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  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    It seems that for this particular day he certainly made healthier choices than he normally does.



    Double-edged sword. If he could maintain this "healthy" eating forever, then eventually he would lose weight without even counting calories because his body would be responsive to the hormonal cues in his new "healthy" food (which do not exist in ultra-processed, hyper-palatable foods). HOWEVER, that won't happen as he has spent many years overweight, so his body is virtually hard-wired to fight against him. Eventually he will give in one day and enjoy a small piece of candy. A few days later, another. After a few weeks his diet will only be "semi-healthy". After a few months he'll be right back to where he started.
    The problem isnt necessarily that Bob's chance of adherence to 'healthy' eating is low we will never know that. The problem is his healthy eating comes to over 3000 calories a day.

    He has a TDEE of 2500 so no matter how healthy it seems Bob is still gaining weight therefore it's not healthy for him.

    Likewise it highlights how easy it is to eat 'healthy' food yet still come overweight. I am sure everyone sees it around this time of year where work colleagues are tucking into the new healthy food fad yet pay no heed to the calories involved as it's 'healthy'.
    Last edited by hardyboysare; 01-10-2020 at 04:23 PM.
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  2. #32
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Bob won't be able to maintain a 500-calorie surplus eating that way. He may be able to overeat for a few days, but eventually his body will send him signals (hormones) that make him eat less. He will only be able to maintain a 500-calorie surplus if his adherence slips and he slowly starts to introduce crappy food again. The calories issue takes care of itself if the food is wholesome.

    There are plenty of randomized, controlled trials showing that if you feed one group of people processed foods and another group of people whole foods, the processed-foods group will always overeat and the whole-foods group will always undereat.
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  3. #33
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    the whole-foods group will always undereat.
    I've never seen a study showing this. Do you have a link?
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I've never seen a study showing this. Do you have a link?
    I think there's one fresh out of Riptmarine's alma mater in the fine labs at Broscience University. Nah, but in all srsness, studies show people tend to eat less whole foods than processed foods with the same macro composition. They say nothing of "always" undereating with whole foods. That's absurd and demonstrably false from even just my personal experience and that of countless binge eaters who are morbidly obese from binging on "health foods".
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I think there's one fresh out of Riptmarine's alma mater in the fine labs at Broscience University. Nah, but in all srsness, studies show people tend to eat less whole foods than processed foods with the same macro composition. They say nothing of "always" undereating with whole foods. That's absurd and demonstrably false from even just my personal experience and that of countless binge eaters who are morbidly obese from binging on "health foods".
    hahaha

    For sure, whole foods would 100% mean less than processed.

    But like you said I don't think it'd mean they would 'always' eat in a calorie deficit... I don't imagine that's the case.

    I mean I could easily destroy a tin of mixed nuts in a sitting, no problem, and still be fine eating more...


    Now if you ensure people eat large amounts of fruits and vegetables and do not over-season their food OR use condiments, then yeah I could see people not gaining weight eating nothing but egg whites, cold boiled potatoes, and broccoli... but 'whole foods' alone? Naw.... plenty of high-calorie whole foods.
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  6. #36
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I've never seen a study showing this. Do you have a link?
    There're a lot, but I like the recent "Salt, Sugar, Fat, Fiber" one, because it did a good job of removing the "usual suspects" from the equation and directly laid blame at the feet of processed foods:

    "Had the experimental diets used in our study allowed for greater differences in sugar, fat, and sodium content more typical of differences between ultra-processed versus unprocessed diets, we may have observed larger differences in energy intake."
    It also showed a couple other pieces of evidence for the "weight is managed by hormones" concept. The best part is that Kevin Hall was the lead researcher lol.

    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I mean I could easily destroy a tin of mixed nuts in a sitting, no problem, and still be fine eating more...
    I also can overeat things like nuts or meat, but that doesn't mean that I could sustain a long-term surplus on whole foods without trying to. I doubt you guys could, either. Eventually the foods dull and have to be forced down. The fact that we all also consume processed foods as part of our regular diet is what allows us to be capable of binging on whole foods.

