The impact of high protein intake on kidney function.

[boo99]

"RDA" is tricky. It comes primarily from nitrogen balance studies that show the 0.8g/kg number should be good for ~97.5% of people. A lot of people think RDA means maximum but really it should be considered a minimum in this case. How high about that minimum is safe is unclear. A lot of people think the RDA should be higher for elderly people (closer to 1.0-1.2 g/kg), and most of the studies looking at "high protein" intakes of 1.0-1.5 g/kg longitudinally don't find that much damage, so I think you can safely go quite a bit above the RDA without any concerns. I just don't know about the 2.0+ g/kg intakes that a lot of the sports world uses for an extended period of time.


I've attached a more expanded version of the above that I would have put here had it not been for the glitches. This expanded version still doesn't include everything I read but it should be comprehensive enough to get the points across without being too much.

Thank you for the reply and the attached Heisman

RDAs generally represent minimums to avoid nutrient deficiencies, not maximums to avoid ill effects.

Yea I'm aware what RDA is bro

Was a random statement basically saying I'm going to continue to eat my current protein amounts and not anything significantly lower be it be RDA minimum or RDA maximum

[AdamWW]

I wonder if the source of protein also makes a different, perhaps specific amino acids/profiles contribute to damage or lack thereof

[boo99]

I wonder if the source of protein also makes a different, perhaps specific amino acids/profiles contribute to damage or lack thereof

Good point

Animal vs plant, etc and their individual, if any, effects

[AdamWW]

Good point

Animal vs plant, etc and their individual, if any, effects

Especially whole food vs processed powders, etc...

[air2fakie]

Animal vs plant, etc and their individual, if any, effects

I switched to plant protein powder a few years ago - figure I'd balance out all the protein I get from meat just in case it made a difference.

[rtpmarine]

Especially whole food vs processed powders, etc...

Really interested in this as well. In particular would like to know the impact difference between taking protein powder with only water vs. taking it with milk or a meal.

I’d imagine that the more you can “diffuse” the protein with other nutrients, in particular carbs, the better.

[Heisman2]

Source of protein likely makes some difference as different amino acids can impact GFR to different degrees. There generally seem to be worse impacts from animal protein than vegetable protein, though most people eat considerably more protein from animal sources which makes it harder to tease out all of the differences. In CKD there seems to be a benefit to more plant vs animal but there are several other considerations there (acid/base balance, phosphorus content, others) that aren't relevant to people with healthy kidneys.

Protein powder vs whole meals to my knowledge hasn't been studied (with respect to kidney health). The question there is if an acute rise in blood amino acid levels would be more damaging than a more sustained slower rise, assuming it's damaging at all. It's an interesting question.

[AdamWW]

Source of protein likely makes some difference as different amino acids can impact GFR to different degrees. There generally seem to be worse impacts from animal protein than vegetable protein, though most people eat considerably more protein from animal sources which makes it harder to tease out all of the differences. In CKD there seems to be a benefit to more plant vs animal but there are several other considerations there (acid/base balance, phosphorus content, others) that aren't relevant to people with healthy kidneys.

Protein powder vs whole meals to my knowledge hasn't been studied (with respect to kidney health). The question there is if an acute rise in blood amino acid levels would be more damaging than a more sustained slower rise, assuming it's damaging at all. It's an interesting question.

I’d love to see:

Lentils/beans/grain

Vs

Milk/yogurt

Vs

Eggs

Vs

Chicken / turkey / fish

Vs

Beef

Vs

Salmon / tuna

Vs

Whey /casein powder

Vs

BcAA/EAA powder

[Mrpb]

Source of protein likely makes some difference as different amino acids can impact GFR to different degrees. There generally seem to be worse impacts from animal protein than vegetable protein, though most people eat considerably more protein from animal sources which makes it harder to tease out all of the differences. In CKD there seems to be a benefit to more plant vs animal but there are several other considerations there (acid/base balance, phosphorus content, others) that aren't relevant to people with healthy kidneys.

Protein powder vs whole meals to my knowledge hasn't been studied (with respect to kidney health). The question there is if an acute rise in blood amino acid levels would be more damaging than a more sustained slower rise, assuming it's damaging at all. It's an interesting question.

so would the goal be to keep ureagenesis as low as possible?

If so, whole meals would be better than protein powders. And spreading protein over the day would be better than 1-2 large dosages of protein.

