Game Changers Movie Discussion Thread. The science does not add up.

[Southgeorge]

To be fair, the beginning was stupid and I almost turned it off. The part about people thinking you need protein for energy. But then they answered the real question about getting big/ripped while vegan. I do feel like all those guys got big off protein/roids then made the switch which is a lot easier than getting big while vegan. Also, the guy conducting the boner experiment did admit it wasn't a real study but he's trying to gather enough data.

It was interesting. I have thought about it for inflammation purposes. Never met a horrible looking vegan so they must be doing something right.

[broganoff]

It was interesting. I have thought about it for inflammation purposes. Never met a horrible looking vegan so they must be doing something right.

Dunno, seems that a lot of plant based foods are inflammatory as well. Lots of people have inflammation from grains, gluten, legumes, cruciferous veggies, nightshades, peanuts, etc.

Individual variation aside, IIRC beef is typically one of the least inflammatory foods when averaged across populations. Seems that the biggest culprits for inflammation from animal products would be from dairy.

[AdamWW]

Dunno, seems that a lot of plant based foods are inflammatory as well. Lots of people have inflammation from grains, gluten, legumes, cruciferous veggies, nightshades, peanuts, etc.

Individual variation aside, IIRC beef is typically one of the least inflammatory foods when averaged across populations. Seems that the biggest culprits for inflammation from animal products would be from dairy.

inflammation measured by what?

[Jcart159]

Never met a horrible looking vegan so they must be doing something right.

Do you live in a big city? Have you ever been somewhere like Portland where veganism is fairly mainstream?

I've definitely seen my fair share of obese vegans lol. They eat vegan sweets like cupcakes, pasta, and chips for all of their meals. All of them.

[AdamWW]

Never met a horrible looking vegan so they must be doing something right.

I've never met an ugly person who went vegan and became hot, so....

[Mrpb]

Dunno, seems that a lot of plant based foods are inflammatory as well. Lots of people have inflammation from grains, gluten, legumes, cruciferous veggies, nightshades, peanuts, etc.

While many people may claim such things, most of the scientific literature supports the opposite: whole grains and legumes have been shown to be anti inflammatory in many studies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5338145/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29320413
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25244229
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139128
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28605204
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23398387

[broganoff]

inflammation measured by what?

Good point, which could go either way I guess.

[broganoff]

While many people may claim such things, most of the scientific literature supports the opposite: whole grains and legumes have been shown to be anti inflammatory in many studies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5338145/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29320413
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25244229
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139128
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28605204
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23398387

Fair point, therefore refined grains and sugars may be bigger culprits and worth distinguishing?

My overall point is that there seems to be more inflammation and food intolerances (which may or may not be the same) associated with plant based foods. Just my impression.

[AdamWW]

Fair point, therefore refined grains and sugars may be bigger culprits and worth distinguishing?

My overall point is that there seems to be more inflammation and food intolerances (which may or may not be the same) associated with plant based foods. Just my impression.

Dairy, Eggs, and shellfish are among the top foods people have intolerances against....

[broganoff]

Dairy, Eggs, and shellfish are among the top foods people have intolerances against....

Ok, which is why I said this in my post: "Seems that the biggest culprits for inflammation from animal products would be from dairy". I was also talking about eggs when I said dairy, even though that is more of a grocery store definition than a technical one. Yes, shellfish should've been included in that statement, had I thought of it I would've included it.

I'm not a medical professional, so I could be wrong, but someone can still have inflammation independent of an intolerance, correct?

As far as which diet is more inflammatory, individual variations aside, it's my impression that beef and chicken are typically less inflammatory than most grains. I typically feel more inflamed and have more water weight (which could be from glycogen) the day after eating too many refined grains as opposed to too much beef. Just my n=1 impression.

[AdamWW]

Ok, which is why I said this in my post: "Seems that the biggest culprits for inflammation from animal products would be from dairy". I was also talking about eggs when I said dairy, even though that is more of a grocery store definition than a technical one. Yes, shellfish should've been included in that statement, had I thought of it I would've included it.

I'm not a medical professional, so I could be wrong, but someone can still have inflammation independent of an intolerance, correct?

As far as which diet is more inflammatory, individual variations aside, it's my impression that beef and chicken are typically less inflammatory than most grains. I typically feel more inflamed and have more water weight (which could be from glycogen) the day after eating too many refined grains as opposed to too much beef. Just my n=1 impression.

What do you mean ‘feel more inflamed’?

[Southgeorge]

Dunno, seems that a lot of plant based foods are inflammatory as well. Lots of people have inflammation from grains, gluten, legumes, cruciferous veggies, nightshades, peanuts, etc.

Individual variation aside, IIRC beef is typically one of the least inflammatory foods when averaged across populations. Seems that the biggest culprits for inflammation from animal products would be from dairy.

I agree about dairy being the main culprit. But what about the blood samples they showed in this doc?