    My main point in #19 was that by the time someone is obese they have established addictions that go far beyond the physiological impact of food. They are psychologically hooked (as XimXom describes). The built-in physiological mechanisms have a hard time competing with that.
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  7. #37
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    There're a lot, but I like the recent "Salt, Sugar, Fat, Fiber" one, because it did a good job of removing the "usual suspects" from the equation and directly laid blame at the feet of processed foods:



    It also showed a couple other pieces of evidence for the "weight is managed by hormones" concept. The best part is that Kevin Hall was the lead researcher lol.



    I also can overeat things like nuts or meat, but that doesn't mean that I could sustain a long-term surplus on whole foods without trying to. I doubt you guys could, either. Eventually the foods dull and have to be forced down. The fact that we all also consume processed foods as part of our regular diet is what allows us to be capable of binging on whole foods.

    My main point in #19 was that by the time someone is obese they have established addictions that go far beyond the physiological impact of food. They are psychologically hooked (as XimXom describes). The built-in physiological mechanisms have a hard time competing with that.
    One thing to note: average BMI was 27, which probably also means they were actually carrying quite a bit of extra fat assuming they weren’t athletes, etc...

    So, losing .9kg on average in that timeframe by changing their diets actually isn’t too surprising given they may have lost water weight, has more fiber, etc...

    It’s definitely an interesting study, but I guess my point here would be that it wasn’t really ‘ad libitum’ in the purest form because they were given specific meals.

    If someone went ahead and just ate what tasted good to them, but kept it to unprocessed food, again they could easily eat lots of dates, nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat, etc.

    Less likely for sure, but something to keep in mind.

    Half a cup of peanuts, 2 bananas, and a marbled steak can still be well over 1000 calories and easy to get down.
    Last edited by AdamWW; 01-10-2020 at 11:32 PM.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    It also showed a couple other pieces of evidence for the "weight is managed by hormones" concept.
    It doesn't actually contain "evidence" for that. What the study did show was that people gained weight when they ate more calories and lost weight when they ate less calories.

    Some of the most vocal proponents of the hormone theory (perhaps not you) believe that some people won't lose weight by caloric restriction because of their hormones. This study shows the opposite: restricting caloric intake tends to lead to weight loss.

    Obviously hormones play an important role in hunger and controlling caloric intake. I don't think any rational person would deny that.

    The quote you selected about sugar, fat, and sodium is a rather strange quote to select. It's just a speculative statement that's not supported by the study.

    I've been able to chat with Kevin Hall about the study. He has several theories on what may have been causing the difference in caloric intake. 2 stood out as most interesting IMO: (1) Even though they tried to equate protein between diets, it didn't work well. The minimally processed diet ended up with a higher percentage of protein. (2) the ultra processed diet lacked fiber. Because of this people had to drink a lot of their fiber.

    They will be running a new study that will address these shortcomings.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 01-11-2020 at 05:39 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by Nicksosure1 View Post

    I remember reading a study not too long about the way we "think" about what we're eating and the correlation to how our body uses it. If I remember correctly, more positive thoughts towards the food you eat like "This food is going to repair my body from my hard workout" vs. "Man, this food is going to make me fat" dictates to a certain degree of how your body treats the nutrients in the food. Possible making it more favorable to your thoughts about the food. Possibly suggesting a bigger mental and digestive correlation to food.
    lol
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  10. #40
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    It doesn't actually contain "evidence" for that. What the study did show was that people gained weight when they ate more calories and lost weight when they ate less calories.
    Hopefully you agree with me that the study also showed why someone would eat more or eat less.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Some of the most vocal proponents of the hormone theory (perhaps not you) believe that some people won't lose weight by caloric restriction because of their hormones. This study shows the opposite: restricting caloric intake tends to lead to weight loss.

    Obviously hormones play an important role in hunger and controlling caloric intake. I don't think any rational person would deny that.
    Who do you consider to be "the most vocal proponents of the hormone theory"? The individuals I consider in that regard all would agree that immediate calorie restriction causes immediate weight loss. They don't question the 1st Law, they just consider it to be insufficient in understanding how obesity starts and how it is cured.

    In addition to controlling energy intake, hormones also control energy output. They also control whether excess energy is stored as fat or used for other purposes. The study made interesting observations about these things.