[boo99]

I’d love to see:

Lentils/beans/grain

Vs

Milk/yogurt

Vs

Eggs

Vs

Chicken / turkey / fish

Vs

Beef

Vs

Salmon / tuna

Vs

Whey /casein powder

Vs

BcAA/EAA powder

FFO future

so would the goal be to keep ureagenesis as low as possible?

If so, whole meals would be better than protein powders. And spreading protein over the day would be better than 1-2 large dosages of protein.

Would be nice if that is so cause as you know most of us eat whole food > whey and most spread their protein out over the day, though as stated, Im keeping my protein as is

@Heisman
I'm curious if this info you presented has made you think about you altering your own protein intake?

[Heisman2]

so would the goal be to keep ureagenesis as low as possible?

If so, whole meals would be better than protein powders. And spreading protein over the day would be better than 1-2 large dosages of protein.

To some extent that would probably be helpful as the size of a protein load does have a dose response relationship with acute increase in GFR.

@Heisman
I'm curious if this info you presented has made you think about you altering your own protein intake?

Good question. I still feel comfortable staying at ~0.7g/lb from a health standpoint. My normal intake is above that (though I'm bulking currently); I'm going to take down my protein to 0.8-0.85 g/lb or so (been closer to 1 g/lb just eating foods I like without thinking about it). It's harder for me to go lower without giving up foods I like to eat regularly, lol.

[boo99]

Good question. I still feel comfortable staying at ~0.7g/lb from a health standpoint. My normal intake is above that (though I'm bulking currently); I'm going to take down my protein to 0.8-0.85 g/lb or so (been closer to 1 g/lb just eating foods I like without thinking about it). It's harder for me to go lower without giving up foods I like to eat regularly, lol.

Lol, agree, hard to give up those foods we regularly like eating

And Thanksgiving is Thursday!

Thank you for your reply

[AdamWW]

Good question. I still feel comfortable staying at ~0.7g/lb from a health standpoint. My normal intake is above that (though I'm bulking currently); I'm going to take down my protein to 0.8-0.85 g/lb or so (been closer to 1 g/lb just eating foods I like without thinking about it). It's harder for me to go lower without giving up foods I like to eat regularly, lol.

Same... I pretty much intuitively hit dead on 150g/day and have been for about 15 years... some days maybe as low as 120-130, others sometimes up to 170.... but the average is definitely around the 150 mark.

If I get lower it's because I end up eating out at restaurants more or something and end up filling up on carbs.

[Strawng]

Same... I pretty much intuitively hit dead on 150g/day and have been for about 15 years... some days maybe as low as 120-130, others sometimes up to 170.... but the average is definitely around the 150 mark.

If I get lower it's because I end up eating out at restaurants more or something and end up filling up on carbs.

Same. Not only is this my preferred way of eating, but I actually find myself actively craving protein if I don't get at least around 120 g or so. I've done "intuitive" eating for years now, and I will find myself needing to have something with protein at the end of the day if I haven't had enough. I've also tried going lower in protein when I was vegan (about 100-130 g per day) and my recovery from workouts noticeably sucked until I upped it. My minimums of pro/carb/fat are pretty hardwired despite me not actively tracking anything, and I can actually "feel" when I haven't had enough. It does feel like I need somewhere around 0.8 grams per lb. I know this sounds crazy but I've heard Eric Helms mention bodybuilders who are similar, who also have a sense of whether they hit their minimums.

When I feel low on protein, I have a very gnawing hunger. Protein being the most satiating macro, I wonder how these findings might impact dietary recs. for the general public. Is the trade-off for potentially-better kidney health worth telling people to keep their protein in-check? It seems to me that, within reason (say 200 g or so), the higher protein the better with regards to helping obese/overweight people stick to their diets.

[AdamWW]

Same. Not only is this my preferred way of eating, but I actually find myself actively craving protein if I don't get at least around 120 g or so. I've done "intuitive" eating for years now, and I will find myself needing to have something with protein at the end of the day if I haven't had enough. I've also tried going lower in protein when I was vegan (about 100-130 g per day) and my recovery from workouts noticeably sucked until I upped it. My minimums of pro/carb/fat are pretty hardwired despite me not actively tracking anything, and I can actually "feel" when I haven't had enough. It does feel like I need somewhere around 0.8 grams per lb. I know this sounds crazy but I've heard Eric Helms mention bodybuilders who are similar, who also have a sense of whether they hit their minimums.