I've never met an ugly person who went vegan and became hot, so....

Obviously, I should have worded that differently. I meant like I've never met one with bad skin and they usually look really good for their age. Like the cyclist in this doc and the older dude, ex nfl player.

[broganoff]

What do you mean ‘feel more inflamed’?

"Seem" would've been a better word. I know that I carry 1-2 extra pounds of water weight the day after eating wheat-based carbs the day before, versus eating similar amounts of carbs from other sources. I can feel it in my digestion as well.

That said, maybe that's not inflammation? I dunno.

Otherwise, it's always been my general impression that beef and chicken are at relatively low risk for inflammation when averaged across a broader population.

[AdamWW]

"Seem" would've been a better word. I know that I carry 1-2 extra pounds of water weight the day after eating wheat-based carbs the day before, versus eating similar amounts of carbs from other sources. I can feel it in my digestion as well.

That said, maybe that's not inflammation? I dunno.

Otherwise, it's always been my general impression that beef and chicken are at relatively low risk for inflammation when averaged across a broader population.

water retention from carbs isn't the same thing as an inflammatory response due to allergy or intolerance.... everyone holds more water when they eat carbs, it's just a human thing...

I'm not sure where you heard about chicken and beef and inflammation.... I think maybe you're conflating 'inflammation' with 'tolerance', which is not the same thing.

Chicken and Beef are less allergenic on average than dairy/eggs/shellfish, but less inflammatory? I mean, by what measure?

Inflammation seems to be fast becoming just another buzzword for 'bad', made worse by the countless KETO/Carnivore zealots who want to demonize anything that is contrary to their personal beliefs.

I can't remember the last time carbs made me 'inflamed'.... bloated? Well, maybe if I ate like 6 hardboiled eggs and 1lb of broccoli and then several cups of oatmeal... but that's not because i'm 'inflamed'. That's just gas and bloat.

[broganoff]

That makes sense. Probably a lot of conflation with inflammation, intolerance and allergies. I've always felt that the keto/paleo crowd unfairly threw legumes under the bus because of "inflammation", when they are clearly a healthy choice from a calorie control and nutrient density standpoint.

That said, I'm not sure where the accusations of inflammation with beef and chicken come from, and how they would be any more inflammatory than plant based protein sources. I imagine that they contain compounds linked to inflammation in a lab setting, although you probably say that about a lot of plant based protein as well.

[AdamWW]

That makes sense. Probably a lot of conflation with inflammation, intolerance and allergies. I've always felt that the keto/paleo crowd unfairly threw legumes under the bus because of "inflammation", when they are clearly a healthy choice from a calorie control and nutrient density standpoint.

That said, I'm not sure where the accusations of inflammation with beef and chicken come from, and how they would be any more inflammatory than plant based protein sources. I imagine that they contain compounds linked to inflammation in a lab setting, although you probably say that about a lot of plant based protein as well.

Well, inflammation is a bit like muscle breakdown: there’s always SOME happening no matter what you do. Training breaks down muscle, but it also builds it in the long term and eating protein also builds it. So if the net environment is that muscle building > breakdown... you’re going to grow.

Same thing for inflammation: eating anything is going to cause some kind of inflammation somewhere... the question is whether the net effect of everything you consume is positive or negative in terms of inflammation... and this varies widely per person. Some foods can have more anti-inflammatory effects than others, and vice versa.

[Mrpb]

I agree about dairy being the main culprit. But what about the blood samples they showed in this doc?

I posted an article about it on the first page of this thread. https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...post1591021741

Obviously, I should have worded that differently. I meant like I've never met one with bad skin and they usually look really good for their age. Like the cyclist in this doc and the older dude, ex nfl player.

There's no doubt that eating a lot of vegetables and fruit is good for your skin. It's also a lot harder to get fat on a restrictive diet.

[Wass85]

The narrator has hit back at the Men's Health report stating the bloke who wrote the article is obviously going to shun the documentary because he is advocates meat eating and has books on meat based diets.

The movie was eye opening and if true could see big health benefits for those that do switch to a plant based diet.

I think it's safe to say the athletes on the show achieved most of their goals whilst eating meat, did turning veggie actually benefit them that much or was it a case of not harming them that much?

[Mrpb]

The narrator has hit back at the Men's Health report stating the bloke who wrote the article is obviously going to shun the documentary because he is advocates meat eating and has books on meat based diets.

Here's an objective review written by a vegan with no stakes in the game: https://dieteticallyspeaking.com/an-...game-changers/

The movie was eye opening and if true could see big health benefits for those that do switch to a plant based diet.

The movie makes many erroneous and misleading claims. Here's the truth: eating lots of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes is definitely very healthy. Poultry, fish and dairy however have also been linked to many health benefits. So avoiding them is unlikely to do you any good, unless you have an intolerance. Red meat may not be the healthiest choice, although this is debatable. Processed meat is very likely relatively unhealthy, going by the available evidence

I think it's safe to say the athletes on the show achieved most of their goals whilst eating meat, did turning veggie actually benefit them that much or was it a case of not harming them that much?

