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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post

    Im kind of surprised by the ever part of this from you that seems quite extreme. "People who are obese rarely became that way from eating a diet of minimally processed foods like nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat. Actually I'd be surprised if it ever happened."

    I'm pretty sure obese people existed before processed food did even if there were less of them and that is with most people not even having the money to make this even a possibility back then.

    All that being said I don't think I was EVER hungry when I was getting huge I ate because things tasted good and I liked it. I ate when I wanted too and it had little to nothing to do with hunger. Tell you what though I don't think the key is eating whole foods or any such voodoo in my experience they key is wanting it and constantly getting back on the horse when you do veer off course. While it is nice to know what controls hunger hormones to use as a tool in the toolbox at the end of the day its still just mind over matter one way or the other.
    So of course there were obese people before processed food, BUT, that was extremely rare mainly due to food always being a scarce resource. So yes, for sure availability of food in general (processed or not) comes into the equation.

    However, even in scenarios where people had adequate food, they would have to more carefully weigh the cost of consuming excess food vs. having a stockpile for a rainy day... the exception being very wealthy people who otherwise were definitely more likely to overeat.

    From my own experience being a chubby kid (probably around 25% bodyfat with zero athletic ability), I also never really felt 'true' hunger unless I went looooong periods without food.

    However, the main culprits for me were environment, food choices, and lack of movement.

    My family always kept lots of treats and desserts in the house, I did not consume hardly any fruits and veggies, and I didn't get regular activity. A 'healthy' lunch for me would have been a bean, cheese, and chicken burrito dipped in 1/3 a cup of ketchup and maybe 2 granola bars on the side with a 2% milk... which was probably like 1000-1100 calories in a sitting... whereas I could get that same level of fullness eating maybe 750-800 calories is I just made different choices.

    The lack of activity made it less of issue walking around a little extra full all the time because you don't need to feel 'agile' in order to just relax and chill... so that's one part.

    Also, when I was inactive I had more chances to just browse the cupboards, sit in the kitchen while deciding what to eat for dinner/lunch WHILE I snacked on ice cream straight from the tub, etc...

    It was all the little things just adding up.

    Sadly I ended up going in the extreme opposite direction and having my awareness of energy balance and exercise factors drive me to restrict and become obsessed with tracking and managing my bodyfat, but in retrospect I can definitely see how it was a multi-factorial situation which lead me there... and definitely food choices played a big role.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    If someone is overeating by 500 calories every day for 10 years, then replacing a snickers with 1.5 servings of sunflower seeds is unlikely to cause a change.
    Sure. I meant a diet mostly consisting of minimally processed foods. The study we were talking about showed people spontaneously lost weight when they switched to such a diet.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Sadly I ended up going in the extreme opposite direction and having my awareness of energy balance and exercise factors drive me to restrict and become obsessed with tracking and managing my bodyfat, but in retrospect I can definitely see how it was a multi-factorial situation which lead me there... and definitely food choices played a big role.
    Don't know if we can talk about this enough but this is also what happened to me when I got in a bad shape with nutrition. The more I learned, the worse off I really was at first. Over-analyzing, over-restricting, paranoia.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    Don't know if we can talk about this enough but this is also what happened to me when I got in a bad shape with nutrition. The more I learned, the worse off I really was at first. Over-analyzing, over-restricting, paranoia.
    Even mrpb called it out indirectly... the relationship between these forums/tracking/'awareness' and how it often leads to issues:

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    As for our own experience: we're at (very) low body fat, mostly meticulously tracking intake (, sometimes recovering from ED). Our own experience is probably not that relevant in that context.



    It's sad it so often falls on extremes... you're either totally reliant on tracking, or you have a genuine addiction and compulsion for it....

