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  1. #1
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    High frequency full body is best imo

    Got this idea from Eric Helms who trains full body 5x a week and Jeff Nippard recently started doing the same as well. I've been doing an upper/lower split 4x a week for the longest and just switched over to full body 4x a week. I used to do the standard full body 3x a week before that, but each workout was lasting way too long.

    So basically the reason it's better is because as long as weekly volume remains unchanged, the full body routine better spreads it out compared to other routines which improves set quality tremendously. Instead of doing say 8 sets for a muscle in a session done twice a week, it's better to do full body 4x a week doing only 4 sets per muscle each workout. It's still going to be 16 total weekly sets in both instances. Most of your volume becomes more effective since you'd do less junk volume because doing 4 sets for a muscle is less fatiguing than doing 8 sets for a muscle in a session. Think about it. If you're doing hard, quality sets, it doesn't take many sets for that muscle to get so fatigued that you have to start dropping reps and weight. This also means that if someone was training 6x a week doing PPL, they'd be better off doing full body 6x a week doing a few quality sets at a time for each muscle every workout.

    Now some people would say, yeah but if you train full body with a high frequency, you're training the same muscles everyday and you can't do that. Well, that couldn't be further from the truth. As long as weekly volume is kept the same, you can get away with training the same muscle multiple days in a row. It's all just a matter of balancing intensity, frequency, and volume. There's even a study done on this subject called the Norweigan Frequency Project that you can check out on Menno Henselman's website right here: https://mennohenselmans.com/training...ency-3x-vs-6x/
    Last edited by Animal2692; 01-12-2020 at 09:15 AM.
    Weighted calisthenics>weights anyday. Relative strength>absolute strength
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  2. #2
    Registered User George2100's Avatar
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    I feel like you change your mind a lot haha no hate brah
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  3. #3
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by George2100 View Post
    I feel like you change your mind a lot haha no hate brah
    Not really. I still keep the basics the same and do the same exercises and volume, training hard. It's just that if I find a better way to structuring the same thing I'm already doing, then I might as well do that because I want to do what is optimal. I don't want to stay stuck on one way if there's a better way out there of doing it. I've done full body 3x a week for 6 months, upper/lower for another 6 months. 6 months is a pretty long time to stick to a routine
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    Registered User MSammon's Avatar
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    Very interested in this. Currently doing upper/lower 4 day split and it’s going well. I’m still a relative beginner. Wondering if my next move will be more like full body or push/pull/legs. Friend last night who is pretty big said he does a 7 day split. He even dedicates a day to biceps and a day to triceps. I couldn’t believe it but it works for him.
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    Nobody knows if full body several times a week is more optimal than PPL done twice weekly. There is no evidence that shows one is superior to the other strongly (at least no strong research I am aware of). You mention it's better as you do less junk volume. How can you be 100% sure that doing the extra "junk" volume in one session (which can dig further into intramuscular glycogen/triglyceride stores, further stimulating motor units/muscle fibers as the ones used more regularly initially become fatigued, accumulating more stress/damage that gives signals to recover, etc) is not beneficial? We know there are many programs that involve some sort of deload/break when peaking for a meet after a period of overreaching, we know that people can respond well to supercompensation where they accumulate more fatigue and then rebound stronger, etc. Is there really any strong data showing this happens on a day-to-day basis? Certainly from a neuromuscular standpoint you can progress quickly (see anyone who does daily max squats and puts a lot of weight on their squat), but that is good for peaking moreso than sustained benefits, has risks of injury, and again I don't recall ever seeing any studies suggesting from a hypertrophy standpoint this is beneficial in trained individuals.

    Point being, I very much doubt anyone anywhere can make a really strong case that this is the best training style. Worth trying for any given individual who wants to try something new and see how they respond? Sure, definitely worth trying.
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  6. #6
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    Not really. I still keep the basics the same and do the same exercises and volume, training hard. It's just that if I find a better way to structuring the same thing I'm already doing, then I might as well do that because I want to do what is optimal. I don't want to stay stuck on one way if there's a better way out there of doing it.
    OP, didn't you just say you just dropped your volume by 60% in your other post, can now train harder and now the gains are rolling in? And claim that the #1 reason why ppl don't make gains is because they don't train close enough to failure and most ppl do too much volume? (how you know how everyone else trains IDK)

    Is that the secret or is it 5 days/week FB workouts? Or a combo of all? A lot of recent discoveries you're making.

    Why not 7-day FB under your theory? And have you ever done a PPL, to compare with your 6-day/week FB theory?

