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  1. #61
    Registered User Wass85's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Gxp23 View Post
    Eating meat is not the reason they have such a high life expectancy perhaps? Maybe the rest of their diet which comprises mostly of fish, vegetables and grains will contribute towards it more.
    That's my point. The documentary claims that all animal protein is bad for you, the Japs eat mainly fish so I think it may be wrong as they live to a ripe old age.
    Last edited by Wass85; 11-10-2019 at 08:04 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Originally Posted by broganoff View Post
    Not all animals are raised that way. Beef cows actually spend the first 2/3s of their life at pasture, then go to feed lots towards the end of their lifecycle to fatten up. I am not sure about dairy cows. Or you can eat grass fed beef, which is arguably better for the planet than farming grains, legumes, vegetables, etc.

    I've read that animals are actually better at processing toxins in the environment because they have advanced metabolic and digestive systems, whereas plants can act as bioaccumulators. Although if this is true, you are still better off choosing leaner proteins, because fat tissue could store these toxins. I haven't dug too deep into this, so I could be wrong.

    Thanks to modern capitalism and higher consumer standards, it's relatively easy to source high quality animal proteins. If you value that and can afford it, of course.
    Yeah, see my issue is paying the huge price increase how do I know for sure it's grass fed and there's no corners being cut? You are basically admitting you think there's an issue with normal beef so why not go vegan?

    Originally Posted by Wass85 View Post
    That's my point. The documentary claims that all animal protein is bad for you, the Japs eat mainly fish so I think it may be wrong as they live to a ripe old age.
    A lot of people are pescatarian. I've never seen an issue linked with fish. I'd imagine most athletes are because they can get their protein from it. One salmon filet can get me 30g of protein. Seems a lot lighter and easier to go down than 4 oz of chicken.
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  3. #63
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Comprehensive review/critique by Layne

    10k+ words, 60+ references

    https://www.biolayne.com/articles/re...ific-analysis/
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  4. #64
    Registered User broganoff's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Southgeorge View Post
    Yeah, see my issue is paying the huge price increase how do I know for sure it's grass fed and there's no corners being cut?
    Grass fed beef is visibly darker in color and leaner, which also speaks to its nutrient profile.

    As for organic certification, whether grass fed or not, there are steep fines for falsifying certification records. Especially since the records that the 3rd party certifiers use is often the same paperwork filed with government agencies, which opens up the producer to criminal penalties as well if they are caught filing false information.

    Not to say that there aren't cheaters out there, but they are most likely a small minority.

    You are basically admitting you think there's an issue with normal beef so why not go vegan?
    Actually, no, that's not what I said. Besides, I don't want to. There are less healthy versions of everything, whether they be plants or animals. Plants may actually carry more toxins than animals because plants do not have the advanced metabolic/digestive systems that animals do.
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  5. #65
    Registered User Heisman2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Comprehensive review/critique by Layne

    10k+ words, 60+ references

    https://www.biolayne.com/articles/re...ific-analysis/
    That was well written.
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  6. #66
    Gaintaining Mrpb's Avatar
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    Good review by the well respected sports nutrition scientist Asker Jeukendrup.

    I watched the documentary 3 times. The second and third time I specifically paid attention to how the arguments were built, what evidence was used and also what evidence was NOT used. It is actually the latter that is the bigger problem and the first sign that we are dealing with pseudoscience.
    https://www.mysportscience.com/singl...sensationalism
    Last edited by Mrpb; 11-12-2019 at 05:41 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Interesting point by Alan.

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  8. #68
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Interesting point by Alan.

