Andrew Yang and Universal Basic Income (UBI)

[ymer]

Have u heard of warren buffet?

Yes

[RIKTER]

So this guy is pushing for UBI and I see so many issues with it.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/the-freedom-dividend/

What do you guys think about this and would the country ever open up to this idea? In my mind there is no such thing as free money so we have to pay for this somehow.

What say you Misc?

Once the electorate, thanks to LEGAL immigration, is big enough to actually pass a UBI...then its big enough to dictate its amount...and lol thinking $1000 is the ceiling.

[IronRooster2]

Yeah, it is a pittance of a bribe to make sure people don't acquire class consciousness and seize ownership over their own labor and natural resources.

A dividend like in communist Alaska would be better. Communist Norway where the government owns over 80% of all wealth would be... eh....

It is an interesting case story of targeted "help" though - where people like helping themselves but don't like helping people who aren't them. Yangbux would be great for able-bodied neets, not so great for people with health issues or who are on social security already. Single payer medicare would be a far more impactful boon to more people, but, doesn't help you pay the many, many other rents we have. (Non-profit competition to markets of basic need would be a start there. I get an erection at the idea of Rachel Maddow's boss losing money, like any normal person would.)

Altogether Yang is still vastly better than 95% of the field. It's packed with nothing but libs like Trump and Biden who want to give all our money to banks and such. Bloomberg is obnoxiously pouring hundreds of millions as insurance in case Sanders gets the nomination, so he can run third party to help his lib friend Trump win.

So much libbing these days, sheesh.....

[randombrah102]

There's a reason waitresses make $3/hour. Don't think that won't happen to everyone a few years after UBI hypothetically would be implemented. Also imagine how fast your rent will go up simply because now it can.

this. the floor will always be the floor. raising it won't change anything.

Interesting interesting. So tell me why are workers not working in the same conditions for the same pay they did in the late 1800s?

[wincel]

Yes

did u know he is an economist

[isingmodel]

Yeah, it is a pittance of a bribe to make sure people don't acquire class consciousness and seize ownership over their own labor and natural resources.

A dividend like in communist Alaska would be better. Communist Norway where the government owns over 80% of all wealth would be... eh....

It is an interesting case story of targeted "help" though - where people like helping themselves but don't like helping people who aren't them. Yangbux would be great for able-bodied neets, not so great for people with health issues or who are on social security already. Single payer medicare would be a far more impactful boon to more people, but, doesn't help you pay the many, many other rents we have. (Non-profit competition to markets of basic need would be a start there. I get an erection at the idea of Rachel Maddow's boss losing money, like any normal person would.)

Altogether Yang is still vastly better than 95% of the field. It's packed with nothing but libs like Trump and Biden who want to give all our money to banks and such. Bloomberg is obnoxiously pouring hundreds of millions as insurance in case Sanders gets the nomination, so he can run third party to help his lib friend Trump win.

So much libbing these days, sheesh.....

Gotta love how Yang simultaneously gets called a pinko communist, as well as a capitalist trojan horse/class traitor.

Think it speaks to how what hes proposing is genuinely unlike anything that we are familiar with in the traditional economic dichotomy.

[wincel]

Gotta love how Yang simultaneously gets called a pinko communist, as well as a capitalist trojan horse/class traitor.

Think it speaks to how what hes proposing is genuinely unlike anything that we are familiar with in the traditional economic dichotomy.

A tulsi/yang ticket would be goat

[ymer]

did u know he is an economist

He's an investor.

[isingmodel]

A tulsi/yang ticket would be goat

Lot of crossover between Yang and Tulsi supporters and the two of them are good bros as well.

IMO the best possible outcome would be Yang in the oval office, a VP who strategically extends his appeal/voter base as much as possible, and Tulsi as Secretary of State where she can do the most good.

[Austanian]

As presented Yangs plan will at minimum increase deficits by 2.5 trillion per year.

This is impossible to absorb without massive inflation.

The FREE 12k is not really 12k because the VAT is in play. If you make 50k per year and I give you 12k a year, but I demand you pay me 10% of your purchases how much did I give you?

Beyond that we have a few factors.

- VAT taxes cause prices to increase beyond the price of the VAT because companies operate off margins and not raw profits.
- Because the 2.5 Trillion in deficits is impossible to absorb it would certainly be treated like Social Security and thus treated as taxable income bringing break even down to around 60k per year.
- The 2.5 Trillion depends on all current social programs being removed. Those programs can be cut, but not removed as plenty of them are targeted at children and older adults.

It is economically and politically DOA.

[isingmodel]

As presented Yangs plan will at minimum increase deficits by 2.5 trillion per year.

This is impossible to absorb without massive inflation.

