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  1. #1
    Registered User thatgingerbeard's Avatar
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    Intermediate/Proficient Lifter - Feeling Lost

    Okay, so I have been following basic routines for the last 3 years. I've put in solid time, I've built an awesome physique and now I have no idea wtf to do. Strength wise, I fall in the Intermediate / Proficient category. My deadlift and row is proficient, and my ohp too. But, my bench / squat are still intermediate.

    I've done blood work for the last couple of years due to being on TRT and my cortisol is regularly low, recovery for me is slow. However, I like to exercise, it's my therapy.

    For the last 6 months I've been doing a powerlifting program 3 days a week, and BJJ 3 days a week. I get pretty beat up and have to deload more than I'd like, but I'm not stupid, I listen to my body.

    Well, it was inevitable, I got injured. Somehow, still no idea how, I developed a nasty bone bruise on the connect between my femur and tibia in my right knee. I thought I tore my MCL, but after an MRI and Ortho visit, turns out it's just a bone bruise, no problem with the joint at all.

    I took 3 months off BJJ and kept lifting, it started to get better, I went back to BJJ last week and well after 2 weeks bam my knee is fkd again. So, I'm done with BJJ apparently I'm a little bitch.

    That being said, I need something to replace the intense workouts. But, fk if I'm gonna try to deadlift/squat 6 times a week, and I can't stand running / swimming like typical people, I love weights...

    So, I guess I'm at that point where I need to start doing splits. I've fought this because I was of the opinion that isolation exercises would just make me overall weaker. Machines not requiring me to use stabilization / core as much etc etc.

    Now, I don't have much of a choice, I need a way to continue to lift sustainably, but there's no 6 day powerlifting routine, everyone says it's stupid to even try cause your CNS will be fried and I don't disagree.

    My question is... Am I going to shrivel into a raisin if I drop deadlifts / squats / bench and start doing machines / free weights, breaking up my body to get hit twice a week or even maybe once a week for increased recovery time? What's going to happen to my strength level, am I going to turn into a weakling?

    I'm not a competitive powerlifter by any means, my lifts are pathetic compared to those guys, so I'm not exactly worried about not being that strong, but I can deadlift twice my body weight, and I don't want to go backwards.

    Thoughts? Anyone else have a similar experience?
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    Registered User paulinkansas's Avatar
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    I'm 52. Got back into lifting after a 20 year hiatus. Tried doing the routines I did 20-30 years ago and it was just too much stress on my joints. Cut back the weight, increased the reps. Total pounds moved is still around the same, I'm just doing it with less weight and more reps.

    Would you use a 40 year old truck to tow a 12000 lb trailer? I wouldn't. I have a 40 year old F250 and I haul 4000 lbs no problem.
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    Originally Posted by thatgingerbeard View Post
    Thoughts? Anyone else have a similar experience?
    A lot of misinformation and questionable conclusions.

    1) Why do you need to be in the gym 6 times per week? "Because I quit BJJ" isn't an answer.

    2) How the fk did you make the conclusion that you now suddenly need to train with machines? What, why?
    Log: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=175660541
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    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
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    Why not just do a legs/push/pull if you really wanna loft 6 days a week? And just do higher rep lower weight?

    All the studies show as low as 30% 1RM can build muscle if taken to failure.

    So if you train lighter in the 12-15 rep range even, you’ll build plenty of muscle and maintain an adequate amount of strength.

    You could also just train an upper/lower 4-5 x a week.

    What you really need to do is figure out what is your optimal amount of weekly volume in terms of hard working sets is and spread it out from there over however many days you want to train.

    And if you wanted to train machines of course you won’t shrivel up if you provide adequate stimulus.

    A muscle doesn’t know what it’s working against and if your goals are physique related and not powerlifting related, there’s no reason you can’t use machines for a large majority of your training and supplement with whatever free weights don’t aggravate your joints and injuries.
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    Registered User thatgingerbeard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Why not just do a legs/push/pull if you really wanna loft 6 days a week? And just do higher rep lower weight?

