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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by AltarOfPlagues View Post
    ...he said, with zero sense of self awareness or irony.
    Have you seen the footage of the Japanese women jumping with their kids to their death for fear of Americans? They were told that Americans were horrible and would rape/torture them by their own govt. If I had to guess you're just a lib that hates American and has no understanding of History and would rather just rage at American greatness.
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  2. #62
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    You people think you're tough because you're sitting here in the US behind your computer screens casually talking about using nuclear weapons against other nations. You people cried when some terrorists killed 3000 of ours by ramming planes into buildings. You have zero clue what sort of horror exists in a nuclear attack. You don't understand the physical reality of what it means. Millions would be instantly dead if nuclear weapons were used today.

    Originally Posted by IAMBEE View Post
    Have you seen the footage of the Japanese women jumping with their kids to their death for fear of Americans? They were told that Americans were horrible and would rape/torture them by their own govt. If I had to guess you're just a lib that hates American and has no understanding of History and would rather just rage at American greatness.
    That is not greatness. And perhaps they were right to be afraid.
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  3. #63
    Essential Employee Gang AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IAMBEE View Post
    Have you seen the footage of the Japanese women jumping with their kids to their death for fear of Americans? They were told that Americans were horrible and would rape/torture them by their own govt. If I had to guess you're just a lib that hates American and has no understanding of History and would rather just rage at American greatness.
    you have me completely wrong, i love american [sic] and everything we do and it's impossible for us to do wrong. every noncombantant death and dismemberment can and should be rationalized by whatever end it produces.

    i think nationalism should come before any considerations of moral righteousness, because im from a generation of moral relativists. basically im a fukkin idiot without a moral compass so i defer to my social group to tell me whats right and wrong about the world. im unable to formulate my own opinions.
    mind the business that pay me in 2020
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  4. #64
    Registered User fishnbrah's Avatar
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    should go drop another one just so they know were not sorry.
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  5. #65
    Registered User IAMBEE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AltarOfPlagues View Post
    you have me completely wrong, i love american [sic] and everything we do and it's impossible for us to do wrong. every noncombantant death and dismemberment can and should be rationalized by whatever end it produces.

    i think nationalism should come before any considerations of moral righteousness, because im from a generation of moral relativists. basically im a fukkin idiot without a moral compass so i defer to my social group to tell me whats right and wrong about the world. im unable to formulate my own opinions.
    Sure an entire population thats cultural belief is that surrender is never an option, every man woman and child should fight for the emperor, and every combatant should be killed no matter what was just going to hand the keys over to the USA once our ships arrived.
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    A conditional surrender, which is what the US military generals, intelligence, and allies all wanted to do and Japan was fully willing to do.
    Were they willing to give up all of their conquests and be occupied by foreign troops?
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  7. #67
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    ITT a bunch idiots who didn’t bother to fact check an Oliver Stone documentary
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  8. #68
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    We could have nuked near Japan, announcing it to the Japanese military and demonstrating that we could kill their people with no issue. They would have surrendered. Zero casualties. There was no need for any loss of life. The makers of the atomic bomb were told it would only be used as a last resort if the US were invaded. That was not the case. What was done was yet another immoral crime against humanity. There were plenty to go around in WW2, but let's not whitewash it and call it anything other than what it was.
    They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped.
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  9. #69
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    Originally Posted by IAMBEE View Post
    Sure an entire population thats cultural belief is that surrender is never an option, every man woman and child should fight for the emperor, and every combatant should be killed no matter what was just going to hand the keys over to the USA once our ships arrived.
    We didn't need their keys. We needed a guarantee they would no longer attempt to attack us. The threat of nuclear retaliation and forcible disarmament would have sufficed. Demonstrations of the firepower would have been enough. We did not need to kill those people. It was wrong.

    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    They didn't surrender after the first one was dropped.
    So drop another. We didn't need to kill anyone. And like I said, the Russian navy was coming. Japan had no choice but to surrender. The hypothesis that they would never surrender is falsified. They surrendered.
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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by DubSilky View Post
    ITT a bunch idiots who didn’t bother to fact check an Oliver Stone documentary
    I actually watched that ****, it was nothing more than, "US bad during the Cold War."
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  11. #71
    Registered User IAMBEE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    We didn't need their keys. We needed a guarantee they would no longer attempt to attack us. The threat of nuclear retaliation and forcible disarmament would have sufficed. Demonstrations of the firepower would have been enough. We did not need to kill those people. It was wrong.
    Then how come on August 7th the emperor didn't pick up the phone?
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  12. #72
    Registered User IAMBEE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    It is a well known racial slur.
    To who the SJW? That doesn't count SJW aren't even people
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  13. #73
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    Originally Posted by IAMBEE View Post
    Then how come on August 7th the emperor didn't pick up the phone?
    Because they had just learned the technology even existed, and there wasn't a full understanding of what had even happened yet. Can you imagine the shock of an entire city just going dark and laid to ruin? It took us a while to gather our senses from 9/11. How could you have expected the Japanese to respond immediately? Fuk off.

