Benefits of fast carbs PWO ?

[wariorpolni]

Hello, can i just ask something. I train 3x per week fullbody training, after my training i have classic whey protein and like 1-2 hours after that meal with protein and complex carbs (something like rice+meat+some vegetables). My main goal is to build muscle and i heard that its benefical to have some fast acting carbs right after workout, for example dextrose + protein post workout. As i said, my main goal is to build muscle, will it be really more benefical to have some fast acting carbs with my protein PWO, than just protein alone post workout ? Thanks

[SuffolkPunch]

It has been shown that carbs can improve workout performance - but whether you need to eat them close to the workout and use fast digesting sources is another matter.

Most people who aren't dieting hard (you say you are building muscle) probably already have close to topped out glycogen supplies - so it would likely have no additional effect IMO.

[MrCarrot]

I tend to have some fast acting carbs in the evening rather than after workout. So for me, I eat my carbs when I want to eat them, rather than feeling like I must time them specifically. What SuffolkPunch said makes sense, if you're cutting hard then maybe they'd be useful straight after to replenish Glycogen, but if you're in a surplus it probably doesn't matter that much.

[Mrpb]

My main goal is to build muscle and i heard that its benefical to have some fast acting carbs right after workout, for example dextrose + protein post workout. As i said, my main goal is to build muscle, will it be really more benefical to have some fast acting carbs with my protein PWO, than just protein alone post workout ? Thanks

It's utter nonsense.

[rtpmarine]

The idea is that fast-acting carbs like dextrose spike insulin which amplifies the mTOR phosphorylation being caused by mechanical stress. In my personal experience there is some truth to the idea, although I can't explain why studies on it are inconsistent. I think you have to use the technique sparingly or else your body adapts and starts expecting carbs after every workout.

OP -- google "carb backloading" as a starting point. The theory all makes good sense to me, but real-world results are mixed. One definite downside is that if you workout late in the evening, insulin won't have time to level you back out before you go to sleep. This could interfere with your sleep cycle, in particular with respect to growth hormone. Things like this just require a lot of trial and error to decide what works for you and what doesn't.

[CommitmentRulz]

... i heard that its benefical to have some fast acting carbs right after workout, for example dextrose + protein post workout. As i said, my main goal is to build muscle, will it be really more benefical to have some fast acting carbs with my protein PWO, than just protein alone post workout ?

OP, scientific study says there's nothing to it. I heard the world was flat and man didn't really land on the moon...

[AdamWW]

The idea is that fast-acting carbs like dextrose spike insulin which amplifies the mTOR phosphorylation being caused by mechanical stress. In my personal experience there is some truth to the idea, although I can't explain why studies on it are inconsistent.

Just curious how you would actually know something spiked your insulin and amplified mTOR phosphorylation...

[rtpmarine]

Just curious how you would actually know something spiked your insulin and amplified mTOR phosphorylation...

It could totally be mind games.

I think that recovery is better with post-workout carbs but there are a lot of variables. I will say that I feel the recovery effect the most following light weight / high rep style workouts. It’s very distinct from doing the same type of workout after loading up on carbs and water. When I do it that way, I get more pumped up but stay sore for longer.

[AdamWW]

It could totally be mind games.

I think that recovery is better with post-workout carbs but there are a lot of variables. I will say that I feel the recovery effect the most following light weight / high rep style workouts. It’s very distinct from doing the same type of workout after loading up on carbs and water. When I do it that way, I get more pumped up but stay sore for longer.

Interesting.

I also enjoy PWO carbs, and anecdotally my version of 'better recovery' as a result seems to come from the kind of 'calming' effect carbs can give me after a session. Following training it is pretty clear that cortisol and overall CNS stress is elevated, and having carbs afterwards seems to get me back into that parasympathetic state which helps me relax and recover better.

