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  1. #451
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by katya422 View Post
    I don't believe this is true actually. Sure, there are a lot of people with self-destructive habits. It doesn't follow from that to have 1 in 3 people live to age 100. Last thing I remember reading on the subject said that US life expectancy was actually decreasing.

    If it chaps you that much to be on the hook for other peoples' poor choices then there could be a direct tax on companies that profit from those behaviors. IOW in theory we could make it very expensive to eat high calorie/low nutrition food, drink beer, smoke cigarettes...and then hope that a reduction in these bad habits would lead to decreased costs or that the money collected on them would render it a wash.



    Off the cuff lots of reasons:

    - greater demand overall for healthcare/normal supply and demand market mechanics
    - general inflation
    - insurance companies were required to cover things they may have excluded in the past like pre-existing conditions
    - at least in the marketplace top rates (by age) were tied to bottom rates (by age) which meant that for insurers to cover the costs of the most expensive customers they had to increase the rates of the least expensive customers/IOW cost shifting

    Obamacare is/was kind of a mess. We should have gotten something better. I'm sure that the people who created and supported it would say it was the best program they could actually get passed.
    So you want nanny state like taxes?

    https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blo...-health-crisis

    The latest federal data show that nearly 40 percent of American adults were obese in 2015–16, up from 34 percent in 2007–08. The prevalence of severe obesity also went up during the same period, from 5.7 percent to 7.7 percent.1 In 1985, no state had an obesity rate higher than 15 percent. In 2016, five states had rates over 35 percent.

    Why should my taxes go up to pay for their lifestyle?
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  2. #452
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StoliFun View Post
    I'd forgotten that you like to get hosed as soon as possible after the work day on Friday.
    Stoli, you still burning after I told you "Fuk you" here on the forum? All of your posts here have no value. You just troll people who don't fit your liberal ideology.

    I am convinced you are a drunk.
    Last edited by Mark1T; 11-16-2019 at 09:02 AM.
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  3. #453
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Lulz at every foreigner ITT advocating for that socialist garbage, while every American ITT with a brain sees through the scam. Nationalized healthcare would destroy our budget, produce less desirable outcomes, and have a massive negative effect on the economy. It is a sham, a fraud to bilk us out of more money and control in our lives.

    Blows my mind that some liberals will admit how terrible Obamacare has been, but advocate for national healthcare in the same breath...bruh...connect the freaking dots sheesh. Its like their brains are more open/capable of accepting two realities instead of one or something
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  4. #454
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Lulz at every foreigner ITT advocating for that socialist garbage, while every American ITT with a brain sees through the scam. Nationalized healthcare would destroy our budget, produce less desirable outcomes, and have a massive negative effect on the economy. It is a sham, a fraud to bilk us out of more money and control in our lives.

    Blows my mind that some liberals will admit how terrible Obamacare has been, but advocate for national healthcare in the same breath...bruh...connect the freaking dots sheesh. Its like their brains are more open/capable of accepting two realities instead of one or something
    They just hate their country, and would like the US to degrade to their level.
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  5. #455
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Lulz at every foreigner ITT advocating for that socialist garbage, while every American ITT with a brain sees through the scam. Nationalized healthcare would destroy our budget, produce less desirable outcomes, and have a massive negative effect on the economy. It is a sham, a fraud to bilk us out of more money and control in our lives.

    Blows my mind that some liberals will admit how terrible Obamacare has been, but advocate for national healthcare in the same breath...bruh...connect the freaking dots sheesh. Its like their brains are more open/capable of accepting two realities instead of one or something
    Exactly and why I posted this thread. European countries to various degrees have implemented socialized healthcare and nationalizing industries. The results is a heavy burden on economies. isingmodel said last night before the other thread was deleted, that France and Sweden were always capitalist. That is a bold face lie, but consistent with his posts. Stoli comes here to posts that he wants Single Payer/Medicare for All with no explanation of his position. I and others have made their positions. It seems that the European models of social programs are not a good lesson for the people hell-bent on socialized healthcare in the US.