When I feel low on protein, I have a very gnawing hunger. Protein being the most satiating macro, I wonder how these findings might impact dietary recs. for the general public. Is the trade-off for potentially-better kidney health worth telling people to keep their protein in-check? It seems to me that, within reason (say 200 g or so), the higher protein the better with regards to helping obese/overweight people stick to their diets.

I had no idea you were vegan once (or I forgot somehow)... I was vegan 3 years until last spring. Shadow... you truly have outdone yourself ;-)

I echo the feelings of low protein. I liken it to feel a strange ‘sinking’ feeling in my gut which fats or carbs can’t really fill. Sounds nebulous, but in my experience:

Carb = energy and bulk in stomach
Fats = general satiety / satisfaction / mouthfeel
Protein = prolonged meal satisfaction / reduction of hunger pangs / enhanced recovery

I find there is something about the process of chewing whole food protein sources that rounds off a meal... I can’t get that same feeling from just pasta, or just mixed nuts... at least not that lasts very long. I can be hungry in 1-2 hours even from a big yogurt bowl with granola on it if the yogurt isn’t high protein, but give me sweet potato fries, some broccoli with cheddar on top, and a nice salmon fillet, I’m good for several hours.

Only possible exception would be my proats... but then my proats are like 900-1000 calories

I intuitively eat as well, but estimating I would still say I get 140-160 protein on average.. carbs... lol... I dunno, maybe 500-600 on average... they honestly just fill in gaps of energy and a good excuse to get extra micros... plus slamming an extra banana or throwing back a bowl of cereal is really easy.

Been having to purposefully add extra fats cuz I’ve been retaining a lot of water from the carbs... but man it makes training fun.

[armies]

Protein is healthy

[HanleyTucks]

I’d love to see:

Lentils/beans/grain

Vs

Milk/yogurt

[etc]

You speak as though people could or should eat just one of those things. A sensible person will have a varied diet of some red meat, some fish, some white meat, some beans, some dairy, and so on.

[AdamWW]

You speak as though people could or should eat just one of those things. A sensible person will have a varied diet of some red meat, some fish, some white meat, some beans, some dairy, and so on.

Uh, no I don’t, wtf are you talking about?

I’m allowed to be curious without suggesting anything is good or bad.

People can eat whatever they want, I don’t really care.

[boo99]

You speak as though people could or should eat just one of those things. A sensible person will have a varied diet of some red meat, some fish, some white meat, some beans, some dairy, and so on.

Go back and re-read the context of what he wrote

We were discussing testing different food groups (proteins) to see which, if any, had any higher or lower effects on kidney pathology, as that's the topic of this thread

Smh

[Gxp23]

Protein is healthy

Give it a break or you will be going on one.

Try posting more helpful, debatable stuff instead of random statements.

[boo99]

Give it a break or you will be going on one.

Try posting more helpful, debatable stuff instead of random statements.

Lmao

What is about protein threads, as well as IF, Keto, IIFYM, etc that brings out the ludicrous lol

[Mrpb]

The references here may be of interest. Italian article, use Google to translate.

Proteins and kidney damage: long-term studies

https://www.vivereinforma.it/protein...potesi-realta/

(I tried copying more but the forum has glitches).

[Heisman2]

I went through the article, nothing really new I hadn't seen previously. I did use google translate and am impressed with how readable it was after using this; it seems to work quite well.

[DougyF7]

Bumping this thread to see if there has been any further information made available.

[air2fakie]

Bumping this thread to see if there has been any further information made available.

I dunno but it's fun to read conversations from a few years ago that you don't remember having.

[DougyF7]

I dunno but it's fun to read conversations from a few years ago that you don't remember having.

Lol it's a good/funny thread to read.

[AdamWW]

Wonder where mrpb is these days

[EliKoehn]

Wonder where mrpb is these days

Perusing all of the literature.

[Heisman2]

Bumping this thread to see if there has been any further information made available.

No new important updates that I have come across. There is another review just out about protein intake for hypertrophy in general; I intend to read it today and will make a thread about it.

Edit: I was mistaken, the other review is for strength training and is similar to the various ones on hypertrophy showing an "optimal" intake of ~1.5 g/kg when engaging in resistance training, but they likely didn't have very many well-trained individuals and it's not really anything new.

[MarkGarro95]

A high protein diet is NOT unhealthy

From my understanding, I high protein diet is needed to maintain not only proper function but also to keep fat off for the most part(in addition to eating at maintence level)