    If the Japanese were incapable of surrender, why did they surrender? Derp.
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  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    I actually watched that ****, it was nothing more than, "US bad during the Cold War."
    Yeah. Wincel is basically plagiarizing the WW2 section word for word ITT.
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  15. #75
    Registered User IAMBEE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Because they had just learned the technology even existed, and there wasn't a full understanding of what had even happened yet. Can you imagine the shock of an entire city just going dark and laid to ruin? It took us a while to gather our senses from 9/11. How could you have expected the Japanese to respond immediately? Fuk off.
    We were running broadcasts on the radio every 15 mins in Japan saying what happened and that it would happen again if surrender didn't happen. Considering its war it was actually very merciful for the US to give Japan a warning and several days before the next bomb followed. If we were really out for blood more than 1 nuke would have dropped the first day.

    Japan had their own nuke program as well, everyone did and anyone else would have used them. Thankfully the USA built them first.
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  16. #76
    Essential Employee Gang AltarOfPlagues's Avatar
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    its hard to play tuesday mornin cornerback but suffice it to say that the manny projy and fat man and little boy ultimately led to the production and proliferation of tens of thousands of nuclear weapons all over the planet, and right now to this day, you have to imagine this being THE single biggest threat to the human species.

    one has to wonder if all proper measures were taken to prevent the situation in which we now find ourselves, 20th century mass women and children deaths (sure) notwithstanding. it could be that all possible futures starting from manhattan lead to this present or one like it, but maybe not.
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  17. #77
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    Japan surrendered as a result of Russia declaring war on them and the fear of imminent invasion from Russia.

    The nuclear weapons we used were a show of force to Russia.
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  18. #78
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    Originally Posted by DubSilky View Post
    Yeah. Wincel is basically plagiarizing the WW2 section word for word ITT.
    Where? WTF are u talking about? I am arguing there was no need to kill anyone. Several demonstrations of the bomb's existence would have been enough. Also, I have never seen this Oliver Stone documentary. I'm going by what I learned in school. Russia had declared war on Japan and was moving its navy at the same time as the attacks happened. Japan had zero chance. They had to surrender. They would have surrendered anyway.
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    Originally Posted by keyboardworkout View Post
    Japan surrendered as a result of Russia declaring war on them and the fear of imminent invasion from Russia.

    The nuclear weapons we used were a show of force to Russia.
    end of story
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    Not to get in between the "sides" arguing in here... but maybe to provide some historical prospective...

    Russia had already agreed to war against Japan in November of 1943 (once Germany was defeated). Then in February 1945, Russia agreed to enter into the war against Japan within three months after the war in Europe ended. In July 1945, the Potsdam Declaration was made... Japan better surrender or complete destruction.

    So, Russia invaded exactly three months after the European war ended. Japan knew all of this and the war tide was against them for some time.... and yet did not surrender. Atomic bomb on August 6: no surrender. Russia informs of pending invation August 8: no surrender.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Where? WTF are u talking about? I am arguing there was no need to kill anyone. Several demonstrations of the bomb's existence would have been enough. Also, I have never seen this Oliver Stone documentary. I'm going by what I learned in school. Russia had declared war on Japan and was moving its navy at the same time as the attacks happened. Japan had zero chance. They had to surrender. They would have surrendered anyway.
    Didn’t know you went to school in Russia
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    They would have surrendered. There was no chance of them winning. We didn't need to actually use the bombs on anyone.
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    Some interesting opinions...... anyways...

    1. ww2 was *total* war -TOTAL WAR - The line between innocent civilians and military was near non-existent. Everyone is fair game and considered part of contributing to the war engine. Its a very difficult idea to grasp today because we live in a relatively safe world that has not been exposed to atrocities directly. It was a time were you would stop miscing, stop banging HBBs and you would happily work for your government for 16 hour days for free because it was life and death for you and your family.
    2. Japan did surrender multiple times, just not unconditionally. Japan just wanted their god emperor alive. US didnt want any conditions. Fact: US let the emperor live anyway. So it was purely political to refuse to listen to their surrender conditions.
    3. Russia wanted to help negotiate, which was basically a land grab.
    4. More people died from carpet bombings than the nukes.
    5. Nukes were symbollic force of power. Its like bringing a gun to a knife fight. Everyone behaved afterwards and the war ended immediately (granted it was winding down but Russia was on its way)
    6. Its very very difficult to judge people 80 years ago who lived in a time were children dying was the norm. The chit happened and theres no way to find out if it was better or not. You can argue it saved lives and you can argue it didnt (considering Russia and a possible new confrontation)

    My conclusion. War is fooked. Humans are evil, some more than others. Its not black and white and there was no real good guys. history is written by the victors.
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  25. #85
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PowerOfTruth View Post
    Not to get in between the "sides" arguing in here... but maybe to provide some historical prospective...

    Russia had already agreed to war against Japan in November of 1943 (once Germany was defeated). Then in February 1945, Russia agreed to enter into the war against Japan within three months after the war in Europe ended. In July 1945, the Potsdam Declaration was made... Japan better surrender or complete destruction.