    As a prime example of failed Socialism and failed Socialized Healthcare: Sweden, for some odd reason was ready for a socialist experiment in the early 1970s. The Swedes were hardworking, optimistic, wealthy, and trusting of their politicians. As social programs were implemented in the 70s and 80s, public spending almost doubled and labor markets became regulated. The new welfare state, however, appeared to enhance Sweden’s already strong economy with large-scale redistribution and high taxes.

    This brief period when socialism seemed to work, is the model promoted by Bernie and AOC. Today, 36% of Americans are sympathetic to socialism compared to only 9 percent of Swedes as a result of their very negative experience. This is because Sanders and AOC only point to the 30-year episode of socialism’s artificial success before Sweden crumbled under its reality.

    Reversing Sweden’s traditions of small government and an open economy disintegrated its successful business climate. Big companies like IKEA either evaded taxes or left the country. Athletes like Björn Borg and entrepreneurs fled the country. High inflation raged and not a single net job was created in the private sector. The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits that their hardworking parents once despised.

    Sweden not only fell from being the 4th richest country to the 14th richest country, but its very nature as a country changed. An authoritarian-like government was necessary to ensure the population did not abuse its welfare system. Sweden’s democracy was sliding into a dictatorship, and the Swedish people were not pleased.

    The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the 80s. The 90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

    Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

    'Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,' quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

    The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure.

    Education and lessons from other countries that have attempted socialism and so-called democratic socialism must be emphasized to the US public. Free healthcare sounds so good, but it is far from free and it would result in one of the most catastrophic failures the US has experience far outweighing Obamacare's abysmal failure.

    So, you guys like isingmodel and Stoli, who believe Medicare for All / Single Payer is a good fit for the US, instead of trolling, make your case. I have others have made ours. The above is the Swedish example and I haven't even posted about France's failure, yet.
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  6. #456
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Exactly and why I posted this thread. European countries to various degrees have implemented socialized healthcare and nationalizing industries. The results is a heavy burden on economies. isingmodel said last night before the other thread was deleted, that France and Sweden were always capitalist. That is a bold face lie, but consistent with his posts. Stoli comes here to posts that he wants Single Payer/Medicare for All with no explanation of his position. I and others have made their positions. It seems that the European models of social programs are not a good lesson for the people hell-bent on socialized healthcare in the US.

    As a prime example of failed Socialism and failed Socialized Healthcare: Sweden, for some odd reason was ready for a socialist experiment in the early 1970s. The Swedes were hardworking, optimistic, wealthy, and trusting of their politicians. As social programs were implemented in the 70s and 80s, public spending almost doubled and labor markets became regulated. The new welfare state, however, appeared to enhance Sweden’s already strong economy with large-scale redistribution and high taxes.

    This brief period when socialism seemed to work, is the model promoted by Bernie and AOC. Today, 36% of Americans are sympathetic to socialism compared to only 9 percent of Swedes as a result of their very negative experience. This is because Sanders and AOC only point to the 30-year episode of socialism’s artificial success before Sweden crumbled under its reality.

    Reversing Sweden’s traditions of small government and an open economy disintegrated its successful business climate. Big companies like IKEA either evaded taxes or left the country. Athletes like Björn Borg and entrepreneurs fled the country. High inflation raged and not a single net job was created in the private sector. The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits that their hardworking parents once despised.

    Sweden not only fell from being the 4th richest country to the 14th richest country, but its very nature as a country changed. An authoritarian-like government was necessary to ensure the population did not abuse its welfare system. Sweden’s democracy was sliding into a dictatorship, and the Swedish people were not pleased.

    The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the 80s. The 90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

    Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

    'Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,' quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

    The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure.

    Education and lessons from other countries that have attempted socialism and so-called democratic socialism must be emphasized to the US public. Free healthcare sounds so good, but it is far from free and it would result in one of the most catastrophic failures the US has experience far outweighing Obamacare's abysmal failure.

