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  1. #31
    Registered User BFast55's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by semitope View Post
    luckily the plan is not to take all that money and b urn it up in a furnace. Looks like economic stimulus to me. Better than trillions in tax cuts for the rich anyway.
    When a statement is so astonishingly misinformed that it is a minor miracle.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by BFast55 View Post
    When a statement is so astonishingly misinformed that it is a minor miracle.
    He's either a paid shill or a troll that just takes a contrarian position on everything no matter how stupid. I mean look at his avi on a bodybuilding website.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Sakeoe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    I've read all of that. Again, the math is nonpartisan. Look at the BP energy report and sum the geometric series. I am saying at current rates, based on the amount of reserves we know about, we only have 34 years of oil left. This is simple to calculate. Hubbert Peak Oil theory suggests that we would eventually decline our oil production at some point. When that happens, we will see a huge economic decline because energy is required for the production of everything in our economy. If there is no decline, we run out in 34 years. If there is a decline, we see it within 34 years. That decline will hurt us. We might be able to buy ourselves some time by discovering more usable reserves, but this is very unlikely. There are diminishing returns on innovations in petroleum engineering and discovery of new reserves. These only buy you a little time too.

    Again, you can take the word of some Forbes article poster or you can look at the math. At current rates and with current reserves, there simply isn't much left. Your optimism that technology will magically keep discovering more reserves and somehow prevent the rates from falling is nuts. Either they fall or they don't. If they don't, we run out sooner. If they do, we face a severe economic decline. The best decision we can make NOW is to allocate funds to research other sources of energy so that when there is an oil production decline, we will find a new source of energy to replace it with so that we don't see a huge economic decline. Most countries have been trying to reduce their oil production growth, but it is still too high. If it isn't negative, we ultimately have a problem. Any positive growth rate presents an exhaustion issue
    Looks like you didn't read the article since :Many predictions fall short because they too simplistically center on reserve years or the proved recoverable reserves divided by the annual consumption rate.

    which is literally what you're doing. From the 70s and 80s based on the amount of reserves we've been calculated at 40-50 years consistently. Yet here we are in 2020 and it's still at 40-50 years of reserves yet.
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by Sakeoe View Post
    Looks like you didn't read the article since :Many predictions fall short because they too simplistically center on reserve years or the proved recoverable reserves divided by the annual consumption rate.

    which is literally what you're doing. From the 70s and 80s based on the amount of reserves we've been calculated at 40-50 years consistently. Yet here we are in 2020 and it's still at 40-50 years of reserves yet.
    Maybe you didn't read the part where I already was very generous about if we would find additional reserves. READ.

    Suppose you get a bit lucky and discover new ways of getting more access to oil, upping the reserves to T=2.5 trillion barrels. That only gets you to 51 years, and that would be a remarkable discovery of increasing the available oil reserves by 44.5%. Think about that. This oil resource exhaustion issue IS an issue our generation will face in old age, and it is definitely one your children will face.
    "Hurr durr I drank half the juice and in the past I refilled it so therefore there must always be juice." Fking what do you think? That new reserves will just keep coming out of someone's asshoel? We'll just keep getting lucky? Is that what you think?
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  5. #35
    Registered User Sakeoe's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Maybe you didn't read the part where I already was very generous about if we would find additional reserves. READ.



    "Hurr durr I drank half the juice and in the past I refilled it so therefore there must always be juice." Fking what do you think? That new reserves will just keep coming out of someone's asshoel? We'll just keep getting lucky? Is that what you think?
    Yes, cause that is how it works.

    Just 2 months ago for example
    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/10/b...ntl/index.html
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by Sakeoe View Post
    Yes, cause that is how it works.

    Just 2 months ago for example
    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/10/b...ntl/index.html
    53 billion wow...that would buy the world less than 1 year of oil in a few years. And that isn't even all proven reserves. I already said that even if we increase our reserves by 45%, we are still fuked. Think about that.

