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  1. #91
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    education, like military, police, roads and healthcare, should be rights of citizenship, not privileges of the wealthy.

    if you outlaw all private education, politicians would be forced to send their sh*tty kids to the same schools as everyone else

    bet your ass theyd fund them and make sure theyre good in that case

    in b4 maga brahs have "thoughts" on this
    Fuk off communist. Take your ass to China and stay away from our good schools
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  2. #92
    Registered User sandaltan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    LOL thats terrible acting!

    youll be alright wincey

    there are lots of good governments around the world. lots of bad ones too. the US isnt perfect but it could be a lot worse.
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  3. #93
    Registered User sandaltan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Fuk off communist. Take your ass to China and stay away from our good schools
    nah i like socal

    better question is why do you live in a state where your vote for president doesnt count?
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  4. #94
    Lifelong Virgin wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    LOL thats terrible acting!

    youll be alright wincey

    there are lots of good governments around the world. lots of bad ones too. the US isnt perfect but it could be a lot worse.
    Switzerland seems legit tbh. No war since 1847? CERN is there? An international gem...a place for citizens of the world who believe in peace. If I could go there, I would. I just don't know if I am ready to give up on America yet. It is hard to get into Switzerland. Maybe if I find a teaching job there? IDK...
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  5. #95
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Switzerland seems legit tbh. No war since 1847? CERN is there? An international gem...a place for citizens of the world who believe in peace. If I could go there, I would. I just don't know if I am ready to give up on America yet. It is hard to get into Switzerland. Maybe if I find a teaching job there? IDK...
    Switzerland is apparently boring af. Everything seems amazing on paper but people say it's just so dull to live there and the locals are generally unfriendly and quite xenophobic towards certain types. Though I guess if you're an introvert it might be perfect...
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  6. #96
    Registered User TurbanMon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Fuk off communist. Take your ass to China and stay away from our good schools
    i think the great irony in your statement is that primary and secondary educations in China are far superior to those here. Only their universities suck.
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  7. #97
    Lifelong Virgin wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Switzerland is apparently boring af. Everything seems amazing on paper but people say it's just so dull to live there and the locals are generally unfriendly and quite xenophobic towards certain types. Though I guess if you're an introvert it might be perfect...
    I am an introvert. I know most here would never have guessed. They have good reason to be xenophobic. Compared to Switzerland, the rest of the planet is completely savage and batchit insane.
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  8. #98
    Registered User sandaltan's Avatar
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    i wonder if we'll ever see sy again

    some people would change their name and move to another country

    #pray4sy
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  9. #99
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    i wonder if we'll ever see sy again

    some people would change their name and move to another country

    #pray4sy
    The best part is that she probably considers herself a "constitutional conservative"

    Wait what's the 6th amendment? Never heard of that Pokemon!
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  10. #100
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    thanks sy, i love it when non-lawyer lay people explain to licensed attorneys how their job works

    the courts do, in fact, regularly appoint attorneys to work for defendants, against their will. nobody cares what the ABA says. it has no authority over licensed attorneys.
    Please tell us of the cases where the cops took down a poor lawyer's door to drag him into court, can't wait to hear it.

    the RIGHT to an attorney is enshrined in the SIXTH AMENDMENT TO THE US CONSTITUTION. the state bars where attorneys are licensed enforce this right, not the ABA. if youre a defendant in a criminal case, the court WILL appoint you an attorney as a RIGHT, even if the attorney doesnt want to do the job, and even if the defendant cant pay. the attorney does not have the right to withdraw, and if they dont do the work they'll face suspension, fines and/or disbarment. See Gideon v. Wainwright (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html) and maybe try reading the 6th amendment: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...ixth_amendment

    "The right of an indigent defendant in a criminal trial to have the assistance of counsel is a fundamental right and essential to a fair trial" (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html)

    once again, you have absolutely zero clue what youre talking about

    LOL
    Oh dear god, did you even read the case before posting it?
    The case has nothing to do with forcing a lawyer to represent people. It has to do with weather the person in question had a right to free representation in this particular case.

    "Gideon was charged with breaking and entering with the intent to commit a misdemeanor, which is a felony under Florida law. At trial, Gideon appeared in court without an attorney. In open court, he asked the judge to appoint counsel for him because he could not afford an attorney. The trial judge denied Gideon’s request because Florida law only permitted appointment of counsel for poor defendants charged with capital offenses."