    So, you guys like isingmodel and Stoli, who believe Medicare for All / Single Payer is a good fit for the US, instead of trolling, make your case. I have others have made ours. The above is the Swedish example and I haven't even posted about France's failure, yet.
    Damn, what a good post and excellent cautionary tale. Sweden is an EXCELLENT example of what happens when you give the government all of the power and authority. They are being bombed and raped RIGHT NOW at a record pace never before seen in their history, and the govt is soo powerful and wuthoritarian that if you dare speak out about it they will destroy you.

    That part about it working at first, then collapsing into disaster is soo accurate. That is exactly how it would happen here, in the beginning outcomes would be great, but slowly over time the bill would come due and it would absolutely wreck us, completely.

    Look at Venezuela- same timeline and outcome
    Look at Sweden- same timeline and outcome.

    There would be a short term boost while the government is busy stealing and spending all the private wealth they can get their hands on, until they burn through that the rich flee and taxes have to be cranked up to try and keep pace. All they while the govt and politicians lie to our face and spew excuse after excuse placing the blame on everything BUT the cause of the problems. Fuk. All. That. Noise. I want nothing to do with it.
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  7. #457
    Registered User andy0w's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Within the ‘Medicare-for-all’ debate in US, Britain sounds alarm over historic waiting lists.

    Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care


    Nearly a quarter of a million British patients have been waiting more than six months to receive planned medical treatment from the National Health Service, according to a recent report from the Royal College of Surgeons. More than 36,000 have been in treatment queues for nine months or more.

    Long waits for care are endemic to government-run, single-payer systems like the NHS. Yet some U.S. lawmakers want to import that model from across the pond. That would be a massive blunder.


    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi.../#1d3ff4d436b8

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ami...toric-waitlist

    https://mises.org/wire/single-payer-...sal-healthcare

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/1419339001/

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  8. #458
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    Oh look, here comes the triggered leftest that had to create a new account.
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  9. #459
    Registered User andy0w's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peter Ruby View Post
    But our will be better!!

    Not srs. How can people think this is a good idea?

    Cutting funding to healthcare is not a good idea.

    Especially with the plague coming from China.
    CDC: Flu-like symptoms. Can be cured if treated early.
    NHS: Don't bother seeing a doctor for a cold or flu.
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  10. #460
    Registered User knightofday's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by csun719 View Post
    There’s plenty of money in the United States to provide health care for everyone you dumb ass. Most of the money is controlled by greedy corporations and people in finance including banksters and hedge fund traders.
    Typical alt liberal account blaming and vilifying the rich and blaming all society's problems on them.

    "The obvious answer is to rob every wealthy person blind, dont you see?! It will work, trust me!"
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  11. #461
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Damn, what a good post and excellent cautionary tale. Sweden is an EXCELLENT example of what happens when you give the government all of the power and authority. They are being bombed and raped RIGHT NOW at a record pace never before seen in their history, and the govt is soo powerful and wuthoritarian that if you dare speak out about it they will destroy you.

    That part about it working at first, then collapsing into disaster is soo accurate. That is exactly how it would happen here, in the beginning outcomes would be great, but slowly over time the bill would come due and it would absolutely wreck us, completely.

    Look at Venezuela- same timeline and outcome
    Look at Sweden- same timeline and outcome.

    There would be a short term boost while the government is busy stealing and spending all the private wealth they can get their hands on, until they burn through that the rich flee and taxes have to be cranked up to try and keep pace. All they while the govt and politicians lie to our face and spew excuse after excuse placing the blame on everything BUT the cause of the problems. Fuk. All. That. Noise. I want nothing to do with it.
    Thanks, my man.

    Originally Posted by andy0w View Post
    The tories cut spending to pay for a new aircraft carrier.

    They called it austerity.
    Not relative.

    Originally Posted by csun719 View Post
    Mark1T has so many meltdowns it’s hilarious.
    It's no surprise you were perma-banned from the O35 section 6 years ago. You were a drunk then and a drunk now. No wonder you support Medicare for All - you wouldn't qualify for health insurance without it. Kevin was an ass and drunk, by the way.
    Last edited by Mark1T; 11-18-2019 at 10:44 AM.
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  12. #462
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    Originally Posted by csun719 View Post
    Wrong dumb ass. I support a reasonable solution to insure everyone. You and dumb ass Trump don’t want any solution. Your meltdowns are funny.
    The definition of a meltdown is 6 years of trolling with no less than 3500 alt accounts, you pissed off so much and obvious mental illness and a hopeless drunk.

