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    Registered User SPEEDKING97's Avatar
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    why do i need so many calories to feel satisfied?

    im 5 10'' and 170 lbs, really lean and i lift 6 days a week (not a heavy routine its basically a full body workout split into 2) , do jump rope hiit 3 days a week and probablywalk about an hour a day (toclass, to store etc) . anyways my rda seems to be around 3200 or so and im consuming about 170g ofprotein per day and im getting all my nutrients thorough food and supplements yet unless i eat about 4000 calories my stomach always feels empty and i cant sleep , my lifts suffer, my sex drive suffers etc . im not gaining fat in fact ive been eatting 4000 a day for a few weeks and my body fat seems to be slowly decreasing and ive gained 10-12 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but i xcant understand why i need 4000 calories to feel satisfied?? its really inconvient to eat this much and it can get expensive and apparently this is more then some nfl players eat. i eat high fibre, fat and protein so its not like im eatting refinded sugars and carbs. couldanyone maybe shed some light on this? im 22 if that helps
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    im 5 10'' and 170 lbs, really lean and i lift 6 days a week (not a heavy routine its basically a full body workout split into 2) , do jump rope hiit 3 days a week and probablywalk about an hour a day (toclass, to store etc) . anyways my rda seems to be around 3200 or so and im consuming about 170g ofprotein per day and im getting all my nutrients thorough food and supplements yet unless i eat about 4000 calories my stomach always feels empty and i cant sleep , my lifts suffer, my sex drive suffers etc . im not gaining fat in fact ive been eatting 4000 a day for a few weeks and my body fat seems to be slowly decreasing and ive gained 10-12 lbs of muscle in 6 months, but i xcant understand why i need 4000 calories to feel satisfied?? its really inconvient to eat this much and it can get expensive and apparently this is more then some nfl players eat. i eat high fibre, fat and protein so its not like im eatting refinded sugars and carbs. couldanyone maybe shed some light on this? im 22 if that helps
    If you gained 10-12lb in 6 months, then that's a good rate of gaining if you're staying lean....

    How active are you outside of the gym?

    I think most people would LOVE being able to eat that much ;o)
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    Registered User SPEEDKING97's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    If you gained 10-12lb in 6 months, then that's a good rate of gaining if you're staying lean....

    How active are you outside of the gym?

    I think most people would LOVE being able to eat that much ;o)
    hey thanks for the response. other then walking to and from places (maybe around 45 minutes a dya or something like that) im actually really sedentary. whileit may seem like a good problem to have, its tough to afford this much food as im in school atm.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    hey thanks for the response. other then walking to and from places (maybe around 45 minutes a dya or something like that) im actually really sedentary. whileit may seem like a good problem to have, its tough to afford this much food as im in school atm.
    How long do your workouts in the gym last?

    Also, how do you actually track your intake? Do you weight stuff and log it?
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    Registered User SPEEDKING97's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    How long do your workouts in the gym last?

    Also, how do you actually track your intake? Do you weight stuff and log it?
    about 45 minutes. i work every muscle group through various lifts, the common ones like squats and bench plus a few accessory lifts. my routine is a 3 day/week full body workout that i split into 2 cause i like going to the gym everyday and i have more energy this way. i dont use a scale to track or anything but i keep a rough mental estimation everytime i eat, im deffinetly putting back 4000. alot of eggs, bacon, whey protein, peanut butter, fruit/veggies, sardines (dont judge lol if u eat enough of them they start to taste good :P), larabars/granola bars (healthy ones), chicken breast, bagels, full fat yogurt, cheese etc i could probably eat better but i hate cooking and im on a budget. i dont eat alot of red meat so sometimes i wonder if thats a problem but i supplement iron and zinc . i always make sure im getting protein/fat/fibre at every meal.
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    about 45 minutes. i work every muscle group through various lifts, the common ones like squats and bench plus a few accessory lifts. my routine is a 3 day/week full body workout that i split into 2 cause i like going to the gym everyday and i have more energy this way. i dont use a scale to track or anything but i keep a rough mental estimation everytime i eat, im deffinetly putting back 4000. alot of eggs, bacon, whey protein, peanut butter, fruit/veggies, sardines (dont judge lol if u eat enough of them they start to taste good :P), larabars/granola bars (healthy ones), chicken breast, bagels, full fat yogurt, cheese etc i could probably eat better but i hate cooking and im on a budget. i dont eat alot of red meat so sometimes i wonder if thats a problem but i supplement iron and zinc . i always make sure im getting protein/fat/fibre at every meal.
    Try weighing and logging it for a week and then come back and see if you are really hitting 4000 calories. It sounds like you are guessing.

