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  1. #61
    IDDQD Austanian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BHall1991 View Post
    Do we really have to do this again. Please research what a VAT is. You have made the incorrect assumption that's it's the same as income tax again...

    How could someone making 60k a year spend 120k on purchases... That's not even factoring in how the VAT would be implemented.
    Almost like you can't read....

    VAT is NOT INCOME TAX nor have I ever said it was.

    A program with deficit as large as UBI WILL NOT and CAN NOT be implemented.

    THE ONLY WAY... I repeat ONLY WAY. This would ever be passed is if the 12k is ALSO taxed as income ON TOP of the VAT. By taxing the 12k at the marginal income tax rate and then throwing in the VAT tax after the fact it pushes breakeven down to 60-70k depending on state.

    I AM WELL AWARE YANGS PLAN CURRENTLY DOESN'T CALL FOR IT TO BE TAXED AS INCOME, but there are economic realities to deal with and the VAT by itself does not pay for it.

    I have done the math for you repeatedly, but given that you are unable to comprehend it is obvious that doing so again would be a waste.

    Originally Posted by BHall1991 View Post
    When you cant provide counterpoints just resort to ad hominems.

    What I stated there is pretty obvious to anyone over 100 IQ.
    So what do we do for people like you with an IQ of 85?

    He would have better luck explaining it to a pigeon.
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  2. #62
    Registered User VegasLifter26's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BHall1991 View Post
    Money has been fiat for decades. In 2008 The Fed literally bailed out the banks for 4.1 Trillion, the start of a 16.4 Trillion dollar plan, without batting an eye. Right now they're propping up Wallstreet with 690 billion a month. If we actually gave that money to our people it would grow the consumer economy and overall economy far more than giving it to Banks and Wallstreet.
    kinda like Obamas stimulus package? oh wait that didnt do anything

    just giving people money doesnt stimulate the economy. De-regulating, reducing taxes, and giving people incentives to start and grow businesses is what does
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by BHall1991 View Post
    When you cant provide counterpoints just resort to ad hominems.

    What I stated there is pretty obvious to anyone over 100 IQ.
    Shut up retard.
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  4. #64
    Registered User BHall1991's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by VegasLifter26 View Post
    kinda like Obamas stimulus package? oh wait that didnt do anything

    just giving people money doesnt stimulate the economy. De-regulating, reducing taxes, and giving people incentives to start and grow businesses is what does
    Didnt do anything.. were going on a 10 year bull run. UBI would be a tax rebate for a large percentage of people and would be an incentive to start and grow businesses.. every consumer now has 12k more buying power.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by Austanian View Post
    Almost like you can't read....

    VAT is NOT INCOME TAX nor have I ever said it was.

    A program with deficit as large as UBI WILL NOT and CAN NOT be implemented.

    THE ONLY WAY... I repeat ONLY WAY. This would ever be passed is if the 12k is ALSO taxed as income ON TOP of the VAT. By taxing the 12k at the marginal income tax rate and then throwing in the VAT tax after the fact it pushes breakeven down to 60-70k depending on state.

    I AM WELL AWARE YANGS PLAN CURRENTLY DOESN'T CALL FOR IT TO BE TAXED AS INCOME, but there are economic realities to deal with and the VAT by itself does not pay for it.

    I have done the math for you repeatedly, but given that you are unable to comprehend it is obvious that doing so again would be a waste.



    So what do we do for people like you with an IQ of 85?

    He would have better luck explaining it to a pigeo8n.
    So you're not talking about the actual plan...
    As mentioned numerous times in this thread the VAT doesnt pay for all of it. The remained will come from cost savings and tax revenues from jncreased economic activity.
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by Austanian View Post
    Almost like you can't read....

    VAT is NOT INCOME TAX nor have I ever said it was.

    A program with deficit as large as UBI WILL NOT and CAN NOT be implemented.

    THE ONLY WAY... I repeat ONLY WAY. This would ever be passed is if the 12k is ALSO taxed as income ON TOP of the VAT. By taxing the 12k at the marginal income tax rate and then throwing in the VAT tax after the fact it pushes breakeven down to 60-70k depending on state.

    I AM WELL AWARE YANGS PLAN CURRENTLY DOESN'T CALL FOR IT TO BE TAXED AS INCOME, but there are economic realities to deal with and the VAT by itself does not pay for it.

    I have done the math for you repeatedly, but given that you are unable to comprehend it is obvious that doing so again would be a waste.



    So what do we do for people like you with an IQ of 85?