    That is the ultimate coward.
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  13. #463
    Cold Hearted SOB Dave22reborn's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Lulz at every foreigner ITT advocating for that socialist garbage, while every American ITT with a brain sees through the scam. Nationalized healthcare would destroy our budget, produce less desirable outcomes, and have a massive negative effect on the economy. It is a sham, a fraud to bilk us out of more money and control in our lives.

    Blows my mind that some liberals will admit how terrible Obamacare has been, but advocate for national healthcare in the same breath...bruh...connect the freaking dots sheesh. Its like their brains are more open/capable of accepting two realities instead of one or something
    It's just strange how someone from the UK is telling us how to run things, and who we should be voting for....
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  14. #464
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    The definition of a meltdown is 6 years of trolling with no less than 3500 alt accounts, you pissed off so much and obvious mental illness and a hopeless drunk.

    That is the ultimate coward.
    Who the hell is this guy?
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  15. #465
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Who the hell is this guy?
    A very mentally ill, angry low-life.
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    Originally Posted by ImBunky View Post
    They just hate their country, and would like the US to degrade to their level.
    we just hate your retarded version of america

    your version sucks bro

    we hate it

    we love the real version of america - one that's way better than yours. your version is stupid and sh*tty. we're trying to progress beyond it.

    you probably cant stop the progress but hey youre half way to 112 years old so you still have some time to vote for the things you believe are best for our country.
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    Originally Posted by sandaltan View Post
    we just hate your retarded version of america

    your version sucks bro

    we hate it

    we love the real version of america - one that's way better than yours. your version is stupid and sh*tty. we're trying to progress beyond it.

    you probably cant stop the progress but hey youre half way to 112 years old so you still have some time to vote for the things you believe are best for our country.
    Except people like you aren't progressive, you're regressive.
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    One of the rising costs for the NHS relates to genetic disorders from Muslim inbreeding.

    Sounds like a fake thing, but many cultures that are dominated by Islam also practice cousin marriage.

    Plenty of mainstream media coverage and data from the NHS.

    Genetic disorders tend to be more costly than many diseases.
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    Exactly and why I posted this thread. European countries to various degrees have implemented socialized healthcare and nationalizing industries. The results is a heavy burden on economies. isingmodel said last night before the other thread was deleted, that France and Sweden were always capitalist. That is a bold face lie, but consistent with his posts. Stoli comes here to posts that he wants Single Payer/Medicare for All with no explanation of his position. I and others have made their positions. It seems that the European models of social programs are not a good lesson for the people hell-bent on socialized healthcare in the US.

    As a prime example of failed Socialism and failed Socialized Healthcare: Sweden, for some odd reason was ready for a socialist experiment in the early 1970s. The Swedes were hardworking, optimistic, wealthy, and trusting of their politicians. As social programs were implemented in the 70s and 80s, public spending almost doubled and labor markets became regulated. The new welfare state, however, appeared to enhance Sweden’s already strong economy with large-scale redistribution and high taxes.

    This brief period when socialism seemed to work, is the model promoted by Bernie and AOC. Today, 36% of Americans are sympathetic to socialism compared to only 9 percent of Swedes as a result of their very negative experience. This is because Sanders and AOC only point to the 30-year episode of socialism’s artificial success before Sweden crumbled under its reality.

    Reversing Sweden’s traditions of small government and an open economy disintegrated its successful business climate. Big companies like IKEA either evaded taxes or left the country. Athletes like Björn Borg and entrepreneurs fled the country. High inflation raged and not a single net job was created in the private sector. The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits that their hardworking parents once despised.