    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    The quote you selected about sugar, fat, and sodium is a rather strange quote to select. It's just a speculative statement that's not supported by the study.

    I've been able to chat with Kevin Hall about the study. He has several theories on what may have been causing the difference in caloric intake. 2 stood out as most interesting IMO: (1) Even though they tried to equate protein between diets, it didn't work well. The minimally processed diet ended up with a higher percentage of protein. (2) the ultra processed diet lacked fiber. Because of this people had to drink a lot of their fiber.

    They will be running a new study that will address these shortcomings.
    I chose that quote because it's a tacit admission that modern research is already tipping the scales in favor of processed foods. If we didn't tip the scales, the results would be even more pronounced. I consider that to be obvious, not speculative.

    Out of curiosity, based on your (1), what do you think of the protein leverage hypothesis? Is that the implication that Kevin made?
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    I love my power hour MrCarrot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hardyboysare View Post
    I

    The problem isnt necessarily that Bob's chance of adherence to 'healthy' eating is low we will never know that. The problem is his healthy eating comes to over 3000 calories a day.
    Was that food really 3000 calories, because the whole days worth sounded like a starter to me, lol
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    Originally Posted by 3maj View Post
    lol
    I know I know. Goes against science, can't possibly be true, wishful thinking, calories in calories out, we already understand everything, blah blah etc.

    I miss anything?
    Life is constant learning. Give advice about things you know. Ask questions about things you don't.

    *Health and Wellness Coach and Coordinator for all United Bank Branches of Alabama
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    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    Was that food really 3000 calories, because the whole days worth sounded like a starter to me, lol
    Just added it up and yep it's over 3k calories. Weird as I probably eat two, maybe three times the volume of food that Bob does (or whatever his name was) and it only comes to 3k.

    Sometimes I wonder if my version of MFP is glitched!
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by MrCarrot View Post
    Just added it up and yep it's over 3k calories. Weird as I probably eat two, maybe three times the volume of food that Bob does (or whatever his name was) and it only comes to 3k.

    Sometimes I wonder if my version of MFP is glitched!
    Yep it is amazing how little food actually adds up for calories especially as its meant to be healthy. I feel sorry for Bob all he wanted was to lose a couple of lbs and the world of healthy eating has caused him still believe he is eating right but at the end of the day he still wont be losing any weight for his trouble.

    It is easy to see how normal individuals who have no understanding of calorie control can easily fail on a healthy eat plan when trying to lose weight as so many foods are regard as 'healthy' yet they are caloric dense foods or simply not actually that balanced and unprocessed as healthy food is regarded to be.
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Hopefully you agree with me that the study also showed why someone would eat more or eat less.
    We don't know why they ate more. There are many theories possible. It may have been the processing, it may not have been.

    Perhaps I could setup an ultra processed foods diet with some protein bars with significant fiber that would achieve the same weight loss as the minimally processed diet in this study. If true, then we can't say it's the amount of processing causing the excess energy intake.

    Who do you consider to be "the most vocal proponents of the hormone theory"?
    Jason Fung for example. Gary Taubes was another one, although his hypothesis was more specifically the carbohydrate-insulin theory of obesity.

    They don't question the 1st Law, they just consider it to be insufficient in understanding how obesity starts and how it is cured.
    Most rational people who believe in CICO don't believe it is sufficient in explaining why obesity starts. It's just that you have to be in energy surplus in order to become obese. The reason why someone overeats is undoubtedly much more complicated.

    Have you read this article by Lyle McDonald? It appropriately covers some of the common claims around energy balance.

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo...equation.html/

    In addition to controlling energy intake, hormones also control energy output.
    The word control is something I object to. They play an important role, sure, but they don't fully control. Hormones are an important piece of the puzzle, not the managing principle.

    I chose that quote because it's a tacit admission that modern research is already tipping the scales in favor of processed foods. If we didn't tip the scales, the results would be even more pronounced. I consider that to be obvious, not speculative.
    Well the quote doesn't apply to the study and contains the word "may". Researchers can say anything when they use the word "may".

