has anyone recomped while having evidence of building muscle?

[peterm28]

I am curious if anyone has a PROVABLE story of recomping (such as going from 18% to 12% bodyfat) while demonstrably building lean muscle mass, for example lifting heavier (demonstrably - actual, higher numbers.) if so, what was your program? what is your evidence that you both lost fat and gained muscle? (rather than also losing muscle, which is what the "expected" or "traditional" result would be.)

I am still struggling to see the theoretical reason I can't recomp by spending a long time at the gym on very high resistance (or, equivalently, moderate weight very high volume lifts, which also burn Calories) machines such as recumbent bicycle, elliptical, and stepper machine (like a stairmaster) or rower machine on very heavy resistance, for a long time in terms of minutes and effort (such as 60-75 minutes), followed by lifts, followed by going home and actually eating enough protein and calories to rebuild for the next 24 hours, so that even though you start the workout by burning off a lot of Calories (hopefully from fat), after the workout the body gets enough nutrition to rebuild stronger, and you're using the muscles (lifting heavy) so it knows it has to keep them.

Has anyone done it? Or is this not going to happen? (I am currently in a second thirty-day challenge trying to do this. Maybe the result is that I will lose the muscle I already have, get weak and puny, and adding muscle - even a tiny amount of muscle - while recomping in this way is not possible. This is why I'm asking if anyone has provably, demonstrably done it.)

[air2fakie]

Are you documenting your own progress with provable and demonstrable evidence in the event of success?

[CommitmentRulz]

You claim you are doing it in your other long thread. In fact, you're so happy with your experiment, that you are about to embark on another 30 days. So, why start this thread?

[peterm28]

Are you documenting your own progress with provable and demonstrable evidence in the event of success?

Nope! First of all I don't really expect it to happen. I'm not sure I "believe" in recomping, and I think that I will instead end up with less muscle at the end of the current 30-day cut than I do today. (That's the expectation, that's the normal cutting story.)

Also because this timeframe is so short (just 30 days) even if I end up with a few grams more of muscle than at the beginning, this would not be something that could be shown. You can't really demonstrate/prove having a few hundred grams more muscle.

This is why, in order to know the theoretical basis, I'm asking if anyone has stronger provable demonstrable evidence. Something major. Have you heard of anything like that?

[air2fakie]

This is why, in order to know the theoretical basis, I'm asking if anyone has stronger provable demonstrable evidence. Something major. Have you heard of anything like that?

No, not at the level of going from 18% to 12% bf as you're describing. You can gain some muscle in a slight deficit, but you wouldn't be losing more than a few lbs over an extended period of time.

If you're currently running an experiment and not bothering to document your own results, I doubt anyone else will care enough to try to prove your hypothesis for you.

[Filmbuff81]

There’s studies out there showing you can build muscle in a deficit. It’s not optimal, but it’s certainly doable.

I’ve been the same weight for about 6 months and I’ve lost an appreciable amount of fat and built muscle in that timeframe.

[peterm28]

No, not at the level of going from 18% to 12% bf as you're describing. You can gain some muscle in a slight deficit, but you wouldn't be losing more than a few lbs over an extended period of time.

All right! Thanks.

If you're currently running an experiment and not bothering to document your own results, I doubt anyone else will care enough to try to prove your hypothesis for you.

fair, this is more just my personal experiment rather than trying to convince anyone. an experiment on just me is just n=1, it's not "scientific" even if it works, and wouldn't convince anyone of anything. However it's what I'm doing at the moment so I don't see why I shouldn't track what's happening and do research about whether it's possible or not.

[peterm28]

You claim you are doing it in your other long thread. In fact, you're so happy with your experiment, that you are about to embark on another 30 days. So, why start this thread?

great question! the reason for this thread is to know if anyone has any proven, ironclad, verifiable, demonstrable, 100% evidence that recomping this way is even possible?

That is what this thread asks for. Because having some ironclad evidence that is possible will make my work doing it a lot easier. Otherwise I'll still do it, but I'll just know that I'm just going to lose muscle while I do it.

