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  1. #1
    Registered User Tamorlane's Avatar
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    Fearing a mass shooting, police took his guns. A judge gave them back

    Do you guys who support some form of red flag laws think it was justified?

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ave-them-back/

    Authorities in the Seattle area came across an alarming photo on social media at the beginning of October. It showed a man holding two AK-47-style rifles. The caption above read: “one ticket for joker please.”

    With only a couple of days left before the opening of the “Joker” movie, law-enforcement agencies scrambled to assess the threat level of the message. As detectives waded through the man’s online history, they encountered additional troubling posts: Charels Donnelly, 23, talked about threatening his mother with a gun and described fantasies about hurting women.

    “i will shoot any woman any time for any reason,” he posted on Twitter.

    Thanks to the state’s fledgling “red flag” law meant to help prevent gun violence, police in Redmond won a temporary court order to seize Donnelly’s weapons from his home: three handguns and three rifles, including an AK-47-style rifle and its accompanying magazines. But a couple of weeks later, he returned to court with a lawyer, testified that his online posts were jokes meant only for his friends, and asked for his guns back.

    A judge agreed.

    Facing a rise in gun deaths across the country and a spate of calamitous mass shootings, 17 states have adopted “red flag” laws as a vital new tool to seize weapons from people they deem imminently dangerous. But as more authorities rush to take preemptive action, they are finding themselves colliding with the limitations of those statutes and the Constitution.

    Now local courts are having to grapple with First Amendment and Second Amendment implications while trying to discern whether troubling comments are just crass shenanigans, isolated outbursts, or justifiable reasons to take a person’s guns.
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    Lifelong Virgin wincel's Avatar
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    I am against red flag laws. Thoughtcrime is not a thing. Unless he carries out a serious attempt, he should not be held for any crime. A twitter post is hardly a credible threat. As if nobody here has fantasized about mass murder. Have none of you played GTA? You're telling me you never fired a rocket launcher at a passerby and giggled? Pls.
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    Neither Enemy Nor Friend! EternaLovE's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    I am against red flag laws. Thoughtcrime is not a thing. Unless he carries out a serious attempt, he should not be held for any crime. A twitter post is hardly a credible threat. As if nobody here has fantasized about mass murder. Have none of you played GTA? You're telling me you never fired a rocket launcher at a passerby and giggled? Pls.
    fuk off TDS idiot.
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    Lifelong Virgin wincel's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EternaLovE View Post
    fuk off TDS idiot.
    fuk off nuthugger
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    Registered User scheal's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Do you guys who support some form of red flag laws think it was justified?

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ave-them-back/
    As you are Canadian, your opinion or thoughts are worthless on anything to do with this country

    Please contribute to a Canadian forum

    Here's one for you

    https://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/...dian-politics/
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    205lb OHP crew otisthebat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    fuk off nuthugger
    How are you not banned after your many alt accounts?
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  7. #7
    Registered User Tamorlane's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wincel View Post
    I am against red flag laws. Thoughtcrime is not a thing. Unless he carries out a serious attempt, he should not be held for any crime. A twitter post is hardly a credible threat. As if nobody here has fantasized about mass murder. Have none of you played GTA? You're telling me you never fired a rocket launcher at a passerby and giggled? Pls.
    Red flag laws were created like most regulations and policies out of necessity. Laws aren't just thought up necessarily out of thin air and all implemented at once. They are built and stacked over time. I am sure there have been cases where people were a known threat, no one did anything and then they used the weapons on others, and most often it's those closest to them so their family. It's something we as individuals aren't necessarily exposed to but police and courts would be. It's like how police get annoyed at not wearing seatbelts on the highway because they see the results of car accident victims who weren't wearing them. They get annoyed when they see a credible threat and nothing is done about it and then something does happen. Guess what everyone asks? 'What could we have done to prevent this?'
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  8. #8
    I hump you like camel? 401Delta's Avatar
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    I don't support any kind of red flag laws. If a person is looney, get a court order and have them committed in a treatment facility.

    Not that many people die from guns on the grand scale, and whatever amount is trivial as they are not worth the price of freedom.

    100 billion people have died on this planet throughout history, and only a few million of those deaths were from the result of a gun - and most of those were from war/conflict.