    Out of curiosity, based on your (1), what do you think of the protein leverage hypothesis? Is that the implication that Kevin made?
    Certainly an interesting theory. I think it could be another piece of the puzzle.

    Anecdotally I find it super easy to eat in a constant calorie deficit. Why would that be? I think a combination of a relatively low stress life, good genetics for being lean, a diet high in fiber, protein and minimally processed foods, valuing a lean look and probably many other factors.

    Kevin was very good at not making any implications. It was quite interesting. I don't think I've ever met someone more meticulous in that regard.

    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    If someone went ahead and just ate what tasted good to them, but kept it to unprocessed food, again they could easily eat lots of dates, nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat, etc.
    I find it interesting how you keep putting nuts in there even though the weight of the evidence shows that people who eat more nuts are less likely to overeat.

    Now roasted, salted peanuts removed from their shell may be a different story, I'm not sure. But nuts in general make people less likely to be overweight.

    Avocados probably don't belong in that list either. They're high in fiber and quite satiating. While they're easy to get down, people probably compensate in subsequent energy intake. edit: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/5/952

    Whether minimally processed dates and fatty meat make people more likely to overeat I don't know. I wouldn't just assume they do. There might be some research about it.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 01-12-2020 at 03:16 AM.
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    Not reading all the replies in the thread but OP, in addition to tracking calories also consider how much iron you are getting in as you are taking a supplement. Too much iron may contribute to a lot of health issues down the road. If you are on the high side consider getting your iron levels (ferritin, iron, TIBC) checked.
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    Interesting article about a new review:

    Obesity Epidemic and Junk Food Consumption Go Hand in Hand
    [...]
    Recent human trials have found ultra-processed foods contribute to decreased satiety, increased meal eating rates, worsening biochemical markers, and more weight gain.
    [...]
    Meanwhile, there was an inverse association with weight gain and increased intake of minimally processed foods such as vegetables, grains, nuts, and yogurt.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...38-019-00246-1

    https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/923632
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post


    I find it interesting how you keep putting nuts in there even though the weight of the evidence shows that people who eat more nuts are less likely to overeat.

    Now roasted, salted peanuts removed from their shell may be a different story, I'm not sure. But nuts in general make people less likely to be overweight.

    Avocados probably don't belong in that list either. They're high in fiber and quite satiating. While they're easy to get down, people probably compensate in subsequent energy intake. edit: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/11/5/952

    Whether minimally processed dates and fatty meat make people more likely to overeat I don't know. I wouldn't just assume they do. There might be some research about it.
    Just anecdotal experience having eaten plenty of tins of nuts in my time

    No hard evidence just noting it’s a high calorie whole food which could be easy to overeat compared to some others.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Just anecdotal experience having eaten plenty of tins of nuts in my time