[John Prophet]

Hello, can i just ask something. I train 3x per week fullbody training, after my training i have classic whey protein and like 1-2 hours after that meal with protein and complex carbs (something like rice+meat+some vegetables). My main goal is to build muscle and i heard that its benefical to have some fast acting carbs right after workout, for example dextrose + protein post workout. As i said, my main goal is to build muscle, will it be really more benefical to have some fast acting carbs with my protein PWO, than just protein alone post workout ? Thanks

you are referring to the famous/infamous "anabolic window". This is one of those things where there is probably something to it but it was so overstated for years that now there is a huge backlash against the idea lol. AFAIK there r studies suggesting that there is a certain window where carbs etc after a workout can enhance recovery. Folks can believe what they want I guess...lifes too short to argue about it


That being said, some of the answer will depend on what else u eat during the day. for instance, if u ate some slow digesting protein like meat a couple hours before the workout....then there will be amino acids working thru the system already. Same for carbs.

Also, if you have a preworkout or during workout drink or whatever, then obviously it sort of negates the need to IMMEDIATELY need carbs post workout. For instance I drink an ABB energy drink during my workouts that has like 23 grams of carbs. So do I really need to stress out about post workout carbs? not really


Now on the other hand what if its been several hours since you've eaten and then u workout? In that case id say there would be a benefit to going ahead and getting some food in directly after the workout.

and like I said, this is one of those things where people like to have extreme opinions on this or that side of the subject. cest la vie. You gotta find what works for you and whats practical

IMo the best idea is to be eating every few hours all day anyway and then the worry about exact timing sort of becomes pretty irrelevant

[Mrpb]

Here's a scientific answer to your question OP:

Carbohydrates consumed peri-workout is often a strategy utilized by athletes to improve performance in high intensity exercises. Complete glycogen resynthesis can be achieved within 24 hours following a glycogen depleting training bout if sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed [83]. However, only 24–40% of muscle glycogen is depleted following resistance exercise [59,60]. Therefore, an amount of ≥3–5 g/kg carbohydrates per day would most likely be enough for glycogen resynthesis. This high daily carbohydrate intake likely also reduces the impact of pre-workout carbohydrate timing on exercise performance.

Consuming carbohydrates with protein post-workout is often claimed to have a an anabolic effect due to the secretion of insulin. Although insulin has been shown to have anabolic effects [84], at physiological levels its release has little impact on post-exercise anabolism [85]. Further, several studies have shown no further effects on muscle protein synthesis post-exercise when carbohydrates are combined with amino acids [86,87].

In addition to bodybuilders lacking the need to emphasize glycogen replenishment, protein enhances post workout MPS to maximal levels even without the addition of carbohydrate [86,87]. While there is certainly no harm in post-workout carbohydrate consumption, doing so is unlikely to enhance long term hypertrophy as discussed in prior reviews [1,88]. Therefore, it may be best to focus on consumption of adequate daily carbohydrate and base carbohydrate distribution around the workout on personal preference.

https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/7/7/154/htm

The idea is that fast-acting carbs like dextrose spike insulin which amplifies the mTOR phosphorylation being caused by mechanical stress. In my personal experience there is some truth to the idea, although I can't explain why studies on it are inconsistent.

The science is actually surprisingly consistent: there's no significant benefit to consuming fast acting carbs post workout if you're already consuming enough protein and carbs throughout the day.

And besides that, dextrose is devoid of micronutrients and fiber. Given that most people don't consume enough micronutrients and fiber, it's another reason to recommend against dextrose post workout.

[rtpmarine]

The science is actually surprisingly consistent: there's no significant benefit to consuming fast acting carbs post workout if you're already consuming enough protein and carbs throughout the day.

But this is exactly why the studies are flawed. They create some sort of daily consistency in order to create a scientific baseline. But human beings don't exhibit that baseline in real life. Nor should they.

My theory is that an unexpected spike in post-workout carbs will affect net protein balance, but the body quickly adapts to this by down-regulating future protein synthesis. If done consistently, the post-workout carbs become expected and then the body is back in balance. I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about this here, but pro bodybuilders inject insulin after workouts because they know that they can out-dose the adaptive response (i.e. increase dosing as necessary to keep the body from achieving balance). So yeah, if you expect daily post-workout carbs to have a long-term effect, you're gonna have a bad time. Of course the body is just going to adapt. What you have to do is figure out how to use it strategically as just one tool in your tool belt.

And besides that, dextrose is devoid of micronutrients and fiber. Given that most people don't consume enough micronutrients and fiber, it's another reason to recommend against dextrose post workout.

+1 -- nobody should be making a habit of this.

