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  1. #481
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dazitmayn View Post
    Imagine a government giving free food/housing to 20% of the American population. They get as much food as they possibly want. Food and housing supply is controlled almost exclusively by an association whom the government has allowed to set supply for, funds and give regulatory powers to. This association limits supply in the face of artificially increased demand, people abuse the system by taking more than is needed creating very high costs. They do this by creating extremely high barriers into entry, unnecessary amounts of regulatory compliance. All grocery stores, restaurants and housing must all be approved by this one association that controls mostly everything, including how much housing can be built and how much food can be sold if they even do comply.

    As a result of this, artificially lower supply and artificially higher demand, food and housing prices have been jacked up for everybody else that don't qualify for free food/housing. Not to mention that the average person is paying taxes to subsidize free housing and food. A double whammy.

    If you need certain types of food and housing, that's awesome. Because the government has basically eliminated competition of other producers and patent laws have allowed these basically monopolies at this point to jack up the prices on these products. But but but it's all the corporations fault! They're greedy and evil! Meanwhile many communities are left without adequate housing and grocery stores. And the ones that qualify for free food and housing are also complaining because reduced quality and higher wait times. Because of this, some have resorted to creating illegal stores and housing to curb the limited and skyrocketing supply. Some even travel to get their food because it is much cheaper there.

    This is the health care system in a nutshell. and let's not even talk about third-party insurance systems that are in bed with doctors and pharma to basically charge the most, for the least amount and cut costs. some see this as a failure of capitalism but this is mostly a failure of government sticking their hands excessively in something they shouldn't and the markets responding in kind, with the government doing nothing to correct this unmitigated disaster. Lobbying and donations from organizations who basically have an absolute say/control is also a problem that ensures changes don't happen. Encouraging more competition, more options, generally less regulatory barriers is a good thing.

    Health care being a human right sounds great and it should be what any "compassionate" human being should believe in right? I mean in a perfect world sure. But not many people actually know what it means and what the actual consequences of making health care a right actually are. You are basically creating an obligation on another person/party to provide this right, and another party to enforce such rights. The government isn't exactly an expert on supply and demand, how much needs to produce, what is the demand, rather than the companies and industries themselves who would be much more efficient at it as well as not be restricted by a federal budget. This leads to alot of inefficiencies, cost-cutting, restricted supply, restricted options and artificial demand. Which in the case of health care creates massive wait times, cancellations, an overburdened system, etc.

    Yes it's unfortunate that people declare bankrupt because of unforeseen medical costs and people foregoing treatment because of cost. It's also unfortunate that people can't get the treatment they need because of massive wait times, overcrowded hospitals and inferior quality care. In some cases people have died because of it. Canada is the perfect example of a country that has completely de-incentivized medically necessary procedures in private settings and have forced doctors to be public practitioners. Is that any less/more moral than somebody dying because they can't afford costs. One person died because they couldn't afford it vs one person died because they lacked access to it. Either way that person is dead. A person can't afford living expenses because of taxes so is forced out of his home because he has to subsidize people who don't even give a chit about their own health and abuse the system. Is that right or moral?

    People would rather use feelings than consider reality.

    The current system isn't perfect and has a lot of flaws but that doesn't mean switch to a universal/socialized system at all. I also think it's a mistake to repeal Obamacare without some sort of long-term viable solution. I believe a solution to our health care problems is possible with the framework we have now. With all the problems that government has created, I fail to see how more government is a solution. I believe there is a way that health care can be for the most part affordable and accessible for almost everybody when they need it, which I think should be the goal.
    Excellent post. I agree. Thank you.
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  2. #482
    Registered User ImBunky's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Medicare. That wasn't difficult. Medicare costs are growing at a lower rate than private insurance, administration costs are significantly lower, and with ironing out some of the issues like fee-for-service compensation and replacing them with capitation prepayment, it can be even better. Not that Medicare is even directly run by the federal government itself, it's simply funded by the federal government to provide coverage, so I have no idea why your aspergers is triggering so hard here.

    And nobody with two brain cells to rub together finds the idea of medical bankruptcy "absolutely normal". The US is the only developed country in the world where such an absurdity is actually a common occurrence, when it is entirely avoidable if your system wasn't such hot garbage.