    No hard evidence just noting it’s a high calorie whole food which could be easy to overeat compared to some others.
    Well it's easy to eat a lot of nuts, I agree. But the question is how does that affect satiety, hunger and subsequent energy intake. The science suggests: people who eat more from those high calorie nuts tend to compensate later in the day by eating relatively less calories. End result: they tend to not overeat over the 24h day.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Well it's easy to eat a lot of nuts, I agree. But the question is how does that affect satiety, hunger and subsequent energy intake. The science suggests: people who eat more from those high calorie nuts tend to compensate later in the day by eating relatively less calories. End result: they tend to not overeat over the 24h day.
    Are you actually suggesting that it's nearly impossible to overeat whole foods? I've been bulking with just whole foods for years and nuts are a big part of getting enough cals in, as are avocados. Nuts, nut butters, rice, fatty fish, oats, and avocados comprise the majority of my cals with only a small amount coming from things like cereal/ice cream. Also, where does nut butter stand? I know plenty of people who have binged on pb.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    I know plenty of people who have binged on pb.
    Guilty
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Guilty
    Same. Also, when I needed to gain weight in eating disorder treatment, nuts were a huge part of my exceptionally high intake and I can finish off an entire jar of mixed nuts at times. Nuts may increase satiety and I have scoured the literature and there's no evidence they lead to weight gain (much to the contrary), but that being said, I've still heard countless stories of people gaining weight by adding nuts to their diets because they don't realize how calorically dense they are. The same thing goes for avocados. Brb getting an avocado cheeseburger instead of a bacon one because "avocados are healthy". I think people who are extremely prone to overeating for emotional, metabolic, or genetic reasons could very easily overeat nuts without eating less in the following 24 hours to compensate. My gf's mom is obese and always going on and on about health foods, but I've eaten dinners with her before where she eats an entire 700+ calorie salad with avocado and "health foods" before casually eating a large sandwich and a dessert. She also snacks on nuts "because they're "healthy and filling", but she eats half a container before having her lower calorie dinner. Thinking overweight people shouldn't intentionally limit their intake of calorie dense foods like nuts to some extent just because studies show that the inclusion of nuts doesn't typically lead to weight gain is insane. I'm not a tinfoil hat guy either, but I'm wary of catchy headlines like "Nuts lead to Better Sex": https://www.technologynetworks.com/a...ter-sex-322138. This study was funded by the International Nut & Dried Fruit Council. Beware of Big Nut...giggity.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Same. Also, when I needed to gain weight in eating disorder treatment, nuts were a huge part of my exceptionally high intake and I can finish off an entire jar of mixed nuts at times. Nuts may increase satiety and I have scoured the literature and there's no evidence they lead to weight gain (much to the contrary), but that being said, I've still heard countless stories of people gaining weight by adding nuts to their diets because they don't realize how calorically dense they are. The same thing goes for avocados. Brb getting an avocado cheeseburger instead of a bacon one because "avocados are healthy". I think people who are extremely prone to overeating for emotional, metabolic, or genetic reasons could very easily overeat nuts without eating less in the following 24 hours to compensate.
    I think it also depends on the rest of someone’s diet as well.

    If you’re eating tons of refined things and then simply add in nuts, I don’t think its as likely to prevent overeating than if you simply look at averages across populations and see that more nuts tend to be correlated with less overall energy intake or obesity.

    I mean someone following a Standard American diet would probably not be helped much if they were told to replace their cheese on their burger with ad libitum amounts of nuts. I think a more prismatic picture of the total diet has to be taken into account.

    But yeah, at the moment I’m eating 1-2 servings of nut butter a day as one of the easy ways to fast-track myself up to a point where my bloodwork is fully restored, etc, after which time I’ll probably do things without purposefully over feeding like I am now. But until then, 2-3 tablespoons of PB or almond butter on my oats is definitely some easy delicious calories.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    I mean someone following a Standard American diet would probably not be helped much if they were told to replace their cheese on their burger with ad libitum amounts of nuts. I think a more prismatic picture of the total diet has to be taken into account.

    But yeah, at the moment I’m eating 1-2 servings of nut butter a day as one of the easy ways to fast-track myself up to a point where my bloodwork is fully restored, etc, after which time I’ll probably do things without purposefully over feeding like I am now. But until then, 2-3 tablespoons of PB or almond butter on my oats is definitely some easy delicious calories.
    True, ig it's just hard for me to picture someone with a typical Western diet ACTUALLY replacing their cals form other fat sources with nuts. Also, you'd give up a couple servings of nut butter per day just cuz you have normal bloodwork?! Heresy! I wouldn't wanna live without a couple servings of pb/almond butter in my oats each day. HNNNG!
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    True, ig it's just hard for me to picture someone with a typical Western diet ACTUALLY replacing their cals form other fat sources with nuts. Also, you'd give up a couple servings of nut butter per day just cuz you have normal bloodwork?! Heresy! I wouldn't wanna live without a couple servings of pb/almond butter in my oats. HNNNG!

    Naw naw, not what I meant.

    What I mean is right now the nut butter is a means of easily getting in cals in addition to other things I’m eating without making me noticeably fuller. So once I’m at a better place physically i won’t have to intentionally over feed some of the other items... for example fear foods which I’m working to break the compulsion to avoid.

    I never have to force peanut butter or almond butter... I’m going through like a jar and half a week. It’s here to stay!
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Naw naw, not what I meant.