    All the studies show as low as 30% 1RM can build muscle if taken to failure.

    So if you train lighter in the 12-15 rep range even, you’ll build plenty of muscle and maintain an adequate amount of strength.

    You could also just train an upper/lower 4-5 x a week.

    What you really need to do is figure out what is your optimal amount of weekly volume in terms of hard working sets is and spread it out from there over however many days you want to train.

    And if you wanted to train machines of course you won’t shrivel up if you provide adequate stimulus.

    A muscle doesn’t know what it’s working against and if your goals are physique related and not powerlifting related, there’s no reason you can’t use machines for a large majority of your training and supplement with whatever free weights don’t aggravate your joints and injuries.
    So, essentially... If my current maxes are:

    435 DL / 325 squat / 245 bench at 208 bw I can just do something like:

    225 DL / 185 squat / 135 bench like 4 x 10 6 times a week? Will I be able to continue to grow and progress that way if I increase weight gradually?
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    Registered User Oleg1975K's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thatgingerbeard View Post
    So, essentially... If my current maxes are:

    435 DL / 325 squat / 245 bench at 208 bw I can just do something like:

    225 DL / 185 squat / 135 bench like 4 x 10 6 times a week? Will I be able to continue to grow and progress that way if I increase weight gradually?
    Why train 6 days a week if your level is enough 3 times?
    (3 workouts per week will be enough for almost anу non- professional athlete)
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Registered User thatgingerbeard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    Why train 6 days a week if your level is enough 3 times?
    (3 workouts per week will be enough for almost anу non- professional athlete)
    I already said in my OP(Original Post). I want to train 6 days a week.
    Last edited by thatgingerbeard; 11-14-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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    Registered User Oleg1975K's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thatgingerbeard View Post
    I already said in my OP. I want to train 6 days a week.
    OP- what is it?
    I do not understand this abbreviation
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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  9. #9
    Registered User WakingOp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    OP- what is it?
    I do not understand this abbreviation
    original post(er)
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    Registered User BromanianDL's Avatar
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    If you want a professionally designed 6 day program, lyle mcdonald put one together. You can adjust this as you like, but this is about the right amount of volume for a six day program:

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...gains-qa.html/
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    Originally Posted by WakingOp View Post
    original post(er)
    Uuuh I get it...
    Well, there are also programs for 6 days.
    Helms, for example.
    I can post them here if anyone is interested.
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Originally Posted by BromanianDL View Post
    If you want a professionally designed 6 day program, lyle mcdonald put one together. You can adjust this as you like, but this is about the right amount of volume for a six day program:

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle...gains-qa.html/
    thx!
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    Originally Posted by thatgingerbeard View Post
    So, essentially... If my current maxes are:

    435 DL / 325 squat / 245 bench at 208 bw I can just do something like:

    225 DL / 185 squat / 135 bench like 4 x 10 6 times a week? Will I be able to continue to grow and progress that way if I increase weight gradually?
    Well I wouldn’t do the same exercises every time l, but if you trained close enough to failure you could make it work.

    You would probably want be more like 60-70% otherwise you have to do so much work you may induce too much fatigue to keep it up.
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    Your max lifts at your bodyweight are barely intermediate. You don't need 6 days a week, probably need less lifting and more diet control.
    160 lbs and jacked is about as impressive as D cups on a 300lb woman
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    Yes, for 3 years of training and such body dimensions, strength indicators, to put it mildly, are rather weak ... Dude would do well to take a normal program for the development of strength physical qualities, corresponding to his level of development, and not rush about in search of a magic split for 6 workouts in a week.
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Registered User Filmbuff81's Avatar
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    I’m not 100% but seems OPs goals are more about maintaining/increasing muscle mass.

    And volume is the main driver of that.

    Just because his strength standards may not qualify as “advanced” strictly off numbers, he is discussing having injuries and joint pain.

    So the best course of action is to lighten the load and continue to progress in a higher rep range.

    Who cares if he wants to lift 6x a week? If he programs volume properly, it’s totally acceptable.

