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  1. #31
    Registered User semitope's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dabbmw2002 View Post
    Unfortunately I've had to spend a lot of money on health issues over the last year but one thing I remind myself is even though I've spent a lot of money (thousands of dollars) is if I make a phone call, within a few days I get whatever is needed- MRIs, CT scan, X-ray, endoscopy.....whatever. I would rather pay money and get treated than get it for free and have to wait.
    this is possible with universal healthcare. There's usually a private alternative.
    Is there no limit to what people will believe if it is prefaced by the phrase,
    "Scientists say" ?

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  2. #32
    Platinum User chaunce54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Oh honey it’s ok the US healthcare system is 2 places above Cuba’s on the WHO ranking

    World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 USA
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    Yeah, but people come here from all over the world to get procedures done that they can't get in their own country...
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  3. #33
    Registered User Ephedra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    How are you in a better position. Do you mean you personally? What happens if you lose your job?

    I’m glad your healthcare isn’t as bad as it reads, because diabetics dying for want of insulin, and people avoiding ambulances cos of costs, and treatments being based on how much you can pay not how much you need treatment sounds pretty extreme to my ears
    Sounds like you've been listening to the alarmists trying to push for a socialist healthcare plan.

    I'm in a better position with my plan because I don't pay an exorbitant amount and I can see my doctor same day if I need to. Ambulances are covered by insurance when medically needed and average annual prescription costs for those covered is $150.

    What would happen if I lost my job? I'd get another. This is the United States where personal responsibility and freedom go hand in hand.
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  4. #34
    Registered User semitope's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chaunce54 View Post
    Yeah, but people come here from all over the world to get procedures done that they can't get in their own country...
    and americans go elsewhere for healthcare for various reasons. so it goes.
    Is there no limit to what people will believe if it is prefaced by the phrase,
    "Scientists say" ?

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  5. #35
    Registered User Rabbitjb's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ephedra View Post
    Sounds like you've been listening to the alarmists trying to push for a socialist healthcare plan.

    I'm in a better position with my plan because I don't pay an exorbitant amount and I can see my doctor same day if I need to. Ambulances are covered by insurance when medically needed and average annual prescription costs for those covered is $150.

    What would happen if I lost my job? I'd get another. This is the United States where personal responsibility and freedom go hand in hand.
    Alarmists? Like in OP? We can all be equally blinkered it seems

    And if you developed a chronic illness or had an accident and could no longer work?

    Seriously interested in how these things could affect the average American
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  6. #36
    Platinum User chaunce54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by semitope View Post
    and americans go elsewhere for healthcare for various reasons. so it goes.
    Yeah, they go to China to get those black market organs.
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  7. #37
    Registered User shmobin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Your issue is your drug companies and med centred charging exorbitant fees. Your insurance companies screwing you over and over

    And you seem to support it cos you’re worried about paying an extra $50 in tax and having some limitations placed on profits

    Unfathomable
    Categorically incorrect, but I know why you think that. You only have access to 20% of the medications that we do because your government bans the expensive **** they don't want to pay for.

    So while you think we are paying outrageous prices, at least we have access to every option that can save us.

    And Rx cost has very little to do with the insurance companies. Big Pharma controls the cost.
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  8. #38
    Registered User Ephedra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Alarmists? Like in OP? We can all be equally blinkered it seems

    And if you developed a chronic illness or had an accident and could no longer work?

    Seriously interested in how these things could affect the average American
    Then we have disability programs set up by the state and government that would cover me that I've been contributing to my whole life through taxes.

    You don't know this?
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  9. #39
    Somebody's daughter Retoaded's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    So how much is phi monthly?

    Out of interest my MRI appointment took 6 weeks from referral cos not urgent. My bloods were same day, with results returned within 3 days.

    I also have private health through work and it has limits but my original neuro was through that so I was seen privately within 48 hours and when my phi hit its limit he just transferred me to his NHS list ...no issues. He continues to monitor me via the NHS years later

    Pretty good value
    Mine is paid for by work, my wife is self employed and her plan is $260/month but its tax deductible so we get a third of it back. She has excellent coverage and benefits for that as described in the post you quoted.

    For my insurance my employer probably pays about the same amount.

    I don't think the US needs this giant overhaul, we just need open market competition across states for insurance and we need to regulate pharm prices and the cost of some services. Regulate malpractice suits.