    What I mean is right now the nut butter is a means of easily getting in cals in addition to other things I’m eating without making me noticeably fuller. So once I’m at a better place physically i won’t have to intentionally over feed some of the other items... for example fear foods which I’m working to break the compulsion to avoid.

    I never have to force peanut butter or almond butter... I’m going through like a jar and half a week. It’s here to stay!
    Ahhh I got you. Nut butters are the goat. Forcing "fear foods" was honestly one of my least favorite parts of recovery. I truly prefer eating "healthier", and I suspect you're the same
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Ahhh I got you. Nut butters are the goat. Forcing "fear foods" was honestly one of my least favorite parts of recovery. I truly prefer eating "healthier", and I suspect you're the same
    Absolutely, and actually I’m getting to the point where I really don’t fear almost any food, so I’m looking forward to not having to do these exposure methods where I sometimes eat things I don’t even want simply to condition my brain to understand they’re not ‘off limits’.

    On a normal day the only things I really enjoy now which are probably considered unhealthy would be ice cream and cereal... or things like blueberry muffins or cookies. However, I no longer crave them like I did 3 months ago... I can have one cookie and be totally content and go days without even thinking about it.

    When a random craving pops up I would go for it, but it’s not daily.

    I mean every morning I look forward to my massive protein oatmeal bowl, which is still very calorie dense, but I honestly prefer eating a 800+ calorie bowl of oats, nut butter, berries/banana, protein powder, and granola over having 3 donuts.... I just find the experience of eating it way more fulfilling.

    Similarly I’d rather have a glazed salmon filet with sweet potato fries than a thickly breaded fish patty on a white bun, etc. but that’s where things like avocado, feta cheese, things like that come in to fill in the calories, just using ‘healthier’ means.
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Are you actually suggesting that it's nearly impossible to overeat whole foods?
    Adam was suggesting that for the general population (as used in the study) in ad libitum situation it would be easy to overeat on nuts and avocados. I thought it was worth pointing out that the scientific data suggests that people who eat more nuts are less likely to be overweight and avocados suppress hunger.

    And I know people can lose weight on a Twinkie diet and gain weight on minimally processed foods. Just far less likely, especially in the normal world where people don't track calories.

    People who are obese rarely became that way from eating a diet of minimally processed foods like nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat. Actually I'd be surprised if it ever happened.

    As for our own experience: we're at (very) low body fat, mostly meticulously tracking intake (, sometimes recovering from ED). Our own experience is probably not that relevant in that context.

    About nut butter: I think the processing it's been through may have an important effect on the satiety effects/potential to over eat. Kevin Hall mentioned how the eating speed was significantly different between the two diets in the study. The amount of chewing we have to do may play an important role in overeating.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Adam was suggesting that for the general population (as used in the study) in ad libitum situation it would be easy to overeat on nuts and avocados. I thought it was worth pointing out that the scientific data suggests that people who eat more nuts are less likely to be overweight and avocados suppress hunger.

    And I know people can lose weight on a Twinkie diet and gain weight on minimally processed foods. Just far less likely, especially in the normal world where people don't track calories.

    People who are obese rarely became that way from eating a diet of minimally processed foods like nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat. Actually I'd be surprised if it ever happened.

    As for our own experience: we're at (very) low body fat, mostly meticulously tracking intake (, sometimes recovering from ED). Our own experience is probably not that relevant in that context.

    About nut butter: I think the processing it's been through may have an important effect on the satiety effects/potential to over eat. Kevin Hall mentioned how the eating speed was significantly different between the two diets in the study. The amount of chewing we have to do may play an important role in overeating.
    My main takeaway is that although whole and unprocessed sources of fat and carbs are almost certainly not the cause of someone becoming over fat or obese, they also are unlikely to ‘fix’ those situations on their own... it has to be a comprehensive lifestyle change in almost all cases.

    If someone is overeating by 500 calories every day for 10 years, then replacing a snickers with 1.5 servings of sunflower seeds is unlikely to cause a change. However, add in more activity, fiber, veggies, fruits, whole grains, take out liquid calories and alcohol... now we have a good base to work with.