    I can think of a lot worse problems then eating 4000 calories and no gaining weight (jealous of course as I am cutting and no where near 4000 calories a day)
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Try weighing and logging it for a week and then come back and see if you are really hitting 4000 calories. It sounds like you are guessing.

    I can think of a lot worse problems then eating 4000 calories and no gaining weight (jealous of course as I am cutting and no where near 4000 calories a day)
    x2 on this.

    Saying you eat ‘a lot’ can mean anything and eyeballing portions of meat, etc, could mean over the course of a day you’re off by hundreds or even a thousand calories or more.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-09-2020 at 12:50 PM.
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    Ya know, I get why people say "Man, you're lucky you have to eat that much!"

    BUT..

    If person A has to maintain on 4000 calories while person B has to maintain on 2500 calories, they both should be experiencing the same levels of hunger throughout the day, energy, etc. if food choices and other factors are held constant. So, really it's an unlucky situation. The only added factor to person A is they are likely having to spend more money on food.

    Is my logic flawed here in some way?
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    Registered User hardyboysare's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    Ya know, I get why people say "Man, you're lucky you have to eat that much!"

    BUT..

    If person A has to maintain on 4000 calories while person B has to maintain on 2500 calories, they both should be experiencing the same levels of hunger throughout the day, energy, etc. if food choices and other factors are held constant. So, really it's an unlucky situation. The only added factor to person A is they are likely having to spend more money on food.

    Is my logic flawed here in some way?
    From my experience for what it is worth calories don't match hunger if it did why are people overweight even when they eat 'healthy' foods. Likewise when someone has a lower caloric level they are unable to enjoy foods on such a level someone who has a higher caloric level for example using your individuals (we shall assume male for this example):-

    Person A has 4000 maintenance therefore in the evening he can have a ice cream sundae (lets say 500-600 calories sundae) as he has only eaten 3500 calories through the day which is still a solid amount of food and not worry one bit hell he may even still be losing weight.

    Person B would need to eat the average women's calories (2000) in order to eat that sundae and not gain weight.

    So personally I find individuals who can not gain weight at 4000 as a luxury as it offers so much freedom with not only food choices but also a lot more control of just eating what they like without being too concerned as hell they have 4000 calories to play with.

    I find on my bulks that I am hungry even when I am eating at a surplus, I could eat more low calories food for the volume but again there is a point where you think bloody hell I am bulking yet I am eating as if I am cutting (stereotypical speaking and veg gets a tad boring), I have never needed to force eat to gain weight. Not to mention hunger levels generally increase to a point when you start eating more so someone who has little range to play with can easily find their hunger levels go beyond their surplus TDEE, where I doubt the individual who needs 4000 calories to gain weight has adaptive hunger cues that increase by that much (based on the individuals who post on this forum that they can't eat enough).

    On top of that cutting must be breeze for people with a TDEE of 4000 cut calories to 3000 which is more then the average male and you will lose 2lb a week sounds very easy to me. Where that guy who eats 2500 calories to maintain would need to cut to 1500 calories for the same weight loss that is not a lot of food........

    This is just my experience of course.
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    Registered User SPEEDKING97's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Try weighing and logging it for a week and then come back and see if you are really hitting 4000 calories. It sounds like you are guessing.

    I can think of a lot worse problems then eating 4000 calories and no gaining weight (jealous of course as I am cutting and no where near 4000 calories a day)
    thanks for the reply. its not that im guessing, its more keeping a mental note. ie ill eat 3 eggs so in my mind im like ok thats 200 calories oh i cooked it in a tablespoon of butter ok thats 75 calories, 2 scoops of vanilla whey oh thats 250 calories...as you can see i estimate the amount to be lower than it actually is, i do that for all the food i eat (unless im eatting out, in that case who knows how much im eatting but thats not most days). trust me guys, im eatting 4000 if not more. anyways, its not really that big of a problem obviously and ive manged to keep the cost down for the most part, i was just curious...im gonna chock it up to a fast metabolism and the fact i have very little bodyfat while im putting on muscle.
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    Is not a must
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    From my experience for what it is worth calories don't match hunger if it did why are people overweight even when they eat 'healthy' foods. Likewise when someone has a lower caloric level they are unable to enjoy foods on such a level someone who has a higher caloric level for example using your individuals (we shall assume male for this example):-

