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  1. #31
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    rptmarine, no one in their right mind would object against you giving a more detailed, accurate answer. What I (and others) do object against (and will continue to in the future) is you coming up with speculative theories that are in conflict with existing science.
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  2. #32
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    This is exactly what happened in that IF thread. OP asked a question that you (plural) assumed to be a simple straight forward thing, but then he wasn't satisfied with your response so he asked for more detail. I was the first one to come along and offer up any underlying information.
    "This is exactly what happened".... In that thread the OP actually asked for a more detailed explanation. In this thread OP has not.

    The similarity between both threads is that you were coming up with your own theories of what works.

    And once again; I'm not objecting against a more detailed, accurate answer. I object against speculation that is in conflict with existing evidence.

    The review article you cited even points out the study showing that 40g protein enhances MPS compared to 20g protein post-workout. So if more protein can increase MPS, then obviously MPS is not maxed out.
    This is rather elementary knowledge. This is why I recommend more than 20 gram protein in the post workout time frame, especially after full body workouts and in older people. The exact amount of protein necessary to maximise MPS depends on a couple of circumstances.

    Aside from all that, MPS isn't even the only consideration.
    More elementary knowledge.

    "However, postexercise-increased amino acid availability is less important for inhibiting MPB than insulin, the secretion of which is stimulated most by glucose availability, without itself stimulating MPS"
    Yes and protein alone is insulinogenic enough to achieve the maximum inhibition in MPB. Also mentioned in that article.

    (had to make multiple posts because of forum glitch)
    Last edited by Mrpb; 12-03-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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  3. #33
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    Useful study for this topic, from Stu Phillips's lab.

    PURPOSE:
    We tested the thesis that CHO and protein coingestion would augment muscle protein synthesis (MPS) and inhibit muscle protein breakdown (MPB) at rest and after resistance exercise.

    METHODS:
    Nine men (age=23.0±1.9 yr, body mass index=24.2±2.1 kg·m) performed two unilateral knee extension trials (four sets×8-12 repetitions to failure) followed by consumption of 25 g of whey protein (PRO) or 25 g of whey protein plus 50 g of maltodextrin (PRO+CARB). Muscle biopsies and stable isotope methodology were used to measure MPS and MPB.

    RESULTS:
    The areas under the glucose and insulin curves were 17.5-fold (P<0.05) and 5-fold (P<0.05) greater, respectively, for PRO+CARB than for PRO. Exercise increased MPS and MPB (both P<0.05), but there were no differences between PRO and PRO+CARB in the rested or exercised legs. Phosphorylation of Akt was greater in the PRO+CARB than in the PRO trial (P<0.05); phosphorylations of Akt (P=0.05) and acetyl coA carboxylase-β (P<0.05) were greater after exercise than at rest. The concurrent ingestion of 50 g of CHO with 25 g of protein did not stimulate mixed MPS or inhibit MPB more than 25 g of protein alone either at rest or after resistance exercise.

    CONCLUSIONS:
    Our data suggest that insulin is not additive or synergistic to rates of MPS or MPB when CHO is coingested with a dose of protein that maximally stimulates rates of MPS.


    From the full text:
    Our study is the first to report no augmentation of proteinstimulated rates of MPS and no further inhibition of MPB by hyperinsulinemia at rest or after resistance exercise after a bolus dose of whey coingested with CHO as compared with protein alone. Our data are supportive of the results of a previous study that used a repeated aliquot feeding pattern (17). In another study, in which a large dose of EAA with low (30 g) or high (90 g) CHO was compared, the authors also observed no difference between conditions. In the current study, neither intramuscular signaling (4EBP1,p70S6K, eEF2) nor blood flow to the quadriceps was different between the PRO and PRO + CARB conditions. These results suggest that the plasma aminoacidemia and insulinemia in response to 25 g of whey protein alone were sufficient to maximize any insulin-mediated stimulation of MPS. Moreover, our observed lack of an insulin-stimulated inhibition of MPB is in accordance with recent evidence that the insulin-mediated inhibition of leg protein breakdown is fully manifested at plasma concentrations 95 KUImLj1 but G30 KUImLj1 (13). Clearly, any insulin-mediated mechanisms that normally stimulate MPS and/or inhibit MPB at rest (e.g., after a meal) are without any further effect after ingestion of protein at doses that have been shown to maximally stimulate rates of MPS (7,23).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864

    And for those unaware: they were not accustomed to the protocol.
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  4. #34
    Registered User rtpmarine's Avatar
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    Ugh here I was thinking that we were done with this thread and you had to go bump it. Sigh.