    That's why I'm trying to get to that middle ground where it's mentally and physically healthy... generally make good choices, but not have to track at all.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-13-2020 at 11:40 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Perhaps I could setup an ultra processed foods diet with some protein bars with significant fiber that would achieve the same weight loss as the minimally processed diet in this study. If true, then we can't say it's the amount of processing causing the excess energy intake.
    Good point. I'm sure we could eventually tip the scales so drastically in favor of processed food that it finally wins. Even then, it's unlikely to achieve the blood measurement improvements shown in Table 3 of the current study. IMO the improved health is the key here because it predicts sustainability of weight loss. Still, I think such a study would be very enlightening.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Jason Fung for example. Gary Taubes was another one, although his hypothesis was more specifically the carbohydrate-insulin theory of obesity.
    Interesting. I'm not a big fan of Fung. I find Taubes to be very intelligent, albeit a huckster. Between those two I've only read "The Obesity Code" and "Good Calories, Bad Calories". The only thing in either book that suggests calorie reduction doesn't cause weight loss in the short-term is Fung's reference of a 1993 study where diabetics gained a bunch of weight despite significantly reducing calories because they were given very high doses of insulin. But he used that study in the context of extreme insulin treatment, not normal life.

    His argument is more that standard calorie deficit cannot be sustained long-term (as is necessary in the case of obesity). That's nothing controversial, though. We've known that since the Minnesota Starvation Experiment.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Most rational people who believe in CICO don't believe it is sufficient in explaining why obesity starts. It's just that you have to be in energy surplus in order to become obese. The reason why someone overeats is undoubtedly much more complicated.
    It seems the CICO crowd and the hormone-theory crowd have more in common than meets the eye. Perhaps the tribalism is unnecessary.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Have you read this article by Lyle McDonald? It appropriately covers some of the common claims around energy balance.

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo...equation.html/
    Yeah, I've seen you post it before. I find him to be a brute and not particularly intelligent.

    It's striking to me that the defense of the CICO equation always revolves around making it more complicated. "Uh oh we forgot to account for something-- better add a new variable!" We invent the acronyms out of thin air. Don't get me wrong, I use CICO all the time. I record calories every day and have all sorts of data comparing my daily intake with other things. But I'm not going to accept such simplistic fabrications as gospel truth. Are they useful? Of course. Are they reality? No way.

    And no matter how complicated we make the CICO equation, we can't hide the most glaring flaw in it: mass and energy are distinct physical properties. Lyle attempts to reconcile this in other articles and it's hilarious.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The word control is something I object to. They play an important role, sure, but they don't fully control. Hormones are an important piece of the puzzle, not the managing principle.
    Can you give me some examples of metabolic processes, anything from the molecular level to whole-body, that are not regulated by hormones? I'm not planning to argue any examples you give, I'm just curious how you draw the line.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Anecdotally I find it super easy to eat in a constant calorie deficit. Why would that be? I think a combination of a relatively low stress life, good genetics for being lean, a diet high in fiber, protein and minimally processed foods, valuing a lean look and probably many other factors.
    Very much agree with all of this. I'd add/emphasize that caloric deficit is much easier when one's hormones are in harmony with each another (and much harder when they are fighting against each other).
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Even mrpb called it out indirectly... the relationship between these forums/tracking/'awareness' and how it often leads to issues:






    It's sad it so often falls on extremes... you're either totally reliant on tracking, or you have a genuine addiction and compulsion for it....