    Person A has 4000 maintenance therefore in the evening he can have a ice cream sundae (lets say 500-600 calories sundae) as he has only eaten 3500 calories through the day which is still a solid amount of food and not worry one bit hell he may even still be losing weight.

    Person B would need to eat the average women's calories (2000) in order to eat that sundae and not gain weight.

    So personally I find individuals who can not gain weight at 4000 as a luxury as it offers so much freedom with not only food choices but also a lot more control of just eating what they like without being too concerned as hell they have 4000 calories to play with.

    I find on my bulks that I am hungry even when I am eating at a surplus, I could eat more low calories food for the volume but again there is a point where you think bloody hell I am bulking yet I am eating as if I am cutting (stereotypical speaking and veg gets a tad boring), I have never needed to force eat to gain weight. Not to mention hunger levels generally increase to a point when you start eating more so someone who has little range to play with can easily find their hunger levels go beyond their surplus TDEE, where I doubt the individual who needs 4000 calories to gain weight has adaptive hunger cues that increase by that much (based on the individuals who post on this forum that they can't eat enough).

    On top of that cutting must be breeze for people with a TDEE of 4000 cut calories to 3000 which is more then the average male and you will lose 2lb a week sounds very easy to me. Where that guy who eats 2500 calories to maintain would need to cut to 1500 calories for the same weight loss that is not a lot of food........

    This is just my experience of course.
    This. All other things being equal, a higher TDEE definitely makes it easier to lose weight. Tall people tend to be thinner for a reason, and it's way easier to overeat on 2k per day than 3k. One "treat' and you're in a surplus, not to mention the fact that you get more carbs to play around with to potentially improve your energy levels on a higher intake.
    Last edited by Strawng; 01-09-2020 at 08:35 PM.
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    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    This. All other things being equal, a higher TDEE definitely makes it easier to lose weight. Tall people tend to be thinner for a reason, and it's way easier to overeat on 2k per day than 3k. One "treat' and you're in a surplus, not to mention the fact that you get more carbs to play around with to potentially improve your energy levels on a higher intake.
    Definitely true.

    Also (slightly off subject), individuals vary hugely in terms of their preoccupation with food/their general interest in satisfying taste pleasure which can often mimic what most see as ‘hunger’, when in fact it is quite different.

    A person can be physically full/satiated but still have the capacity and desire mentally to consume more... hence why desserts are sweeter by nature: it’s easier to consume hyper palatable food even if you’re physically full.

    I think the difference is that some people are simply more ‘OK’ with being satisfied/full whereas others feel better after they are slightly over-full.... and knowing the difference can be challenging for most people.

    From an evolutionary perspective this makes perfect sense, because as a species it would have benefited our survival to be able to desire more than was needed if our ancestors suddenly came across a food supply that might spoil if it wasn’t quickly consumed. By overeating, we increase the likelihood of surviving periods of scarcity.

    With the modern food environment, we’re basically at odds with our natural tendencies to at least slightly over-consume for survival, not to mention the increasingly cheap, delicious, and readily available foods which are extremely calorie-dense.
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    thanks for the reply. its not that im guessing, its more keeping a mental note.
    That's not tracking your intake.

    You're also not weighing your food.

    Cut the crap. Start weighing your food and use something like MyFitnessPal to add it up.

    You're not eating 4k.

    trust me guys, im eatting 4000 if not more.
    We don't trust people who don't track.
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    From my experience for what it is worth calories don't match hunger if it did why are people overweight even when they eat 'healthy' foods.
    Maybe I misunderstood your post? But from my experience I've never met, seen or heard of an obese individual who became that way eating healthy foods. That just seems a bit contrarian for me. I mean go to Walmart and peek in the shopping carts. Or, hang out at a fast food restaurant and you'll see their food choices.