    Sweden not only fell from being the 4th richest country to the 14th richest country, but its very nature as a country changed. An authoritarian-like government was necessary to ensure the population did not abuse its welfare system. Sweden’s democracy was sliding into a dictatorship, and the Swedish people were not pleased.

    The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the 80s. The 90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

    Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

    'Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,' quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

    The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure.

    Education and lessons from other countries that have attempted socialism and so-called democratic socialism must be emphasized to the US public. Free healthcare sounds so good, but it is far from free and it would result in one of the most catastrophic failures the US has experience far outweighing Obamacare's abysmal failure.

    So, you guys like isingmodel and Stoli, who believe Medicare for All / Single Payer is a good fit for the US, instead of trolling, make your case. I have others have made ours. The above is the Swedish example and I haven't even posted about France's failure, yet.
    Originally Posted by knightofday View Post
    Damn, what a good post and excellent cautionary tale. Sweden is an EXCELLENT example of what happens when you give the government all of the power and authority. They are being bombed and raped RIGHT NOW at a record pace never before seen in their history, and the govt is soo powerful and wuthoritarian that if you dare speak out about it they will destroy you.

    That part about it working at first, then collapsing into disaster is soo accurate. That is exactly how it would happen here, in the beginning outcomes would be great, but slowly over time the bill would come due and it would absolutely wreck us, completely.

    Look at Venezuela- same timeline and outcome
    Look at Sweden- same timeline and outcome.

    There would be a short term boost while the government is busy stealing and spending all the private wealth they can get their hands on, until they burn through that the rich flee and taxes have to be cranked up to try and keep pace. All they while the govt and politicians lie to our face and spew excuse after excuse placing the blame on everything BUT the cause of the problems. Fuk. All. That. Noise. I want nothing to do with it.
    Knight, I meant to say that was an excellent post of yours, as well. You get it.
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    So to summarize:

    - Paying your college loan: good. Paying your car loan: good. Paying your mortgage: good. Paying your electricity bills: good. Paying your medical bills: MONSTROUS!!!! Because.... muh feelings!
    - Only a small minority of the US population isn't insured or has bad coverage because they can't afford it. Solution: let's make a system based on this small minority. It won't work well for everyone else but... muh feelings!
    - The current US system is overpriced. Solution: guberment!!!! Because guberment has a great track record of not wasting money, I just can't remember what that track record is but it must be there. Trust me!
    - The US should be like other countries that have nothing in common with the US because... because... it works THERE!!!

    Damn... I'm convinced!!!
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  21. #471
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    So to summarize:

    - Paying your college loan: good. Paying your car loan: good. Paying your mortgage: good. Paying your electricity bills: good. Paying your medical bills: MONSTROUS!!!! Because.... muh feelings!
    - Only a small minority of the US population isn't insured or has bad coverage because they can't afford it. Solution: let's make a system based on this small minority. It won't work well for everyone else but... muh feelings!
    - The current US system is overpriced. Solution: guberment!!!! Because guberment has a great track record of not wasting money, I just can't remember what that track record is but it must be there. Trust me!
    - The US should be like other countries that have nothing in common with the US because... because... it works THERE!!!

    Damn... I'm convinced!!!
    For an accurate summary - you can't comprehend basic data points on how wasteful and inefficient the private insurance system is, think insured people having to pay hundreds of thousands out of pocket is an example of a good healthcare system despite that not happening anywhere else in the world, and think that parents whose children get brain tumours should either just let them die or get bankrupted from it because freedom.

    The good thing is medicare for all will be a reality regardless of some retarded lolbertarian's opinion of it, so this is a fairly fruitless conversation.
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  22. #472
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    For an accurate summary - you can't comprehend basic data points on how wasteful and inefficient the private insurance system is,
    Sure it is. That's because it's not a free market, the government insists in regulating the chit out of it, with the result of making it a mess. Because the government manages to ruin everything it touches. And you want it to run the healthcare altogether. Even though it ruins everything it touches. That's smart....


    think insured people having to pay hundreds of thousands out of pocket is an example of a good healthcare system despite that not happening anywhere else in the world, and think that parents whose children get brain tumours should either just let them die or get bankrupted from it because freedom.
    Please do give us real life examples of children with brain tumors left to die because they were refused treatment.
    Also please explain how not paying your bills is freedom. In fact, don't bother, I am sick of hearing your parasite mentality, it makes me vomit.