    He nailed it with the entertainment word
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  9. #69
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Layne on Video:

    The power of carbs compels me!
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  10. #70
    Registered User Jcart159's Avatar
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    This whole JRE podcast with Chris Kresser was great at discussing the points/misinformation brought up in the film, but wanted to share this clip because it brought up some really interesting points:



    We often think of vegetables and fruits as the most 'nutrient dense' foods but that's not always the case. Was also news to me on how dense herbs and spices are! I always saw them as flavoring that was void of nutrients.
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  11. #71
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jcart159 View Post
    This whole JRE podcast with Chris Kresser was great at discussing the points/misinformation brought up in the film, but wanted to share this clip because it brought up some really interesting points:



    We often think of vegetables and fruits as the most 'nutrient dense' foods but that's not always the case. Was also news to me on how dense herbs and spices are! I always saw them as flavoring that was void of nutrients.
    There was so much bullchit in that episode and Kresser is a broscience god. They try to even make the argument that eating vegetables and fruit kills more animals than eating meat. Don't get me wrong, he had some valid points, but Kresser is almost* as unscientific as this garbage documentary.
    Last edited by Strawng; 11-22-2019 at 01:30 PM.
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  12. #72
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jcart159 View Post
    This whole JRE podcast with Chris Kresser was great at discussing the points/misinformation brought up in the film, but wanted to share this clip because it brought up some really interesting points:



    We often think of vegetables and fruits as the most 'nutrient dense' foods but that's not always the case. Was also news to me on how dense herbs and spices are! I always saw them as flavoring that was void of nutrients.
    Kresser is.... sadly... kind of a zealot, and I would never rely on him for advice on nutrition.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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  13. #73
    Registered User Jcart159's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Kresser is.... sadly... kind of a zealot, and I would never rely on him for advice on nutrition.
    This was the first I have heard of him. I haven't seen the entire thing but he just seemed to have a point in favor of meat for every point brought up by vegans.

    Something like 7.5 billion animals dying each year due to agricultural farming lol. Just funny points for me to use against vegans who are getting argumentative.
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  14. #74
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jcart159 View Post
    Something like 7.5 billion animals dying each year due to agricultural farming lol. Just funny points for me to use against vegans who are getting argumentative.
    That was probably one of his dumbest arguments. Rogan even points out most of that agriculture is to feed livestock, and a lot of thins in our lives require animals to die. It's about "mitigating" animal deaths, not completely eliminating them. By eating meat, you almost definitely contribute to more animal deaths because the rest of the agricultural processes are truly unavoidable at. So if I do a good thing but can't do it completely perfect it's no longer good? Also, the "animals" that die during harvesting are mostly bugs and worms, which most vegans believe do have lesser value. Cows, pigs, etc. have a more developed nervous system. This is just like his argument that plants might be conscious, so we're all murderers, so we should all just eat meat.
    Last edited by Strawng; 11-22-2019 at 01:52 PM.
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  15. #75
    Registered User Jcart159's Avatar
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    Ya that point made me giggle a bit but I think it highlights an important point in that we need to evaluate entire supply chain when comparing environmental impact.

    It's the same marketing Toyota uses to sell the Prius which takes many years to break even on it's environmental impact when taking the cost of the lithium ion batteries into consideration.
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  16. #76
    Registered User broganoff's Avatar
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    There is some truth to Kresser's statement regarding deaths to animals in vegetable/grain/fruit production. 7.5 billion would not surprise me. Vertebrate (non-insect animal) pests are arguably bigger problems than insects on a broad scale, and certainly are the biggest problem for many producers. This especially includes in season production losses for fruits and veggies, whereas with grains there are probably greater economic losses in storage. You are basically providing a food source for any animal that can jump, dig or fly their way in.

    That said, 7.5 billion is not more than total animals killed for eating. A quick google search for chicken estimates 50 billion/year worldwide, and 300 M cows. Not to mention fish, pigs, goats, etc, especially in the developing world.

    IMO the best points he made were in discussing athletes who went vegan and failed. I'm not a fan of extrapolating anecdotes of elite athletes to broader populations, but as long as we are going to play that game, he did provide some solid examples.
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  17. #77
    Registered User Strawng's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by broganoff View Post
    A quick google search for chicken estimates 50 billion/year worldwide, and 300 M cows. Not to mention fish, pigs, goats, etc, especially in the developing world.