    No problem with you liking 5-day FB after recently switching to it from an U/L, and you should do what you feels works best for you - but doesn't make it the best choice in general, or for specific ppl, and prob shouldn't be touted as absolutely better than everything else just because you recently decided you like it best. There are lots of ways to make gains.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Animal2692's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by air2fakie View Post
    OP, didn't you just say you just dropped your volume by 60% in your other post, can now train harder and now the gains are rolling in? And claim that the #1 reason why ppl don't make gains is because they don't train close enough to failure and most ppl do too much volume? (how you know how everyone else trains IDK)

    Is that the secret or is it 5 days/week FB workouts? Or a combo of all? A lot of recent discoveries you're making.

    Why not 7-day FB under your theory? And have you ever done a PPL, to compare with your 6-day/week FB theory?

    No problem with you liking 5-day FB after recently switching to it from an U/L, and you should do what you feels works best for you - but doesn't make it the best choice in general, or for specific ppl, and prob shouldn't be touted as absolutely better than everything else just because you recently decided you like it best. There are lots of ways to make gains.
    I dropped volume from 16 sets a week to 10 sets a week per muscle. That doesn't mean I still don't stick to the basics.

    I get what you are saying but I think you're going outside the context here. The context being that full body is better than other routines because you can spread volume much better. Sure there are lots of ways to make gains, but certain ways are better than others. If you're an individual with many options available to you, why not pick the option that's most optimal? There is no doubt that doing less sets in a single session for a muscle improves set quality and intensity as well as preventing junk volume. I don't care who you are or what you are, there is a point for everyone where quality begins to suffer after a certain amount of sets. Try doing 12 hard sets for a muscle vs 4 in a given session....that is if you can still do 12 hard sets with the same weight, intensity, etc. What I'm saying is no surpise. Take PPL for example. You asked me if I've done PPL, no I haven't. But what I do know is, cramming half your weekly volume on a leg day of PPL, is pretty tough compared to spreading it out over 4 days. Leg day on PPL is no different than lower day on an upper/lower split which I HAVE done for a while. You're training legs 2x a week in both instances.

    I also wanted to add that I see many people especially here constantly mentioning and touting "everyone is different". I feel like more often than not, that's just used as a cop out to get away from what actually works. I see fitness as more unifying than anything because we're all humans at the end of the day. We all need sleep, muscle failure still exists, volume/recovery balance still applies. The differences between people are a lot smaller than people make it seem. In my opinion the only people that are truly different than the rest are those on the juice. Everyone else is more or less in the same boat having to face the same painful grind.
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  8. #8
    Registered User George2100's Avatar
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    Bro split checking in. Do whatever makes you happy boys !
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    Registered User TAWS6's Avatar
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    Helms and Nippard don't train hard at all anymore. No one is using advanced level weights and training hard with a frequency of 5+. Sufficient volume per work out isn't there. Also the guy who conducted that Norwegian study also stated that for muscle gain he would train with a lower frequency 2x per week and higher volume. People who push this always seem to forget about that.
    Last edited by TAWS6; 01-12-2020 at 11:30 AM.
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  10. #10
    Registered User NearlyBigAngus's Avatar
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    Coach Greg with a different perspective... the Norwegian study was not peer reviewed and it was not possible to replicate their findings. Some red flags right there.
    Not exactly a solid scientific basis.



    Personally, I think the program you you stick to consistently is the best - whatever that may be. If full body 5x week does that for you then all power to your elbow.
    Last edited by NearlyBigAngus; 01-12-2020 at 11:36 AM.
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    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Connective tissue recovers much slower than muscle tissue. As a beginner your cns cant even tax the muscle to its full potential(you ever see a n00b tear a muscle from a concentric rep?). This means in the beginning connective tissue is also not taxed that much, so its not going to have much to recover from.

    Once you "need" PPL you will know. You are not going to be 5 years in squatting and benching every 48 hours for the same heavy weight all week, and just "backing off" when nagging muscle issues start.
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  12. #12
    Registered User air2fakie's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    If you're an individual with many options available to you, why not pick the option that's most optimal?
    You saying that 5-day FB is most optimal - or anyone saying that one routine is superior over all others - doesn’t make that the case.

    Two weeks ago if someone asked you what’s most optimal you likely would’ve said UL with 60% more volume since that’s what you did forever. That was my point on subjective superiority of one routine.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    There is no doubt that doing less sets in a single session for a muscle improves set quality and intensity as well as preventing junk volume. I don't care who you are or what you are, there is a point for everyone where quality begins to suffer after a certain amount of sets. Try doing 12 hard sets for a muscle vs 4 in a given session....
    So the threshold based on the “idea” you just got from Helms and Nippard is 4 sets being optimal, not 12? Got it, thanks.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    I also wanted to add that I see many people especially here constantly mentioning and touting "everyone is different". I feel like more often than not, that's just used as a cop out to get away from what actually works.
    Ppl who choose to do an UL, PPL or 3-day FB instead of your “most optimal” 5-day are not necessarily copping out just because you declare it to be so.