    Do the math urself.
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  7. #37
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    More evidence that the climate alarmists want one thing, control. The entire effort is to cripple western economies, siphon as much of their wealth out and into a few elites ahdns as possible, and usher in a heavy handed govt that will ration every individuals lives doen to the minute "for the greater good".

    I will continue to oppose the climate alarmists loudly and openly, we must all continue to fight them and try to wake people up before they do something that is irreversible srs.
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  8. #38
    Registered User WrestlingFan123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Nuclear fission is good in the short term, but not viable as a total replacement. The risk of catastrophe increases dramatically as well. There is also the issue of waste.
    Stop watching Chernobyl, the US Navy operates ~95 nuclear reactors at the moment without incident for nearly a century. 4th Gen Integral Reactors use their own byproducts in the subsequent burn cycle reducing the need to store ANY waste.
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  9. #39
    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WrestlingFan123 View Post
    Stop watching Chernobyl, the US Navy operates ~95 nuclear reactors at the moment without incident for nearly a century. 4th Gen Integral Reactors use their own byproducts in the subsequent burn cycle reducing the need to store ANY waste.
    I'm not basing this on some tv show tard. Wow I didn't know nuclear reactors could violate the laws of thermodynamics. Gee whiz! There is always waste, you autist. And 95 is a far cry for the 20,000 or so that would be around if we fully tried to replace fossil fuels. People less retarded have looked at the risks. Go read what the Union of Concerned Scientists and Bulletin of Atomic Scientists have to say about 4th gen reactors. They are good reactors, sure, and it is a step in the right direction. But this "no waste" chit is bs and you know it so stop spreading bs. Nuclear waste is not a joke.
    Last edited by wincel; 01-02-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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  10. #40
    Registered User WrestlingFan123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    I'm not basing this on some tv show tard. Wow I didn't know nuclear reactors could violate the laws of thermodynamics. Gee whiz! There is always waste, you autist. And 95 is a far cry for the 20,000 or so that would be around if we fully tried to replace fossil fuels. People less retarded have looked at the risks. Go read what the Union of Concerned Scientists and Bulletin of Atomic Scientists have to say about 4th gen reactors. They are good reactors, sure, and it is a step in the right direction. But this "no waste" chit is bs and you know it so stop spreading bs. Nuclear waste is not a joke.
    lol too bad you aren't one of those 'less retarded' people you reference in your strawman filled diatribe. The entire premise of my post was that to install a true 'Green New Deal' nuclear power is needed both to phase out fossil fuel usage as well as provide a stable backup for the energy grid that would be run on renewables.
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  11. #41
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    Im all for switching energy sources

    Rather not walk down my street and inhale pollution all day
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by WrestlingFan123 View Post
    There can be no 'Green New Deal' without heavy investment and building of nuclear power plants. Yang seems to be the only candidate that understands this fact.
    The sad part is Germany used to have a ton of nuclear, but they got rid of it for "renewable."
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    I'm not basing this on some tv show tard. Wow I didn't know nuclear reactors could violate the laws of thermodynamics. Gee whiz! There is always waste, you autist. And 95 is a far cry for the 20,000 or so that would be around if we fully tried to replace fossil fuels. People less retarded have looked at the risks. Go read what the Union of Concerned Scientists and Bulletin of Atomic Scientists have to say about 4th gen reactors. They are good reactors, sure, and it is a step in the right direction. But this "no waste" chit is bs and you know it so stop spreading bs. Nuclear waste is not a joke.
    Originally Posted by WrestlingFan123 View Post
    lol too bad you aren't one of those 'less retarded' people you reference in your strawman filled diatribe. The entire premise of my post was that to install a true 'Green New Deal' nuclear power is needed both to phase out fossil fuel usage as well as provide a stable backup for the energy grid that would be run on renewables.
    lol both of you are literally correct, stop arguing
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by WrestlingFan123 View Post
    lol too bad you aren't one of those 'less retarded' people you reference in your strawman filled diatribe. The entire premise of my post was that to install a true 'Green New Deal' nuclear power is needed both to phase out fossil fuel usage as well as provide a stable backup for the energy grid that would be run on renewables.
    Originally Posted by Dan_S View Post
    The sad part is Germany used to have a ton of nuclear, but they got rid of it for "renewable."
    Germany ditched a lot of nuclear just after Fukushima and even brought coal back on line.