    The good thing is medicare for all will be a reality regardless of some retarded lolbertarian's opinion of it, so this is a fairly fruitless conversation.
    While you are in the business of telling the future, can you give me the winning lottery numbers? That way I can get the hell out of this country in case your prediction comes true.
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  23. #473
    High Plains Lifter Mark1T's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    For an accurate summary - you can't comprehend basic data points on how wasteful and inefficient the private insurance system is, think insured people having to pay hundreds of thousands out of pocket is an example of a good healthcare system despite that not happening anywhere else in the world, and think that parents whose children get brain tumours should either just let them die or get bankrupted from it because freedom.

    The good thing is medicare for all will be a reality regardless of some retarded lolbertarian's opinion of it, so this is a fairly fruitless conversation.
    No one with brain matter is interested to duplicate the horrific financial irresponsibility that Britain and other European countries have made in their experimentation with social programs. Others and I have already shot you down with verifiable facts.

    There are solutions to improving what the US has without going down the ridiculous financial black hole with your Marxist European Socialist bullshiit.
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  24. #474
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    Originally Posted by Mark1T View Post
    No one with brain matter is interested to duplicate the horrific financial irresponsibility that Britain and other European countries have made in their experimentation with social programs. Others and I have already shot you down with verifiable facts.

    There are solutions to improving what the US has without going down the ridiculous financial black hole with your Marxist European Socialist bullshiit.
    You are yet to present even one data point about anything ITT.

    Pls go Mark, and stick to being a professional scam artist.
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  25. #475
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Sure it is. That's because it's not a free market, the government insists in regulating the chit out of it, with the result of making it a mess. Because the government manages to ruin everything it touches. And you want it to run the healthcare altogether. Even though it ruins everything it touches. That's smart....



    Please do give us real life examples of children with brain tumors left to die because they were refused treatment.
    Also please explain how not paying your bills is freedom. In fact, don't bother, I am sick of hearing your parasite mentality, it makes me vomit.


    While you are in the business of telling the future, can you give me the winning lottery numbers? That way I can get the hell out of this country in case your prediction comes true.
    You're a demagogue not a rational thinking person. Zero facts to back up anything you say, just meaningless sophistry about gubmint bad.

    Your response to your friend getting bankrupted because of their kids medical bills was "that's life, deal with it bucko" In other words, either they should just accept bankruptcy or **** it just let their kid die why don't they.

    Most of us who arent retards can see that's an awful way for a healthcare system in a wealthy developed nation to operate. We see that nowhere else in the world is healthcare so asinine, for good reason. We see how Americas predominantly private system leads to huge costs and waste compared to countries with universal coverage, while leaving many without adequate coverage.

    The opinion in the US is shifting - support for a form of universal coverage is high among the population and that will only increase. The best way to do it would be to expand Medicare to cover anyone who wants it whilst also keeping private insurance for those who want to stay on it. Having the option of Medicare open to all will undoubtedly put pressure on private companies to reduce their costs too, which is what also keeps private costs reasonable in places like the UK .

    It's like you just can't accept that Ron Paul lost in 2012 and that libertarianism is a **** tier internet meme and not an actual political philosophy.
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  26. #476
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    For an accurate summary - you can't comprehend basic data points on how wasteful and inefficient the private insurance system is, think insured people having to pay hundreds of thousands out of pocket is an example of a good healthcare system despite that not happening anywhere else in the world, and think that parents whose children get brain tumours should either just let them die or get bankrupted from it because freedom.