[peterm28]

The reason I had enough faith in my cutting program (and I'm very happy with the first 30-day results, which you can see in my previous thread) using a ton of cardio/aerobic - more than an hour a day - is because I saw a ton of youtube videos with really fat chicks (talking about hundreds of thousands of extra calories on them) spending hours a day on the eliptical/treadmill/stairmaster to work it all off. You can see their before or after, just go on youtube and search transformation. They spent like 2 hours a day on cardio/aerobic.

So I know they can do it, and I know I have far less fat to work off than they do. I also reasoned that I'm a bit stronger (= more Calories/hour than they can do), so if they can do it this gives me a kind of proof that cardio can be used in this way, and I thought I could do it faster by jacking the machines up to the maximum resistance setting. I do all my cardio on the maximum resistance that the recumbent bike and elliptical offers, also the maximum resistance when I use the rower machine, and I am working my way up to doing the maximum level on the stepper machine (stairmaster), which I can only do for a few seconds at the moment. On those resistance machines I try to keep a high cadence as well. So I know I've gotta be burning off more Calories than the girls in the videos who are on that program. That gave me the theoretical basis for my first 30 day transformation, and I'm quite happy with the results.

[peterm28]

In the first few days you can see that I was asking some questions about this. (Such as high much cardio is too much cardio.)

Now I'm not sure, but I think one of the main reasons bodybuilders don't use much cardio/aerobic (instead they just cut Calories) is because having a lot of muscle gives you a pretty high resting metabolism, (RMR, resting metabolic rate/basal metabolic rate). so bodybuilders generally don't need to do a lot of/any cardio while on a cut. It may also interfere with their muscle retention, perhaps the body sacrifices muscles if they do "too much" cardio. (However, in the previous threads where I asked about this, people didn't seem to think it's a major concern.)

So as you can see I am just covering all my bases. What this thread is for is to know if anyone has any firm evidence that recomping is possible.

people thinking they're recomping could just be misinterpreting. If I lose some muscle but a lot of fat, lots of stuff might seem easier (bodyweight exercises etc, pullups might seem way easier, etc), I might delude myself into thinking I'm stronger even though it's not true.

hence the request to see if anyone has any actual firm evidence that it's possible. For example how does Filmbuff81 know "I’ve been the same weight for about 6 months and I’ve lost an appreciable amount of fat and built muscle in that timeframe". How do they know that they lost fat and built muscle?

[peterm28]

There’s studies out there showing you can build muscle in a deficit. It’s not optimal, but it’s certainly doable.

I’ve been the same weight for about 6 months and I’ve lost an appreciable amount of fat and built muscle in that timeframe.

According to the studies what kind of numbers are possible?

How do you know that you built muscle in this timeframe?

[Filmbuff81]

According to the studies what kind of numbers are possible?

How do you know that you built muscle in this timeframe?

I just quickly scanned your other thread.

Your comparison of cardio to high volume or moderate rep range weightlifting is not accurate in any sense btw.

Females have less muscle mass, so their “transformations” will look way different compared to a male.

Women in general are built for endurance and this is evidenced in weight training too. So the training effect for them will be very different to you.

And even they would benefit from heavier weights.

But for someone completely Untrained, sure you can build muscle from some forms of cardio.

You will clearly not get the same effect.

MAYBE if you ate enough protein. But I’m guessing you are not.

As for the studies I don’t recall off the top of my head. Just google them and I’m sure you can find them.

Is it optimal? No. But it’s certainly doable.

I take photos all the time, measurements every so often, and my lifts continue to rise.

So the odds I’m not building muscle are incredibly low.

You’re so small in your photos if you simply at at maintenance or a TINY surplus while eating enough protein, you’d probably gain a good amount of muscle.

Edit: I don’t mean small in a derogatory way.

Be whatever size you want to be, but your experiment is counterintuitive and counterproductive to every single method of attempting to gain muscle and lose fat.

[peterm28]

Hi Filmbuff81, thanks for your thoughts.

Your comparison of cardio to high volume or moderate rep range weightlifting is not accurate in any sense btw.

The source of this comparison was the factoid that many bodybuilders engage in this activity in the final days leading up to a show. I was trying to figure out why. (why do they do high volume moderate weight in the final days?)