    Almost ALL of the difference in expenses between the US and other countries are in senior citizens. And guess what, the US already runs healthcare for the elderly with medicare. What does that tell you?



    It tells me that the US government would be a disaster running healthcare for everyone.

    Something that is never talked about and should be. So, a huge portion of US healthcare expenses are outpatient and a huge portion of that is elderly. That means assisted living facilities, nursing homes, live in nurses, hospices, things like that. Its something like 30-35% of ALL healthcare spending. I don't know how common those things are in the UK or other places in Europe, I don't know if they are added in the same way when reporting healthcare per capita/etc....but if you look at the chart above, and you look at pharm prices....its a pretty FUKKING EASY CONCLUSION as to where we could drastically cut expenses in a couple key areas and bring us in line with the rest of the world. And it doesn't take a hair brained $50 trillion plan to do it.
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  10. #40
    Registered User Ephedra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    Mine is paid for by work, my wife is self employed and her plan is $260/month but its tax deductible so we get a third of it back. She has excellent coverage and benefits for that as described in the post you quoted.

    For my insurance my employer probably pays about the same amount.

    I don't think the US needs this giant overhaul, we just need open market competition across states for insurance and we need to regulate pharm prices and the cost of some services. Regulate malpractice suits.

    Almost ALL of the difference in expenses between the US and other countries are in senior citizens. And guess what, the US already runs healthcare for the elderly with medicare. What does that tell you?



    It tells me that the US government would be a disaster running healthcare for everyone.

    Something that is never talked about and should be. So, a huge portion of US healthcare expenses are outpatient and a huge portion of that is elderly. That means assisted living facilities, nursing homes, live in nurses, hospices, things like that. Its something like 30-35% of ALL healthcare spending. I don't know how common those things are in the UK or other places in Europe, I don't know if they are added in the same way when reporting healthcare per capita/etc....but if you look at the chart above, and you look at pharm prices....its a pretty FUKKING EASY CONCLUSION as to where we could drastically cut expenses in a couple key areas and bring us in line with the rest of the world. And it doesn't take a hair brained $50 trillion plan to do it.
    Great point!
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    Mine is paid for by work, my wife is self employed and her plan is $260/month but its tax deductible so we get a third of it back. She has excellent coverage and benefits for that as described in the post you quoted.

    For my insurance my employer probably pays about the same amount.

    I don't think the US needs this giant overhaul, we just need open market competition across states for insurance and we need to regulate pharm prices and the cost of some services. Regulate malpractice suits.

    Almost ALL of the difference in expenses between the US and other countries are in senior citizens. And guess what, the US already runs healthcare for the elderly with medicare. What does that tell you?



    It tells me that the US government would be a disaster running healthcare for everyone.

    Something that is never talked about and should be. So, a huge portion of US healthcare expenses are outpatient and a huge portion of that is elderly. That means assisted living facilities, nursing homes, live in nurses, hospices, things like that. Its something like 30-35% of ALL healthcare spending. I don't know how common those things are in the UK or other places in Europe, I don't know if they are added in the same way when reporting healthcare per capita/etc....but if you look at the chart above, and you look at pharm prices....its a pretty FUKKING EASY CONCLUSION as to where we could drastically cut expenses in a couple key areas and bring us in line with the rest of the world. And it doesn't take a hair brained $50 trillion plan to do it.
    Great post.
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  12. #42
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    until america fixes its health problems stemming from people being lazy and not caring about their health universal health care will just be a waste of time and money. i have seen to many obese people that continue to gorge themselves on fast food and sugary drinks knowing that it is causing their obesity and health problems. seen to many people with diabetes from poor diet choices continue to eat like chit while injecting insulin because they dont want to change their bad habits. too many smokers coughing up a lung then puffing on their cigarette more while complaining about the cost of their recent doctor visit.

    if everybody in america took active efforts to better their health we wouldnt need universal health care to begin with. so taxing me more to pay for their bad dietary/lifestyle habits while i try to live somewhat healthy is ridiculous and basically punishing those that do the right thing so you can reward others for their bad decisions.
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  13. #43
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Yeah it’s not perfect

    However you can pay $300 to see a consultant who then refers tests to GP eg bloods etc which are free

    Or you wait

    And if it’s urgent you get bumped up the list.