    That's why I'm trying to get to that middle ground where it's mentally and physically healthy... generally make good choices, but not have to track at all.
    Well I can tell you from the other side of the spectrum as someone who has not seen the healthy side of 200 pounds since before I was a teenager the meticulous tracking is actually quite encouraging as when I stall or go backwards i can go into MFP and go "well by going crazy and drinking a bottle of scotch an entire gallon of ice cream on Friday on top of eating normally I have in effectively wiped out my deficit and the math adds up". So not only does it keep me accountable it allows me to point my finger at the actual problem behaviors and go OK This right here is the issue and if I fixed it this is what i could have lost this week. Before I started tracking and did the math it was not intuitive to me that I could ruin an entire weeks work in a single night like that. That being said now that i have been doing it an entire year I don't really need to log something to have an idea of if it was a poor choice or not now that i know the caloric values of most things and how taking in that many calories effects the weekly averages. When it comes to sticking to the plan though I'm still certainly learning ways to make it easier. The math is nice because i can look at it and go "trying to be super good this week or even getting in more exercise is nothing compared to the choice to not get drunk on a single night based on how those days go for me."
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    Well I can tell you from the other side of the spectrum as someone who has not seen the healthy side of 200 pounds since before I was a teenager the meticulous tracking is actually quite encouraging as when I stall or go backwards i can go into MFP and go "well by going crazy and drinking a bottle of scotch an entire gallon of ice cream on Friday on top of eating normally I have in effectively wiped out my deficit and the math adds up". So not only does it keep me accountable it allows me to point my finger at the actual problem behaviors and go OK This right here is the issue and if I fixed it this is what i could have lost this week. Before I started tracking and did the math it was not intuitive to me that I could ruin an entire weeks work in a single night like that. That being said now that i have been doing it an entire year I don't really need to log something to have an idea of if it was a poor choice or not now that i know the caloric values of most things and how taking in that many calories effects the weekly averages. When it comes to sticking to the plan though I'm still certainly learning ways to make it easier. The math is nice because i can look at it and go "trying to be super good this week or even getting in more exercise is nothing compared to the choice to not get drunk on a single night based on how those days go for me."
    I like reading that. Ideally, this is how it should be. Tracking should lead to overall knowledge and awareness so you can feel the freedom of mindful eating based on the habits you learned from tracking.

    Depends on the person and background though I think. At one point, I was 315lbs and was scared to death in regaining fat. It's easy for some people to fall into the hole deeper than they'd like to or should be.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    My main takeaway is that although whole and unprocessed sources of fat and carbs are almost certainly not the cause of someone becoming over fat or obese, they also are unlikely to ‘fix’ those situations on their own... it has to be a comprehensive lifestyle change in almost all cases.

    If someone is overeating by 500 calories every day for 10 years, then replacing a snickers with 1.5 servings of sunflower seeds is unlikely to cause a change. However, add in more activity, fiber, veggies, fruits, whole grains, take out liquid calories and alcohol... now we have a good base to work with.

    Some level of cognizance and change beyond simply moving from ‘processed’ to ‘whole’ should happen... such as a minimum veggie and fiber amount, etc.
    Well said--I agree with you that comprehensive change needs to be the end goal. However, in my experience sudden comprehensive change also drastically increases the likelihood of drop-out. Trainers and nutritionists prefer to make one small change at a time because it's more manageable and eventually snow-balls. The amount of change that someone can handle varies a lot from person to person.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Well said--I agree with you that comprehensive change needs to be the end goal. However, in my experience sudden comprehensive change also drastically increases the likelihood of drop-out. Trainers and nutritionists prefer to make one small change at a time because it's more manageable and eventually snow-balls. The amount of change that someone can handle varies a lot from person to person.
    Agreed. It's very difficult to suddenly change ALL factors when each of them took large periods of time to develop in the first place.
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    Well I can tell you from the other side of the spectrum as someone who has not seen the healthy side of 200 pounds since before I was a teenager the meticulous tracking is actually quite encouraging as when I stall or go backwards i can go into MFP and go "well by going crazy and drinking a bottle of scotch an entire gallon of ice cream on Friday on top of eating normally I have in effectively wiped out my deficit and the math adds up". So not only does it keep me accountable it allows me to point my finger at the actual problem behaviors and go OK This right here is the issue and if I fixed it this is what i could have lost this week. Before I started tracking and did the math it was not intuitive to me that I could ruin an entire weeks work in a single night like that. That being said now that i have been doing it an entire year I don't really need to log something to have an idea of if it was a poor choice or not now that i know the caloric values of most things and how taking in that many calories effects the weekly averages. When it comes to sticking to the plan though I'm still certainly learning ways to make it easier. The math is nice because i can look at it and go "trying to be super good this week or even getting in more exercise is nothing compared to the choice to not get drunk on a single night based on how those days go for me."
    Right, and the tracking can be useful as a learning tool, but IMO it should be just that... a means to develop awareness and healthy habits.