[Mrpb]

But this is exactly why the studies are flawed.

They may be flawed to test your theory. But they're perfectly adequate to answer OPs question.

[CommitmentRulz]

But this is exactly why the studies are flawed. They create some sort of daily consistency in order to create a scientific baseline. But human beings don't exhibit that baseline in real life. Nor should they.

But humans generally DO exhibit some consistency. What? Studies should only be done on starving people, or people who have randomly been starved from say 1-5 days, randomly? MOST people do eat in a fairly consistent manner and method in an ongoing basis. As a fact, you are the only poster I've ever seen on any forum I frequent that randomly tries to create some sort of random "fast" in an effort to somehow "optimize" your body to specifically avoid consistency. You're the outlier, not EVERYONE ELSE. ;-)

[AdamWW]

but humans generally do exhibit some consistency. What? Studies should only be done on starving people, or people who have randomly been starved from say 1-5 days, randomly? Most people do eat in a fairly consistent manner and method in an ongoing basis. As a fact, you are the only poster i've ever seen on any forum i frequent that randomly tries to create some sort of random "fast" in an effort to somehow "optimize" your body to specifically avoid consistency. You're the outlier, not everyone else. ;-)

this

[rtpmarine]

They may be flawed to test your theory. But they're perfectly adequate to answer OPs question.

Or maybe, just maybe, published research is not the only form of evidence that exists in the universe.

But humans generally DO exhibit some consistency. What? Studies should only be done on starving people, or people who have randomly been starved from say 1-5 days, randomly? MOST people do eat in a fairly consistent manner and method in an ongoing basis. As a fact, you are the only poster I've ever seen on any forum I frequent that randomly tries to create some sort of random "fast" in an effort to somehow "optimize" your body to specifically avoid consistency. You're the outlier, not EVERYONE ELSE. ;-)

Lmao most impressive ad hominem I've seen outside of the misc. What was that, two weeks ago? Are you gonna be okay?

[Mrpb]

I think you have to use the technique sparingly or else your body adapts and starts expecting carbs after every workout.

But of course that's pure speculation.

It seems that you really love speculating about remote possibilities without proper scientific support. In general that's OK but this is the wrong place to be doing so. OP is likely a beginner who wants to learn the right way to set up his diet so he can start gaining muscle. He's asking a simple straight forward question that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply. Speculation about remote possibilities is only likely to confuse him.

So here's my request to you: Please stop using these kind of threads for your speculative "theories".

If you want to continue speculating consider starting your own thread where you will no longer be confusing beginners who are looking for science based answers to their questions.

[rtpmarine]

It seems that you really love speculating about remote possibilities without proper scientific support. In general that's OK but this is the wrong place to be doing so. OP is likely a beginner who wants to learn the right way to set up his diet so he can start gaining muscle. He's asking a simple straight forward question that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply. Speculation about remote possibilities is only likely to confuse him.

TBH I find it insulting how you serially assume OP to be a newbie who is incapable of processing any thought more complex than "It's utter nonsense." Most people have enough brain power to absorb conflicting information and get to work googling things. I mean, even if you wanted to convey that post-workout carbs are utter nonsense, you should have at least included some explanation of why the idea took hold in the bodybuilding community and why it is wrong. But disregarding it with a wave of the hand does not help OP at all. It doesn't add anything to his understanding. The dismissiveness of it insults the fact that he would even bother to ask such a stupid question.

So here's my request to you: Please stop using these kind of threads for your speculative "theories".

IMO post #5 of this thread was useful information that OP can use as a starting point to google things and learn. You can disagree with that if you want.

A recurring theme here is that I add underlying information to the standard "It's utter nonsense" type of response, then you guys pile on me, then I defend myself with unabridged replies. Believe it or not, I'm not seeking out opportunities to do that. You guys are just so self-conscious about your worldview of nutrition that you can not tolerate dissenting opinion.

Case in point, can you answer me why the idea of post-workout carbs has been around for so long and propagated by so many people when the scientific evidence suggests it has no benefit? Is that a discussion worthy of your holy consideration in a thread like this?

[Mrpb]

TBH I find it insulting how you serially assume OP to be a newbie who is incapable of processing any thought more complex than "It's utter nonsense."