    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Clearly, literal reading isn't your thing. I said "that can be answered with a simple straight forward reply."

    One thing I do assume is that he and other posters who are trying to learn about nutrition are likely to be more confused than helped by your speculative theories that are in conflict with the existing evidence. If you can't see the fairness in that assumption well that's too bad.
    This is not a speculative theory, but an explanation of the rationale that propagated the idea:
    • "The idea is that fast-acting carbs like dextrose spike insulin which amplifies the mTOR phosphorylation being caused by mechanical stress."
    No one else was willing to give this simple explanation to OP. Why? If you had explained the idea first and then debunked it, I probably would not have posted. Think of the lives that could have been saved.


    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    rptmarine, no one in their right mind would object against you giving a more detailed, accurate answer. What I (and others) do object against (and will continue to in the future) is you coming up with speculative theories that are in conflict with existing science.
    See above ^^^ with regards to the "speculative theories" trope. As for being "in conflict with existing science"...that's the whole point of why I speak up. Empiricism is a wonderful thing but ought not to dominate rationalism or skepticism.


    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    This is rather elementary knowledge. This is why I recommend more than 20 gram protein in the post workout time frame, especially after full body workouts and in older people. The exact amount of protein necessary to maximise MPS depends on a couple of circumstances.
    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Yes and protein alone is insulinogenic enough to achieve the maximum inhibition in MPB. Also mentioned in that article.
    Your acceptance of terms like "maximize MPS" and "maximum inhibition in MPB" make sense empirically, but not logically. Could there be something missing?

    More importantly, my point was not that you forgot about MPB in favor of MPS, it was that insulin and glycemia affect muscle homeostasis in many ways. We probably haven't even discovered most of those ways yet, let alone researched them. Again, this all boils down to a value-judgment where you highly value what the research says and I highly value what the rationale and practical experience say.

    Happy to give you whatever final say you want here; I'll be breaking off.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Ugh here I was thinking that we were done with this thread and you had to go bump it. Sigh.
    I just posted a study that tested your speculative theory and this is how you react.

    If you had sufficient integrity you would have said something like: "thanks for posting that study, that's interesting. I stand corrected."

    Why? look at what you wrote before:

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    Consider someone who always consumes 25g protein immediately following every workout for several weeks, and then one day they decide to consume 25g protein plus 25g carbs. Will the insulinemic response be the same? Could that have an effect on MPS/MPB balance?
    I just posted a study that shows is has no effect on MPS and MPB. (and it's not the only one of course)

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    This is not a speculative theory, but an explanation of the rationale that propagated the idea:
    • "The idea is that fast-acting carbs like dextrose spike insulin which amplifies the mTOR phosphorylation being caused by mechanical stress."
    No one else was willing to give this simple explanation to OP. Why? If you had explained the idea first and then debunked it, I probably would not have posted. Think of the lives that could have been saved.
    And you even got that wrong. You failed to understand what part your speculative theory is. Your speculative theory is:

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    I think you have to use the technique sparingly or else your body adapts and starts expecting carbs after every workout.
    Now this is why you shouldn't speculate if you haven't taken time to read the relevant literature.

    Your acceptance of terms like "maximize MPS" and "maximum inhibition in MPB" make sense empirically, but not logically. Could there be something missing?
    This is actually fair reasoning and a fair question, for once. This is why we look at short term, accute studies like the one above and longer term studies. But that's the thing: the longer term studies point in exactly the same direction (it has no effect). This is why I say: it's been debunked.

    my point was not that you forgot about MPB in favor of MPS
    Seems like you're still not getting this: his protein shake alone already causes the maximum inhibition in MPB. I didn't forget that, it's just not worth focussing on because he already has it covered. And besides that, I don't think it's my job to inform you of protein theory 101.

    it was that insulin and glycemia affect muscle homeostasis in many ways.
    That's why it's nice that several studies have looked at various indicators of intramuscular signalling too. Still no effect.

    I highly value what the rationale and practical experience say.
    Well if science fails to support something we can always rely on personal anecdotes right? Out of curiosity, are you talking about your own personal anecdote?

    In case you're referring to bodybuilders on drugs the practice could make sense, but the forum rules don't allow us to talk about that.

    Originally Posted by rtpmarine View Post
    I'll be breaking off.
    That would be the wise thing to do.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 12-05-2019 at 01:29 AM.
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