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  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    UBI is literally being entitled to something which
    has to be administered by somebody (the government) by taking money in the form of tax from peoples'/business' wealth.

    You could argue that you should be entitled to sex, it's just not one that any society is ever likely to consider an entitlement or right, for good reasons.
    but sex is part of being a healthy human

    I demand sex as part of my healthcare

    think of it as preventative medicine...by supplying incels with sex, u are preventing worse public health outcomes
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    but sex is part of being a healthy human

    I demand sex as part of my healthcare

    think of it as preventative medicine...by supplying incels with sex, u are preventing worse public health outcomes
    Like I said you can try, but no society would consider it a right, or to overrule one's right to bodily integrity. Neither would you, because it would mean some lonely gay dude could demand to rape you in the azz whenever he wanted to.
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Like I said you can try, but no society would consider it a right, or to overrule one's right to bodily integrity. Neither would you, because it would mean some lonely gay dude could demand to rape you in the azz whenever he wanted to.
    yet someone should be forced to treat me?
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    yet someone should be forced to treat me?
    Well if someone willingly signs up to be a doctor and chooses to work in public healthcare then yes as part of their employment contract and hours they will be "forced" to treat you while at work.
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  5. #65
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    But we do have a right to legal representation. If you are assaulted or raped and want to press charges on the person, you will be appointed a prosecutor if you cannot afford one. If someone levies charges against you, you will be appointed a defendant in the same manner. This is a legal right everybody has, regardless of their ability to pay.

    There are many things described as rights that do not even make sense outside of the concept of an organised society with a governing system. How can a corporation have a "natural" right? How can a state have a "natural" right?

    God given, natural rights don't exist. God firstly does not exist so there's that. Secondly, in nature, humans can only operate based on what they are personally capable of doing. If I am capable of defending a piece of land then for all purposes I can call it my property. If someone is stronger than me and takes it by force then for all purposes it's now their property. Me then claiming that I have a "right" to that property is meaningless - in what context and to whom am I going to make this claim of rights over that property? Is there something woven into the fabric of nature that identifies it as my property which I have a right to, and if so, where?

    We have rights because we invented them and we have a system which is organised and strong enough to enforce them. As such we can choose whatever the **** we want to be considered as a right, and we already do just that. It's as simple as that boyo.

    Most people can't afford to hire a proper attorney though. Either we all have the same level of representation or none of us do. People go bankrupt paying attorney fees far too often. I say we do away with greedy private firms. If I need a divorce lawyer I should be able to walk into a public law firm and get one for free.. Public defenders for ALL!
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    yet someone should be forced to treat me?
    Highlighting your need for public education a little more with every post.
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by BearyManilowe View Post
    Highlighting your need for public education a little more with every post.
    but y tho
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  8. #68
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    Originally Posted by NKWulf View Post
    did you go to a state or private law school?
    Lets be honest here. He is probably attending night school to get his GED.
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  9. #69
    Registered User BFast55's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    education, like military, police, roads and healthcare, should be rights of citizenship, not privileges of the wealthy.

    if you outlaw all private education, politicians would be forced to send their sh*tty kids to the same schools as everyone else

    bet your ass theyd fund them and make sure theyre good in that case

    in b4 maga brahs have "thoughts" on this
    Why is the elimination of rights always the left's answer?
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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by BFast55 View Post
    Why is the elimination of rights always the left's answer?
    how else are they going to impose their communist utopia upon the world?
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  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    this reads like an incoherent ramble

    slow down, articulate your thoughts, dont just vomit them out like brain-puke
    So you didn't understand anything said. Got it.

    i dont know why youre arguing dictionary definitions of "right." thats not an argument. its a logical fallacy. but then again you dont understand the absolute basic concept of the social contract of government. you think of it like a lease agreement.

    like an idiot
    Dictionary definition of "right": something to which one has a just claim (Merriam Webster)

    Do explain how you have a "just claim" to other people's money, time and energy. If the question is too difficult for you let me know, I am sure I can dumb it down even more for you.
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    So you didn't understand anything said. Got it.



    Dictionary definition of "right": something to which one has a just claim (Merriam Webster)

    Do explain how you have a "just claim" to other people's money, time and energy. If the question is too difficult for you let me know, I am sure I can dumb it down even more for you.
    Do people have a right to legal representation?

    How do they have a just claim to a lawyer's money, time and energy?
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  13. #73
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Do people have a right to legal representation?
    No. It's a service, not a right. The government recognizes the necessity of that service, and made provisions for people to receive that service even if they can't afford it.