    You better actually grow a pair and leave the country as you claimed you would, btw.
    If you want decent coverage and are on Medicare, you better add some supplemental coverage.
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  3. #483
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    If you want decent coverage and are on Medicare, you better add some supplemental coverage.
    Exactly. Medicare Advantage is cheap at ~$40 to $60 per month. Some are $0.00 premium depending on the State.

    Medicare Supplement is for those that have money. It has much more coverage, but for the expense, in many scenarios, it is not necessary when Medicare Advantage plans fit very well.

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  4. #484
    Registered User ImBunky's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Exactly. Medicare Advantage is cheap at ~$40 to $60 per month. Some are $0.00 premium depending on the State.

    Medicare Supplement is for those that have money. It has much more coverage, but for the expense, in many scenarios, it is not necessary when Medicare Advantage plans fit very well.

    Education.
    Been getting the flyers in the mail for a couple a years now. In a few more years I am going to really have to start researching the options.
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  5. #485
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    Been getting the flyers in the mail for a couple a years now. In a few more years I am going to really have to start researching the options.
    I took my 83 year old Mom off of Medicare Supplement at $360 per month. I could not justify the extravagant cost and I fought with the insurance company until they finally gave in and we put her on Medicare Advantage at about $60 per month. She pays only minimally out of pocket, but much less than the $4000 per year cost of MS.
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  6. #486
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Yeah it’s not perfect

    However you can pay $300 to see a consultant who then refers tests to GP eg bloods etc which are free

    Or you wait

    And if it’s urgent you get bumped up the list.

    And it doesn’t screw your credit or make you bankrupt if someone you love gets an illness or in an accident

    And our diabetics don’t die for want of insulin

    And an ambulance ride is free not thousands of dollars

    All meds cost prescription fees ..it’s like $15 for 3 months

    You cannot in any good conscience support the chitshow that is the American medical system

    I currently have a bit of med issue, my primary care has seen me 4 times, I’ve had 3 sets of blood tests and an MRI within 3 months ...cost is 0

    Oh and we have private healthcare too just haven’t used it since my last sports injury for physio therapy (which I could also have got on NHS but chose not to wait)
    Literally none of this is an issue for the vast majority of Americans. We also have access to the most cutting edge medical care in the world, I know which system I would prefer.
    Last edited by BrightThru2014; 11-22-2019 at 10:02 AM.
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  7. #487
    Anti-Circumcision JoshSP1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BrightThru2014 View Post
    Literally none of this is an issue for the vast majority of Americans. We also have access to the most cutting edge medical care in the world, I know which system I would prefer.
    This, universal supporters love taking rare exceptions and presenting them as the norm.
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  8. #488
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    For an accurate summary - you can't comprehend basic data points on how wasteful and inefficient the private insurance system is, think insured people having to pay hundreds of thousands out of pocket is an example of a good healthcare system despite that not happening anywhere else in the world, and think that parents whose children get brain tumours should either just let them die or get bankrupted from it because freedom.

    The good thing is medicare for all will be a reality regardless of some retarded lolbertarian's opinion of it, so this is a fairly fruitless conversation.
    This clown really just blamed the cost and inefficiency of private insurance on the private company and not the Government that created it through regulations. The whole system is slow inefficient and pricey because of government involvement, not from lack of it. You're trying to sound smart and well researched but you come off as an idiot to me srs.

    I vote to ban this idiot spewing lies and mis-truths from posting in this discussion. Just kidding, they should have their say Ill leave the censoring to the Left.
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  9. #489
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoshSP1985 View Post
    This, universal supporters love taking rare exceptions and presenting them as the norm.
    Thats their MO, same with guns. Same with immigration and on and on and on

    They use extraordinary examples and try to pass them as routinely occurring to sway opinion.
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  10. #490
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Excellent post. I agree. Thank you.
    Thanks, got you on recharge
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  11. #491
    Registered User dazitmayn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Thats their MO, same with guns. Same with immigration and on and on and on

    They use extraordinary examples and try to pass them as routinely occurring to sway opinion.
    and ironically when wait-times are brought up and people suffering because they are unable to get their needed operations they will say this is a rare exception
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  12. #492
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    This clown really just blamed the cost and inefficiency of private insurance on the private company and not the Government that created it through regulations. The whole system is slow inefficient and pricey because of government involvement, not from lack of it. You're trying to sound smart and well researched but you come off as an idiot to me srs.