    I often use the financial budget as an analogy for this: although obsessing over every cent you spend can give you the best results, after a certain amount of time adhering to a budget and just buying similar things, you can create enough awareness and habits that you don't need to check your bank account 10 times a day and keep all your receipts, etc, in order to not go broke.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Yeah, I've seen you post it before. I find him to be a brute and not particularly intelligent.
    True, he is brute at times (he suffers from iirc bipolar) but nonetheless he often makes good points. The points in this article I consider accurate. Unfortunately it's written in a style that will rub many people the wrong way.

    It's striking to me that the defense of the CICO equation always revolves around making it more complicated.
    But it is very complicated. A governing principle should be encompassing everything. In reality it's even more complicated. It's just a model. It's not perfect but it's practical. Just like a map is never perfect because it's not the territory.

    "Uh oh we forgot to account for something-- better add a new variable!"
    That's not what he's doing. Hormones operate within energy balance. It's quite simple to establish: what if someone has unfavourable hormones but still manages to be in a sustained energy deficit. They will lose weight. So energy balance is the governing principle. Hormones are very important. So are genes. So are food choices. So is food availability. So is conditioning. Etc.

    If hormones are working against you it's hard.
    If you're not in an energy deficit it's by definition impossible.

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    His argument is more that standard calorie deficit cannot be sustained long-term (as is necessary in the case of obesity). That's nothing controversial.
    It's not accurate. There are many people who successfully lose weight with calorie restriction. And yes there are many people who fail at it, but this goes for all diets. Not just because of their hormones, due to many variables.

    It seems the CICO crowd and the hormone-theory crowd have more in common than meets the eye. Perhaps the tribalism is unnecessary.
    The way I see it CICO vs. hormones is a false dichotomy. They're both important.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 01-15-2020 at 02:21 AM.
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    Originally Posted by rjoylo2008 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood your post? But from my experience I've never met, seen or heard of an obese individual who became that way eating healthy foods. That just seems a bit contrarian for me. I mean go to Walmart and peek in the shopping carts. Or, hang out at a fast food restaurant and you'll see their food choices.

    You mentioned when bulking and eating more of the same foods consumed while cutting. I agree in that scenario it sometimes makes more sense to go for caloric dense food choices. Which leads me back to why obese individuals choose those those same foods. Apologies if I'm way off on what you were trying to say.
    you can become obese eating kale salads and celery if you eat enough of them.... celery would probably mess up your insides first from too much fiber though
    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Even mrpb called it out indirectly... the relationship between these forums/tracking/'awareness' and how it often leads to issues:






    It's sad it so often falls on extremes... you're either totally reliant on tracking, or you have a genuine addiction and compulsion for it....

    That's why I'm trying to get to that middle ground where it's mentally and physically healthy... generally make good choices, but not have to track at all.
    after years of tracking I find I know my calories without even trying, then again my mother taught me the caloric value of everything by 4 years old
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Even mrpb called it out indirectly... the relationship between these forums/tracking/'awareness' and how it often leads to issues:

    It's sad it so often falls on extremes... you're either totally reliant on tracking, or you have a genuine addiction and compulsion for it....

    That's why I'm trying to get to that middle ground where it's mentally and physically healthy... generally make good choices, but not have to track at all.
    I must admit I weigh and track every single thing that goes into my mouth. If I eat out and the restaurant doesn't publish nutritional info, then I estimate weights / portion sizes and add the closest thing I can in MFP.

    However I don't really consider it to be an "obsession" or a negative, any more than I'm obsessed with going to the gym 5 days a week, or brushing my teeth every day. I'd probably classify it as an obsession or addiction if I felt it had a negative impact on my life, rather than a positive one. It doesn't stop me enjoying McDonalds with the family or having the occassional cream cake or takeaway, it just ensures I hit my macros each day and since I have a goal of gaining or losing weight I like to be meticilous with my calories so I can properly track progress and know what is (or isn't) working.