    How do they have a just claim to a lawyer's money, time and energy?
    They don't. No lawyer is forced to represent anyone, and those who voluntarily choose to do so are compensated for it.
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  14. #74
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    This argument about a right to legal representation breaks down once its invested further. The right to legal representation is conditional in that it only applies once certain conditions are met and thus its a right afforded to you. So for example if public schools are a right is it conditional or can i demand by 6 months old baby a seat in a classroom because its the babies right to be educated?
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  15. #75
    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    No. It's a service, not a right. The government recognizes the necessity of that service, and made provisions for people to receive that service even if they can't afford it.



    They don't. No lawyer is forced to represent anyone, and those who voluntarily choose to do so are compensated for it.
    Well that's wrong since the Constitution explicitly recognises a right to legal counsel, might want to read past the 2nd Amendment sometime.

    Your explanation doesn't really prove what you're trying to say either. If all citizens are rightfully entitled to/can justly claim the use of a service regardless of ability to pay, then in what sense is it not a right? I mean it fulfills all the criteria of a right which you kindly provided so what exactly are you arguing?
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    Registered User sandaltan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BFast55 View Post
    Why is the elimination of rights always the left's answer?
    since when is private education a right lol wat?
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  17. #77
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    They don't. No lawyer is forced to represent anyone, and those who voluntarily choose to do so are compensated for it.
    that's not even true

    lawyers are literally forced to represent people involuntarily all the time

    you dont know what youre talking about
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    Registered User isingmodel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post

    you dont know what youre talking about

    Pretty par the course for Sy
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Pretty par the course for Sy
    i remember arguing with her about the social contract of government and she was like "i never signed the agreement"

    she was literally thinking of it like a lease agreement

    i had to calmly explain to her that she was agreeing to the social contract of government by living here, driving on the roads, benefiting from infrastructure, using the internet, using the various protections afforded etc, and that she could opt out by moving somewhere else

    this is why education is important. guarantee she's never read locke, hobbes, voltaire, rousseau, etc. she's just fixated on the dictionary definition of "right"
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    i remember arguing with her about the social contract of government and she was like "i never signed the agreement"

    she was literally thinking of it like a lease agreement

    i had to calmly explain to her that she was agreeing to the social contract of government by living here, driving on the roads, benefiting from infrastructure, using the internet, using the various protections afforded etc, and that she could opt out by moving somewhere else

    this is why education is important. guarantee she's never read locke, hobbes, voltaire, rousseau, etc. she's just fixated on the dictionary definition of "right"
    Nope. Can't sign a contract ur born into. Ur forced to use the roads. Minors cannot consent to contracts btw. federal govt is basically a giant mafia. ur taxes are protection money...
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    Nope. Can't sign a contract ur born into. Ur forced to use the roads. Minors cannot consent to contracts btw. federal govt is basically a giant mafia. ur taxes are protection money...
    wincey honestly i have no idea what youre talking about here

    the social contract of government is not like the pen-and-paper contracts youre talking about here

    you are agreeing to the social contract of government by living wherever you live

    if you want to opt out of the social K, then move
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    that's not even true

    lawyers are literally forced to represent people involuntarily all the time

    you dont know what youre talking about
    LOL the law does not force anybody to do work for anyone, that has a name, it's called "slavery" and it's outlawed in our country.

    The American Bar Association, which is a VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATION, has a rule that if you are a member you must do at least 50 hours of pro bono work. That's the extent of the "obligation".

    So before telling others they don't know what they are talking about, you may want to take your own suggestions, folks.
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    education, like military, police, roads and healthcare, should be rights of citizenship, not privileges of the wealthy.

    if you outlaw all private education, politicians would be forced to send their sh*tty kids to the same schools as everyone else

    bet your ass theyd fund them and make sure theyre good in that case

    in b4 maga brahs have "thoughts" on this
    Would they though? Their kids don't actually need an education to get anywhere in life like everyone else. They could be an actual retard and get placed in a cozy gig making lots of money.
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    i remember arguing with her about the social contract of government and she was like "i never signed the agreement"

    she was literally thinking of it like a lease agreement
    Nope, I was talking to you like I would talk to a 5 year old, which was the level of intelligence you were demonstrating.

    this is why education is important. guarantee she's never read locke, hobbes, voltaire, rousseau, etc. she's just fixated on the dictionary definition of "right"
    Funny how you have not offered any counterargument other than "you don't know what you are talking about". Why could that be.... ??? Because you have no argument? One wonders...