    And it doesn’t screw your credit or make you bankrupt if someone you love gets an illness or in an accident

    And our diabetics don’t die for want of insulin

    And an ambulance ride is free not thousands of dollars

    All meds cost prescription fees ..it’s like $15 for 3 months

    You cannot in any good conscience support the chitshow that is the American medical system

    I currently have a bit of med issue, my primary care has seen me 4 times, I’ve had 3 sets of blood tests and an MRI within 3 months ...cost is 0

    Oh and we have private healthcare too just haven’t used it since my last sports injury for physio therapy (which I could also have got on NHS but chose not to wait)
    So you have higher taxes due to "free" healthcare, and you also have to pay more if you want quality care?
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Your issue is your drug companies and med centred charging exorbitant fees. Your insurance companies screwing you over and over

    And you seem to support it cos you’re worried about paying an extra $50 in tax and having some limitations placed on profits

    Unfathomable
    You think it would be an extra 50 dollars in tax?

    Your entire argument is, "Sure this type of healthcare sucks.....but it's free....."
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    Originally Posted by NameOfPeace View Post
    until america fixes its health problems stemming from people being lazy and not caring about their health universal health care will just be a waste of time and money. i have seen to many obese people that continue to gorge themselves on fast food and sugary drinks knowing that it is causing their obesity and health problems. seen to many people with diabetes from poor diet choices continue to eat like chit while injecting insulin because they dont want to change their bad habits. too many smokers coughing up a lung then puffing on their cigarette more while complaining about the cost of their recent doctor visit.

    if everybody in america took active efforts to better their health we wouldnt need universal health care to begin with. so taxing me more to pay for their bad dietary/lifestyle habits while i try to live somewhat healthy is ridiculous and basically punishing those that do the right thing so you can reward others for their bad decisions.
    We don't have healthcare, we have "deathcare."
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    So you have higher taxes due to "free" healthcare, and you also have to pay more if you want quality care?
    Yes, she does. But it is passthrough cost because usually their 'additional' cost is subsidised by their employers, just like ours.
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    Originally Posted by semitope View Post
    and americans go elsewhere for healthcare for various reasons. so it goes.
    We do?
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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Well I seem to remember that conversation being about infant mortality and life expectancy

    But it’s ok the US healthcare system is 2 places above Cuba’s on the WHO ranking

    World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 USA
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    How come those with money from every single one of those countries, come to the US for treatment? How come we have the best hospitals in the world?
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    Mine is paid for by work, my wife is self employed and her plan is $260/month but its tax deductible so we get a third of it back. She has excellent coverage and benefits for that as described in the post you quoted.

    For my insurance my employer probably pays about the same amount.

    I don't think the US needs this giant overhaul, we just need open market competition across states for insurance and we need to regulate pharm prices and the cost of some services. Regulate malpractice suits.

    Almost ALL of the difference in expenses between the US and other countries are in senior citizens. And guess what, the US already runs healthcare for the elderly with medicare. What does that tell you?



    It tells me that the US government would be a disaster running healthcare for everyone.

    Something that is never talked about and should be. So, a huge portion of US healthcare expenses are outpatient and a huge portion of that is elderly. That means assisted living facilities, nursing homes, live in nurses, hospices, things like that. Its something like 30-35% of ALL healthcare spending. I don't know how common those things are in the UK or other places in Europe, I don't know if they are added in the same way when reporting healthcare per capita/etc....but if you look at the chart above, and you look at pharm prices....its a pretty FUKKING EASY CONCLUSION as to where we could drastically cut expenses in a couple key areas and bring us in line with the rest of the world. And it doesn't take a hair brained $50 trillion plan to do it.
    Unfortunately that graph, by the authors admission, is not based on rigorous analysis and does not hold up to scrutiny. It is badly sourced and outdated.

    The US gubmint spending on healthcare for the elderly and super elderly is actually in line with other countries.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    Unfortunately that graph, by the authors admission, is not based on rigorous analysis and does not hold up to scrutiny. It is badly sourced and outdated.

    The US gubmint spending on healthcare for the elderly and super elderly is actually in line with other countries.
    How about this one?





    or this one?





    or this one?





    looks like 3 different studies to me. The attributed studies are in the footer of the graphs. I suspect one is the same as the other graph since the countries match, but the other two are obviously different.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    Unfortunately that graph, by the authors admission, is not based on rigorous analysis and does not hold up to scrutiny. It is badly sourced and outdated.