The FREE 12k is not really 12k because the VAT is in play. If you make 50k per year and I give you 12k a year, but I demand you pay me 10% of your purchases how much did I give you?

Beyond that we have a few factors.

- VAT taxes cause prices to increase beyond the price of the VAT because companies operate off margins and not raw profits.
- Because the 2.5 Trillion in deficits is impossible to absorb it would certainly be treated like Social Security and thus treated as taxable income bringing break even down to around 60k per year.
- The 2.5 Trillion depends on all current social programs being removed. Those programs can be cut, but not removed as plenty of them are targeted at children and older adults.

It is economically and politically DOA.

If you make $50k a year tops, how much are you likely to be spending per year on non-staple goods and services?

Because you'd need to be spending $120k a year on those for VAT to completely wash it out.

[Austanian]

If you make $50k a year tops, how much are you likely to be spending per year on non-staple goods and services?

Because you'd need to be spending $120k a year on those for VAT to completely wash it out.

VAT is priced into new construction and renovation.

VAT is priced into vehicles.

Those items are bought on credit which ensures that the 10% is compounded over the life of the loan.

That increase ensures that virtually every purchase will have to deal with the vat being passed through on top of the greater than 10% increase in prices.

While it is TRUE on the surface that you would need 120k ish (I say ish because you still refuse to deal with the inflationary consequences) to cancel out the 12k entirely none of that really matters.

Yang's program as stated would run too high of a deficit which means it could never be implemented. You could get closer by taxing the 12k like social security which would reduce the gap significantly. Which would also move break even down to 60k or so depending on state. Though it wouldn't clear out the deficit.

We have done this before you believe in UBI so to your core that you can't accept that it has clear failings that make it DOA. I don't post on these UBI threads for Fan bois like you. Just for those that are still capable of thinking through the consequences.

[isingmodel]

VAT is priced into new construction and renovation.

VAT is priced into vehicles.

Those items are bought on credit which ensures that the 10% is compounded over the life of the loan.

That increase ensures that virtually every purchase will have to deal with the vat being passed through on top of the greater than 10% increase in prices.

While it is TRUE on the surface that you would need 120k ish (I say ish because you still refuse to deal with the inflationary consequences) to cancel out the 12k entirely none of that really matters.

Yang's program as stated would run too high of a deficit which means it could never be implemented. You could get closer by taxing the 12k like social security which would reduce the gap significantly. Which would also move break even down to 60k or so depending on state. Though it wouldn't clear out the deficit.

We have done this before you believe in UBI so to your core that you can't accept that it has clear failings that make it DOA. I don't post on these UBI threads for Fan bois like you. Just for those that are still capable of thinking through the consequences.

It would run a deficit at the start, which would shrink year on year as the economy grows. The numbers are worked through in detail here:

https://freedom-dividend.com/

The inflation concerns have been addressed ad nauseum.

[NuggzTheNinja]

The Sanders/Warren crowd want to fix it by handing those resources over to the federal government and having them decide how it is used. Yang is suggesting putting those resources directly back in the hands of Americans and giving them the ability to decide how to improve their own lives.

UBI is literally the worst possible combination of these two ideas.

[BHall1991]

As presented Yangs plan will at minimum increase deficits by 2.5 trillion per year.

This is impossible to absorb without massive inflation.

The FREE 12k is not really 12k because the VAT is in play. If you make 50k per year and I give you 12k a year, but I demand you pay me 10% of your purchases how much did I give you?

Beyond that we have a few factors.

- VAT taxes cause prices to increase beyond the price of the VAT because companies operate off margins and not raw profits.
- Because the 2.5 Trillion in deficits is impossible to absorb it would certainly be treated like Social Security and thus treated as taxable income bringing break even down to around 60k per year.
- The 2.5 Trillion depends on all current social programs being removed. Those programs can be cut, but not removed as plenty of them are targeted at children and older adults.

It is economically and politically DOA.

Do we really have to do this again. Please research what a VAT is. You have made the incorrect assumption that's it's the same as income tax again...

How could someone making 60k a year spend 120k on purchases... That's not even factoring in how the VAT would be implemented.

[Maestro]

Yang thinks there is money floating in thin air that can be redirected for the prosperity of evetyone. He’s a technocrat and he has some really odd ball ideas, like paying congresspeople and the president more of a salary so they’re less likely to take bribes and kickbacks.

He wants social media companies to pay YOU every time you upload an image because according to him you should own your data.

He has some ideas and I like his unique perspective but he does nothing to address corporate corruption meaning more of the same. No thanks. UBI sounds great but we aren’t even seeing the devastating effects of automation yet.