    He would have better luck explaining it to a pigeon.
    Economists have looked at it and said the plan should be fundable. Now, their estimates may be overly optimistic, but if they were that far off, it would never have gotten past peer review.
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Economists have looked at it and said the plan should be fundable. Now, their estimates may be overly optimistic, but if they were that far off, it would never have gotten past peer review.
    who would this tax come from? How much? and nothing is "fundable" since we're running such a deficit, we already don't have enough money to cover what we're already spending. it's just digging the hole deeper with a different shovel.
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  8. #68
    Registered User Qong's Avatar
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    Dude's a joke. I've tried to question him about the automation boogeyman for some time now: how is automation going to take all of our jobs but allowing, quite literally, millions of foreigners into the country every year is fine?

    Immigration has been terrible for average folks. And it's not just terrible for American folks, it's terrible for foreign folks too. Countries around the world are drained of their best and brightest leaving the most vulnerable behind to deal with the crime and corruption that increases as a result.

    This has been happening for years, you can see it throughout history. Personal anecdote: I'm part Italian. Millions of Italians came to the US. Shortly after the mass migration of Italians Italy was taken over by literal fascists. That didn't just happen for no reason. It happened because millions of good people left the country making it vulnerable.

    The same idea applies to Mexico currently. Cartels and corruption control much of Mexico. Why? Well tens of millions of good Mexicans fleeing the country undoubtedly played a role. To think otherwise is ignorant. To think otherwise just shows how deep the propaganda goes.

    I'm ranting but the bottom line is that if automation is bad then immigration is bad too. To worry about one while virtually ignoring the other is purely for political reasons and you can't trust politicians.
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  9. #69
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Qong View Post
    Dude's a joke. I've tried to question him about the automation boogeyman for some time now: how is automation going to take all of our jobs but allowing, quite literally, millions of foreigners into the country every year is fine?

    Immigration has been terrible for average folks. And it's not just terrible for American folks, it's terrible for foreign folks too. Countries around the world are drained of their best and brightest leaving the most vulnerable behind to deal with the crime and corruption that increases as a result.

    This has been happening for years, you can see it throughout history. Personal anecdote: I'm part Italian. Millions of Italians came to the US. Shortly after the mass migration of Italians Italy was taken over by literal fascists. That didn't just happen for no reason. It happened because millions of good people left the country making it vulnerable.

    The same idea applies to Mexico currently. Cartels and corruption control much of Mexico. Why? Well tens of millions of good Mexicans fleeing the country undoubtedly played a role. To think otherwise is ignorant. To think otherwise just shows how deep the propaganda goes.

    I'm ranting but the bottom line is that if automation is bad then immigration is bad too. To worry about one while virtually ignoring the other is purely for political reasons and you can't trust politicians.
    I've already debunked your garbage about muh immigrants in another thread to which you never replied. There have been plenty of studies, meta-analyses etc. from various countries that look into immigration and its effect on wages and none of them show the effect you are describing. The most well known anti-immigration economist (George Borjas) found in his research that in the long term, there was little to no downward pressure on wages from immigration at all.

    Your only argument was "increase in the supply of labour means lower wages, duh". This is obviously retarded since it assumes no economic growth and wealth creation is possible, which is the opposite of what actually happens when more people enter a given area, hence why wages are not the same as they were in 1800 despite the global population being much much higher.

    Your wild, unsubstantiated ramblings literally have no relevance to this thread or topic.
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  10. #70
    Registered User DrumsNotDead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    I've already debunked your garbage about muh immigrants in another thread to which you never replied. There have been plenty of studies, meta-analyses etc. from various countries that look into immigration and its effect on wages and none of them show the effect you are describing. The most well known anti-immigration economist (George Borjas) found in his research that in the long term, there was little to no downward pressure on wages from immigration at all.

    Your only argument was "increase in the supply of labour means lower wages, duh". This is obviously retarded since it assumes no economic growth and wealth creation is possible, which is the opposite of what actually happens when more people enter a given area, hence why wages are not the same as they were in 1800 despite the global population being much much higher.

    Your wild, unsubstantiated ramblings literally have no relevance to this thread or topic.
    He's arguing it hurts the country they leave, not the one they come to, at least that's what it appears.
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  11. #71
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DrumsNotDead View Post
    He's arguing it hurts the country they leave, not the one they come to, at least that's what it appears.
    He mentions both, starts off clearly talking about Americans
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    I've already debunked your garbage about muh immigrants in another thread to which you never replied. There have been plenty of studies, meta-analyses etc. from various countries that look into immigration and its effect on wages and none of them show the effect you are describing. The most well known anti-immigration economist (George Borjas) found in his research that in the long term, there was little to no downward pressure on wages from immigration at all.

    Your only argument was "increase in the supply of labour means lower wages, duh". This is obviously retarded since it assumes no economic growth and wealth creation is possible, which is the opposite of what actually happens when more people enter a given area, hence why wages are not the same as they were in 1800 despite the global population being much much higher.