    I vote to ban this idiot spewing lies and mis-truths from posting in this discussion. Just kidding, they should have their say Ill leave the censoring to the Left.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4511963/

    The reason administrative costs in the US are so high is because each hospital has to deal with many different insurance providers offering many different complex plans. Billing patients is incredibly complicated and time consuming. Some hospitals have to employ more billing staff than they do healthcare staff, to cope with this. This has absolutely nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the private insurance system in the US - countries with publicly funded healthcare have MUCH lower administration costs in every single case.

    Another reason for the high costs is the high cost of drugs and medical equipment. Individual hospitals have very little bargaining power with big pharma so generally cannot negotiate prices well, which is also why costs vary so much across the country. Again this has nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the fact that healthcare is governed by individual private providers. Drug costs in other countries where the public sector negotiates said costs, are a fraction of in the US.

    Another issue is physician compensation. Most physicians are compensated via fee-for-service type models, which lead to huge amounts of unnecessary visits, tests and treatments which rack up the costs while sometimes compromising necessary care or providing unnecessary care. Again nothing to do with muh government regulation.

    These are what healthcare economists identify as the main causes of high healthcare costs in the US compared to other nations, based on the data. None of them are a problem of government, rather they are a problem of the for-profit system which is why they don't happen anywhere else.

    Be honest with me man, you've never once researched this or committed any mental resources to it whatsoever. Some other conservative told you that healthcare is expensive because of muh government involvement which he heard from some other conservative which he parroted from some other equally ignorant cretin. And that's the extent of it.
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  13. #493
    Registered User Thankless's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4511963/

    The reason administrative costs in the US are so high is because each hospital has to deal with many different insurance providers offering many different complex plans. Billing patients is incredibly complicated and time consuming. Some hospitals have to employ more billing staff than they do healthcare staff, to cope with this. This has absolutely nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the private insurance system in the US - countries with publicly funded healthcare have MUCH lower administration costs in every single case.

    Another reason for the high costs is the high cost of drugs and medical equipment. Individual hospitals have very little bargaining power with big pharma so generally cannot negotiate prices well, which is also why costs vary so much across the country. Again this has nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the fact that healthcare is governed by individual private providers. Drug costs in other countries where the public sector negotiates said costs, are a fraction of in the US.

    Another issue is physician compensation. Most physicians are compensated via fee-for-service type models, which lead to huge amounts of unnecessary visits, tests and treatments which rack up the costs while sometimes compromising necessary care or providing unnecessary care. Again nothing to do with muh government regulation.

    These are what healthcare economists identify as the main causes of high healthcare costs in the US compared to other nations, based on the data. None of them are a problem of government, rather they are a problem of the for-profit system which is why they don't happen anywhere else.

    Be honest with me man, you've never once researched this or committed any mental resources to it whatsoever. Some other conservative told you that healthcare is expensive because of muh government involvement which he heard from some other conservative which he parroted from some other equally ignorant cretin. And that's the extent of it.


    Who exactly is stopping you from collective bargaining?

    Also, If medical service in the US is such a money maker, then tell me why competing services aren't being offered and dropping the price? Pharmaceutical companies can set their prices as sky high as they want with no little to no consequences BECAUSE the government through over-regulation and picking the winners and losers, has made competition illegal.

    How exactly would the country charging your medical services/care to other people lower the cost of said medical services?
    Last edited by Thankless; 11-22-2019 at 12:48 PM.
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  14. #494
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    This clown really just blamed the cost and inefficiency of private insurance on the private company and not the Government that created it through regulations. The whole system is slow inefficient and pricey because of government involvement, not from lack of it. You're trying to sound smart and well researched but you come off as an idiot to me srs.