    It's just not as big a problem as the media makes it out to be.
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  9. #9
    Registered User stardewvalley's Avatar
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    I'd give up the ability to make violent jokes or comments in a recorded environment if that would decrease the rates of these mass shootings

    hell
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Red flag laws were created like most regulations and policies out of necessity. Laws aren't just thought up necessarily out of thin air and all implemented at once. They are built and stacked over time. I am sure there have been cases where people were a known threat, no one did anything and then they used the weapons on others, and most often it's those closest to them so their family. It's something we as individuals aren't necessarily exposed to but police and courts would be. It's like how police get annoyed at not wearing seatbelts on the highway because they see the results of car accident victims who weren't wearing them. They get annoyed when they see a credible threat and nothing is done about it and then something does happen. Guess what everyone asks? 'What could we have done to prevent this?'
    You don't believe in due process?
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  11. #11
    Registered User Tamorlane's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You don't believe in due process?
    Yes I do. It's important to combat things like malicious accusations, incompetence from police or judges or overreaching of authority. But if a person gives evidence to suggest that they may carry out a threat, then options for preemptive confiscation should be considered. Especially if in the past there were red flags, nothing was done and innocent people paid the price.

    I think if there are going to be red flag laws, then it should be a transparent process, with accountability and written justification for all decision-making as well as an appeal process. I'm sure all of these are in place, and in this situation the process worked. The man got his guns back. Now hopefully we don't hear about him on the news.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Yes I do. It's important to combat things like malicious accusations, incompetence from police or judges or overreaching of authority. But if a person gives evidence to suggest that they may carry out a threat, then options for preemptive confiscation should be considered. Especially if in the past there were red flags, nothing was done and innocent people paid the price.

    I think if there are going to be red flag laws, then it should be a transparent process, with accountability and written justification for all decision-making as well as an appeal process. I'm sure all of these are in place, and in this situation the process worked. The man got his guns back. Now hopefully we don't hear about him on the news.
    All he had to do was show up with a lawyer in his pocket. The threats were clearly not credible. On the flip side, some people snap without warning. RPO's are a very tricky thing unless there's a very specific threat made to a specific person and ESPECIALLY if they've had prior history.

    Also police competence has very little to do with it. Its all a matter of liability for any judge, agency or body of government to take someone's rights from them without probable cause. Also, under very specific circumstances, reasonable suspicion may or may not be considered as probable cause (sometimes it isn't enough or at all). Each state has specific criteria for what constitutes the need for an RPO, and make no mistake, RPO's will not always be in line with what's already on the books.
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    All men are created equal metroins's Avatar
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    I think I'm ok with temporary red flag laws.

    Bringing attention/heat on a potential threat can be a huge deterrence.

    Yeah he should get his guns back, but the seriousness of police showing up may deter an unstable person and bring them into sanity.

    It seems unconstitutional, but so are DUI checkpoints in my opinion.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Red flag laws were created like most regulations and policies out of necessity. Laws aren't just thought up necessarily out of thin air and all implemented at once. They are built and stacked over time. I am sure there have been cases where people were a known threat, no one did anything and then they used the weapons on others, and most often it's those closest to them so their family. It's something we as individuals aren't necessarily exposed to but police and courts would be. It's like how police get annoyed at not wearing seatbelts on the highway because they see the results of car accident victims who weren't wearing them. They get annoyed when they see a credible threat and nothing is done about it and then something does happen. Guess what everyone asks? 'What could we have done to prevent this?'
    Preventing shootings means being armed and trained to stop the threat, not taking away someones constitutional rights based off irrational fear
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    I don't support any kind of red flag laws. If a person is looney, get a court order and have them committed in a treatment facility.

    Not that many people die from guns on the grand scale, and whatever amount is trivial as they are not worth the price of freedom.

    100 billion people have died on this planet throughout history, and only a few million of those deaths were from the result of a gun - and most of those were from war/conflict.

    It's just not as big a problem as the media makes it out to be.
    This is my thoughts exactly. As a first responder whenever we get notice of a possible crazy or something with guns in the house we follow certain precautions. If we deem them as threats to themselves or others then we can have the doctor recommend them to be 302d. I can't justify having red flag laws. What's to say someone who has bias against you doesn't unlawfully get your guns taken away from you.

    Unfortunately we should stop focusing on the guns and focus on the actual issue of mental illness. We can dig even deeper and notice a trend that most mass shooters are usually bullied in school. Now theres no way you can ever stop bullying, but maybe parents need to stop raising kids who won't stand up for themselves.
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    Originally Posted by metroins View Post
    I think I'm ok with temporary red flag laws.

    Bringing attention/heat on a potential threat can be a huge deterrence.

    Yeah he should get his guns back, but the seriousness of police showing up may deter an unstable person and bring them into sanity.

    It seems unconstitutional, but so are DUI checkpoints in my opinion.
    60 minutes had a good segment on red flag laws in Colorado. The problem is some sheriifs refused to follow state and local law and are instead abiding by the Constitution. I commend those sheriffs for sticking to their guns and not caving for fear of punishment.
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    I think there is a way to do it that I would support - but to do it right the Left would have to be completely removed from the process of crafting a fair system. So it is more or less impossible.
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    Suspending a Constitutional right without due process is a crime, AFAIC.