    Backup for renewables will end up being lots of pump storage, in countries where practical. You have two dams at different heights and you use spare electricity to pump the water up the hill and then let it back down for hydro power when you need it.

    I wrote a report years ago on the cost of renewables and the level of redundancy needed to prevent rolling blackouts if fully renewable meant electricity costs of ~7x what they are today.

    Renewables end up being a racist issue (this is where you get to have fun with it), in that when electricity prices go up, due to higher levels of "green" energy, minorities are disproportionately affected. So all the white middle class libs screaming about climate change, want to make black people poorer.

    Bad white libs, bad.
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    Interesting article on the problems with nuclear energy

    https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclea...ld-energy.html
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    Germany ditched a lot of nuclear just after Fukushima and even brought coal back on line.

    Backup for renewables will end up being lots of pump storage, in countries where practical. You have two dams at different heights and you use spare electricity to pump the water up the hill and then let it back down for hydro power when you need it.

    I wrote a report years ago on the cost of renewables and the level of redundancy needed to prevent rolling blackouts if fully renewable meant electricity costs of ~7x what they are today.

    Renewables end up being a racist issue (this is where you get to have fun with it), in that when electricity prices go up, due to higher levels of "green" energy, minorities are disproportionately affected. So all the white middle class libs screaming about climate change, want to make black people poorer.

    Bad white libs, bad.
    ya that chit was dumb af...there's been a lot of unwarranted panic over fukushima, but that being said, there IS a real capacity for disasters. The more nuclear reactors we build, the worse things can get.
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    Originally Posted by gregxy View Post
    Interesting article on the problems with nuclear energy

    https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclea...ld-energy.html
    Some of this is a tad out of date, but yea the essentials of that still hold today.
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    Germany ditched a lot of nuclear just after Fukushima and even brought coal back on line.

    Backup for renewables will end up being lots of pump storage, in countries where practical. You have two dams at different heights and you use spare electricity to pump the water up the hill and then let it back down for hydro power when you need it.

    I wrote a report years ago on the cost of renewables and the level of redundancy needed to prevent rolling blackouts if fully renewable meant electricity costs of ~7x what they are today.

    Renewables end up being a racist issue (this is where you get to have fun with it), in that when electricity prices go up, due to higher levels of "green" energy, minorities are disproportionately affected. So all the white middle class libs screaming about climate change, want to make black people poorer.

    Bad white libs, bad.
    Have any sources for this dual-dam system? I find it extremely hard to believe that it would be net positive in energy generation.
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    Originally Posted by rise21 View Post
    Have any sources for this dual-dam system? I find it extremely hard to believe that it would be net positive in energy generation.
    It isn't net positive.

    The amount of power generated and consumed varies throughout the day. When you are generating more than you are consuming, you pump the water up the hill and when you are using more than you are generating, you let it back down the hill, to generate electricity. You can just google pumped storage if you want sources, it has been used commercially for over 50 years.

    Any method of electricity storage is highly expensive and wasteful, so you pick the least worse option. As supply and demand vary, electricity providers will do all sorts of things, including slightly altering the frequency of the AC supplied. To get a turbine up to speed takes about four hours, so they cannot quickly respond and needs sources of extra peak production. Atm, they literally turn on diesel generators when it gets too tight.
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    It isn't net positive.

    The amount of power generated and consumed varies throughout the day. When you are generating more than you are consuming, you pump the water up the hill and when you are using more than you are generating, you let it back down the hill, to generate electricity. You can just google pumped storage if you want sources, it has been used commercially for over 50 years.