    You mentioned when bulking and eating more of the same foods consumed while cutting. I agree in that scenario it sometimes makes more sense to go for caloric dense food choices. Which leads me back to why obese individuals choose those those same foods. Apologies if I'm way off on what you were trying to say.
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    Originally Posted by rjoylo2008 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood your post? But from my experience I've never met, seen or heard of an obese individual who became that way eating healthy foods. That just seems a bit contrarian for me. I mean go to Walmart and peek in the shopping carts. Or, hang out at a fast food restaurant and you'll see their food choices.

    You mentioned when bulking and eating more of the same foods consumed while cutting. I agree in that scenario it sometimes makes more sense to go for caloric dense food choices. Which leads me back to why obese individuals choose those those same foods. Apologies if I'm way off on what you were trying to say.
    Well as a big boy I can say "healthy food choices" alone don't mean much. Peanuts are very healthy but if you eat 5-6 handfuls of those a night good luck cutting. While I cant personally say I got huge eating bananas I know at a micro level I have gained a few pounds eating nothing but healthy food during my cut when I messed up. For me its always late at night but there are days I will save 700-1000 calories or half my day for late night snacking / eating since I know I will anyway and I'll end up eating 2000 in nothing but fruits vegetables and lean protein like chicken breast. There are nights i can slam 3 bowls of frozen veggies 5 bananas 2 10+ oz chicken breasts and still feel hungry. I can eat to the point where I don't feel I can fit anything else in my stomach and still feel hungry. So it is certainly possible my TDEE at 285 is under or around 3000 if i'm making all my workout days 2500 or less if i'm being sedentary. I have a friend who is about 160 he has always ate whatever he wanted in insane amounts entire cartons of Oreo's gallons of ice cream entire large pizzas for dinner never seen him without a six pack from age 8 to age 30 so I obviously don't know what his is but its probably higher than mine or similar and at over 100 pounds less of a person. Strange as it sounds often eating only makes me more hungry. There are times I'm at say 1000 calories for the day don't feel hungry at all the I eat my "correct sized dinner" and all the sudden I'm ravenous almost as if the food itself is opening the flood gates to my hunger. Its hard to say if its the food or the timing though as this only happens at night its as if during the day I'm not hungry at all ever then at night I'm a bottomless pit that could eat the entire world but the feeling does not really kick in until i take that first bite.
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    Mrpb hit the nail on the head. No way someone 5'10" and 170# is consuming 4,000 calories/day without putting on some fat and feeling full in the process.

    XinXom - you're getting dangerously close to the heretical suggestion that weight is controlled by hormones.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Mrpb hit the nail on the head. No way someone 5'10" and 170# is consuming 4,000 calories/day without putting on some fat and feeling full in the process.

    XinXom - you're getting dangerously close to the heretical suggestion that weight is controlled by hormones.
    Im not sure I follow you hunger seems to be controlled by hormones or something other than calories in vs calories out. Weight however seems to follow the calories in and out at least for my tracking but the hunger certainly seems to be something different entirely. Also i don think its heretical to think that people have different base BMR if i remember the graph right there is about a 1000 calorie daily difference between the bottom and the top but I had assumed at least some of that was based on size IE the super high BMR at 2500 was for the obese and the super low was for the skinny short guys. The main points I was trying to make though were that first hunger is controlled by something that has no idea how many calories you have recently consumed. Second that healthy foods can still be bad cutting foods if they are calorie dense. Third that it is very possible to overeat even if you eat healthy and low calorie dense foods if you still eat way too much.
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    Originally Posted by XinXom View Post
    The main points I was trying to make though were that first hunger is controlled by something that has no idea how many calories you have recently consumed. Second that healthy foods can still be bad cutting foods if they are calorie dense. Third that it is very possible to overeat even if you eat healthy and low calorie dense foods if you still eat way too much.
    'Hunger' is influenced by MANY different things, which includes hormones, fullness/stomach capacity, pressure/fullness in the gut from food/gas, BMR, stress/mental distraction/focus on food, even things such as sound/smell/visual cues can make someone feel 'hunger'.

    The term 'hunger' is very nebulous...

    If we consider hunger as any desire to eat... then surely we need to consider more than just 1-2 possible factors.