    Let's remind ourselves what the 6th Amendment says, shall we?

    "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

    That means people do not have the right to counsel in EVERY TRIAL only in CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS. Gideon was about whether Florida could narrow that even further by providing counsel only for capital offences, which a respected lawyer like yourself should know, is a subset of criminal offences.

    So no Gideon has nothing to do with the cops taking down the door of a lawyer because he didn't want to represent an indigent person, but thank you for showing us your reading comprehension skills are close to zero. I seriously hope you are NOT a lawyer because I feel sorry for any poor bastard whose life is decided by your lawyering skills.

    As for the Constitution calling it a right, as I mentioned in the previous post, there are various categories of rights. There's legal rights vs natural rights, which is the case here. You have the natural right of freedom from forced labor unless that's your punishment for a crime and you went through the due process of law (5th Amendment, cough cough), and there's the legal right to counsel (6th Amendment). Natural rights being "inalienable rights", they will always take precedence over legal rights. That should be obvious to a 5 year old: the law cannot establish the legal right to own slaves because it would go against the natural right to freedom.

    Sounds like you should go back to law school, buddy.

    Last edited by sy2502; 12-06-2019 at 10:22 AM.
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  11. #101
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Please tell us of the cases where the cops took down a poor lawyer's door to drag him into court, can't wait to hear it.



    Oh dear god, did you even read the case before posting it?
    The case has nothing to do with forcing a lawyer to represent people. It has to do with weather the person in question had a right to free representation in this particular case.

    "Gideon was charged with breaking and entering with the intent to commit a misdemeanor, which is a felony under Florida law. At trial, Gideon appeared in court without an attorney. In open court, he asked the judge to appoint counsel for him because he could not afford an attorney. The trial judge denied Gideon’s request because Florida law only permitted appointment of counsel for poor defendants charged with capital offenses."

    Let's remind ourselves what the 6th Amendment says, shall we?

    "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

    That means people do not have the right to counsel in EVERY TRIAL only in CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS. Gideon was about whether Florida could narrow that even further by providing counsel only for capital offences, which a respected lawyer like yourself should know, is a subset of criminal offences.

    So no Gideon has nothing to do with the cops taking down the door of a lawyer because he didn't want to represent an indigent person, but thank you for showing us your reading comprehension skills are close to zero. I seriously hope you are NOT a lawyer because I feel sorry for any poor bastard whose life is decided by your lawyering skills.

    As for the Constitution calling it a right, as I mentioned in the previous post, there are various categories of rights. There's legal rights vs natural rights, which is the case here. You have the natural right of freedom from forced labor unless that's your punishment for a crime and you went through the due process of law (5th Amendment, cough cough), and there's the legal right to counsel (6th Amendment). Natural rights being "inalienable rights", they will always take precedence over legal rights. That should be obvious to a 5 year old: the law cannot establish the legal right to own slaves because it would go against the natural right to freedom.

    Sounds like you should go back to law school, buddy.

    Woah nice changing the goalposts there buddy. Your first claim was that nobody can have the right to somebody else's labour, full stop.

    You were then shown that the Constitution does recognise a right to other people's labour in certain situations. Now you're moving to "yeah but that's a legal right, that's different".

    If someone can have a right to legal counsel then someone can have a right to healthcare. It doesn't matter if you don't consider it a natural right (the concept of natural rights is self contradictory anyway), society can still recognise it as a right if it chooses to and is willing to enforce it.

    So yeah, moving the goalposts isn't going to save your crappy attempt at an argument. Time to give it up.
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  12. #102
    Registered User BearyManilowe's Avatar
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    I get the feeling this thread is no longer about private education.
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  13. #103
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    bla bla bla
    Q: Can the government force anyone to work for it?
    A: NO. Forced labor is illegal. 18 U.S. Code § 1589.
    Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--
    (1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;
    (2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or
    (3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,

    shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.