    Any method of electricity storage is highly expensive and wasteful, so you pick the least worse option. As supply and demand vary, electricity providers will do all sorts of things, including slightly altering the frequency of the AC supplied. To get a turbine up to speed takes about four hours, so they cannot quickly respond and needs sources of extra peak production. Atm, they literally turn on diesel generators when it gets too tight.
    Interesting. You’d think it would be more efficient to regulate the power by controlling the flow of water through the dam in the first place since power consumption is relatively predictable.
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    Originally Posted by rise21 View Post
    Interesting. You’d think it would be more efficient to regulate the power by controlling the flow of water through the dam in the first place since power consumption is relatively predictable.
    You're looking at it wrong. You use the dam to store the overproduction from wind, solar, coal etc.

    During the day, a country uses more electricity than at night. You take the spare electricity produced at night and use it to pump the water up hill and then when you need it during the day, when you are near production capacity, you use that water to increase max production.

    A pump storage system is basically a huge battery that doesn't bleed charge.

    If you have lots of solar, you can use it the other way around and pump the water up hill during the day time and then let it back down at night (to generate hydro power when solar is lacking).
    Last edited by DuracellBunny; 01-02-2020 at 06:39 PM.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    How are you going to get polymers without oil? Derp. When it's gone, it's fuking gone. You'll have to manage. Humanity would have to adopt a lower tech way of living. It won't be easy or comfortable. And whether you like it or not, you will face this problem. We could see a MINOR reduction now and start heavily funding research or u can exhaust chit, wait for the decline to inevitably come anyway, have no alternative solutions in your pocket and face a much worse problem down the road. Your choice is between some chit now or dying of sepsis later. You choose.
    lmao prefect example of someone with ZERO knowledge of the subject bulchitting because he thinks hes smart and everyone else is too dumb to realize

    you don't need oil to make polymers, it just so happens that after oil is distilled for fuel, whats left can be used to make polymers and carbon-fiber, its VERY cost effective. (you prob didin't even know that most carbon fiber is made from oil lmao)

    your precious little EV's guess what, the miles of wires are....coated in polymers, the lightweight interior....polymers and not to mention the batteries.... ding ding ding polymers

    you saying we need to stop our dependence on polymers is as dumb as saying "we need to stop using metal, or ceramics, or semiconductors" completely absurd and impossible if we don't want to regress technologically, how could you be so anti-science? polymers are literally the final frontier when it comes to material science.

    the solution has to occur organically, as oil gets used up, the price goes up, and it becomes more economically viable to recycle or produce plastic by other means,
    Your solution would mean a great depression worse than the world has ever seen and for sure everyone will starve, how many scientific advancements do you think will occur under a great depression lol
    Last edited by gluon; 01-02-2020 at 06:46 PM.
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    5.2 Trillion huh? You know that's how much fossil fuel companies received in subsidies in 2017 right?
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    You're looking at it wrong. You use the dam to store the overproduction from wind, solar, coal etc.

    During the day, a country uses more electricity than at night. You take the spare electricity produced at night and use it to pump the water up hill and then when you need it during the day, when you are near production capacity, you use that water to increase max production.

    A pump storage system is basically a huge battery that doesn't bleed charge.

    If you have lots of solar, you can use it the other way around and pump the water up hill during the day time and then let it back down at night (to generate hydro power when solar is lacking).
    Ahhh now it makes a lot more sense. I was thinking of it as a single system not a combined system using different sources. Reps, also strong username to post content ratio.
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    Originally Posted by DuracellBunny View Post
    You're looking at it wrong. You use the dam to store the overproduction from wind, solar, coal etc.

    During the day, a country uses more electricity than at night. You take the spare electricity produced at night and use it to pump the water up hill and then when you need it during the day, when you are near production capacity, you use that water to increase max production.

    A pump storage system is basically a huge battery that doesn't bleed charge.