    IMO the best points he made were in discussing athletes who went vegan and failed. I'm not a fan of extrapolating anecdotes of elite athletes to broader populations, but as long as we are going to play that game, he did provide some solid examples.
    Holy chit I had no idea the numbers were that big. Reps on spread. Also yea he shutdown the athlete examples from the doc and the absolutely fuking ridiculous gladiator argument quite effectively.
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  18. #78
    Registered User broganoff's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Strawng View Post
    Holy chit I had no idea the numbers were that big. Reps on spread. Also yea he shutdown the athlete examples from the doc and the absolutely fuking ridiculous gladiator argument quite effectively.
    Haha for sure. In fairness, I'm not sure how you could go about estimating the number of animals killed in defense of fruits and veggies. Even if you were to poll farmers and extrapolate out, I don't think any of them could tell you how many gophers and ground squirrels they killed last year. At least not accurately lol. Probably similar to asking them the size of the last fish they caught. That said, a lot of animals do have to die to provide year round fresh fruit and vegetables.

    As for chicken, yeah, 50B is no joke. Even if everyone on the planet ate the same, that is still less than 8 chickens/year/person. A bucket of 50 chicken wings requires that at least 12.5 chickens be killed, assuming 2 drummets and 2 wings per chicken. Think about how many people put down one of those regularly.

    It's a cruel world we live in, although if chicken didn't want to be eaten, then they should try not tasting so good. Personal responsibility.

    Overall, I like Kresser's approach. I agree that a varied, whole food based diet with moderate animal protein consumption is probably the most optimal diet for most people. I've only heard him on Rogan, so this is not an endorsement of his practice and content as a whole.
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    When Kresser makes claims you can be sure there are some errors in there. He's a chiropractor preaching a Paleo approach in disguise.

    I'm not surprised Joe believes he's a nutrition expert. Joe's got the worst radar for these things.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Layne on Video:

    Great watch, real informative. I especially liked how he mentioned the protein quality of vegan sources in comparison to animal ones, and the mention of meat being higher in essential amino acids. Also the mention of how the people supporting Game changers have products of their own that create conflicts of interest. Solid all around.
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    Registered User broganoff's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    When Kresser makes claims you can be sure there are some errors in there. He's a chiropractor preaching a Paleo approach in disguise.

    I'm not surprised Joe believes he's a nutrition expert. Joe's got the worst radar for these things.
    Agreed and agreed. You can still pick up on Paleo dogma in his statements, regardless of how sound they are (or not). What I found false was when he said that legumes have low nutrient density, and being towards the bottom of the nutrient density scale about grains. However if you look at the amount of protein, fiber, and other vitamins/nutrients per 100 calories of beans or lentils, they actually stack up very well. Especially considering how satiating they are.

    Also, when he said that starchy vegetables were sub optimal, but sweet potatoes were good. What is it with Paleo and sweet potatoes? Lol.

    IMO I still think he did a pretty good job of breaking down the flaws in the documentary, even if they were mostly low hanging fruit. He should have fact checked himself on the issue of animals killed for food- that definitely hurts his credibility.
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  22. #82
    team ketchup AdamWW's Avatar
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    Apparently Garth Davis (a vegan MD) is going to debate Layne on the content of the Game Changers... should be an interesting event.
    The power of carbs compels me!
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    Anybody listen to the follow up debate on Rogan with Chris Kressler and James Wilks? I had a long drive today so I was excited to have a 4 hour episode to help kill the time, but it ended up being pretty painful to listen to. Kressler got caught with his pants down on some of the stuff he said in the last episode that wasn't quite fully vetted, which led to Wilks ground-and-pounding him on those weak points. Not to say that everything Wilks said was correct, as there was certainly some intellectually dishonest debate tactics and statements at play, but he was certainly prepared. It was rough, and I'd be surprised if Kressler ever went on that show again. Lol
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    Only listened to the first hour so far but this Wilks guy is making a really bad impression. In fact I agree with Kresser on most of what he's saying.

    In general I'm wondering though why three admitted non nutrition experts are ranting 4 hours on nutrition. Wth.

    Broganoff are you saying Wilks gets better further on?

    Edit:
    Wilks is scoring points on b12 in the second hour. He got smashed on dairy in the first hour and does not seem to realise it.

    I'll watch the rest too. This is pretty entertaining.

    For everyone: I recommend watching instead of listening only. You do want to see the slides, the facial expressions and body language. The faces Wilks makes are funny.
    Last edited by Mrpb; 12-08-2019 at 03:19 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Only listened to the first hour so far but this Wilks guy is making a really bad impression. In fact I agree with Kresser on most of what he's saying.