    I know the vast majority of people would find it an absolute bind, but it's so ingrained into my routine (often I'll plan my meals and snacks the night before) that it really doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

    I also know people who constantly complain they can't lose weight despite eating "healthy", but then flat out refuse to weigh and track food, even for a month, which I find very odd.

    I do think I'm in a position now where if I wanted to eat 2,500 calories in a day I could do it fairly accurately without weighing and tracking, but I prefer to continue doing it for accuracy.
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    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    I must admit I weigh and track every single thing that goes into my mouth. If I eat out and the restaurant doesn't publish nutritional info, then I estimate weights / portion sizes and add the closest thing I can in MFP.

    However I don't really consider it to be an "obsession" or a negative, any more than I'm obsessed with going to the gym 5 days a week, or brushing my teeth every day. I'd probably classify it as an obsession or addiction if I felt it had a negative impact on my life, rather than a positive one. It doesn't stop me enjoying McDonalds with the family or having the occassional cream cake or takeaway, it just ensures I hit my macros each day and since I have a goal of gaining or losing weight I like to be meticilous with my calories so I can properly track progress and know what is (or isn't) working.

    I know the vast majority of people would find it an absolute bind, but it's so ingrained into my routine (often I'll plan my meals and snacks the night before) that it really doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

    I also know people who constantly complain they can't lose weight despite eating "healthy", but then flat out refuse to weigh and track food, even for a month, which I find very odd.

    I do think I'm in a position now where if I wanted to eat 2,500 calories in a day I could do it fairly accurately without weighing and tracking, but I prefer to continue doing it for accuracy.
    Everyone is different.

    I found over time that I’m so good at eyeballing, etc, that if I really wanted to target things, I could, because I’ve tested out not tracking things as the day goes on and I end up within ~5% every time.

    But the main reason I just don’t see the point is because I’ll always choose an amount of food that makes me feel physically and mentally good...

    Example(s):

    - If I’m trying to add mass and I’m still hungry at the end of the day, am I just going to go to bed hungry even if I’ve ‘hit my numbers’? No, why would I? I have no desire to be miserable and poorly impact my sleep... so counting makes no sense if I’m just going to honor the hunger anyway.

    - If I wanted to try and lose fat, I know what an energy deficit feels like, so what’s the point in tracking it?

    - If I wanted to maintain, I know what it feels like to not be hungry but also not be overfull (aka, around maintenance)... so again, what’s the point of writing it down other than just doing it out of habit?



    In essence, I would rather eat an amount that ‘feels good’ based on my internal cues and feedback mechanisms than force myself to eat an amount that only exists because I wrote it down regardless of wanting more, or less, etc...

    It ends up being a waste of time for me, so I just don’t do it.

    I’m finding the amount of mental freedom really, really amazing.

    Sometimes, you never know how or how much a habit effects you until you stop doing it.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-15-2020 at 09:33 AM.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Everyone is different.

    I found over time that I’m so good at eyeballing, etc, that if I really wanted to target things, I could, because I’ve tested out not tracking things as the day goes on and I end up within 5% every time.

    But the main reason I just don’t see the point is because I’ll always choose an amount of food that makes me feel physically and mentally good...

    If I’m trying to add mass and I’m still hungry at the end of the day, am I just going to go to bed hungry even if I’ve ‘hit my numbers’? No, why would I? I have no desire to be miserable and poorly impact my sleep... so counting makes no sense if I’m just going to honor the hunger anyway.

    If I wanted to try and lose fat, I know what an energy deficit feels like, so what’s the point in tracking it?

    If I wanted to maintain, I know what it feels like to not be hungry but also not be overfull (aka, around maintenance)... so again, what’s the point of writing it down other than just doing it out of habit?

    In essence, I would rather eat an amount that ‘feels good’ based on my internal cues and feedback mechanisms than force myself to eat an amount that only exists because I wrote it down regardless of wanting more, or less, etc...