That could be a separate thread but my conclusion is that this helps them get a bit drier (more cut). Because if you push a moderate weight (nowhere near your 1 max) for many reps, that ends up burning a lot of Calories due to the physics involved. i.e. there is a physical minimum Calorie (watt-hour) cost to moving weight at high volume, multiplied by the inefficiency of the body.

For example it is physically impossible for any person or machine to lift 50 kg for 1 meter 100 times using less than ___ calories (___ watt-hours). I don't have the calculation but it's not insubstantial, and this physical minimum needs to be multiplied by the body's inefficiency. There is no way to do it without spending those Calories, whatever they are.

Females have less muscle mass, so their “transformations” will look way different compared to a male.

Yes that is true but don't you agree that their fat also has 3500 Calories to the pound? So when they're doing something to get rid of the fat, we can learn from it. Currently I'm trying to drastically cut my fat.

Additionally, I should note that I saw transformation videos with men, as well. You can see a lot of these videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...transformation

(this is a search).

Note in particular this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hviX47WTjIk

"Running Everyday For 6 Months (Weight Loss Time Lapse)".

This guy started off at 238 lbs/107.95 kg (which you can see right at the start of the video) and looks to me like 30%-40% bodyfat -- hard to tell the exact percentage at such high levels, especially because it hides any muscle, but he didn't look too strong.

At 7:38 into the video he shows the timelapse difference Month1, Month2, Month3, Month4, and Month7. He ended 191 lbs/86.1 kg. At 8:41 he shows what he thinks are the stats, which may not be accurate: he says 39.1 hours of running, 20,148 Calories burned, 48 lbs weight loss. But 20,148 Calories is only 5.75 lbs so either a vast amount of that 48 lbs is muscle weight, or he lost even more Calories than expected. (Because the machine didn't realize just how heavy he was.)

His weight loss is 8 lbs per month on his program. If he ran 39.1 hours in 180 days, that averages just 13.03 minutes per day. So these are some of the figures I'm looking at when I try to see the inspiration of what he did and apply it to myself. I can do quite a bit more.

By the way I think it's awful to run when you have a lot of bodyweight, because it's really bad for your knees to repeatedly hit them full force (recumbent bicycle or elliptical would have been better I think). You can see at the end of that video he says he is kind of plateauing or putting on weight again, which makes sense if his body is adjusting by ditching a lot of muscle weight.

So I want to make my program quite a bit different from his. There is also a video I can't find right now with a woman who made a massive change over a longer period. (It included getting some implants). I remember in that video she mentioned the cardio she did, just the sheer number of hours and amount of work.

Women in general are built for endurance ... So the training effect for them will be very different to you.

That is probably true. It might be harder for me to do cardio for an hour than it is for them. (I might be pushing harder to have the same result.)

MAYBE if you ate enough protein. But I’m guessing you are not.

I'm eating a ton of protein, at least 100 grams just from shakes, plus protein from real food, too.

I take photos all the time, measurements every so often, and my lifts continue to rise.

all right, congrats. teach me how, haha.

You’re so small in your photos if you simply at at maintenance or a TINY surplus while eating enough protein, you’d probably gain a good amount of muscle.

Edit: I don’t mean small in a derogatory way.

Be whatever size you want to be, but your experiment is counterintuitive and counterproductive to every single method of attempting to gain muscle and lose fat.

No offense taken, I agree I'm getting tinier and tinier. Actually that is a goal. I wish to fit into some super tight clothing, and I like the reactions that get when people see my new, toned face.

So my goal is to cut heavily for the next 30-45 days and see where it gets me. I am not sure what percentage bodyfat I can hit. Obviously at some point sub-10% would be amazing.

I think the youtube transformation videos are good inspiration for what is possible. Some of them are done in a very short timeframe but with a lot of time investment each day. Obviously, I'm doing the same thing. We'll see the results. Thanks for reading.

[Filmbuff81]

If your goal is to be tinier why bring up bodybuilders?

They are doing higher volume with lighter weights to MAINTAIN muscle at the end of a contest prep. Not for the calorie burn.

They are trying to avoid injury, water retention, inflammation, etc.