    Your wild, unsubstantiated ramblings literally have no relevance to this thread or topic.
    My fault that I didn't respond to your other post. It certainly wasn't intentional. Link it and I'll read and respond to what you said there.

    As for your immigration argument here, it's totally false. Immigrants certainly create some jobs and job opportunities but it's nowhere near enough to make up for the influx of labor. Perhaps you would have an argument if we only allowed business owning immigrants or something similar but there's no way, absolutely no way that immigrants create as many jobs as they've taken away. And if that is your argument, is automation not going to create any jobs? Are the robots going to install and fix themselves?

    Also I suggest you look into the demands of the labor market. We've seen it right here in the US. Look at wages during the shale boom. Lack of workers and high pay. That applied to literally every job associated with it. Literally every job. It didn't matter if you were working in the oil industry, construction, or fast food. Everyone was getting paid far more than they were elsewhere in the country because they were in demand.
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  13. #73
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    Originally Posted by Qong View Post
    My fault that I didn't respond to your other post. It certainly wasn't intentional. Link it and I'll read and respond to what you said there.

    As for your immigration argument here, it's totally false. Immigrants certainly create some jobs and job opportunities but it's nowhere near enough to make up for the influx of labor. Perhaps you would have an argument if we only allowed business owning immigrants or something similar but there's no way, absolutely no way that immigrants create as many jobs as they've taken away. And if that is your argument, is automation not going to create any jobs? Are the robots going to install and fix themselves?

    Also I suggest you look into the demands of the labor market. We've seen it right here in the US. Look at wages during the shale boom. Lack of workers and high pay. That applied to literally every job associated with it. Literally every job. It didn't matter if you were working in the oil industry, construction, or fast food. Everyone was getting paid far more than they were elsewhere in the country because they were in demand.
    You're going to need to actually cite some evidence. Just saying immigration is what is killing wages because it seems like it makes sense to you isn't an argument.

    Here's a paper that specifically examined the large increase in immigration into the US in the 1990s onwards. It found an overall small positive effect on native wages, though nothing that significant:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...4.2011.01052.x

    Here's a hefty meta-analyses that found only a tiny effect on native wages:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...109-010-0111-y

    There are lots more I can find for you that show similar results.

    Basically all the research that has been done into this (both in the US and globally) finds a very, very small effect if anything. That's the reality of it, so Yang is perfectly justified in not basing his platform around immigration, because he actually understands the evidence and data.
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    You're a certified autist if you think America can afford what he proposes.
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    Originally Posted by jackamo2887 View Post
    You're a certified autist if you think America can afford what he proposes.
    We have a 21 Trillion dollar economy. We could afford the 2.4 Trillion dollar War in Afghanistan the 3.1 Trillion Was in Iraq and the 4.1 Trillion ( so far out of 16.1 Trillion) Bank bailout. We seemed to have limitless resources for Banks and the Military industrial complex. Why not our people?
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    Originally Posted by BHall1991 View Post
    We have a 21 Trillion dollar economy. We could afford the 2.4 Trillion dollar War in Afghanistan the 3.1 Trillion Was in Iraq and the 4.1 Trillion ( so far out of 16.1 Trillion) Bank bailout. We seemed to have limitless resources for Banks and the Military industrial complex. Why not our people?
    No we couldn't afford any of that either you dope.
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    So bringing over tens of millions of immigrants, based almost entirely on who they are related to, while tens of millions of those current jobs become automated, are good for Americans!!11!!

    So Wall St/Bg Tech wants to bring in unlimited numbers of foreign born workers because it increases the wages of their current American workforce and makes those American workers even more valuable!1!!1!

    #ImWithYang!

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  18. #78
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    You're going to need to actually cite some evidence. Just saying immigration is what is killing wages because it seems like it makes sense to you isn't an argument.

    Here's a paper that specifically examined the large increase in immigration into the US in the 1990s onwards. It found an overall small positive effect on native wages, though nothing that significant:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...4.2011.01052.x

    Here's a hefty meta-analyses that found only a tiny effect on native wages:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...109-010-0111-y

    There are lots more I can find for you that show similar results.

    Basically all the research that has been done into this (both in the US and globally) finds a very, very small effect if anything. That's the reality of it, so Yang is perfectly justified in not basing his platform around immigration, because he actually understands the evidence and data.
    Those studies are nonsense. I don't know of any studies that have even been done in regards to the labor market and wages because it's well-known common-sense that the labor market is affected by supply and demand like literally every market is. More workers means more competition means lower wages. The same principle applies to everything. Literally everything.

    I gave you an example of labor being in short supply and wages skyrocketing as a result. That just happened right here in the good old USA.

    In addition to wages being stagnated for average folks their cost of living has increased dramatically. Housing prices for example:

    Again supply and demand is at work here. Lots of demand for housing in places like Los Angeles. As a result average Americans are unable to afford housing at rates that they used to. Instead of owning a home and starting a family young people in LA are grouping up to simply afford rent. That's reality. I've seen it with my own eyes.