    Some level of cognizance and change beyond simply moving from ‘processed’ to ‘whole’ should happen... such as a minimum veggie and fiber amount, etc.
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    I mean at the end of the day all its all calories it seems rather convenient that cutting out all the processed foods happens to knock out most the high calorie foods people are likely to binge on. I don't think nuts are the best cutting food for someone not counting calories. If people who are eating nuts are eating less I would guess it has to do more with them being a health conscious person in the first place. In that they are choosing nuts over potato chips and watching there weight so to me a fair comparison for our purposes would be to the other health conscious person choosing a low calorie dense food with the same goal say rice cakes. Anecdotally there are times I feel more satisfied from a single fast food cheeseburger(the big kind) than an equal amount of healthy food with more volume say 10+ oz of chicken a bag of veggies a banana and some nuts. Now my theory is that sometimes I just want something in particular and its best to just go eat it because if I try and eat "healthy food" instead I'll just end up either eating both anyway or eating the "healthy food" until I'm so full I could vomit and never feel satisfied . I am pretty much convinced this is purely mental but its good to know myself. However access to food is also important so if its lunchtime and I choose the seemingly less sating salad and chili instead of burger and fries sure I'll be more hungry but I'm back in the office soon and I have no option to then go binge so its best to choose the low calorie option this time of day for me. If its night and I'm free for the day I find it best to give into the craving to prevent the now much more accessible binge.

    Im kind of surprised by the ever part of this from you that seems quite extreme. "People who are obese rarely became that way from eating a diet of minimally processed foods like nuts, avocados, eggs, fatty meat. Actually I'd be surprised if it ever happened."

    I'm pretty sure obese people existed before processed food did even if there were less of them and that is with most people not even having the money to make this even a possibility back then. Also now a days there lots of other obvious problems that whole food wont fix and plenty of access to food even if it naturally lowers there calorie intake its not going to drop it enough. IE you take someone who does nothing but smoke pot and play xbox all day and give make them eat only all whole foods and I'm willing to bet they stay obese as the lifestyle is obviously the problem. Now maybe this person goes from 400 to 300 pounds across a long time span but the core problem is never really addressed and they stay obese. Note concession here however has nothing to do with the food being nutrient dense but instead because there are simply less binge-ably tasty calorie dense foods to choose from.

    Now here is an interesting thought as someone who binge eats at night I could see an ONLY whole foods approach working for me. In fact I have seen it in action to some extent. If I have ZERO binge prone foods in my pantry IE if I remove the chocolate pop-tarts and the potato chips cookies sugar cereal etc I will frequently go to my pantry at my "binge time" and choose to eat nothing finding these foods not present. If those foods are there I will eat them. So for me at least on a micro level not having them around is not just the difference between a healthy choice and a calorie dense poor one but even eating at all. I think ease also factors in for me at least if it requires cooking I'm less likely to eat at all since I'm lazy and just want to grab and eat when i enter what ill call "binge mode" . I have never binged on any food that requires preparation. This is part of why I think nuts are not the best to have around as they almost fall into this same category for me with chips and candy etc. However depending on the kind of nuts i have found some to be ok for me. in that they are just non tasty enough for me to maybe abstain, however if I do pick the jar up there is a chance we get a similar and sometimes even worse binge. I have found personally I can handle having dry roasted peanuts around but I cannot control myself around cashews for whatever reason. So maybe there is a magical nutrient based difference between peanuts and cashews but I'm pretty sure the problem for me I simply like the taste of cashews too much.

    All that being said I don't think I was EVER hungry when I was getting huge I ate because things tasted good and I liked it. I ate when I wanted too and it had little to nothing to do with hunger. I guzzled more than 1000 liquid calories in coke a day. Its only now when I'm actively cutting that I even had to worry about hunger. At 31 years old now I can honestly say I never really felt truly hungry in the first 29 years of my life. However now in trying to have a successful cut I have figured out my own personal hunger quite well and the more I understand it the better I am at fighting it off. Tell you what though I don't think the key is eating whole foods or any such voodoo in my experience they key is wanting it and constantly getting back on the horse when you do veer off course. While it is nice to know what controls hunger hormones to use as a tool in the toolbox at the end of the day its still just mind over matter one way or the other.
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