    Originally Posted by Animal2692 View Post
    The differences between people are a lot smaller than people make it seem. In my opinion the only people that are truly different than the rest are those on the juice. Everyone else is more or less in the same boat having to face the same painful grind.
    Got it, scratch all routines and adopt the 5-day model and volume level you just started doing. The rest of ppl are spinning their wheels. Thanks, good advice.
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  13. #13
    Weak and foolish OldFartTom's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Connective tissue recovers much slower than muscle tissue. As a beginner your cns cant even tax the muscle to its full potential(you ever see a n00b tear a muscle from a concentric rep?). This means in the beginning connective tissue is also not taxed that much, so its not going to have much to recover from.

    Once you "need" PPL you will know. You are not going to be 5 years in squatting and benching every 48 hours for the same heavy weight all week, and just "backing off" when nagging muscle issues start.
    Rep score on a forum is a very unfair thing. Why do I have >25,000 reps (and most of my posts are drivel) but nightanole is giving away ****** solid gold here but only has >13,000.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Rep score on a forum is a very unfair thing. Why do I have >25,000 reps (and most of my posts are drivel) but nightanole is giving away ****** solid gold here but only has >13,000.
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    Yes, you need more negging
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    Originally Posted by SuffolkPunch View Post
    Yes, you need more negging
    Don't worry I will neg him for you.....

    Oh wait its Tom and his glutes of steel rep on sight is a must

    All hail Steel Tom.
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    Originally Posted by OldFartTom View Post
    Rep score on a forum is a very unfair thing. Why do I have >25,000 reps (and most of my posts are drivel) but nightanole is giving away ****** solid gold here but only has >13,000.
    (spread)
    Negged.

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    So 5 days per week full body with 60% less volume? Is that just you or do we all need to drop the volume by 60%?
    "Milk is for babies. When you grow up you have to drink beer."
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    Works well for you and your goals


    Butter, the proof is in the pudding elsewhere sport. Run along in ya vibrams with ya high altitude mask while you bite jawsersize lke a meaty peaCOCK. Dont forget ya redcon supps too. ****s piss baby 7 day full bods
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    WOATbrah of peace :) sooby's Avatar
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    It works better for YOU is the caveat here. Even if studies showed that hitting more 2-3x frequency resulted in more gains, it doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be worse for a certain subset of the population. You need to be careful when applying studies to the realm of practicality and reality. And none of these studies actually prove these as a 100% fact for everybody. Adhere to general principles as a newbie and then start to experiment to see what works best for you.
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    Originally Posted by sooby View Post
    It works better for YOU is the caveat here. Even if studies showed that hitting more 2-3x frequency resulted in more gains, it doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be worse for a certain subset of the population. You need to be careful when applying studies to the realm of practicality and reality. And none of these studies actually prove these as a 100% fact for everybody. Adhere to general principles as a newbie and then start to experiment to see what works best for you.
    Agreed. Hitting each bodypart dierectly once per week has given me the best gains. Everyone is different
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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    Helms and Nippard don't train hard at all anymore. No one is using advanced level weights and training hard with a frequency of 5+. Sufficient volume per work out isn't there. Also the guy who conducted that Norwegian study also stated that for muscle gain he would train with a lower frequency 2x per week and higher volume. People who push this always seem to forget about that.
    Are you trolling about Nippard and helms?

    I don’t know what world you’re living in but to claim neither works hard, especially helms who was competing all year?
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Are you trolling about Nippard and helms?

    I don’t know what world you’re living in but to claim neither works hard, especially helms who was competing all year?
    Actually, in one of his recent videos, Nippard concedes that his training may have suffered because filming footage for his videos was taking more priority.

    Starting at 0:45

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    This is generally the case for all beginners and MOST intermediates.

    Once high intermediate is achieved, specificity reveals itself from both, an orientated and genetic perspective.

    Bodybuilding, powerlifting, weightlifting or general athletes - each will require a different level of frequency based their sport. For example, a 4x / week full body bodybuilding routine wouldn't be optimal as bodybuilders need annihilation in their training. They can't necessarily get away with a couple of taxing sets every other day. Aggressive tissue breakdown is needed on some basis.

    And of course, individual response will also vary the frequency (genetic recovery aside). For example, the Lilliebridges find that it's best for them to train a heavy squat and deadlift every other week, then you have a guy like Alex Kang that benches 4x a week, and squats and deadlifts 2-3x a week (even in equipment).

    Very narrow examples but I think the majority of trainees will find that frequency falls off as they advance, and therein forms an equilibrium between volume and intensity with the favor dependent on specificity and individual recovery.