    Now, if the Police were to stop by his house and talk to the man. Let him know what they saw and what there concerns are, OK.

    They could even drive by a few more times just to let them know he's on their radar.
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    Registered User Tamorlane's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ItsJamesthefin View Post
    This is my thoughts exactly. As a first responder whenever we get notice of a possible crazy or something with guns in the house we follow certain precautions. If we deem them as threats to themselves or others then we can have the doctor recommend them to be 302d. I can't justify having red flag laws. What's to say someone who has bias against you doesn't unlawfully get your guns taken away from you.
    I mentioned the process should be transparent so that those involved have to openly justify their reasoning. If a person maliciously has someone targeted they should be charged for it.

    Unfortunately we should stop focusing on the guns and focus on the actual issue of mental illness. We can dig even deeper and notice a trend that most mass shooters are usually bullied in school. Now theres no way you can ever stop bullying, but maybe parents need to stop raising kids who won't stand up for themselves.
    So an aggressive mental health campaign across the country is going to stop mass shootings? I don't think so. The problem is the amount of guns in circulation so every psycho can easily get one and go to the local school and shoot it up, which happens in the US rather frequently. These things don't happen in Japan because a) Japan isn't violent like the US and 2) there are no guns for that psycho who wants to kill people to be able to do so. I know, if you ban guns he'll just use a butter knife! The counterargument of every 2nd amendment proponent. I'm sure a butter knife is as lethal as a firearm.


    In context of the 2014 Isla Vista killings:

    "Once again, we are grieving over deaths and devastation caused by a young man who was sending up red flags for danger that failed to produce intervention in time to avert tragedy. In this case, the red flags were so big the killer's parents had called police ... and yet the system failed."

    As mentioned, these laws are made out of necessity. You all have the benefit of sitting on your computers unaffected while those dealing with these problems on the front lines are pushing to enact these laws because they are needed.

    If you don't want your guns taken away, be like anyone else who isn't raising red flags. Safety of society is more important than one's person's unfettered right to own guns.
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    Red flag laws were created like most regulations and policies out of necessity. Laws aren't just thought up necessarily out of thin air and all implemented at once. They are built and stacked over time. I am sure there have been cases where people were a known threat, no one did anything and then they used the weapons on others, and most often it's those closest to them so their family. It's something we as individuals aren't necessarily exposed to but police and courts would be. It's like how police get annoyed at not wearing seatbelts on the highway because they see the results of car accident victims who weren't wearing them. They get annoyed when they see a credible threat and nothing is done about it and then something does happen. Guess what everyone asks? 'What could we have done to prevent this?'
    By your logic, we should remove Bradley Cooper's guns from him because he produced the Joker.
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    I do not like the impact red flag laws make on both the second and first amendments.
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    Originally Posted by metroins View Post
    I think I'm ok with temporary red flag laws.

    Bringing attention/heat on a potential threat can be a huge deterrence.

    Yeah he should get his guns back, but the seriousness of police showing up may deter an unstable person and bring them into sanity.

    It seems unconstitutional, but so are DUI checkpoints in my opinion.
    I'm here - and I don't think it's unconstitutional as long as there is due process. I think bringing heat is good, but also just creating a society where you don't run around saying you're going to shoot someone - when we know it's totally possible in our world atm.
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    Originally Posted by rhadam View Post
    I do not like the impact red flag laws make on both the second and first amendments.
    The devil is in the details, but as long as it's a pretty high standard to have your guns confiscated for a brief time (unless something else comes up) than I don't see the First Amendment issues. You can still say it, just there might be consequences. We make little exceptions all the time anyway trademarks and copyright being a great example they are clearly 100% on their face a violation of the First Amendment but one is actaully demanded for in the Constitution and the other is from a reading of the commerce clause.

    As to the guns, we take those away/refuse to sell them to people all the time - often for much more dumb reasons.
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    The devil is in the details, but as long as it's a pretty high standard to have your guns confiscated for a brief time (unless something else comes up) than I don't see the First Amendment issues. You can still say it, just there might be consequences. We make little exceptions all the time anyway trademarks and copyright being a great example they are clearly 100% on their face a violation of the First Amendment but one is actaully demanded for in the Constitution and the other is from a reading of the commerce clause.

    As to the guns, we take those away/refuse to sell them to people all the time - often for much more dumb reasons.

    Whats the consequence for someone making a false red flag claim? Nothing. Also red flag laws put the burden on the individual to prove their innocence rather than on the state to prove their guilt which is literally the opposite of what our justice system was founded on
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    Originally Posted by metroins View Post
    I think I'm ok with temporary red flag laws.