    The good thing is medicare for all will be a reality regardless of some retarded lolbertarian's opinion of it, so this is a fairly fruitless conversation.
    Why don't we just make all insurance universal then?
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    Originally Posted by isingmodel View Post
    You're a demagogue not a rational thinking person. Zero facts to back up anything you say, just meaningless sophistry about gubmint bad.
    Well you have been given every opportunity to tell us what the government has run well. And I mean you have been asked 10 times minum and have not given one single example. I can't think of any either so saying the government ruins everything it touches is not demagoguery, it's an observation of reality. But hey, since you apparently know of all these things the government runs fabulously, go ahead and share them with the rest of us.

    Your response to your friend getting bankrupted because of their kids medical bills was "that's life, deal with it bucko" In other words, either they should just accept bankruptcy or **** it just let their kid die why don't they.
    Funny that you are complaining about it, they aren't. Maybe because they find the concept of paying your bills absolutely normal, and maybe because they paid their bills and now they are doing great, living a comfortable life. But you are complaining... for them! Wow!

    Most of us who arent retards can see that's an awful way for a healthcare system in a wealthy developed nation to operate. We see that nowhere else in the world is healthcare so asinine, for good reason. We see how Americas predominantly private system leads to huge costs and waste compared to countries with universal coverage, while leaving many without adequate coverage.
    My faucet leaks so I set fire to the house. Oh wait, it's not one or the other! Imagine that! I can, geez... I don't know... fix the faucet and be better off than burning down the house! You seriously can't fathom any other alternative between "government interference in private business sucks" and "government runs everything"? It's one or the other?

    The opinion in the US is shifting - support for a form of universal coverage is high among the population and that will only increase. The best way to do it would be to expand Medicare to cover anyone who wants it whilst also keeping private insurance for those who want to stay on it. Having the option of Medicare open to all will undoubtedly put pressure on private companies to reduce their costs too, which is what also keeps private costs reasonable in places like the UK .
    Well, in the 30s the opinion in Germany was shifting too. Doesn't mean it was shifting in the right direction.

    It's like you just can't accept that Ron Paul lost in 2012 and that libertarianism is a **** tier internet meme and not an actual political philosophy.
    Ohhh, someone's triggered! Need a box of crayons and a safe space?
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  28. #478
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn View Post
    Why don't we just make all insurance universal then?
    That's what Obamacare tried to do, and the problem is that private insurance companies don't want to cover/adequately cover large sections of the population because it isn't profitable to them. So if the government forces private insurance to give everyone coverage then you end up with constantly rising premiums yet insurance companies still find ways to under-insure people, refuse to cover plenty of necessary care, and charge them massively out of pocket wherever possible.

    Whereas if you expand Medicare to allow anyone to use it (if they wish), then everyone is covered regardless of circumstance, and there is actually an incentive for private insurers to keep costs low. This is one of the reasons why private healthcare in countries like the UK is not extortionately expensive - they know anyone can just go to the NHS at any time (as most people do) so they have to keep prices competitive.
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  29. #479
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Well you have been given every opportunity to tell us what the government has run well. And I mean you have been asked 10 times minum and have not given one single example. I can't think of any either so saying the government ruins everything it touches is not demagoguery, it's an observation of reality. But hey, since you apparently know of all these things the government runs fabulously, go ahead and share them with the rest of us.



    Funny that you are complaining about it, they aren't. Maybe because they find the concept of paying your bills absolutely normal, and maybe because they paid their bills and now they are doing great, living a comfortable life. But you are complaining... for them! Wow!



    My faucet leaks so I set fire to the house. Oh wait, it's not one or the other! Imagine that! I can, geez... I don't know... fix the faucet and be better off than burning down the house! You seriously can't fathom any other alternative between "government interference in private business sucks" and "government runs everything"? It's one or the other?



    Well, in the 30s the opinion in Germany was shifting too. Doesn't mean it was shifting in the right direction.



    Ohhh, someone's triggered! Need a box of crayons and a safe space?
    Medicare. That wasn't difficult. Medicare costs are growing at a lower rate than private insurance, administration costs are significantly lower, and with ironing out some of the issues like fee-for-service compensation and replacing them with capitation prepayment, it can be even better. Not that Medicare is even directly run by the federal government itself, it's simply funded by the federal government to provide coverage, so I have no idea why your aspergers is triggering so hard here.