    Q: So how does the government get public defenders?
    A: there are 2 ways. Lawyers hired by public defender's office, a government-funded agency that provides legal representation to indigent defendants, and external lawyers who have agreed to represent indigent defendants, with appointment being either on a contractual basis, through which the lawyer accepts an agreed number of cases from the court for the term of the contract, or a case-by-case basis. These people are hired not forced

    Q: But what if they can't get enough lawyers to agree to be public defenders?
    A: welcome to today's world, where the scarcity of public defenders is a very well known problem. If it was as easy as forcing people to do the job we wouldn't be having this problem, would we now?

    Q: So what if there's nobody available to represent me?
    A: there are 2 possibilities:
    1) Request for a case dismissal or a mistrial. That's done routinely when the constitutionality of a trial comes into question. Examples are when evidence was obtained illegally (4th Amendment, search and seizures), when the trial would result in double jeopardy (5th Amendment), when the defendant was forced to self incriminate (5th Amendment), when the trial is taking too long (6th Amendment, speedy trial).
    2) If the trial is still to proceed, you will do what millions of people are doing right now: sit in jail waiting for a public defender to become available. This can easily mean months.

    Q: Wouldn't that violate the constitutional right to a speedy trial?
    A: bingo! Now you understand the problem of calling "right" something that can only be afforded by taking away another "right".

    Q: So the right to representation is not a good example of being entitled to other people's work?
    A: it would be if things worked the way isingmodel thought it worked. The way it actually works, no.

    Q: So isingmodel calls himself an expert but doesn't know any of these things?
    A: clearly the word "expert" doesn't mean what he thinks it means.

    Q: How is he going to react to being shown to be completely wrong and ignorant about something he thought he was an expert of?
    A: he's going to throw a tantrum like a 5 year old, stomp his feet, scream and call me names. It's ok, on my way home from work I bought a box of crayons, he can take them to his safe space until he's over his tantrum.
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  14. #104
    Vibram Glove Guy Jaroctor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rise21 View Post
    Depends on what you mean by education. Trade schools are a form of education, should they only be public also?
    Trade schools (or at the very least, certain trades) should be open and subsidized for everyone. Allowing people to be useful to society shouldn't depend on their ability to afford it.
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    saldatan? isinmodel? You guys still there? I didn't scare you away, did I?
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  16. #106
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    snip
    So the summary of this is that people do have a right to legal representation, provided by the state at no cost to the party.

    That is, as per your own definition, someone can make a just/legitimate claim to have a lawyer represent them, and have this claim rightfully enforced by the state.

    Yeah well done, you made our point for us. Try harder next time/don't try and shift your failing argument halfway through.
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  17. #107
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    So the summary of this is that people do have a right to legal representation, provided by the state at no cost to the party.

    That is, as per your own definition, someone can make a just/legitimate claim to have a lawyer represent them, and have this claim rightfully enforced by the state.
    Yes to the 1st and no to the 2nd. I really don't know why it's so hard for you to get it, I spelled it out for you very clearly and easily. I am truly at a loss on how to dumb it down even more for you to get it. Public defendant is a government job just like any other job. Are you taking advantage of somebody's time, work, and energy when you go to the DMV because a government employee is providing you a service? Please do embarrass yourself saying yes, because DMV lazy azzholes working for you out of the goodness of their heart just to uphold your rights is hysterical, but at this point I'd expect anything from you.

    Yeah well done, you made our point for us.
    Nope.
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  18. #108
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Yes to the 1st and no to the 2nd. I really don't know why it's so hard for you to get it, I spelled it out for you very clearly and easily. I am truly at a loss on how to dumb it down even more for you to get it. Public defendant is a government job just like any other job. Are you taking advantage of somebody's time, work, and energy when you go to the DMV because a government employee is providing you a service? Please do embarrass yourself saying yes, because DMV lazy azzholes working for you out of the goodness of their heart just to uphold your rights is hysterical, but at this point I'd expect anything from you.



    Nope.
    A legal right here is just an entitlement to the use of a service which will be provided for you regardless of your ability to pay. That can be a public defender, it can be a doctor, it can be anything society wants it to be.

    Your argument started off as "nobody can have a right to healthcare", after which you quickly switched to "bbbbbbut that's a legal right, not a natural right" because as always you were talking out of your ass.

    If you recognise that legal rights are a real thing then people can in every sense of the word have a right to healthcare, or whatever else. This literally should not be difficult to grasp even for someone as vacuous as you.
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