    I vote to ban this idiot spewing lies and mis-truths from posting in this discussion. Just kidding, they should have their say Ill leave the censoring to the Left.
    He hates the private sector in general.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    He hates the private sector in general.
    I work in the private sector bud, which is more than you can say for yourself. You're never earned a dime which didn't come from taxpayer money yet you sit talking about how awful the idea of publicly funded services are.

    You're known as dumb dave for a good reason.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    I work in the private sector bud, which is more than you can say for yourself. You're never earned a dime which didn't come from taxpayer money yet you sit talking about how awful the idea of publicly funded services are.

    You're known as dumb dave for a good reason.
    You're right, I never worked in the private sector before I became a cop....

    Also, you working in the private sector kind of makes you a hypocrite.
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    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    You're known as dumb dave for a good reason.
    Dave is a superior person. Insults from you mean nothing.
    Helping one person may not change the world, but it could change the world for one person.

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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    You're right, I never worked in the private sector before I became a cop....

    Also, you working in the private sector kind of makes you a hypocrite.
    Telling everyone that taxation and public services are horrible while working in a public service funded by taxes is hypocritical. I just think healthcare needs a public option open to all, for which there's no hypocrisy if I work in an unrelated private industry.

    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Dave is a superior person. Insults from you mean nothing.
    You are a professional scam artist and not very smart to boot. Not sure why you are responding to me like I care.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post



    You are a professional scam artist and not very smart to boot. Not sure why you are responding to me like I care.
    Says a Jeremy Corbyn supporter

    Thankfully you are the only one that takes your posts seriously
    Elizabeth Warren
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4511963/

    The reason administrative costs in the US are so high is because each hospital has to deal with many different insurance providers offering many different complex plans. Billing patients is incredibly complicated and time consuming. Some hospitals have to employ more billing staff than they do healthcare staff, to cope with this. This has absolutely nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the private insurance system in the US - countries with publicly funded healthcare have MUCH lower administration costs in every single case.

    Another reason for the high costs is the high cost of drugs and medical equipment. Individual hospitals have very little bargaining power with big pharma so generally cannot negotiate prices well, which is also why costs vary so much across the country. Again this has nothing to do with government regulation and everything to do with the fact that healthcare is governed by individual private providers. Drug costs in other countries where the public sector negotiates said costs, are a fraction of in the US.

    Another issue is physician compensation. Most physicians are compensated via fee-for-service type models, which lead to huge amounts of unnecessary visits, tests and treatments which rack up the costs while sometimes compromising necessary care or providing unnecessary care. Again nothing to do with muh government regulation.

    These are what healthcare economists identify as the main causes of high healthcare costs in the US compared to other nations, based on the data. None of them are a problem of government, rather they are a problem of the for-profit system which is why they don't happen anywhere else.

    Be honest with me man, you've never once researched this or committed any mental resources to it whatsoever. Some other conservative told you that healthcare is expensive because of muh government involvement which he heard from some other conservative which he parroted from some other equally ignorant cretin. And that's the extent of it.
    For your first point, not entirely. Medicaid is actually incredibly complex to bill. Moreso than private. Medicare is less complex so you have two sides to it. You also have people abusing the system creating more administrative work so you have to take that into account. Alot of the admin costs are also passed down to hospitals and doctors and what not. Medicare/Medicaid also have a lot of regulations to sift through.

    For your second point, and who created that environment for the big pharma to have such a monopoly? If you look at patent law loopholes it is almost criminal. We at least partially fund the bill for the government to develop new drugs in which licensing deals with pharma companies were made. Government is the biggest funder of early research into these drugs ... which is later funded through big pharma. People basically pay twice, through taxes that go into the development of the drug and for the actual drug itself. With all the regulations that go into developing a drug, combined with the lack of competition, government is a big reason why drug prices are high.

    Third point, so how does introducing a socialized/universal model of health care where basically anybody can go as many times as they want for free prevent the amounts of unnecessary visits?