    But there is a difference between what regulates hunger and what regulates bodyweight. Hormonal fluctuations in healthy persons have more to do with how hungry you feel, and thus can influence calorie intake which then determines bodyweight... but it's not the same as hormones dictating how the energy you ingest is used.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    'Hunger' is influenced by MANY different things, which includes hormones, fullness/stomach capacity, pressure/fullness in the gut from food/gas, BMR, stress/mental distraction/focus on food, even things such as sound/smell/visual cues can make someone feel 'hunger'.

    The term 'hunger' is very nebulous...

    If we consider hunger as any desire to eat... then surely we need to consider more than just 1-2 possible factors.
    So true. Another HUGE factor from my experience is habit as well.

    When I used to eat much of the same meals at the same times of the day and meal time approached I felt "hunger". However, it was more of the expectancy of habitual intake at that time. A few times when life dictated that I waited, I found that I really wasn't PHYSICALLY hungry for another good hour and a half or so most of the time.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    So true. Another HUGE factor from my experience is habit as well.

    When I used to eat much of the same meals at the same times of the day and meal time approached I felt "hunger". However, it was more of the expectancy of habitual intake at that time. A few times when life dictated that I waited, I found that I really wasn't PHYSICALLY hungry for another good hour and a half or so most of the time.
    Yup, totally, and even some of that is hormonal too... because we can produce hunger hormones based on habit, it's really fascinating.... your body can actually spike them when your mind think you should be eating based on typical schedules.

    However, it's ALSO physical to some degree, because digestion can/will also adjust to empty/move according to timing as well.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Yup, totally, and even some of that is hormonal too... because we can produce hunger hormones based on habit, it's really fascinating.... your body can actually spike them when your mind think you should be eating based on typical schedules.

    However, it's ALSO physical to some degree, because digestion can/will also adjust to empty/move according to timing as well.
    Wow, that is fascinating.

    I remember reading a study not too long about the way we "think" about what we're eating and the correlation to how our body uses it. If I remember correctly, more positive thoughts towards the food you eat like "This food is going to repair my body from my hard workout" vs. "Man, this food is going to make me fat" dictates to a certain degree of how your body treats the nutrients in the food. Possible making it more favorable to your thoughts about the food. Possibly suggesting a bigger mental and digestive correlation to food.

    Might have some of the details wrong, probably do. Will try to dig it up later. Either way, it's absolutely incredible to think about.
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    Originally Posted by SPEEDKING97 View Post
    about 45 minutes. i work every muscle group through various lifts, the common ones like squats and bench plus a few accessory lifts. my routine is a 3 day/week full body workout that i split into 2 cause i like going to the gym everyday and i have more energy this way. i dont use a scale to track or anything but i keep a rough mental estimation everytime i eat, im deffinetly putting back 4000. alot of eggs, bacon, whey protein, peanut butter, fruit/veggies, sardines (dont judge lol if u eat enough of them they start to taste good :P), larabars/granola bars (healthy ones), chicken breast, bagels, full fat yogurt, cheese etc i could probably eat better but i hate cooking and im on a budget. i dont eat alot of red meat so sometimes i wonder if thats a problem but i supplement iron and zinc . i always make sure im getting protein/fat/fibre at every meal.

    Probably need to up veggies.

    If your body craves certain minerals and vitamins you stay hungry.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    Wow, that is fascinating.

    I remember reading a study not too long about the way we "think" about what we're eating and the correlation to how our body uses it. If I remember correctly, more positive thoughts towards the food you eat like "This food is going to repair my body from my hard workout" vs. "Man, this food is going to make me fat" dictates to a certain degree of how your body treats the nutrients in the food. Possible making it more favorable to your thoughts about the food. Possibly suggesting a bigger mental and digestive correlation to food.

    Might have some of the details wrong, probably do. Will try to dig it up later. Either way, it's absolutely incredible to think about.
    From what I've seen much of the impacts from the 'attitudes' around food are transient in nature when applied to the same food/meal type.

    Over time, it seems that people 'get used to' the impact of a particular type of food/meal and things start to level out, which makes sense when we consider how people tend to crave what they don't have on a regular basis.

    But all in all, calories in/out will always be the deciding factor in 99.9% of weight regulation scenarios... it's really just how easy managing that balance is that is impacted by the hormonal response.