That's a 100% straw man. Are you even aware that you often use straw men in discussions? You used the exact same on in the fasting thread.

I never claimed he "is incapable of processing any thought more complex". I claimed "OP is likely a beginner who wants to learn the right way to set up his diet so he can start gaining muscle" and "He's asking a simple straight forward question that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply. "

If you want to start a debate make sure you're actually debating what has been said.

Most people have enough brain power to absorb conflicting information and get to work googling things.

The advice to google Carb backloading was also bad advice. Like your theories CBL is also built on shaky foundations, the say the least...

The dismissiveness of it insults the fact that he would even bother to ask such a stupid question.

You're adding a lot of meaning to words that isn't there. The only thing I'm dismissive of is the idiotic practice of average gym bros adding dextrose to their post workout shake.

IMO post #5 of this thread was useful information that OP can use as a starting point to google things and learn. You can disagree with that if you want.

As I do totally. Carb back loading is the last thing he needs to Google lol.

A recurring theme here is that I add underlying information to the standard "It's utter nonsense" type of response, then you guys pile on me, then I defend myself with unabridged replies. Believe it or not, I'm not seeking out opportunities to do that. You guys are just so self-conscious about your worldview of nutrition that you can not tolerate dissenting opinion.

You're missing one part: the recurring thing is that you like to come up with extremely far fetched theories that lack scientific support. Then we pile up on you.

"You can shock your system by alternating random periods of fasting and feeding. This will make you really metabolically flexible bro!"

"Dextrose in your PWO shake might work, but only if you do it unexpectedly. Keep your body guessing!"

Case in point, can you answer me why the idea of post-workout carbs has been around for so long and propagated by so many people when the scientific evidence suggests it has no benefit? Is that a discussion worthy of your holy consideration in a thread like this?

Because there are situations in which it can be a good idea. For example: prolonged cardio like marathons. Or doing multiple weightlifting sessions per day.

If you like to help OP by giving more detailed answers, mention those scenarios instead of inventing your own.

My theory is that an unexpected spike in post-workout carbs will affect net protein balance

Then it should have shown up in acute studies. This is the problem, I could go into the literature and then I'd probably find a the relevant study but I don't want to spend my time debunking all your far fetched claims. Too much work and chances are you start you'll be argumentative and start speculating why the study is "flawed" and you'll try to invent a new theory that then I'd need to debunk again. I can't be bothered.

And you didn't start the thread. OP did. And he asked if it helps build muscle. This has been answered now.

If you have certain theories or questions about dextrose in the post workout shake that you would like to share or discuss, why not start your own thread? Seriously? What's stopping you?

I once wanted to learn more and discuss about optimising MPS strategies, I just started my own thread: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...3570921&page=1

[rhadam]

But this is exactly why the studies are flawed. They create some sort of daily consistency in order to create a scientific baseline. But human beings don't exhibit that baseline in real life. Nor should they.

My theory is that an unexpected spike in post-workout carbs will affect net protein balance, but the body quickly adapts to this by down-regulating future protein synthesis. If done consistently, the post-workout carbs become expected and then the body is back in balance. I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about this here, but pro bodybuilders inject insulin after workouts because they know that they can out-dose the adaptive response (i.e. increase dosing as necessary to keep the body from achieving balance). So yeah, if you expect daily post-workout carbs to have a long-term effect, you're gonna have a bad time. Of course the body is just going to adapt. What you have to do is figure out how to use it strategically as just one tool in your tool belt.



+1 -- nobody should be making a habit of this.

I don't know if i can even get past this post. You do know how a study is structured... correct? You are proposing that known baselines, and consistency, make for poor controls and a poor study? This is nonsense bordering on idiocy. Why not just make a guess then, and throw the scientific method in to the wind?

Lastly, your "idea" involving adaptation to insulin spiking in healthy individuals, and carbs impacting net protein balance... i have no idea where you are coming up with this but it holds no empirical merit. Your grasp of physiology is incredibly lacking, as evidenced by your post here. I'll leave you with this: protein is insulinogenic. Care to hypothesize how the body would downregulate this process?