    Alot of what you have identified is not necessarily rectified by shifting to a medicare-for-all model. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have both put out Medicare for all plans but it isn't clear how all of that chit is going to be paid for? Bernie's plan covers only about 16-17 trillion of the conservative estimates of 30-40 trillion that it is going to cost over a decade. This is including the supposed savings. So unless he taxes the rich for 90% of their money, and everybody else for a lot more then he is proposing, this is not going to get covered. Warren's plan is a bit more mysterious as she doesn't go into specifics aside from im going to tax corporations and the rich. If some candidate actually came up with a more comprehensive plan on how they actually plan to fund it that is reasonable I think more people would be ears. How will imposed cost control by the government effect the quality of care provided by hospitals, supply of physicians, etc.
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    Originally Posted by dazitmayn View Post
    For your first point, not entirely. Medicaid is actually incredibly complex to bill. Moreso than private. Medicare is less complex so you have two sides to it. You also have people abusing the system creating more administrative work so you have to take that into account. Alot of the admin costs are also passed down to hospitals and doctors and what not. Medicare/Medicaid also have a lot of regulations to sift through.

    For your second point, and who created that environment for the big pharma to have such a monopoly? If you look at patent law loopholes it is almost criminal. We at least partially fund the bill for the government to develop new drugs in which licensing deals with pharma companies were made. Government is the biggest funder of early research into these drugs ... which is later funded through big pharma. People basically pay twice, through taxes that go into the development of the drug and for the actual drug itself. With all the regulations that go into developing a drug, combined with the lack of competition, government is a big reason why drug prices are high.

    Third point, so how does introducing a socialized/universal model of health care where basically anybody can go as many times as they want for free prevent the amounts of unnecessary visits?

    Alot of what you have identified is not necessarily rectified by shifting to a medicare-for-all model. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have both put out Medicare for all plans but it isn't clear how all of that chit is going to be paid for? Bernie's plan covers only about 16-17 trillion of the conservative estimates of 30-40 trillion that it is going to cost over a decade. This is including the supposed savings. So unless he taxes the rich for 90% of their money, and everybody else for a lot more then he is proposing, this is not going to get covered. Warren's plan is a bit more mysterious as she doesn't go into specifics aside from im going to tax corporations and the rich. If some candidate actually came up with a more comprehensive plan on how they actually plan to fund it that is reasonable I think more people would be ears. How will imposed cost control by the government effect the quality of care provided by hospitals, supply of physicians, etc.
    Gotta pass it, to see what's in it.
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    This clown really just blamed the cost and inefficiency of private insurance on the private company and not the Government that created it through regulations. The whole system is slow inefficient and pricey because of government involvement, not from lack of it. You're trying to sound smart and well researched but you come off as an idiot to me srs.

    I vote to ban this idiot spewing lies and mis-truths from posting in this discussion. Just kidding, they should have their say Ill leave the censoring to the Left.
    Actually reading the history of the healthcare system in the US is extremely interesting and instructive. It becomes immediately apparent that monopolies and government interference are what broke it. Specifically:

    1910: the American Medical Association lobbied the states to strengthen the regulation of medical licensure and allow their state AMA offices to interfere with medical schools. The states have been subsidizing the education of the number of doctors recommended by the AMA.

    1925: prescription drug monopolies begun after the federal government started allowing the patenting of drugs.

    1945: buyer monopolization begun after the Roosevelt Administration exempted the business of medical insurance from most federal regulation, including antitrust laws.

    1946: favored hospitals received federal subsidies.

    1951: employers become the dominant insurance buyer after the Internal Revenue Service declared group premiums tax-deductible.

    1972: the Nixon Administration started restricting the supply of hospitals by requiring federal certificate-of-need for the construction of medical facilities.

    1974: the Employee Retirement Income Security Act exempted employee health benefit plans offered by large employers (e.g., HMOs) from state regulations and lawsuits (e.g., brought by people denied coverage).

    1984: the Drug Price Competition and Patent Term Restoration Act permitted the extension of pharmaceutical patents beyond 20 years.
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    Telling everyone that taxation and public services are horrible while working in a public service funded by taxes is hypocritical. I just think healthcare needs a public option open to all, for which there's no hypocrisy if I work in an unrelated private industry.



    You are a professional scam artist and not very smart to boot. Not sure why you are responding to me like I care.
    Please, you want free college, free healthcare, and UBI, and never give a logical answer on where all of this money is going to come from, to support your fantasy.

    I mean, Jesus Christ guy, tell us how you feel about Cortez, most people think she's a moron, you probably worship her.
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