    In general I'm wondering though why three admitted non nutrition experts are ranting 4 hours on nutrition. Wth.

    Broganoff are you saying Wilks gets better further on?

    Edit:
    Wilks is scoring points on b12 in the second hour. He got smashed on dairy in the first hour and does not seem to realise it.

    I'll watch the rest too. This is pretty entertaining.

    For everyone: I recommend watching instead of listening only. You do want to see the slides, the facial expressions and body language. The faces Wilks makes are funny.
    I watched the whole thing. Wilks definitely beat Kresser into the ground, at least in a technical sense. By that I mean, some of the corrections made by wilks were more centered on making sure he defended the exact wording of claims in the film vs refuting what Kresser felt the film implied.

    Overall tho, yeah, Kresser just had nothin.
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    Painful to watch though. It's basically the blind leading the blind. How Rogan keeps going on about 'yeah but if it was grass fed everything would be different'.

    Wilks is probably the most science based of the three but he's still missing the plot on many occasions.

    And Kresser not knowing how to read a basic forest plot. Wut?

    Best quote by Wilks: 'I don't even know why we are. We should get some real nutrition experts to talk about this.'
    Last edited by Mrpb; 12-08-2019 at 08:05 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Painful to watch though. It's basically the blind leading the blind. How Rogan keeps going on about 'yeah but if it was grass fed everything would be different'.

    Wilks is probably the most science based of the three but he's still missing the plot on many occasions.

    And Kresser not knowing how to read a basic forest plot. Wut?

    Best quote by Wilks: 'I don't even know why we are. We should get some real nutrition experts to talk about this.'
    Agreed

    I have a lot of respect for wilks on this because he clearly has no formal education on reading studies but bested Kresser easily despite his having masters degrees.

    Wilks carries his own and clearly dedicated a lot of time to research and at least learn the materials. Kresser just say there taking hit after hit... he has nowhere to go.
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Agreed

    I have a lot of respect for wilks on this because he clearly has no formal education on reading studies but bested Kresser easily despite his having masters degrees.

    Wilks carries his own and clearly dedicated a lot of time to research and at least learn the materials. Kresser just say there taking hit after hit... he has nowhere to go.
    Wilks has definitely done a lot of reading. Enough to make Kresser look like a fool.

    Master degree? You mean in acupuncture?
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Wilks has definitely done a lot of reading. Enough to make Kresser look like a fool.

    Master degree? You mean in acupuncture?
    Exactly ;o)
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    Originally Posted by AdamWW View Post
    Agreed

    I have a lot of respect for wilks on this because he clearly has no formal education on reading studies but bested Kresser easily despite his having masters degrees.

    Wilks carries his own and clearly dedicated a lot of time to research and at least learn the materials. Kresser just say there taking hit after hit... he has nowhere to go.
    Also agreed. I thought Kresser held his own in the first hour on the issue of dairy, while Wilks played semantic games (kinda like what you see on online forums lol) to try to catch him in a gotcha. I felt pretty good about how the debate was going at that point.

    Then it went to the B12 issue, and Kresser never really recovered. It definitely took the wind out of his sails. Wilks also continued that momentum through the protein issue, where Kresser got caught with his pants down again. It was sad. Kresser could've at least checked his math on the peanut butter sandwich before stating that in the first Rogan episode.

    BTW is there truth to what Wilks was saying in regards to protein bioavailability in animal versus plant proteins? Is it a non-issue as long as basic thresholds, like what are here in the stickies, are met?

    Another thing that drove me nuts was Wilks pointing out the conflict of interest with industry funded studies, while that entire documentary is funded by a vegan fanatic who is investing $140 million into a vegan supplement company. I couldn't believe that Kresser never called him on it.

    Dude got steamrolled, bad. Although it doesn't surprise me in the world of "paleo" and other supposed "ancestral health experts" that make the rounds in the podcast circuit. Most of these people have no real credentials, and use their own experiences with health, whether that be difficulty losing weight or auto-immune issues, and extrapolate out with their dogma. Kresser is no exception.
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