    I posted a study recently which looked at the ghrelin response of the same exact Milkshake when test subjects were told it has either HIGH or LOW caloric value, and those told the milkshake was HIGH in calories has a totally different grehlin response and resulting satiety than those who were told it was lower calorie... when in fact the shakes were the same: https://www.dishlab.org/pubs/Crum%202011.pdf



    More info here (thanks Heisman): https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...24224414002386
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-10-2020 at 11:16 AM.
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    Well you're 22 and pretty active.

    I've been eating 3,200 calories and not exactly piling on the fat and I'm 39 so I don't find it beyond the realms of possibility that you need 4,000.

    However as pointed out you haven't been weighing and tracking so over the course of the day you could be several hundred or even close to 1,000 calories out.

    I've always found it helps to eat less early in the day when I'm busy and then fill up towards the end of the day.

    I must admit occasionally it's nice to have a junk meal made up of a large portion of fries and loads of fatty and sugary cr*p as sometimes it's the only way I feel truly full.
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    Originally Posted by rjoylo2008 View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood your post? But from my experience I've never met, seen or heard of an obese individual who became that way eating healthy foods. That just seems a bit contrarian for me. I mean go to Walmart and peek in the shopping carts. Or, hang out at a fast food restaurant and you'll see their food choices.
    First lets split the difference and state I defined overweight and not obese individuals as there is a clear difference in eating habits and food choices but in theory the process is the same:-

    Lets play a short game in order to highlight what I mean (humour me on this) likewise I will state there maybe some cultural differences exist but this based on eating habits in terms of 'healthy' within the UK:-

    Lets take our 2500 calorie man as stated above and we shall call him Bob (nice good solid name as well) he is overweight his doctor is advising he loses some weight for his health. Likewise he has noticed his suits are getting more then just snug in the last few years and well his belly is overhanging a little too much recently so with his wife help (who we shall call Sue) is helping him choose 'healthier' foods as advised by the doctor:-

    Breakfast - Bob starts his day off with a nice bowl of Muesli and a glass of orange instead of his usual pop tart and cappuccino, as he needs his vitamin c and all the healthiness of Muesli.

    Lunch - Bob has spent a hard morning in the office in front of his computer and now decides lunch is in order. Usually he enjoys a nice bacon roll and a packet of crisps (chips for the Americans) and maybe a choc bar. This time he is being good and having some whole wheat crackers, cucumber sticks, carrots and a pot of 200g red pepper hummus from Asda (Walmart) as well as this in his bag he has a banana and a granola bar.

    Snack - Bob returns from work and he is exhausted its another long day at work so he is look forward to seeing his loving Wife Sue and help get dinner ready (modern man you see our Bob is). Before dinner is ready though Bob is a bit hungry he would usually have another packet of crisps but he is being healthy therefore he goes for a handful for pumpkin seeds as Sue tells him all the health experts advise it.

    Dinner - Bob has been looking forward to his main meal usually its something like roast chicken or maybe a pie. This time with Sue's new healthy meal book they have made Salmon and cous cous and feta salad dashed with some extra virgin oil for healthy fats and a glass of coconut milk.

    Snack - Before bed Bob decides he has been good today so he can have one treat as he has stuck to his healthy eating plan. So he decides to have kitkat before bed.... but Sue looks at him disappointed so he forces himself to have a slice of wholemeal toast with smashed avocado (poor man).

    Now the question I ask you is Bob being healthy?

    And secondly what Bob has eaten today how will that effect his goals of losing weight?
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 01-10-2020 at 11:55 AM.
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    First lets split the difference and state I defined overweight and not obese individuals as there is a clear difference in eating habits and food choices but in theory the process is the same:-

    Lets play a short game in order to highlight what I mean (humour me on this) likewise I will state there maybe some cultural differences exist but this based on eating habits in terms of 'healthy' within the UK:-

    Lets take our 2500 calorie man as stated above and we shall call him Bob (nice good solid name as well) he is overweight his doctor is advising he loses some weight for his health. Likewise he has noticed his suits are getting more then just snug in the last few years and well his belly is overhanging a little too much recently so with his wife help (who we shall call Sue) is helping him choose 'healthier' foods as advised by the doctor:-

    Breakfast - Bob starts his day off with a nice bowl of Muesli and a glass of orange instead of his usual pop tart and cappuccino, as he needs his vitamin c and all the healthiness of Muesli.