With your hypothetical scenario if said bodybuilder only did cardio instead they would waste away.

It has nothing to do with calories burned, it’s all about survival.

As for the video of that guy. He is now just skinny fat.

If for 6 months he had pushed weight training hard and eaten properly and done minimal cardio I’d guarantee he’d look a million times more muscular.

If you want to be little go for it, but your theories are majorly off base.

You say teach you, but I think you’re more interested in confirming your theory to be accurate.

Cardio at the max resistance is still cardio. It’s not going to build any appreciable muscle outside of someone completely obese or untrained.

You’re essentially working in the insane endurance zone.

You have to actually lift enough weight to cause an adaptation.

Those bodybuilder doing “light” weight are still lifting relatively heavy with enough intensity and volume to ensure they keep their muscle.

[peterm28]

If your goal is to be tinier why bring up bodybuilders?...

I read your reply. Basically, my goal is to lower my bodyfat percentage to as close to 10% (or sub-10%) as I can get it, without losing that much muscle, and to do it within 30-45 days if possible. (Obviously I might not get to such an ambitious goal so quickly.) So the reason I thought of Bodybuilders even though I'm getting tiny not big is because during that final push (final few days before contest) they are trying to get close to 3%-7% so it makes sense to pay attention to what they're doing... (Even though I'm just trying to get to barely sub 10% if possible.)

My approach is vast amounts of high-resistance training and in the first 30-day challenge I saw a huge difference. The amount of fat that disappeared is undeniable. (Very visible with a tight pair of pants I tried on.) Now I am doing it again (second 30-day challenge) and I want to know whether adding muscle during this cut is really a provably viable possibility. Maybe not.

I agree with what you said about the runner. However, you have to agree that he shed tons of fat during the first half of the video, so it's just a demonstration that it is possible. Yes, he would look a ton better if he focused much more on building muscle, especially in the second half. I am trying to come up with whether I can do both during this specific 30-day to 45-day cut, and how to go about it.

[air2fakie]

I am trying to come up with whether I can do both during this specific 30-day to 45-day cut, and how to go about it.

Why is everything you do in 30 day timeframes? Even if you weren't cutting there's only so much muscle you can build in such a short time period, which gets harder in a deficit.

Why not just get on a real program and stop trying to see if you're the unicorn of muscle building during a cut in a 30-day period? What's the point of all this?

[rsid97]

I read your reply. Basically, my goal is to lower my bodyfat percentage to as close to 10% (or sub-10%) as I can get it, without losing that much muscle, and to do it within 30-45 days if possible. (Obviously I might not get to such an ambitious goal so quickly.) So the reason I thought of Bodybuilders even though I'm getting tiny not big is because during that final push (final few days before contest) they are trying to get close to 3%-7% so it makes sense to pay attention to what they're doing... (Even though I'm just trying to get to barely sub 10% if possible.)

My approach is vast amounts of high-resistance training and in the first 30-day challenge I saw a huge difference.

Your goal, approach and theories are mismatched. Find me someone that has reached sub 10% bodyfat in 30 days with no form of resistance training.

You're saying you observe bodybuilders but you're missing the fact that part of the reason why they are able to get to sub 10% body fat is because of the muscle mass they're carrying. Bare in mind that your bodyfat *percentage* is a *percentage* of your total bodyweight. 30 days of 'high-resistance training" is neither a 'vast amount' nor likely to be 'high-resistance' given the amount of strength that one can expect to build in that time frame when on a 1100 calorie deficit and most likely under dosing on protein intake (maybe it is, relative to the rest of your training, but not within the context of getting down to sub 10% bodyfat). That level of conditioning is going to take years of training, not a simple 30 day challenge.

[OldFartTom]

Rome was built in 30 days... and everything worthwhile in life was done as part of a short challenge transformation. Dedicated hard work long term and an attention span >30 days are vastly over rated, that's just loser talk right there.

So why are we questioning why OP wants to build muscle while dropping to <10% body fat in a 30 day period. Seems reasonable. The whole world is just one big Instagram opportunity after all.