    Education costs are another example of average Americans being hurt by immigration. Again, supply and demand. The demand for education is so great as people, foreign and native, try to better their economic situation that schools are able to charge enough to make student loans the top non-mortgage debt in the country.

    So those studies don't refute anything at all. They're propaganda nonsense. More workers always means lower wages. Always. More demand for things like housing and education always means high prices. Always.
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    Youre making it more complex than it is:

    Theirs plenty of people who are fine getting by n just not working hard. Thats theM.

    Now think about giving people cash to do.. literally nothing.

    Whats the incentive to even friggin work, honestly?
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    I dont see how UBI wouldnt just cause massive inflation to services, rents and housing followed by goods. Basically putting everyone in the same boat as they are in currently. Except it would directly increase consumerism benefiting other countries.
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    Originally Posted by Foxmulder0 View Post
    Youre making it more complex than it is:

    Theirs plenty of people who are fine getting by n just not working hard. Thats theM.

    Now think about giving people cash to do.. literally nothing.

    Whats the incentive to even friggin work, honestly?
    What do you think those people would do with the money?

    1k a month isnt enough for people to live on. It's slightly below the current poverty line. People would still work. People have been working since there was people. People worked long before currency was even invented and they'l continue to work as long as there is people.
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    Originally Posted by GriecoR View Post
    I dont see how UBI wouldnt just cause massive inflation to services, rents and housing followed by goods. Basically putting everyone in the same boat as they are in currently. Except it would directly increase consumerism benefiting other countries.
    This has already been addressed. It wouldnt cause inflation because inflation is tied to money supply and the law of the free market would still apply. In almost all of the sectors of our economy that aren't artificially constrained the market would keep cost down. Let's say a local restaurant jacks up the prices after UBI is passed. Most people will stop frequenting that restaurant and instead go to another place with reasonable price. 1k a month isn't enough to make people cost insensitive. Consumer good certainty wouldnt go up due to UBI. Consumer good are in a race to the bottom. There are certain areas of our economy that are artificially constrained like housing, health care and education which could go up but those are another issue altogether. I'm not a fan of consumerism but to think that increased consumerism would be bad for us isnt the case. It would be a boon to the economy as a whole and locally.
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    Originally Posted by Qong View Post
    Those studies are nonsense.
    Sorry dude, you don't just get to ignore numerous pieces of data and meta analyses because it turns out the garbage you are pumping is false. "You don't know of any studies" when I literally just provided you some? Are you sure you aren't just completely uneducated on this topic (rhetorical question)?

    You've provided no evidence for any of your claims other than your feels which are 100% worthless. You are wrong and don't know what you're talking about, take the L and move on/learn how to actually present "facts and logic" in an argument like you conservatives claim you're so adept at (LOL).
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Sorry dude, you don't just get to ignore numerous pieces of data and meta analyses because it turns out the garbage you are pumping is false. "You don't know of any studies" when I literally just provided you some? Are you sure you aren't just completely uneducated on this topic (rhetorical question)?

    You've provided no evidence for any of your claims other than your feels which are 100% worthless. You are wrong and don't know what you're talking about, take the L and move on/learn how to actually present "facts and logic" in an argument like you conservatives claim you're so adept at (LOL).




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    Originally Posted by PenorBrahNoHomo View Post



    Spoiler!
    Anecdotes =/= evidence part 2. Stop posting.
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    Originally Posted by jackamo2887 View Post
    No we couldn't afford any of that either you dope.
    this.

    he's basically saying, "we're already in the red so we can afford to go further into the red.".
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Anecdotes =/= evidence part 2. Stop posting.
    People's personal experiences will always mean more than any number of meta-analyses. Sorry but feelings don't care about your 'facts'.
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    Originally Posted by PenorBrahNoHomo View Post
    People's personal experiences will always mean more than any number of meta-analyses. Sorry but feelings don't care about your 'facts'.
    2/10 trolling
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    Originally Posted by Mumra View Post
    this.

    he's basically saying, "we're already in the red so we can afford to go further into the red.".
    Kinda seems that this is the case. We are already trillions in debt, what's another trillion or so? Not like it will ever get paid back, lol.
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    Originally Posted by Mumra View Post
    this.

    he's basically saying, "we're already in the red so we can afford to go further into the red.".
    While we shouldn't and wouldn't have the deficit we have currently if we weren't fighting these perpetual wars, the US government does not have a balanced budget clause and is basically designed to operate at a deficit. We've had some sort of deficit since 1783. 1783! We've only had 0 debt once and in modern times have only had a balanced budget for 5 out of the last 50 years. With UBI you're putting the money into the hand of the people it's going directly into the economy.
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