    Frequency is simply a tool.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    I’m not 100% but seems OPs goals are more about maintaining/increasing muscle mass.

    And volume is the main driver of that.

    Just because his strength standards may not qualify as “advanced” strictly off numbers, he is discussing having injuries and joint pain.

    So the best course of action is to lighten the load and continue to progress in a higher rep range.

    Who cares if he wants to lift 6x a week? If he programs volume properly, it’s totally acceptable.

    Frequency is simply a tool.
    Volume is the main driver of hypertrophy? )))
    In the post-Soviet space there is a bodybuilding trainer who has been promoting this idea for 20 years. His name is Vladimir Goncharov and he is the author of the book “Logic in Training”. So ... his best natti student performs with a competitive weight of 66 kg (height 170). And the weekly tonnage of power, in direct preparation for the competition) can reach up to 250 tons. At the same time, during the off-season it also does not fall below 120 tons per week. Just an awesome "driver"))) 250 tons per week, like a professional loader for 66 kg body weight)))
    At the same time, yes ... with the help of pharmacological preparations, this trainer has the champions of Ukraine at IFBB.
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    Volume is the main driver of hypertrophy? )))
    In the post-Soviet space there is a bodybuilding trainer who has been promoting this idea for 20 years. His name is Vladimir Goncharov and he is the author of the book “Logic in Training”. So ... his best natti student performs with a competitive weight of 66 kg (height 170). And the weekly tonnage of power, in direct preparation for the competition) can reach up to 250 tons. At the same time, during the off-season it also does not fall below 120 tons per week. Just an awesome "driver"))) 250 tons per week, like a professional loader for 66 kg body weight)))
    At the same time, yes ... with the help of pharmacological preparations, this trainer has the champions of Ukraine at IFBB.
    Wtf are you blathering about?
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Wtf are you blathering about?
    I think Oleg is using google translate for his comments. Some of the russian words dont translate correctly. Russians als use slightly different terms, i think the whole tonnage thing is their way of measuring volume
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    Originally Posted by tommy4life View Post
    I think Oleg is using google translate for his comments. Some of the russian words dont translate correctly. Russians als use slightly different terms, i think the whole tonnage thing is their way of measuring volume
    That's right, Tommy. In the classical methodology for weightlifting, tonnage is one of the parameters of the training load.
    (Tonnage for 1 training session, 1 week and 4 week mesocycle). Vladimir Goncharov transferred this parameter to the training methodology of bodybuilders. Not very successful, in my opinion.
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
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    Registered User Oleg1975K's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    Wtf are you blathering about?
    Dumbasses do not understand this)))
    So pass by.
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
    Reply With Quote

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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    That's right, Tommy. In the classical methodology for weightlifting, tonnage is one of the parameters of the training load.
    (Tonnage for 1 training session, 1 week and 4 week mesocycle). Vladimir Goncharov transferred this parameter to the training methodology of bodybuilders. Not very successful, in my opinion.
    What the hell is your point though.

    What are you even trying to debate me on?

    Tonnage vs volume?

    In the context of hypertrophy, the volume equation comes down to how many working sets( per body part each week) that you do.

    Hence anything as low as 30% 1RM has been shown to produce hypertrophy when training close enough to failure.

    If you’d like to add something substantive and helpful to the thread go for it, but you have yet to do so.
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    Back when I was competing in PL, my training schedule was basically:

    Monday: Heavy lower
    Tuesday: Heavy upper
    Wednesday: Lower accessories
    Thursday: Upper accessories
    Friday: Light lower
    Saturday: Light upper

    By light and heavy, I don't mean easy and hard, but rather higher reps (usually 8+) and lower reps (usually 2-5). On the accessory days, I was doing other variations (eg front squats, RDLs, OHP, slingshot press etc) but usually not the competition lifts -- although leading into my last competition, I was doing competition squats every lower body workout as I needed the practice with knee wraps.
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    Originally Posted by Filmbuff81 View Post
    What the hell is your point though.