    I would have discussed the different categories of rights gladly with somebody a bit smarter than yourself. Especially the difference between contractual rights and natural rights, which is exactly what this discussion is about.
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    LOL the law does not force anybody to do work for anyone, that has a name, it's called "slavery" and it's outlawed in our country.

    The American Bar Association, which is a VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATION, has a rule that if you are a member you must do at least 50 hours of pro bono work. That's the extent of the "obligation".

    So before telling others they don't know what they are talking about, you may want to take your own suggestions, folks.
    Are you going to respond to the point that the Constitution which you have never read literally details a right to legal counsel?
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    LOL the law does not force anybody to do work for anyone, that has a name, it's called "slavery" and it's outlawed in our country.

    The American Bar Association, which is a VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATION, has a rule that if you are a member you must do at least 50 hours of pro bono work. That's the extent of the "obligation".

    So before telling others they don't know what they are talking about, you may want to take your own suggestions, folks.
    thanks sy, i love it when non-lawyer lay people explain to licensed attorneys how their job works

    the courts do, in fact, regularly appoint attorneys to work for defendants, against their will. nobody cares what the ABA says. it has no authority over licensed attorneys.

    the RIGHT to an attorney is enshrined in the SIXTH AMENDMENT TO THE US CONSTITUTION. the state bars where attorneys are licensed enforce this right, not the ABA. if youre a defendant in a criminal case, the court WILL appoint you an attorney as a RIGHT, even if the attorney doesnt want to do the job, and even if the defendant cant pay. the attorney does not have the right to withdraw, and if they dont do the work they'll face suspension, fines and/or disbarment. See Gideon v. Wainwright (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html) and maybe try reading the 6th amendment: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...ixth_amendment

    "The right of an indigent defendant in a criminal trial to have the assistance of counsel is a fundamental right and essential to a fair trial" (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html)

    once again, you have absolutely zero clue what youre talking about

    LOL
    Last edited by sandaltan; 12-05-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    wincey honestly i have no idea what youre talking about here

    the social contract of government is not like the pen-and-paper contracts youre talking about here

    you are agreeing to the social contract of government by living wherever you live

    if you want to opt out of the social K, then move
    how was I supposed to move as a kid? and where can i move to that isn't claimed land

    virtually all viable farming land on this earth is claimed by a govt

    ur required by law to pay taxes (protection money) or they throw u in jail...u cannot opt out

    I'm not against taxes, but let's call a spade a spade. There is an implied threat of force behind the police and military. If you do not pay them, they will kill you or throw you in jail.
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    how was I supposed to move as a kid? and where can i move to that isn't claimed land

    virtually all viable farming land on this earth is claimed by a govt

    ur required by law to pay taxes (protection money) or they throw u in jail...u cannot opt out

    I'm not against taxes, but let's call a spade a spade. There is an implied threat of force behind the police and military. If you do not pay them, they will kill you or throw you in jail.
    wincey, you dont get taxed when youre a kid either. when you were 7, how much tax were you required by law to pay?

    none.

    when youre an adult, if you dont like the taxes or system of gov, then move somewhere where the gov better suits your views - or try.

    youre right though, our world is governed virtually everywhere. you cant really opt out completely. that is true. thats just the way things are. but you can get pretty darn close i think.
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    thanks sy, i love it when non-lawyer lay people explain to licensed attorneys how their job works

    the courts do, in fact, regularly appoint attorneys to work for defendants, against their will. nobody cares what the ABA says. it has no authority over licensed attorneys.

    the RIGHT to an attorney is enshrined in the SIXTH AMENDMENT TO THE US CONSTITUTION. the state bars where attorneys are licensed enforce this right, not the ABA. if youre a defendant in a criminal case, the court WILL appoint you an attorney as a RIGHT, even if the attorney doesnt want to do the job, and even if the defendant cant pay. the attorney does not have the right to withdraw, and if they dont do the work they'll face suspension, fines and/or disbarment. See Gideon v. Wainwright (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html) and maybe try reading the 6th amendment: https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...ixth_amendment

    "The right of a defendant in a criminal trial to have the assistance of counsel is a fundamental right and essential to a fair trial" (https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supre...t/372/335.html)

    once again, you have absolutely zero clue what youre talking about
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    wincey, you dont get taxed when youre a kid either. when you were 7, how much tax were you required by law to pay?

    none.

    when youre an adult, if you dont like the taxes or system of gov, then move somewhere where the gov better suits your views - or try.

    youre right though, our world is governed virtually everywhere. you cant really opt out completely. that is true. thats just the way things are. but you can get pretty darn close i think.
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