    I will however agree that most people pull frequency before they need to.
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    Originally Posted by TolerantLactose View Post
    Actually, in one of his recent videos, Nippard concedes that his training may have suffered because filming footage for his videos was taking more priority.

    Starting at 0:45

    I saw that, but I think he’s being polite and trying to tamp down all the venom with Greg, Mike, and his Gf etc.

    He’s been testing his FB routine and hitting PRs again lately.

    I just think the notion that he doesn’t train hard is silly.

    Maybe not as “hard” as the past but it’s not like he’s lifting children’s weight.

    I was more surprised he would try to claim helms doesn’t train hard which is why I mentioned him more specifically.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Are you trolling about Nippard and helms?

    I don’t know what world you’re living in but to claim neither works hard, especially helms who was competing all year?
    I just do not believe that you can use advanced level weights with that frequency and train hard each session (This includes Helms). That type of training forces you to train with less intensity. So IF Helms is training this way (Which may be a lie to promote this type of training), no I do not believe he is training "hard" for someone at his level. Especially compared to how he used to train before he was at his genetic limit. As far as Nippard's I don't think he trains as hard as he use to at all. A low 400's deadlift should be easy for him. Maybe I should have specified. In a year from now all these guys will come back to whats worked forever anyways and that's using a frequency of about twice per week.
    Last edited by TAWS6; 01-14-2020 at 01:55 AM.
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    I do this six days a week but with 8 singles on every lift. It's worked very great so far and its nearly been a year. I love it. I'm done with rep work and have been for nearly a year now. Singles for life in my opinion.
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    Originally Posted by NearlyBigAngus View Post
    Coach Greg with a different perspective... the Norwegian study was not peer reviewed and it was not possible to replicate their findings. Some red flags right there.
    Not exactly a solid scientific basis.



    Personally, I think the program you you stick to consistently is the best - whatever that may be. If full body 5x week does that for you then all power to your elbow.
    I can't imagine doing full body 5 times a week, that would just kill me. 2 or 3 times I could handle, but I need my recovery time to be larger for full body vs a split. I agree with consistency, the sustainable routine is the one for me.
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    Originally Posted by Gringer View Post
    I do this six days a week but with 8 singles on every lift. It's worked very great so far and its nearly been a year. I love it. I'm done with rep work and have been for nearly a year now. Singles for life in my opinion.
    LOL

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    Originally Posted by TAWS6 View Post
    I just do not believe that you can use advanced level weights with that frequency and train hard each session (This includes Helms). That type of training forces you to train with less intensity. So IF Helms is training this way (Which may be a lie to promote this type of training), no I do not believe he is training "hard" for someone at his level. Especially compared to how he used to train before he was at his genetic limit. As far as Nippard's I don't think he trains as hard as he use to at all. A low 400's deadlift should be easy for him. Maybe I should have specified. In a year from now all these guys will come back to whats worked forever anyways and that's using a frequency of about twice per week.
    Helms posts all his workouts on the Gravitus app so can see exactly how he trains anytime.

    Right now he’s doing a mix of weightlifting, strongman, PL.

    But he was doing 5 day full body throughout his prep. He’s way too busy to sit there and make up fake workouts lol.

    And why would he have a motivation to promote full body stuff?

    He always says frequency is simply a tool to manage volume, fatigue, etc.

    Also what are you considering advanced level weights?

    just trying to get an idea of what you’re thinking would be the cutoff where this type of training would not be doable.

    Also I think people are picture squat/bench/dead 5 days a week which isn’t what either of nippard or helms is suggesting, nor is it what others who promote higher frequency are saying to do.

    Having said that, there’s plenty of people who do squat/bench/dead 3x a week, along with other accessories, like Brian Whitacre who is an advanced level bodybuilder.

    Also, at a certain point, the weight lifted doesn’t determine is someone is advanced.

    It’s all about how quickly you can progress regardless of the weight.
    Last edited by Filmbuff81; 01-15-2020 at 11:51 PM.
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    Hes def not making up work outs but I don't know what his definition of FB is lol. Its kind of the same type of agenda as what these guys did with the volume studies. I think they are trying to push this type of high frequency training to sell books. I also think that if you train a muscle hard you only need twice per week frequency. After I train lower body I don't even think of training legs again the next day. It gets hammered with 8-10 heavy sets. So if an advanced lifter squats 405 for work sets twice per week, on top of the rest of his lower day, hes done. Any more added frequency is going to be half ass. I also have a post from Nippard's where he admits this not being better than twice per week so I don't know why hes pushing more than double that.
    Last edited by TAWS6; 01-16-2020 at 12:46 AM.
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