[rtpmarine]

@Mrpb - lol not a straw man. I'm clearly responding to your repeated emphasis that posters are beginners who need to have things explained to them in simple terms. I'm not going out of my way to create that argument out of thin air. You are the one who wants posters on this forum to only get the simplistic nutritional advice that is blessed by you. IMO some conflicting information is good for people, especially when you guys lean on published research as if it is infallible.

I don't know if i can even get past this post. You do know how a study is structured... correct? You are proposing that known baselines, and consistency, make for poor controls and a poor study? This is nonsense bordering on idiocy. Why not just make a guess then, and throw the scientific method in to the wind?

Reading comprehension, FTW. When I say "the studies are flawed" I am not saying that scientific rigor is a bad thing. I'm saying that scientific rigor prevents studies from isolating the variables involved in this particular issue.

The body is extremely adaptable when it comes to nutrition--so it should be neither surprising nor compelling to anyone here that carbs+protein and protein-alone groups will show similar effects after several weeks. When presented with a consistent daily diet, of course the body will eventually achieve homeostasis. That is what it is designed to do. Why is that simple idea considered to be so offensive around here?

Lastly, your "idea" involving adaptation to insulin spiking in healthy individuals, and carbs impacting net protein balance... i have no idea where you are coming up with this but it holds no empirical merit. Your grasp of physiology is incredibly lacking, as evidenced by your post here. I'll leave you with this: protein is insulinogenic. Care to hypothesize how the body would downregulate this process?

Consider someone who always consumes 25g protein immediately following every workout for several weeks, and then one day they decide to consume 25g protein plus 25g carbs. Will the insulinemic response be the same? Could that have an effect on MPS/MPB balance?

Then extend the thought experiment. Say that person starts taking 25g protein + 25g carbs following every workout for several weeks. Will the insulinemic response adapt? How will that adaptation affect MPS/MPB balance?

[Mrpb]

@Mrpb - lol not a straw man.

100% straw man. My words literally: "He's asking a simple straight forward question that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply. Speculation about remote possibilities is only likely to confuse him."

Your words, literally: "TBH I find it insulting how you serially assume OP to be a newbie who is incapable of processing any thought more complex than "It's utter nonsense.".

Strawman Fallacy. Description: Substituting a person's actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...rawman-Fallacy

I'm not going out of my way to create that argument out of thin air.

No, you do it without any effort.

so it should be neither surprising nor compelling to anyone here that carbs+protein and protein-alone groups will show similar effects after several weeks.

You're not listening, even acutely there's no difference. Adding carbs doesn't stimulate MPS more than just protein.

[AdamWW]

Consider someone who always consumes 25g protein immediately following every workout for several weeks, and then one day they decide to consume 25g protein plus 25g carbs. Will the insulinemic response be the same? Could that have an effect on MPS/MPB balance?

Then extend the thought experiment. Say that person starts taking 25g protein + 25g carbs following every workout for several weeks. Will the insulinemic response adapt? How will that adaptation affect MPS/MPB balance?

Talk about splitting hairs..

You really think there will be a measurable difference in net lean body mass here? This is small fish...

[Mrpb]

Talk about splitting hairs..

Not only that but it's already been looked at extensively. The verdict is no.

Carbohydrates slows down protein digestion, but have no effect on muscle protein synthesis (Gorissen, 2014). In agreement, adding large amounts of carbohydrates to protein does not improve post-exercise MPS rates (Koopman, 2007).

You only need a minimal amount of food to reach insulin concentrations that maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown. In agreement, adding carbohydrates to 30 g of protein does not further decrease muscle protein breakdown rates (Staples, 2011).

In addition to the effects on protein digestion, it has been suggested that carbohydrates stimulate insulin release, which may stimulate muscle protein synthesis and/or muscle protein breakdown rates. However, the addition of carbohydrates to post-exercise protein has no effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown rates.

As described in my systematic review, insulin does not stimulate MPS (Trommelen, 2015).

This is best illustrated by a study which clamped (maintained) insulin at different concentrations and also clamped amino acids at a high concentration.

There were four conditions:

high amino acids + low insulin
high amino acids + medium insulin
high amino acids + high high insulin
high amino acids + very high insulin

Regardless whether insulin levels were kept low (similar to fasted levels) or very high, MPS rates were the same in all conditions.