    Bringing attention/heat on a potential threat can be a huge deterrence.

    Yeah he should get his guns back, but the seriousness of police showing up may deter an unstable person and bring them into sanity.

    It seems unconstitutional, but so are DUI checkpoints in my opinion.
    Now thet is interesting, you have people who support red flag laws, but they're against DUI checkpoints?
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    Originally Posted by Tamorlane View Post
    I mentioned the process should be transparent so that those involved have to openly justify their reasoning. If a person maliciously has someone targeted they should be charged for it.



    So an aggressive mental health campaign across the country is going to stop mass shootings? I don't think so. The problem is the amount of guns in circulation so every psycho can easily get one and go to the local school and shoot it up, which happens in the US rather frequently. These things don't happen in Japan because a) Japan isn't violent like the US and 2) there are no guns for that psycho who wants to kill people to be able to do so. I know, if you ban guns he'll just use a butter knife! The counterargument of every 2nd amendment proponent. I'm sure a butter knife is as lethal as a firearm.


    In context of the 2014 Isla Vista killings:

    "Once again, we are grieving over deaths and devastation caused by a young man who was sending up red flags for danger that failed to produce intervention in time to avert tragedy. In this case, the red flags were so big the killer's parents had called police ... and yet the system failed."

    As mentioned, these laws are made out of necessity. You all have the benefit of sitting on your computers unaffected while those dealing with these problems on the front lines are pushing to enact these laws because they are needed.

    If you don't want your guns taken away, be like anyone else who isn't raising red flags. Safety of society is more important than one's person's unfettered right to own guns.
    Do you support DUI checkpoints?
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    Originally Posted by miscinbro View Post
    The devil is in the details, but as long as it's a pretty high standard to have your guns confiscated for a brief time (unless something else comes up) than I don't see the First Amendment issues. You can still say it, just there might be consequences. We make little exceptions all the time anyway trademarks and copyright being a great example they are clearly 100% on their face a violation of the First Amendment but one is actaully demanded for in the Constitution and the other is from a reading of the commerce clause.

    As to the guns, we take those away/refuse to sell them to people all the time - often for much more dumb reasons.
    The person having their guns removed, are they under arrest for anything?
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    Originally Posted by dhawkeye1980 View Post
    Whats the consequence for someone making a false red flag claim? Nothing.
    There should be consequences, we don't know that there aren't or wouldn't be in cases deemed malicious, or that they couldn't be implemented (since policies and laws are often improved and fine-tuned over time). You have to be careful about trying to crucify anyone who makes a claim, one reason being the law could prove successful and help avoid a catastrophe but the person with their guns removed can say it is 'proof' of overreach.

    Originally Posted by dhawkeye1980
    Also red flag laws put the burden on the individual to prove their innocence rather than on the state to prove their guilt which is literally the opposite of what our justice system was founded on
    When the police arrest a person on reasonable grounds and bring them downtown to the jail they haven't yet had their day in court. They are technically having their constitutional rights violated by police on a premise of guilty until proven innocent. The person is not allowed to leave, they have their wrists cuffed, they are essentially kidnapped and locked in a cage. All the while could be completely innocent but the police deemed it sufficient to arrest.

    All the points you raise are valid concerns but they don't necessarily remove the need for red flag laws to exist. You guys can spout out all of that 'shall not be infringed' bullsht but the reality is some people are psychotic and if they're throwing up red flags that are legitimate causes of concern then they should be acted upon. In fact the government has the responsibility to keep innocent people safe from people who are a legitimate threat to society. If you post on FB something about going to a Joker movie with guns after that Batman massacre in Aurora, then you deserve to be investigated and have your guns temporarily removed. "It was just a joke bro", "just for friends to see" as he posts it on a public forum. And clearly one of his 'friends' deemed him a risk enough to contact police.

    Again, look at the victims and situations where red flags were raised, nothing was done and innocent people paid the price. 2nd amendment advocates and extremists will never fight for the safety of innocent people, including children. So we don't go to them for problem solving. We may listen to what they have to say, but they lack the capacity to actually improve and make progress in society. Conservatives have a tendency to hold back progress, technological, scientific and for humanity in general.
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    Originally Posted by metroins View Post
    It seems unconstitutional, but so are DUI checkpoints in my opinion.
    So the appropriate response is to get rid of DUI checkpoints, not double down and say that because we allow one unconstitutional thing we should allow another.

    WTF kind of logic is that?
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    Originally Posted by 401Delta View Post
    I don't support any kind of red flag laws.
    If you support Trump, you support red flag laws.

    Hopefully your AR's are next.
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