    If you have lots of solar, you can use it the other way around and pump the water up hill during the day time and then let it back down at night (to generate hydro power when solar is lacking).
    works great in some places, how many regions have enough storage dams to actually do this, less tan 10%, most that do have already exhausted this or are close to it. That's not a reasonable solution and could come no where close to supplying US or any other countries energy demands.

    Edit: probably less than 2%, I work.in grid level utilities, right now we use this and we get well under 1% and that's tapped out because there are various factors needed for this to actually work. It's a pipe dream
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    ya that chit was dumb af...there's been a lot of unwarranted panic over fukushima, but that being said, there IS a real capacity for disasters. The more nuclear reactors we build, the worse things can get.
    another thread where you have no idea what you're talking about. If Carter didn't enter into a nuclear proliferation treaty then we could simply recycle spent fuel and development of reactors would be decades ahead of wh ed re they are. France gets more than 80 percent of their energy from nuclear with no accidents and minimal potential for any, because their politicians didnt kneecap any efforts.
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    Originally Posted by dannyg1217 View Post
    another thread where you have no idea what you're talking about. If Carter didn't enter into a nuclear proliferation treaty then we could simply recycle spent fuel and development of reactors would be decades ahead of wh ed re they are. France gets more than 80 percent of their energy from nuclear with no accidents and minimal potential for any, because their politicians didnt kneecap any efforts.
    Another EE who has no idea how nuclear fuel cycles work.

    The more reactors there are, the more potential for accidents. That's how fractions work, dumbfuk.
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    Originally Posted by gluon View Post
    lmao prefect example of someone with ZERO knowledge of the subject bulchitting because he thinks hes smart and everyone else is too dumb to realize

    you don't need oil to make polymers, it just so happens that after oil is distilled for fuel, whats left can be used to make polymers and carbon-fiber, its VERY cost effective. (you prob didin't even know that most carbon fiber is made from oil lmao)

    your precious little EV's guess what, the miles of wires are....coated in polymers, the lightweight interior....polymers and not to mention the batteries.... ding ding ding polymers

    you saying we need to stop our dependence on polymers is as dumb as saying "we need to stop using metal, or ceramics, or semiconductors" completely absurd and impossible if we don't want to regress technologically, how could you be so anti-science? polymers are literally the final frontier when it comes to material science.

    the solution has to occur organically, as oil gets used up, the price goes up, and it becomes more economically viable to recycle or produce plastic by other means,
    Your solution would mean a great depression worse than the world has ever seen and for sure everyone will starve, how many scientific advancements do you think will occur under a great depression lol
    WTF are u talking about retard? I am telling you that when the oil production and consumption declines, we will see a huge depression because of all the stuff we make, including polymers, using these fossil fuels. Your "organic solution" of denial and waiting is wasting precious time at researching alternatives. The hit will come whether you like it or not It's also funny that uneducated idiots tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I made the case crystal clear for you earlier. If you don't get it, go fuk yourself.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    WTF are u talking about retard? I am telling you that when the oil production and consumption declines, we will see a huge depression because of all the stuff we make, including polymers, using these fossil fuels. Your "organic solution" of denial and waiting is wasting precious time at researching alternatives. The hit will come whether you like it or not It's also funny that uneducated idiots tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I made the case crystal clear for you earlier. If you don't get it, go fuk yourself.
    earlier you posted that you want to stop using oil right now, not because we are running out, but because you think the world is ending. You cant even keep your argument straight LMAO you lost and you're mad. check and mate son.
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    Originally Posted by gluon View Post
    earlier you posted that you want to stop using oil right now, not because we are running out, but because you think the world is ending. You cant even keep your argument straight LMAO you lost and you're mad. check and mate son.
    I said nothing of the sort. I showed you a calculation that at current rates, we will run out in under 40 years. I said we need to get off fossil fuels asap. That is obvious. Otherwise, we will continue to exhaust them. I have said we need to fund alternative sources of energy.

    I'm not even sure what you are arguing. The central premise of your argument seems to be that polymers are important. Yes. I agree. And? We are exhausting the primary source of these polymers rapidly.
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