    So, Russia invaded exactly three months after the European war ended. Japan knew all of this and the war tide was against them for some time.... and yet did not surrender. Atomic bomb on August 6: no surrender. Russia invades August 8: no surrender.
    They were open to conditional surrender. They obviously weren't going to happily allow occupation of their Pacific islands, or removal of the Emperor and hanging him for war crimes.

    The actual ranking members of the US military had known this for a while and thought that was the route that needed to be taken - a negotiation of conditional surrender, like Japan had already been trying to do through Moscow. Churchill had also advised the US to negotiate a conditional surrender to avoid any need for bloodshed.

    Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

    The commanding general of the US Army Air Forces, Henry “Hap” Arnold, gave a strong indication of his views in a public statement only eleven days after Hiroshima was attacked. Asked on August 17 by a New York Times reporter whether the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender, Arnold said that “the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.”

    “It was a mistake.... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it.” —Adm. William “Bull” Halsey

    Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings that “the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…” Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946 that “the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…”

    Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, for his part, stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Even the famous “hawk” Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”
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  26. #86
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    Originally Posted by PowerOfTruth View Post
    Not to get in between the "sides" arguing in here... but maybe to provide some historical prospective...

    Russia had already agreed to war against Japan in November of 1943 (once Germany was defeated). Then in February 1945, Russia agreed to enter into the war against Japan within three months after the war in Europe ended. In July 1945, the Potsdam Declaration was made... Japan better surrender or complete destruction.

    So, Russia invaded exactly three months after the European war ended. Japan knew all of this and the war tide was against them for some time.... and yet did not surrender. Atomic bomb on August 6: no surrender. Russia invades August 8: no surrender.
    Hiroshima was nuked on 8/6/1945 and Nagasaki was nuked on 8/9/1945.

    Russia invaded Manchuria with 1,500,000 troops on 8/9/1945.

    Hirohito announces Japan's surrender on 8/15/1945
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  27. #87
    Banned wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aal04 View Post
    Some interesting opinions...... anyways...

    1. ww2 was *total* war -TOTAL WAR - The line between innocent civilians and military was near non-existent. Everyone is fair game and considered part of contributing to the war engine. Its a very difficult idea to grasp today because we live in a relatively safe world that has not been exposed to atrocities directly. It was a time were you would stop miscing, stop banging HBBs and you would happily work for your government for 16 hour days for free because it was life and death for you and your family.
    2. Japan did surrender multiple times, just not unconditionally. Japan just wanted their god emperor alive. US didnt want any conditions. Fact: US let the emperor live anyway. So it was purely political to refuse to listen to their surrender conditions.
    3. Russia wanted to help negotiate, which was basically a land grab.
    4. More people died from carpet bombings than the nukes.
    5. Nukes were symbollic force of power. Its like bringing a gun to a knife fight. Everyone behaved afterwards and the war ended immediately (granted it was winding down but Russia was on its way)
    6. Its very very difficult to judge people 80 years ago who lived in a time were children dying was the norm. The chit happened and theres no way to find out if it was better or not. You can argue it saved lives and you can argue it didnt (considering Russia and a possible new confrontation)

    My conclusion. War is fooked. Humans are evil, some more than others. Its not black and white and there was no real good guys. history is written by the victors.
    Right, and in order to avoid that kind of war ever happening again, we formed this thing called the UN along with these notions of war crimes, international law, etc. These notions have been largely ignored by Americans lately, and that is extremely dangerous. The usage of nukes against people is heinous because of what it might lead to...you are correct that more died in normal bombings. War is fooked, and that is why we should take steps to prevent it from happening again. We must learn from the lessons of the past. The Americans of today, talking about America first, America above all others, American pride, etc are sounding a lot like the Japanese and Germans of yesterday.
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  28. #88
    Registered User xxdef1antxx's Avatar
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    Sure is a lot of moral grandstanding going on in here by people who refuse to look at the events before and after the bombings happened. Its easy to say 74 years later how horrific it was, tell that to the men who fought the japanese in the Philippines, Wake Island, and all the other islands where US troops fought savagely against the IJA and IJN.

    Should have dropped one on Moscow in 1946, could have stop the spread of communism is its tracks.
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  29. #89
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    Originally Posted by xxdef1antxx View Post
    Sure is a lot of moral grandstanding going on in here by people who refuse to look at the events before and after the bombings happened. Its easy to say 74 years later how horrific it was, tell that to the men who fought the japanese in the Philippines, Wake Island, and all the other islands where US troops fought savagely against the IJA and IJN.

    Should have dropped one on Moscow in 1946, could have stop the spread of communism is its tracks.
    Maybe they should drop one on Buffalo, New York. See how you feel about it then. It's fair game, right?

    It's a tragedy that there is so much variation in human intelligence. Species sophisticated enough to manipulate the nature of matter should not ever need to worry about war anymore.
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  30. #90
    Registered User xxdef1antxx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Maybe they should drop one on Buffalo, New York. See how you feel about it then. It's fair game, right?
    It's funny because Buffalo was on the Soviets list of targets during the Cold War. In a nuclear exchange any target is on the table. That's war kiddo.

    Its a good thing our military leaders dont make decisions based solely on feels.
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