In my systematic review, I describe the effect of insulin in other conditions including in the absence of amino acid infusion, but the conclusion remains that insulin does not stimulate MPS under normal conditions (Trommelen, 2015). However, it should be noted that insulin stimulates MPS at at supraphysiological (above natural levels) doses (Hillier, 1998). In the bodybuilding world, insulin is sometimes injected at supraphysiological doses to stimulate muscle growth.

Insulin inhibits muscle protein breakdown a bit, but only a little is needed for the maximal effect. A protein shake alone increases enough insulin to maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown, you don’t need additional carbohydrates (Staples, 2011).

https://www.nutritiontactics.com/mea...ein-synthesis/

[rtpmarine]

100% straw man. My words literally: "He's asking a simple straight forward question that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply. Speculation about remote possibilities is only likely to confuse him."

Your words, literally: "TBH I find it insulting how you serially assume OP to be a newbie who is incapable of processing any thought more complex than "It's utter nonsense.".

You honestly don't realize that you are assuming that he's asking a simple straight forward question and that he wants a simple straight forward reply? You don't see your own presumptive bias there? What if OP is interested in actually learning how this stuff works, and not just interested in prescriptive advice?

This is exactly what happened in that IF thread. OP asked a question that you (plural) assumed to be a simple straight forward thing, but then he wasn't satisfied with your response so he asked for more detail. I was the first one to come along and offer up any underlying information.

You're not listening, even acutely there's no difference. Adding carbs doesn't stimulate MPS more than just protein.

I know that you have plenty of knowledge on the topic to understand that this statement does not make sense with respect to AKT / mTOR signaling or any of the other mechanisms that balance muscle protein. The review article you cited even points out the study showing that 40g protein enhances MPS compared to 20g protein post-workout. So if more protein can increase MPS, then obviously MPS is not maxed out.

Aside from all that, MPS isn't even the only consideration. There is significant MPB that occurs as a result of exercise, too.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19164770

"However, postexercise-increased amino acid availability is less important for inhibiting MPB than insulin, the secretion of which is stimulated most by glucose availability, without itself stimulating MPS"

[AdamWW]

You honestly don't realize that you are assuming that he's asking a simple straight forward question and that he wants a simple straight forward reply? You don't see your own presumptive bias there? What if OP is interested in actually learning how this stuff works, and not just interested in prescriptive advice?

This is exactly what happened in that IF thread. OP asked a question that you (plural) assumed to be a simple straight forward thing, but then he wasn't satisfied with your response so he asked for more detail. I was the first one to come along and offer up any underlying information.

Did you even read the OP?

He's clearly NOT an advanced lifter... he's training full body 3x per week and talking about concepts he 'heard about' related to carbs PWO...

Do you think someone with years and years of experience would ask these kinds of questions?

Furthermore, YOU also didn't bother to ask OP if he was seeking a basic or complex answer... so... there's that.

I feel like if I asked what your favorite color was, you'd launch into a 10,000 word speech about the virtues of periwinkle over ocean blue.

[rtpmarine]

Did you even read the OP?

He's clearly NOT an advanced lifter... he's training full body 3x per week and talking about concepts he 'heard about' related to carbs PWO...

Do you think someone with years and years of experience would ask these kinds of questions?

Furthermore, YOU also didn't bother to ask OP if he was seeking a basic or complex answer... so... there's that.

I feel like if I asked what your favorite color was, you'd launch into a 10,000 word speech about the virtues of periwinkle over ocean blue.

Experience level is irrelevant--all of us can learn new things. And # of years spent weightlifting probably does not correlate with ability to research.

My favorite color is green, btw.

[AdamWW]

Experience level is irrelevant--all of us can learn new things. And # of years spent weightlifting probably does not correlate with ability to research.

My favorite color is green, btw.

You completely missed my point it seems

[Mrpb]

Did you even read the OP?

I was wondering the same thing.

You completely missed my point it seems

Yup.

[Mrpb]

You honestly don't realize that you are assuming that he's asking a simple straight forward question and that he wants a simple straight forward reply?

Clearly, literal reading isn't your thing. I said "that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply."

One thing I do assume is that he and other posters who are trying to learn about nutrition are likely to be more confused than helped by your speculative theories that are in conflict with the existing evidence. If you can't see the fairness in that assumption well that's too bad.