    Lunch - Bob has spent a hard morning in the office in front of his computer and now decides lunch is in order. Usually he enjoys a nice bacon roll and a packet of crisps (chips for the Americans) and maybe a choc bar. This time he is being good and having some whole wheat crackers, cucumber sticks, carrots and a pot of 200g red pepper hummus from Asda (Walmart) as well as this in his bag he has a banana and a granola bar.

    Snack - Bob returns from work and he is exhausted its another long day at work so he is look forward to seeing his loving Wife Sue and help get dinner ready (modern man you see our Bob is). Before dinner is ready though Bob is a bit hungry he would usually have another packet of crisps but he is being healthy therefore he goes for a handful for pumpkin seeds as Sue tells him all the health experts advise it.

    Dinner - Bob has been looking forward to his main meal usually its something like roast chicken or maybe a pie. This time with Sue's new healthy meal book they have made Salmon and cous cous and feta salad dashed with some extra virgin oil for healthy fats and a glass of coconut milk.

    Snack - Before bed Bob decides he has been good today so he can have one treat as he has stuck to his healthy eating plan. So he decides to have kitkat before bed.... but Sue looks at him disappointed so he forces himself to have a slice of wholemeal toast with smashed avocado (poor man).

    Now the question I ask you is Bob being healthy?

    And secondly what Bob has eaten today how will that effect his goals of losing weight?
    Good point.

    'healthy' can be subjective, and 'healthy' does not mean low-calorie.

    Many, many people make that mistake when they're uneducated, for sure.

    I think many of us on this forum make the mistake of assuming the average person is as cognizant of the nutritional content of food as we are.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    From what I've seen much of the impacts from the 'attitudes' around food are transient in nature when applied to the same food/meal type.

    Over time, it seems that people 'get used to' the impact of a particular type of food/meal and things start to level out, which makes sense when we consider how people tend to crave what they don't have on a regular basis.

    But all in all, calories in/out will always be the deciding factor in 99.9% of weight regulation scenarios... it's really just how easy managing that balance is that is impacted by the hormonal response.

    I posted a study recently which looked at the ghrelin response of the same exact Milkshake when test subjects were told it has either HIGH or LOW caloric value, and those told the milkshake was HIGH in calories has a totally different grehlin response and resulting satiety than those who were told it was lower calorie... when in fact the shakes were the same: https://www.dishlab.org/pubs/Crum%202011.pdf



    More info here (thanks Heisman): https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...24224414002386
    I remember you posting that and thinking it was fascinating as well.

    Al the mental-physical connection between fitness and health is what really gets me going. All of it just so interesting.
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    Now the question I ask you is Bob being healthy?
    It seems that for this particular day he certainly made healthier choices than he normally does.

    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    And secondly what Bob has eaten today how will that effect his goals of losing weight?
    Double-edged sword. If he could maintain this "healthy" eating forever, then eventually he would lose weight without even counting calories because his body would be responsive to the hormonal cues in his new "healthy" food (which do not exist in ultra-processed, hyper-palatable foods). HOWEVER, that won't happen as he has spent many years overweight, so his body is virtually hard-wired to fight against him. Eventually he will give in one day and enjoy a small piece of candy. A few days later, another. After a few weeks his diet will only be "semi-healthy". After a few months he'll be right back to where he started.

    Adam described a few of the body's defense mechanisms in #19--it's pretty amazing how well the body is designed to handle calorie surplus or calorie restriction and bounce back in a homeostatic manner. Bob has had all of those mechanisms get hijacked and turned against him by a capitalist system that values food-for-profit over the health of its people.
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post
    I remember you posting that and thinking it was fascinating as well.

    Al the mental-physical connection between fitness and health is what really gets me going. All of it just so interesting.
    That's why I am so in favor of people learning the details around nutrition, food choices, their effects, etc, and THEN moving toward a method of eating which doesn't involve 'tracking' specifically.


    When you're aware of average calories contents, protein amounts, fiber, fats, etc in foods, you can become able to average out enough so that you can eat 'intuitively' without gaining too much excess fat because you're aware of how fullness, hunger, and cravings are related but also what the difference feels like.

    Personally, I can easily tell what is a 'true' need for energy and what is me just being able to eat something because it's delicious.
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