    The US gubmint spending on healthcare for the elderly and super elderly is actually in line with other countries.
    Sweet source bro.
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    Originally Posted by shmobin View Post
    Sweet source bro.
    covfefe

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    Originally Posted by Rabbitjb View Post
    Alarmists? Like in OP? We can all be equally blinkered it seems

    And if you developed a chronic illness or had an accident and could no longer work?

    Seriously interested in how these things could affect the average American
    My OP was not alarmist. It is based on real data and experience.

    I respect your point of view and you are very intelligent. I am sure the UK plan works for some and if it works for you, I am glad you are covered.

    However, a similar healthcare like Medicare for All would not work in the US for reasons already mentioned.

    Thank you for your point of view.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    The only factoid that "article" provides is:

    This is, apparently, from a year 2005 study.
    That doesn't make the results inaccurate nor does it make it irrelevant to today. I'm looking for something that sustains your position that it is inaccurate bruh. And random website feedback comments from keyboard warriors doesn't count.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    So the first does match one of the latter three. One of the comments says a second one of the above latter three partially used the first also.

    But you are also linking a bunch of comments from anonymous interwebbers on a blog, so that doesn't exactly stand up to scrutiny either.

    Welcome to any additional studies that could be linked....
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    Originally Posted by Ephedra View Post
    You're so dramatic with your words. Health insurance in the US isn't THAT bad. Sounds like you've been watching too much BBC or CNN.

    It was much more affordable before Obamacare but it's safe to say my current mid-level health care plan still puts me in a better position than you.
    Yeah, this whole "everyone is bankrupt" and "$50,000 ambulance rides" are fringe cases. Or diabetics dying without insulin (I've never even heard this one). They're incredibly rare.

    Most people have their insurance and the system works. It's obviously not perfect. If we could just get prices up front it'd solve almost every issue.

    I also had to laugh at $300 consultant fee. That's like half a dozen co-pays. How is that an example of NHS working better?

    Finally, I want to point out that "healthcare rankings" are bogus. It's because our poor do actually have bad healthcare. But for the middle and upper end, US healthcare is by far the best in the world. Which is why people come to the US for treatment.
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    How about this one?





    or this one?





    or this one?





    looks like 3 different studies to me. The attributed studies are in the footer of the graphs. I suspect one is the same as the other graph since the countries match, but the other two are obviously different.
    The first two are different representations of your first chart by that squirrelly Fistcheck character. I'll look up the third one in a bit.
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    The first two are different representations of your first chart by that squirrelly Fistcheck character. I'll look up the third one in a bit.
    I'd rather you just provide another study that supports your claim that these are not accurate than link to a blogger site. I've never seen medical spending by age group except showing these types of results. If you could find something different that would be more valuable. I can show you a wordpress site with definitive proof that earth is flat or that bigfoot mated with a human to produce dog people.

    Now obviously old people use more medical care also.

    I also suspect that assisted living/nursing homes/home nurses may be more of a thing in the US than elsewhere in the world because our elderly are fat and diabetic and have crappy families that can't take care of them, and that type of care is a HUGE chunk of reported per capita spending in the US.
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    LOL at waiting 4 months for a CT scan in Europe when I can literally go get one in 30 minutes here. Yeah may be a couple hundred bucks so fukking what. With decent, and I just mean decent, healthcare plans its not even that. My wife broke her finger (bad) last year and had multiple MRIs, X-rays, Ct scans, saw the specialist 3 or 4 times, etc....she has an accident plan on her insurance and we were out of pocket $185 for the entire thing. I think that is something that Europeans who criticize US healthcare don't understand, is most of us with employer plans don't have any problems with healthcare whatsoever. Sure the insurance is expensive but so are more taxes.
    This. Went to the ER 6 months ago and had a CT, MRI, EKG, chest Xray and a sh*t load of blood work done in less than 90 mins. Co-pay was $160. Took about 4 hours for the results.
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    Originally Posted by semitope View Post
    this is possible with universal healthcare. There's usually a private alternative.
    Cool story bro

    Let's give the government 60% of our income, 25% sales tax and pay $10 for gas so we can have system that's so chitty that we need to buy additonal insurance with our already-taxed income
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