    It ends up being a waste of time for me, so I just don’t do it.

    I’m finding the amount of mental freedom really, really amazing.

    Sometimes, you never know how or how much a habit effects you until you stop doing it.
    The reason I believe everyone should try tracking, even if temporarily, is because a lot of people don't know what true hunger feels like or make proper food choices to satisfy that hunger. It's a huge teaching tool but like I said, depending on the individual, it can become a huge detriment if they feel like they are a slave to it.

    Agree completely about not understanding how habits are negatively effecting you until you stop them. You don't know the grass is greener if you never look at the other side.
    Life is constant learning. Give advice about things you know. Ask questions about things you don't.

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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    im 5 10'' and 170 lbs, really lean and i lift 6 days a week (not a heavy routine its basically a full body workout split into 2) , do jump rope hiit 3 days a week and probablywalk about an hour a day (toclass, to store etc) . anyways my rda seems to be around 3200 or so and im consuming about 170g ofprotein per day and im getting all my nutrients thorough food and supplements yet unless i eat about 4000 calories my stomach always feels empty and i cant sleep , my lifts suffer, my sex drive suffers etc . im not gaining fat in fact ive been eatting 4000 a day for a few weeks and my body fat seems to be slowly decreasing and ive gained 10-12 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but i xcant understand why i need 4000 calories to feel satisfied?? its really inconvient to eat this much and it can get expensive and apparently this is more then some nfl players eat. i eat high fibre, fat and protein so its not like im eatting refinded sugars and carbs. couldanyone maybe shed some light on this? im 22 if that helps
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    The reason I believe everyone should try tracking, even if temporarily, is because a lot of people don't know what true hunger feels like or make proper food choices to satisfy that hunger. It's a huge teaching tool but like I said, depending on the individual, it can become a huge detriment if they feel like they are a slave to it.

    Agree completely about not understanding how habits are negatively effecting you until you stop them. You don't know the grass is greener if you never look at the other side.
    YUP, and this is what I always say.

    Learn about macros, micros, reading food labels, etc, so you know roughly what portions and calories and the contents look like, and you can match these to how they effect your energy and fullness for a while.

    Once you feel like you're a seasoned 'tracker', ease off of it, test it out, see how 'close' you get, and then put in as little conscious effort as is needed to get the results you want without causing any added stress.

    Could I possible make .01% better progress if I measured everything out and spent tons of time planning everything?

    Yeah, sure, but what else would I be giving up for that .01%? WAY too much to make it worth it.

    if I can get 99% of the results I can possibly hope to achieve by putting in 1/10 of the effort it would take to get 100%.... why would I bother trying so hard to be precise?
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-15-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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    I agree that tracking or CICO goes hand and hand with hormones or what Adam is describing as going by feel and the more knowledge you have the better. Even after a year grinding away Im still learning things and making mistakes and correcting. Everyone is a bit different but knowing the caloric values of foods is very important for choosing good cutting food. Healthy food is not really enough of a distinction for me as lots of healthy foods IE cashews are just not very good cutting foods for me.

    While pizza or a cheeseburger is not the most healthy food I personally find these things to be better for me than the nuts possibly because that is just what I want and eating it gets rid of my hunger and prevents the binge. Knowing that the pizza or a fast food burger has a high amount of calories helps you realize its the kind of food you cannot eat twice a day in overly large portions so if I'm craving McDonalds Ill get a double quarter ponder and drop the fries or maybe i want the fries so I'll get a double cheeseburger instead of the larger sandwich knowing the caloric value is important so you don't shovel too much in. Also knowing the general macros is nice because you can then go OK I had a 750 calorie burger full of fat for lunch so tonight is a good candidate for a leaner veggies and chicken breast style of dinner. On the opposite side of the spectrum if i just got a half size salad because i was not very hungry its a great night to order that pizza I like.