[peterm28]

I have the time and motivation now. The program I selected is to try to massively cut (more than an hour of what I call aerobic/cardio, but on max resistance) while trying to retain muscle through also lifting after the cardio (and especially lifting heavy the day after any rest/cheat day) and ensuring that I eat sufficient protein and Calories. So far the program is working for me, and I am really satisfied with the results.

Your goal, approach and theories are mismatched. Find me someone that has reached sub 10% bodyfat in 30 days with no form of resistance training.

I am a bit confused by why you write "no form of resistance training". Doesn't elliptical on the max resistance or recumbent bike on the max resistance or rowing machine on the max resistance, count as resistance training? I don't run on a treadmill at all.

[peterm28]

You're saying you observe bodybuilders but you're missing the fact that part of the reason why they are able to get to sub 10% body fat is because of the muscle mass they're carrying.

Yes this is true! I started to type this up but left it off of my previous comment:

I think one of the main reasons bodybuilders don't use much cardio/aerobic (instead they just cut Calories) is because having a lot of muscle gives you a pretty high resting metabolism, (RMR, resting metabolic rate/basal metabolic rate). so bodybuilders generally don't need to do a lot of/any cardio while on a cut. It may also interfere with their muscle retention, perhaps the body sacrifices muscles if they do "too much" cardio. (However, in the previous threads where I asked about this, people didn't seem to think it's a major concern.)

So for sure bulking first gives more muscles that then let people cut easily with diet alone. I guess the difference is that I am going for a certain look as quickly as I can. I would then bulk (lean gain) afterward, and then repeat. So in a sense I think that the high-resistance aerobic/cardio I'm doing can make up for some of the RMR resting Calories that I'm not using up due to not having as much muscle.

In the forums I heard some people are able to maintain around 10% natty all the time (regardless of cut or bulk) so my goal is to get there first and then do the lean bulk.

This is the program I chose, anyway.

[peterm28]

Why is everything you do in 30 day timeframes? Even if you weren't cutting there's only so much muscle you can build in such a short time period, which gets harder in a deficit.

Why not just get on a real program and stop trying to see if you're the unicorn of muscle building during a cut in a 30-day period? What's the point of all this?

I don't think I'll build any muscle during these 30-45 days. In fact I heard that I would lose 1 lb of muscle for each 5 lbs of fat that I lose. The point is just to get to the physique that I want, which is reaching as close to 10% as I can.

It's not necessarily reasonable to reach 10% (might not even get close). We'll just have to see the results.

[peterm28]

most likely under dosing on protein intake (maybe it is, relative to the rest of your training, but not within the context of getting down to sub 10% bodyfat). That level of conditioning is going to take years of training, not a simple 30 day challenge.

We'll see. I have the time, and we'll see what happens. I posted the results of my first 30 days. Now it's the second thirty-day challenge. We'll see. For protein, I take at least 100 grams of just protein shake: 6 tablespoons twice a day (so total of 12 tblsp), where the listed values for 3 tablespoons are: 113 Cal, 26g protein, 1.1 carb, and include 1.5 g of creatine. So in total throughout the day I take 104 grams of the protein from the shakes (so these total 452 Cal and include 6g of the creatine). Besides this I eat real food (stuff like oatmeal, chicken, lots of green vegetables, spinach, eggs, beef, brccoli, etc. But not too much of these. I cut out sweets except when I cheat a bit.) I should definitely be getting enough protein. In the previous 30-day challenge I went through 2000 grams (two 1 kg bags) of the protein powder. That is a lot of protein. I am sure I am getting enough. However, I am also eating real food and trying to work off the excess.

This thread is basically about whether if I continue to lift, there is any evidence that I can also make muscle gain during this cut. (Rather than, as normally expected, losing muscle during the cut.)

Thanks for reading and I am open to correcting any misconceptions you think I have. I'm quite open about what I'm doing. We'll see what happens.