    What are you even trying to debate me on?

    Tonnage vs volume?

    In the context of hypertrophy, the volume equation comes down to how many working sets( per body part each week) that you do.

    Hence anything as low as 30% 1RM has been shown to produce hypertrophy when training close enough to failure.

    If you’d like to add something substantive and helpful to the thread go for it, but you have yet to do so.
    Personally, I did not try to argue with you. You were the first to comment on my post, with a silly grin on your face.
    Because now I just have to explain to you.
    I do not contrast tonnage versus volume.
    Tonnage is one of the dimensions of this volume.
    For example, in training, you did deadlift
    100 kgх5, 130Х3, 150 3х3.
    Tonnage = 500 + 390 + 1350 = 2240 kg or 2.24 tons.
    Historical example
    When preparing for the Olympics in Rome, Yuri Vlasov raised 36 tons per week, while Alekseev in the 70s raised 80 tons per week (in especially heavy microcycles).
    In weightlifting there are recommended tonnages for each level of athletes, but this parameter has value only in conjunction with others. For example, with relative intensity (%% of 1RМ).
    In the methodology of training for bodybuilding from Goncharov, which I mentioned initially, tonnage is the main parameter.
    For example, it is believed that an intermediate level athlete must master a load of 140-160 tons per week (in certain complexes of exercises). In sets, this is expressed in the region of 30–40 sets for each muscle group per week. This is a lot and difficult, but the most interesting is that this tonnage is weakly correlated with muscle hypertrophy. The growth of indicators in 15-5 RM is excellently correlated, but tonnage is not.
    Because whatever Israelitel wrote (or whoever is promoting this idea there), there is no direct relationship between volume / hypertrophy. There is an optimal volume for different levels of athletes, but these are always the final numbers. Which, incidentally, was perfectly confirmed by a meta-analysis of studies on muscle hypertrophy from Wernbom.
    I hope this time Google did not distort my words ...)))
    bench press 165 kgx1, 125 kgx13, 100 kgх24
    overhead press 100 kgx1, 82,5 kg 4 sets х 5 reps
    deadlift 230 kgx1, 200 kgx4, 190 kg 3 sets x 5 reps
    raw squat 180 kgx1, 150 kg 5x5
    chin-ups +25 kg x10 reps
    Reply With Quote

  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by Oleg1975K View Post
    Personally, I did not try to argue with you. You were the first to comment on my post, with a silly grin on your face.
    Because now I just have to explain to you.
    I do not contrast tonnage versus volume.
    Tonnage is one of the dimensions of this volume.
    For example, in training, you did deadlift
    100 kgх5, 130Х3, 150 3х3.
    Tonnage = 500 + 390 + 1350 = 2240 kg or 2.24 tons.
    Historical example
    When preparing for the Olympics in Rome, Yuri Vlasov raised 36 tons per week, while Alekseev in the 70s raised 80 tons per week (in especially heavy microcycles).
    In weightlifting there are recommended tonnages for each level of athletes, but this parameter has value only in conjunction with others. For example, with relative intensity (%% of 1RМ).
    In the methodology of training for bodybuilding from Goncharov, which I mentioned initially, tonnage is the main parameter.
    For example, it is believed that an intermediate level athlete must master a load of 140-160 tons per week (in certain complexes of exercises). In sets, this is expressed in the region of 30–40 sets for each muscle group per week. This is a lot and difficult, but the most interesting is that this tonnage is weakly correlated with muscle hypertrophy. The growth of indicators in 15-5 RM is excellently correlated, but tonnage is not.
    Because whatever Israelitel wrote (or whoever is promoting this idea there), there is no direct relationship between volume / hypertrophy. There is an optimal volume for different levels of athletes, but these are always the final numbers. Which, incidentally, was perfectly confirmed by a meta-analysis of studies on muscle hypertrophy from Wernbom.
    I hope this time Google did not distort my words ...)))
    Comrade, your thoughts are appreciated!!!

    Ignore the trolls because I think you are saying good stuff!
    Trump 2020
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