    And nobody with two brain cells to rub together finds the idea of medical bankruptcy "absolutely normal". The US is the only developed country in the world where such an absurdity is actually a common occurrence, when it is entirely avoidable if your system wasn't such hot garbage.

    You better actually grow a pair and leave the country as you claimed you would, btw.
    "What has destroyed every previous civilization has been the tendency to the unequal distribution of wealth and power" - Henry George

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  30. #480
    Registered User dazitmayn's Avatar
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    Age: 49
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    Imagine a government giving free food/housing to 20% of the American population. They get as much food as they possibly want. Food and housing supply is controlled almost exclusively by an association whom the government has allowed to set supply for, funds and give regulatory powers to. This association limits supply in the face of artificially increased demand, people abuse the system by taking more than is needed creating very high costs. They do this by creating extremely high barriers into entry, unnecessary amounts of regulatory compliance. All grocery stores, restaurants and housing must all be approved by this one association that controls mostly everything, including how much housing can be built and how much food can be sold if they even do comply.

    As a result of this, artificially lower supply and artificially higher demand, food and housing prices have been jacked up for everybody else that don't qualify for free food/housing. Not to mention that the average person is paying taxes to subsidize free housing and food. A double whammy.

    If you need certain types of food and housing, that's awesome. Because the government has basically eliminated competition of other producers and patent laws have allowed these basically monopolies at this point to jack up the prices on these products. But but but it's all the corporations fault! They're greedy and evil! Meanwhile many communities are left without adequate housing and grocery stores. And the ones that qualify for free food and housing are also complaining because reduced quality and higher wait times. Because of this, some have resorted to creating illegal stores and housing to curb the limited and skyrocketing supply. Some even travel to get their food because it is much cheaper there.

    This is the health care system in a nutshell. and let's not even talk about third-party insurance systems that are in bed with doctors and pharma to basically charge the most, for the least amount and cut costs. some see this as a failure of capitalism but this is mostly a failure of government sticking their hands excessively in something they shouldn't and the markets responding in kind, with the government doing nothing to correct this unmitigated disaster. Lobbying and donations from organizations who basically have an absolute say/control is also a problem that ensures changes don't happen. Encouraging more competition, more options, generally less regulatory barriers is a good thing.

    Health care being a human right sounds great and it should be what any "compassionate" human being should believe in right? I mean in a perfect world sure. But not many people actually know what it means and what the actual consequences of making health care a right actually are. You are basically creating an obligation on another person/party to provide this right, and another party to enforce such rights. The government isn't exactly an expert on supply and demand, how much needs to produce, what is the demand, rather than the companies and industries themselves who would be much more efficient at it as well as not be restricted by a federal budget. This leads to alot of inefficiencies, cost-cutting, restricted supply, restricted options and artificial demand. Which in the case of health care creates massive wait times, cancellations, an overburdened system, etc.

    Yes it's unfortunate that people declare bankrupt because of unforeseen medical costs and people foregoing treatment because of cost. It's also unfortunate that people can't get the treatment they need because of massive wait times, overcrowded hospitals and inferior quality care. In some cases people have died because of it. Canada is the perfect example of a country that has completely de-incentivized medically necessary procedures in private settings and have forced doctors to be public practitioners. Is that any less/more moral than somebody dying because they can't afford costs. One person died because they couldn't afford it vs one person died because they lacked access to it. Either way that person is dead. A person can't afford living expenses because of taxes so is forced out of his home because he has to subsidize people who don't even give a chit about their own health and abuse the system. Is that right or moral?

    People would rather use feelings than consider reality.

    The current system isn't perfect and has a lot of flaws but that doesn't mean switch to a universal/socialized system at all. I also think it's a mistake to repeal Obamacare without some sort of long-term viable solution. I believe a solution to our health care problems is possible with the framework we have now. With all the problems that government has created, I fail to see how more government is a solution. I believe there is a way that health care can be for the most part affordable and accessible for almost everybody when they need it, which I think should be the goal.
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