking to do, lol
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    Originally Posted by ectoBgone View Post
    I'll just say it one more time that I think this is very dangerous. .

    I agree 100%. I hope the OP starts seeing a pattern


    Minimize variables and stay consistent. Do not attempt to 'compensate' or fluctuate too many things. Just the simple act of tracking your food alone is filled with enough pitfalls and errors.



    To ThatDarnDragon. I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am truly trying to help. A lot of people tend to overcomplicate and micromanage. In the end, they miss the boat, and most often end in failure.

    It took me 4 solid years of planning and tracking EVERY meal I ate. That meant prepping most of them because it will come to a point where 'guessing' is no longer sufficient. (you are not at that place so dont worry).

    I have been here 10 years and seen many people come and go. Most fail. I am trying to give the things that will be most vital to your success. Tracking energy expenditure is NOT one of them. (as long as you are consistent in your exercise) Just like in counting macros, you can try to account of the thermic values of different foods. Yes there are differences, but it is not worth tracking in the big picture.

    If you want to track your cals burned estimates, by all means use it as a form of motivation. Keep a journal and log every workout. See your hard work on the pages of the effort you have put forth. Do that by all means.

    I am just saying dont try to use it in your diet planning.

    Good luck.


    BTW.....if you want to cheat like you out to eat for a special occasion, just skip breakfast, eat a very light lunch, (maybe 4-6oz chicken and a salad) and then go eat dinner.
    I personally chose not to cheat EVER. (it works for me). But you can make your diet flexible enough to fit in higher cal intakes on occasion. Just dont try to do it as 'weekly refeeds'
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  22. #52
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    Op you will notice many people do not estimate calories burned from exercise. I'm in that camp as well. I have a fitbit Versa and the calorie estimator is off by as much as 50% on a daily basis. I know what calories it takes for me to gain and what it takes to cut and the fitbit isn't close.

    So the way I do it is I exercise routinely and track that as one activity. The amount of food I've consumed does not change the way I train. The training is specific and aligned for the train to reach my goal.

    I track calories as a separate activity and the diet is aligned to my goal just like the training. So in your example if I go out and over indulge I simply have to be more controlled the remainder of the week, within reason. Trying to train more due to calorie consumption would only say I wasn't dedicated to my training plan.
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    Originally Posted by bayrider View Post
    Trying to train more due to calorie consumption would only say I wasn't dedicated to my training plan.
    Or it would say you are good at planning ahead. Planning for a 1500 calorie night by walking/riding more during the day only makes logical sense.

    Different strokes for different lifestyles.

    If your lifestyle consists of monotonous same old same every day like many on this forum then no need to change that half of the equation. If you vary your output significantly like one who spends time on active outdoor activities it doesn't makes sense to track input but ignore output. For some people output varies far more than input.
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    Yup the big barbell (known as an Olympic bar) typically weighs 45lbs, they have some that weight more but most all the Olympic bars in the gyms weigh 45lbs.
    There also exist 15kg "women's" and 8kg "children's" barbells. These are lighter not because of those people being weaker than men (though at the start they usually are) but because it allows the bar to be thinner, accommodating smaller hands. A well-equipped gym, particularly any gym which hopes to train women and older folk with barbells, will have 15 and 8kg bars.

    It's common for young women to need to start pressing with a 15kg bar, and some smaller, previously very sedentary and older women an 8kg bar. In either case they will typically double this in their first 3 months of consistent training. Some may need to start squatting with a 15kg, too, especially if they do front squats. When someone starts training, it is better to err on the side of too light than too heavy, since as we can see from the original post, even when it's very light the person will have a lot of soreness the next day or two - if it's excessive they may not return to the gym.

    OP, you're making progress, which is always good. Don't try to estimate your calories burned from exercise. Come up with a meal plan you can follow, and adjust it as you go based on results. Earlier you expressed concern about building muscle, I don't know if you've changed your mind (many do after a few weeks or months), but if not: please go and visit a nursing home, and consider how those people's lives might have been different if they had enthusiastically tried to build some muscle when younger.
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    Check this list out Thatdarndragon, scroll down to the long list of activities. I hope this helps and Good Luck!

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-...ine-activities
    sums it up a thread will start off promising and then turn into name calling..
    The easiest way to tell when an argument has no merit is when the protagonist mixes in some personal insults.
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    Originally Posted by Thatdarndragon View Post
    The way I see with calories, whether I am wrong or not, its not to eat it back, but to see how much effort i am putting into the exercises. Sure, I can go by how my muscles feel the next day or measurements after over time, but it's just me. I like to see numbers.


    Quite honestly, you should just go by the numbers in your training, meaning increasing your lifts and reps, it'll all work out as long as your not constantly eating crap, btw the stronger you get, the more muscle you build and that's actually going to increase your calorie intake, you must "feed the beast", and that is why many also fail.

    Like I said in my other post, don't worry about what your losing, think about gains.
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    Originally Posted by Thatdarndragon View Post
    Hi all

    Last week my personal trainer had me lift barbells, for the first time ever in my life.

    I did (Everything 3x 10 each)

    squats with 45 lbs
    Overhead press 20 lbs
    Bentover row 20 lbs
    Chest press 20 lbs
    Bicep curl 20 lbs
    hexbar trap squats 45lbs (I think 45lbs)
    30 second on/off rope pull with 30 second planks in between
    and 3 machines /(not sure what they're called, one's like rowing, the others pull down)

    First time I could not walk. My knees wanted to give out, my legs were complete noodles. I was in a lot of muscular pain, which is expected for doing this for the first time ever (Took me 3 days of recovery to walk properly).

    Over the next week, I did everything but squats with weights as I was not confident on doing it on my own without my trainer watching my form. (I did it without weights to do something)

    Tonight, I had my trainer again. Repeated everything above, only difference is an extra 10 lbs on the squats and hexbar and an extra rep to 4. I should probably increase the barbell for others to 30 lbs since it felt easier today.

    Despite the pain and weakness I felt the first time.. second time with added weights and an extra rep, I do not feel as weak and noodly. Yes, my legs feel tired and I know I will feel something tomorrow, but it's no where near as I felt the first time.

    My question are...
    1. is it normal to be "Stronger" so soon? It's only been a total of a week and half since my first training session, 3x a week of barbells (and cardio once or twice a week).
    2. Considering I don't feel as much pain, is it safe to increase the weights more? I feel like I can increase the barbells from 20 to 30lbs at this point, but the squats? I don't want to injure myself or overdo it
    3. Does the routine above sound good? I am putting my trust in the trainer, but he's so young and fresh out of college. I'd like second opinions

    PS: By pain, I mean muscle regeneration pain. The good stuff.
    It’s commonly referred to as a newbie gains. . Enjoy the fast progression. It will last for six months to a year and you will make a lot of progress in the amount of weight you can lift. It slows down a lot over time it becomes harder and harder to make gains. Enjoy it for now
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