He wants to pay politicians more but make it Illegal to profit off of their notoriety (book deals/speeches etc) after they leave office, and he wants term limits for congressmen,senators and supreme court justices, and he wants to make it illegal for relatives to work in a presidents administration. Theres just too many opportunities for corruption and "back-scratching"

For social media, it's not everytime you upload an image it's the fact that they're using our data to make money and they're not being taxed for it. Every google search we make they're receiving information from us to prop up their brand. As for Amazon. They're killing small businesses in small towns (offering nothing in return for those communities) and pay very little in taxes even though their vehicles are riding on our roads putting wear and tear on infrastructure.

[Maestro]

There's a reason waitresses make $3/hour. Don't think that won't happen to everyone a few years after UBI hypothetically would be implemented. Also imagine how fast your rent will go up simply because now it can.

I'm sure that will occur to some extent, but then the market place will become more competitive with those apartment complexes that dont raise their rent prices.

More to the point, for most people, an extra $1k/month would simply be enough to take out a mortgage on an actual house.

Something else to keep in mind. The freedom dividend is for every adult 18 years or older. If you're married and have a child that is 18 living at home....that's an additional $36k in that household and if they live in an apartment they could definitely use that money to just move into a house.

[greenleaf]

Does it really matter? He's doing worse than Harris in the polls. It's just a matter of when he'll throw in the towel.

[Mumra]

Have u heard of warren buffet?

welp there's 1.... with an economics degree but he's not a practicing one. he's an investor and if you told him businesses that he was heavily invested in had to increase their wages over night because the gov't said so he'd pull instantly

Interesting interesting. So tell me why are workers not working in the same conditions for the same pay they did in the late 1800s?

technology and the general advancement of society. there's tons of reasons for it and giving people welfare and artificially raising the MW aren't.

[ImBunky]

I'm sure that will occur to some extent, but then the market place will become more competitive with those apartment complexes that dont raise their rent prices.

More to the point, for most people, an extra $1k/month would simply be enough to take out a mortgage on an actual house.

Something else to keep in mind. The freedom dividend is for every adult 18 years or older. If you're married and have a child that is 18 living at home....that's an additional $36k in that household and if they live in an apartment they could definitely use that money to just move into a house.

You don't think that the price of homes will go up, and along with that insurance and property taxes.

[badreligion]

I am in favor of someone giving me free money. I am opposed to other people getting free money.

I feel the same way. Yet again, the two important questions arise....

1.What are the qualifications to be eligible for this?

2. How will it be paid for?

[isingmodel]

I feel the same way. Yet again, the two important questions arise....

1.What are the qualifications to be eligible for this?

2. How will it be paid for?

None, other than being an adult who isn't a convicted felon. Hence universal.

For a detailed breakdown on paying for it see the following:

https://freedom-dividend.com/

[badreligion]

None, other than being an adult who isn't a convicted felon. Hence universal.

For a detailed breakdown on paying for it see the following:

https://freedom-dividend.com/

Okay so how will it be paid for?

[JUGGERNAUT1333]

I don't know anything about economics, but even I know there is no such thing as "free money". If we all get some kind of UBI, we are gonna pay for it somewhere/sometime. Money aint growing on tree fam.

[badreligion]

I don't know anything about economics, but even I know there is no such thing as "free money". If we all get some kind of UBI, we are gonna pay for it somewhere/sometime. Money aint growing on tree fam.

Essentially it's socialism with extra steps.

[BHall1991]

You don't think that the price of homes will go up, and along with that insurance and property taxes.

No. Money makes people less exploitable not more exploitable. A large part of the reason why people have to tolerate poor jobs or living conditions is because they dont have other options because they have limited resources.

[BHall1991]

I don't know anything about economics, but even I know there is no such thing as "free money". If we all get some kind of UBI, we are gonna pay for it somewhere/sometime. Money aint growing on tree fam.

Money has been fiat for decades. In 2008 The Fed literally bailed out the banks for 4.1 Trillion, the start of a 16.4 Trillion dollar plan, without batting an eye. Right now they're propping up Wallstreet with 690 billion a month. If we actually gave that money to our people it would grow the consumer economy and overall economy far more than giving it to Banks and Wallstreet.

[ymer]

No. Money makes people less exploitable not more exploitable. A large part of the reason why people have to tolerate poor jobs or living conditions is because they dont have other options because they have limited resources.

Retard alert

[jamalfudge]

I'm sure that will occur to some extent, but then the market place will become more competitive with those apartment complexes that dont raise their rent prices.

More to the point, for most people, an extra $1k/month would simply be enough to take out a mortgage on an actual house.

Something else to keep in mind. The freedom dividend is for every adult 18 years or older. If you're married and have a child that is 18 living at home....that's an additional $36k in that household and if they live in an apartment they could definitely use that money to just move into a house.

[BHall1991]

Retard alert

When you cant provide counterpoints just resort to ad hominems.

What I stated there is pretty obvious to anyone over 100 IQ.