[Xpiro]

Yeah, been doing it for a few years and never bulked/cut. I don’t know my bf % but it is kinda obvious to me and my friends/fam that it’s working so you’ll just have to take my word for it lol. Strength gains haven’t been fantastic, I stall a lot and tend to go back and forth (admittedly I rarely deload and get a lot of injuries so) but I somehow still manage to keep gaining mass and losing fat. I’ve been within 5 lbs of the same weight for the last 3 years. I don’t really “do” cardio, I just live in the city and walk really really fast for a few miles per day on average and eat an average of what I’ve found my maintenance calories to be. Possibly a bit more, even, because I’ve transitioned from eating maintenance across the board to eating in a surplus on training days and a deficit on rest days... I lift 4 days/wk so it’s technically a weekly surplus I guess.

Macros are usually like 40c/40p/20f, 50c/30p/20f, give or take... I’m not crazy strict but I like to keep them around there. I eat a lot more protein than what is usually suggested, over 1.5x total bodyweight. Is it necessary? No clue, but it doesn’t hurt.

In the years that I’ve recomped, I’ve run F5 Upper/Lower and Viking’s Upper/Lower. That’s about it.

Edit: ok I’ll bite, best proof I’ve got is pics.

https://ibb.co/NrCc6M8
https://ibb.co/hHgr31P

July 2018 to last week

[rsid97]

I am a bit confused by why you write "no form of resistance training". Doesn't elliptical on the max resistance or recumbent bike on the max resistance or rowing machine on the max resistance, count as resistance training? I don't run on a treadmill at all.

I meant that in the typical sense of what is considered resistance training in the context of physical development, i.e -some form of weight training, not doing cardio with a resistance setting on a machine. Riding a bike with a resistance setting is not giving you the same sort of muscular growth stimulus that would be obtained from a few hard sets of squats and deadlifts.

So for sure bulking first gives more muscles that then let people cut easily with diet alone. I guess the difference is that I am going for a certain look as quickly as I can. I would then bulk (lean gain) afterward, and then repeat. So in a sense I think that the high-resistance aerobic/cardio I'm doing can make up for some of the RMR resting Calories that I'm not using up due to not having as much muscle.

In the forums I heard some people are able to maintain around 10% natty all the time (regardless of cut or bulk) so my goal is to get there first and then do the lean bulk.

This is the program I chose, anyway.

If the look you're going for resembles Ben Affleck in the machinest, go for it. If the look you're going for is true 10% bodyfat, then well yeah, you're not doing yourself any favors currently. You're overvaluing you're cardio and under valuing the building muscle via weight training portion of things.

I'm not saying there aren't naturals who get down to 10%, I'm saying they're using proper training (weights+cardio), adequate volumes, progressive overload and appropriate diet over years to get there.

For protein, I take at least 100 grams of just protein shake: 6 tablespoons twice a day (so total of 12 tblsp), where the listed values for 3 tablespoons are: 113 Cal, 26g protein

This thread is basically about whether if I continue to lift, there is any evidence that I can also make muscle gain during this cut. (Rather than, as normally expected, losing muscle during the cut.)

Given that (by the sound of things) you're not tracking your overall protein intake, its not exactly accurate to say you're getting sufficient amounts of protein on a daily basis (not saying its impossible). Generally I would aim to go a little higher on protein during a cut, atleast 1.2g per lb of bodyweight. In your previous thread you said you ended up around 179lbs, so you're looking at 115g of protein to get in outside of your shakes.

In summary, I'm not saying you can't gain muscle on a cut. It has been shown in studies (most often in untrained or particularly overweight people). But in any case, the amount of muscle that you can gain in such a small time frame really isn't going to be much, especially under your conditions.

[Filmbuff81]

One more time with feeling.

Your cardio machine is NOT RESISTANCE TRAINING.

Even on MAX RESISTANCE, the RESISTANCE IS SO MINMAL, it will NOT introduce a hypertrophic effect.

ESPECIALLY IN A DEFICIT.

You have to lift weights above a certain threshold to even achieve the desired effect.

There is zero logic to your theory, which is only a theory in your head.

No coach or expert worth their salt would agree with you on this crazy journey.

And sure his fat loss was impressive, but he could have achieved that without running every day.

It’s basically biggest loser style stuff.

[Filmbuff81]

Rome was built in 30 days... and everything worthwhile in life was done as part of a short challenge transformation. Dedicated hard work long term and an attention span >30 days are vastly over rated, that's just loser talk right there.