Indeed. And how many of them were taking illegal supplements to boost their performance... At least Arnold did.

[Southgeorge]

That said, I'm not sure where the accusations of inflammation with beef and chicken come from, and how they would be any more inflammatory than plant based protein sources. I imagine that they contain compounds linked to inflammation in a lab setting, although you probably say that about a lot of plant based protein as well.

I don't know the fancy way to explain this but from what I understand it's what all our animal based protein is going thru. Being fed, living conditions, and all that. I know there's probably all types of chemicals in our fruits and vegetables now too. Just think what these animals have.

[AdamWW]

I don't know the fancy way to explain this but from what I understand it's what all our animal based protein is going thru. Being fed, living conditions, and all that. I know there's probably all types of chemicals in our fruits and vegetables now too. Just think what these animals have.

Their tortured souls live on, transcending the physical realm and carrying their pain and anguish into our precious burgers...

[Wass85]

If protein from all animals sources is bad then why have the Japanese got the highest life expectancy?

I like the movie but it doesn't really go in to detail about said things and seems very tabloid.

[AdamWW]

If protein from all animals sources is bad then why have the Japanese got the highest life expectancy?

Arguably the worst argument you could make to support eating meat...

[broganoff]

I don't know the fancy way to explain this but from what I understand it's what all our animal based protein is going thru. Being fed, living conditions, and all that. I know there's probably all types of chemicals in our fruits and vegetables now too. Just think what these animals have.

Not all animals are raised that way. Beef cows actually spend the first 2/3s of their life at pasture, then go to feed lots towards the end of their lifecycle to fatten up. I am not sure about dairy cows. Or you can eat grass fed beef, which is arguably better for the planet than farming grains, legumes, vegetables, etc.

I've read that animals are actually better at processing toxins in the environment because they have advanced metabolic and digestive systems, whereas plants can act as bioaccumulators. Although if this is true, you are still better off choosing leaner proteins, because fat tissue could store these toxins. I haven't dug too deep into this, so I could be wrong.

Thanks to modern capitalism and higher consumer standards, it's relatively easy to source high quality animal proteins. If you value that and can afford it, of course.

[broganoff]

Well, inflammation is a bit like muscle breakdown: there’s always SOME happening no matter what you do. Training breaks down muscle, but it also builds it in the long term and eating protein also builds it. So if the net environment is that muscle building > breakdown... you’re going to grow.

Same thing for inflammation: eating anything is going to cause some kind of inflammation somewhere... the question is whether the net effect of everything you consume is positive or negative in terms of inflammation... and this varies widely per person. Some foods can have more anti-inflammatory effects than others, and vice versa.

Thanks. Makes sense.

[Wass85]

Arguably the worst argument you could make to support eating meat...

How so?

[Gxp23]

How so?

Eating meat is not the reason they have such a high life expectancy perhaps? Maybe the rest of their diet which comprises mostly of fish, vegetables and grains will contribute towards it more.

[Mrpb]

If protein from all animals sources is bad...

It isn't.

Why do the Japanse have the longest life expectancy? Hard to say but they tend to consume more fish and less processed and red meat compared than Western populations.

[Wass85]

Eating meat is not the reason they have such a high life expectancy perhaps? Maybe the rest of their diet which comprises mostly of fish, vegetables and grains will contribute towards it more.

That's my point. The documentary claims that all animal protein is bad for you, the Japs eat mainly fish so I think it may be wrong as they live to a ripe old age.

[Southgeorge]

Not all animals are raised that way. Beef cows actually spend the first 2/3s of their life at pasture, then go to feed lots towards the end of their lifecycle to fatten up. I am not sure about dairy cows. Or you can eat grass fed beef, which is arguably better for the planet than farming grains, legumes, vegetables, etc.

I've read that animals are actually better at processing toxins in the environment because they have advanced metabolic and digestive systems, whereas plants can act as bioaccumulators. Although if this is true, you are still better off choosing leaner proteins, because fat tissue could store these toxins. I haven't dug too deep into this, so I could be wrong.

Thanks to modern capitalism and higher consumer standards, it's relatively easy to source high quality animal proteins. If you value that and can afford it, of course.

Yeah, see my issue is paying the huge price increase how do I know for sure it's grass fed and there's no corners being cut? You are basically admitting you think there's an issue with normal beef so why not go vegan?

That's my point. The documentary claims that all animal protein is bad for you, the Japs eat mainly fish so I think it may be wrong as they live to a ripe old age.

A lot of people are pescatarian. I've never seen an issue linked with fish. I'd imagine most athletes are because they can get their protein from it. One salmon filet can get me 30g of protein. Seems a lot lighter and easier to go down than 4 oz of chicken.