    Also it takes practice to figure out what foods satisfy you the most per calorie. While i try to make sure im working some fruit and veggies into the diet adn they do help to make me feel full they dont always stop the hunger feeling. Its as if they don't satisfy the "flavor craving" or some nebulous idea like that so well. So learning that a 90 calorie bag of quaker rice cakes satisfies my craving just as much as 500 calorie tube of pringles takes time to learn and I'm sure everyone is a bit different in that regard but once i have the knowledge I can add rice cakes to my normal Tuesday shopping routine and it just get easier and easier the more you not only learn the brass tax of how things work but learn your own body. It can even be things outside of the kind of food into the realm of mental i do much better buying snack foods in small pre packaged containers than when I buy large tubs of the exact same thing.
    Last edited by XinXom; 01-15-2020 at 12:20 PM.
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    I agree that tracking or CICO goes hand and hand with hormones or what Adam is describing as going by feel and the more knowledge you have the better. Even after a year grinding away Im still learning things and making mistakes and correcting. Everyone is a bit different but knowing the caloric values of foods is very important for choosing good cutting food. Healthy food is not really enough of a distinction for me as lots of healthy foods IE cashews are just not very good cutting foods for me. Also while pizza or a cheeseburger is not the most healthy food I personally find these things to be better for me than the nuts possibly because that is just what I want and eating it gets rid of my hunger and prevents the binge. Knowing that the pizza or a fast food burger has a high amount of calories helps you realize its the kind of food you cannot eat twice a day in overly large portions so if I'm craving McDonalds Ill get a double quarter ponder and drop the fries or maybe i want the fries so I'll get a double cheeseburger instead of the larger sandwich knowing the caloric value is important so you don't shovel too much in. Also knowing the general macros is nice because you can then go OK I had a 750 calorie burger full of fat for lunch so tonight is a good candidate for a leaner veggies and chicken breast style of dinner. On the opposite side of the spectrum if i just got a half size salad because i was not very hungry its a great night to order that pizza I like. Also it takes practice to figure out what foods satisfy you the most per calorie. While i try to make sure im working some fruit and veggies into the diet adn they do help to make me feel full they dont always stop the hunger feeling. Its as if they don't satisfy the "flavor craving" or some nebulous idea like that so well. So learning that a 90 calorie bag of quaker rice cakes satisfies my craving just as much as 500 calorie tube of pringles takes time to learn and I'm sure everyone is a bit different in that regard but once i have the knowledge I can add rice cakes to my normal Tuesday shopping routine and it just get easier and easier the more you not only learn the brass tax of how things work but learn your own body. It can even be things outside of the kind of food into the realm of mental i do much better buying snack foods in small pre packaged containers than when I buy large tubs of the exact same thing.
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    im 5 10'' and 170 lbs, really lean and i lift 6 days a week (not a heavy routine its basically a full body workout split into 2) , do jump rope hiit 3 days a week and probablywalk about an hour a day (toclass, to store etc) . anyways my rda seems to be around 3200 or so and im consuming about 170g ofprotein per day and im getting all my nutrients thorough food and supplements yet unless i eat about 4000 calories my stomach always feels empty and i cant sleep , my lifts suffer, my sex drive suffers etc . im not gaining fat in fact ive been eatting 4000 a day for a few weeks and my body fat seems to be slowly decreasing and ive gained 10-12 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but i xcant understand why i need 4000 calories to feel satisfied?? its really inconvient to eat this much and it can get expensive and apparently this is more then some nfl players eat. i eat high fibre, fat and protein so its not like im eatting refinded sugars and carbs. couldanyone maybe shed some light on this? im 22 if that helps
    Low sex drive isnt a sideeffect of low cal diet especially you , eating 4k idkk if suggest u to go check bloodwork and to see if there is any problem, or myb gut problem, my workmate had this problem he was able to eat like nonstop he was chewing food all the time, he got checked and he find out he had SIBO so if u havent done any checkups or bloodwork id suggest u
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    Same brotha. I have to eat about 3700 calories daily (I weigh and track all my meals) to even fill remotely near satisfied and im 6'0 190.
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