So why are we questioning why OP wants to build muscle while dropping to <10% body fat in a 30 day period. Seems reasonable. The whole world is just one big Instagram opportunity after all.

Lol this made my night

[air2fakie]

The program I selected is to try to massively cut (more than an hour of what I call aerobic/cardio, but on max resistance) ... Doesn't elliptical on the max resistance or recumbent bike on the max resistance or rowing machine on the max resistance, count as resistance training?

What you call "cardio" is actually cardio, even on max resistance - which is just a button. Selecting the highest level on the elliptical or rowing machine doesn't turn them into heavy (or light) squats or barbell rows.

... after any rest/cheat day ...

What exactly is a "cheat day" for your experiment and how many cheat days are you including in the 30-day time period? Do you "cheat" on every day you don't work out?

[24788]

I am myself right now. I've lost 25 pounds or so far while putting on some muscle (minimal).

I'm building strength (definitely stronger) and putting on some muscle at the same time (slightly larger). I've gone from 20/25 with dumbbells to 30 and will eventually hit 35 for dumbbell for each arm alone.

This is over 6-12 months though.

I'm just more or so lifting to lose weight and gain more strength and such. Trying to put on muscle over time while trying to watch my portion control.

This isn't over 1-2 month time frame though.

-----

I'm not gaining size though that fast. It's gradual over that 6-12 month time frame.

[Animal2692]

I am curious if anyone has a PROVABLE story of recomping (such as going from 18% to 12% bodyfat) while demonstrably building lean muscle mass, for example lifting heavier (demonstrably - actual, higher numbers.) if so, what was your program? what is your evidence that you both lost fat and gained muscle? (rather than also losing muscle, which is what the "expected" or "traditional" result would be.)

I am still struggling to see the theoretical reason I can't recomp by spending a long time at the gym on very high resistance (or, equivalently, moderate weight very high volume lifts, which also burn Calories) machines such as recumbent bicycle, elliptical, and stepper machine (like a stairmaster) or rower machine on very heavy resistance, for a long time in terms of minutes and effort (such as 60-75 minutes), followed by lifts, followed by going home and actually eating enough protein and calories to rebuild for the next 24 hours, so that even though you start the workout by burning off a lot of Calories (hopefully from fat), after the workout the body gets enough nutrition to rebuild stronger, and you're using the muscles (lifting heavy) so it knows it has to keep them.

Has anyone done it? Or is this not going to happen? (I am currently in a second thirty-day challenge trying to do this. Maybe the result is that I will lose the muscle I already have, get weak and puny, and adding muscle - even a tiny amount of muscle - while recomping in this way is not possible. This is why I'm asking if anyone has provably, demonstrably done it.)

You lose fat from being in a calorie deficit, not directly by how many calories you burn because if you eat all those calories back, you haven't done anything. Also, those cardio machines aren't resistance training and don't stimulate protein synthesis for muscle growth. To get to 10% bodyfat, what you'd have to do is be in a calorie deficit of 1000 to lose 2lbs a week, track your dietary protein so that you get at least 1g/lb, and lift heavy still focusing on progressive overload. If you don't have much muscle, you will gain some muscle as you lose fat. It's going to take longer than 30 days depending on what your starting bodyfat is though. Find some bodyfat pictures on Google, see where you're at, and go for the 10% one.

I've been going from 18% to 8% bodyfat for the past 6 weeks and still going. Getting stronger eating 1300 calories a day but I make sure I get in enough protein and train hard close to failure. Lost 14lbs so far. Every meal will have to be protein-centric. Especially when cutting. Every single day you must count your calories and monitor protein intake.

[TolerantLactose]

I am still struggling to see the theoretical reason I can't recomp by spending a long time at the gym on very high resistance (or, equivalently, moderate weight very high volume lifts, which also burn Calories) machines such as recumbent bicycle, elliptical, and stepper machine (like a stairmaster) or rower machine on very heavy resistance, for a long time in terms of minutes and effort (such as 60-75 minutes)

It's not a hard and fast rule but if you count by time and/or distance and not sets and reps, you're in cardio country.

Another quality thread, OP.